EuroBasket 2009 Update
by Steve Perrin on Sep 10, 2009 12:54 AM PDT
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PrintIf you're looking for a broad-based, well-informed overview of the EuroBasket tournament, you haven't really come to the right place. You might try The Painted Area for that. No, I'm just going to ramble about the things that interest me, however tangentially, especially MBFGC, Sofo Schortsianitis.
The tournament, as is often the case with these international affairs, has a structure that is more than a little bizarre to Americans raised on the win-or-go-home finality of March Madness. They've played 24 games over the last 3 days, and that has allowed them to eliminate all of four teams, whittling the field down from 16 to a mere 12. Win-or-go-home just became win-one-game-out-of-three-or-go-home.
Even more bizarre, the only team out of the four eliminated so far that actually did win a game, lost the tie-breaker in the final seconds of the game they won. Latvia and Germany faced off in Group B Wednesday, with Latvia holding an 0-2 record while Germany was 1-1. But with a win by 10 points or more, Latvia would go through to the next round based on point differential. With 22 seconds left Latvia held an 11 point lead, which equated to a second round pass - but Andris Biedrins and company gave up 5 quick points to see the Nowitzki-less, Kaman-less Deutschers advance ahead of them. So Latvia finally got a win in the tournament - but had its Baltic heart broken in the process.
Latvia join Israel, Great Britain and Bulgaria as the four teams who have to leave beautiful Poland. (By the way, one assumes that Great Britain will be significantly more competitive when they host the 2012 Olympics with Ben Gordon and Luol Deng on the roster.) In the process, the tournament loses it's leading scorer, Israeli Lior Eliyahu, whose draft rights belong to the Rockets. Then again, why is Israel even competing in the European championship? Doesn't FIBA understand geography?
Now that four whole teams have been eliminated, it's time to play 18 more games to get rid of four more teams. So that's 42 games to cut the field from 16 to 8. Hopefully the organizers are selling a lot of tickets to these games. (And sure, before you tell me in the comments, I realize that the NBA takes between 4 and 7 games for each pair of teams to complete a round, but there's something so foreign about pool play.) When they finally get down to eight quarterfinalists, they enter a single-elimination phase. That's when it gets serious.
Lucky thing for Team Spain, too. The 2006 World Champs, Spain entered this tournament as heavy favorites. Most of their heavy hitters are playing - both Gasols, Rudy Fernandez, Ricky Rubio, JC Navarro - essentially any Spaniard you've heard of except for Jose Calderon and Sergio Rodriguez. Meanwhile, many NBA and EuroLeague names decided not to represent their country this time around. 2007 EuroBasket champ Russia is without Andrei Kirilenko, Germany is without the aforementioned Nowitzki and Kaman, Greece is missing their best guards Papaloukas and Diamantidis, etc. etc. So with an absolutely loaded roster facing a diluted field, Spain figured to be a lock for the Gold. They proceeded to lose to Serbia, struggled against winless Great Britain, and required overtime to finally beat Slovenia. They finished the preliminary round with a 2-1 record that was even less impressive than it seemed. But they're through to the next round, with plenty of time to start playing better and earn a high seed in the quarterfinals.
Three of the four pools in the preliminary round featured an undefeated team: France (with a slew of NBA players led by Tony Parker and Boris Diaw), Turkey (with Hedo Turkoglu and Ersan Ilyasova) and Greece. Greece is likely the most mysterious to US fans. Kostas Koufos and Nick Calathes played in the NCAA, and three other members of the team have NBA experience. But for some reason, despite being one of the strongest teams in Europe year in and year out, Greece has yet to produce a significant NBA player. In fact, believe it or not, Koufos (who was actually born in Canton Ohio) played more minutes in the NBA last season as a little used Jazz rookie than any other member of the Greek team. Many of the top stars from Greece simply aren't interested. The NBA has pursued Papaloukas and Diamantidis for years, but neither wants to make the jump. It didn't help that their countryman, Vassilis Spanoulis, had a miserable experience in his one season in Houston.
Of course one Greek player whom we hope to see in the NBA sooner rather than later is MBFGC, the Clippers' second round draft pick in 2003. As has been documented this summer, he is in the best shape of his career, having lost a seemingly impossible amount of weight, and he's been a handful in the tournament so far (check out D.J. Foster's posts about him over at Clipperblog if you haven't already.) In limited minutes, he's made 10 of 13 shots and 11 of 21 free throws. He scored 11 points in 14 minutes against Macedonia, and 16 points in 15 minutes in a start against Israel.
I watched his 6 minute first quarter stint in the team's second game versus Croatia. Statistically, this would have to be considered his 'off' game. He was a mere 1 for 2, and a dismal 2 for 8 from the line and finished with 4 points. But let me tell you - this guy is an absolute force on offense. When he was in the game, Greece went to him literally every trip. Despite the presence of Mario Kasun (formerly of the Magic), Croatia was forced to double him every time. I would not say that Sofo handled the double team perfectly, but he handled it well, ringing up one assist while I was watching. The guy is simply huge and commensurately strong - but what sets him apart is that he is startlingly quick for a guy that size, with almost flawless footwork on his post moves and tremendous hands. Check out the slide show of him on the Eurobasket site. Look at his hands on the basketball. That's the same basketball they use in the NBA, folks. That ain't some kid size ball - it just looks like it his massive mitts.
Is he just beating up on inferior competition? In a word, no. Not that any centers on Macedonia or Israel have NBA resumes, but the simple fact is, this is the European Championships. This is a big time international tournament, that features NBA centers Andris Biedrins, Marc Gasol, Marcin Gortat, Primoz Brezec, Nenad Krstic, Ronny Turiaf and others - and none of those guys are shooting 77 percent or averaging 26 points per 36 minutes. Sofo stands out - even in a tournament featuring a handful of starting NBA centers.
It's too bad he doesn't get more minutes for the team. There appear to be several reasons for this. For one thing, Greece's best player is probably Ioannis Bourousis, who also plays center. Oh, and they also have Koufos and Andreas Glyniadakis. So they're just deep at that spot. (Incidentally, MBFGC has the same issue on his club team - Bourousis and a couple other quality bigs also play for Olympiakos.) He also has a tendency to get into foul trouble, and one wonders if his conditioning is limiting his minutes as well.
It's also possible that some of the other holes in his game are forcing him to the bench. He's a machine on offense, as his 77% shooting and 31 points in 43 tournament minutes will attest. He's actually a surprisingly good defender, though certainly not a shot blocker. But he's always been a terrible rebounder for a guy his size and his free throw shooting has always been atrocious. As it is, one strategy for defending him is simply to foul. When he consistently shoots 75% from the field but 50% from the line, it's the lesser of evils. If he could improve his free throw shooting, he would be even more of a handful.
It will be interesting to see as the tournament progresses and the competition improves how Greece uses Sofo. Their next couple of games against Germany Friday and Russia Sunday shouldn't provide too much of an obstacle for either Greece or MBFGC. But the game against France and Ronny Turiaf next Tuesday could be a nice test. And from there, it's on to the elimination phase.
As we've discussed, the Clippers wanted to use Sofo in Las Vegas this summer but their request to do so was denied by FIBA as he's still under contract to Olympiakos. With a roster spot available and a reasonable buyout on his Greek contract, it's not impossible that he could come to the NBA this season, a dream that Citizen Zhiv won't let die until the season begins. But don't count on it. This is the final year of his Olympiakos contract, so there's no buyout if they just wait another season. More importantly, with Chris Kaman, Marcus Camby and DeAndre Jordan all on the roster, it makes little sense to add another center, even a big fat Greek one. But if he can stay in shape all year and avoid injury, I expect it will be a priority for the front office to get him into a (very large) Clippers jersey a year from now.
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I love the opening line
Steve, I enjoyed your summation of the tournament so far. I haven’t really been keeping up with any of it, aside from catching a few stat lines of Sofo every now and then. I am glad to see that he is playing effectively on the offensive end. It’s kind of funny, because just like his weight, my interest in him has gone up and down like a yo-yo. I totally thought that it was not meant to be (him joining the Clippers) when he tipped the scales at 400+ lbs. Now that he’s trimmed down and is looking like he’s in the best shape that I’ve seen him in, the interest has perked once again.
I agree that it would be better if he came next season as opposed to this year. He’d be stuck on the bench if he came over early. If he comes over next season, Camby and Smith are both probably gone, so there will be more opportunity for him to fit into the rotation. He’d only add to our young menacing front court rotation with Blake, DJ, Kaman & LeBron (a guy can dream right?). I badly wanted him to come over after Brand went down, but maybe it’s better that he reached rock bottom and is battling back. With the sad state that this team has been in the last 2 seasons, I think it would have pushed him over the edge. Like our players, organization and fans, he also is embarking on a new found hope on the road to redemption. It seems to all be aligning at the same time, so maybe it all worked out for the best (the injuries, disappointing seasons and Sofo’s weight-gain all leading to a promising future that we’ve all longed for).
If you want to nitpick about geography, then I simply can’t let this outrageous error slide.
“He scored 11 points in 14 minutes against Macedonia the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM), and 16 points in 15 minutes in a start against Israel.”
Fixed.
Yeah...
I can’t bring myself to use FYROM. I’ve mentioned in the past that in a prior life, I worked on World Cups 1994 and 1998. One of the big applications I designed for FIFA was a database of historical world cup results. But designing the data structures to take into consideration all of the geopolitical ins and outs was a nightmare. And of course, this was directly following the dissolution of some of these big entities like the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia. So does any country inherit Yugoslavia’s World Cup history? And who decides?
My lazy use of Macedonia is particularly egregious since the reason they’re called the FYROM is to distinguish them from the region of neighboring Greece known as Macedonia. But FYROM just always struck me as silly.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Sep 10, 2009 8:11 AM PDT up reply actions
Roster Slots
Keep the dream alive!
Nice post. It does seem, SP, that you watched the wrong stretch, going off of DJF’s liveblog of the game against Israel. But we’ll get to see how Sofo fares in the next few games.
Just to reiterate for the record, the zhiv Sofo theory/“dream” is based on the idea that he could be on the squad and do an impersonation of 08-09 DeAndre Jordan, with the idea that he might be useful and productive in 09-10. Moving from Greece, not to mention being fat/gigantic and named Sofo, will require a significant adjustment, and why not get it started. Perhaps the process might get started simply by bringing him to training camp, but that might involve the buyout and be more complicated than the summer league approach that didn’t work out.
So one question is, has DJordan moved up, or does he still have last year’s DJordan spot? Maybe somebody else can figure this out. It’s really a Brian Skinner—Craig Smith—Steve Novak question. Novak is Novak, and of course he’s not even signed, so there’s that.
The thing is, Skinner was ahead of DJordan in the center rotation last year, as we got to see when Kaman was down, then Camby, etc.: it really took quite a massacre for DJordan to get onto the floor at all, unfortunately. So it’s hard to say that Craig Smith. an undersized PF, is taking the Skinner slot. At this time last year I suppose we were talking about the versatility of Skinner, his ability to back up both the center and PF positions. But that’s just the way it is, I guess. Smith presents an option that the Clips simply didn’t have last year. But wait a second—I’m forgetting my old pal Paul Davis! There’s another guy who was playing in front of DJordan.
Help me out on this, while I go and take a gander at “Sophocles: Poet and Dramatist,” by William Nickerson Bates, which happens to be sitting on the shelf across the room…
Wrong stretch
That was kind of my point. I watched Sofo for arguably his 6 least impactful minutes of the tournament so far – and I thought he looked incredible! Imagine if I’d seen when he was playing well? Actually, I think you can watch the replays on ESPN360, so I could watch the others – but I’m going to wait for some new action.
He won’t come to camp without a guaranteed contract. So it’s not really an option to have him in camp, then send him back to Greece.
The fact is, the ‘big’ rotation (4s and 5s) is, at present, thinner than MDsr usually starts the season with. With Novak unsigned (and not really a 4 anyway, but that’s a different story), there are only five bodies at the big positions. MDsr started last season with seven bigs (again, including Novak) – Kaman, Camby, Davis, Skinner, Thomas, Jordan and Novak. Of course, there’s the question of multi-position players – is Tim Thomas a 3 or a 4 (or a zero)? I think seven is too many – and obviously the way the point guard ranks have been wracked the few years, it would have been nice to have another one of those around.
I would feel differently on this subject if I thought Sofo was going to get huge minutes at Olympiakos. Unfortunately, he probably isn’t. They have Bourousis, they have other guys, they just seem content to play him 10 minutes – which is astounding to me. If he was getting 30 minutes per night in Europe, I’d say that experience is better than playing 4th center for the Clippers. AT 10 minutes per night, I’m not so sure.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Sep 10, 2009 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions
Question for Steve and Zhiv
Would it be possible, or practical, for the Clippers to bring over Sofo midway through the season? If Camby and his expiring deal get moved around the trade deadline, it would make sense to try and bring him over. Technically, if the Clippers suddenly needed Sofo, a buyout could take place halfway through his season in Greece, yes?
by D.J. Foster on Sep 10, 2009 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions
Don't know
But the idea raises some very interesting questions.
In my current Go Greek! mode, I would say that Camby’s expiring deal and its trade value is an important, big reason to sign Sofo now. If the Clips get in a position to trade Camby (or Kaman, for that matter), all of a sudden they’re a little thin at center, although Griffin could take that spot I suppose. So the Clips would need that 6th big (not counting Novak) in case a good deal presents itself heading towards the deadline. Having Sofo on the roster would mean that the Clips wouldn’t have to trade big-for-big, and they could make a trade of big-for-wing or big-for-small/capspace.
I would add that trading Kaman is perhaps more likely than trading Camby. Kaman is really going to be in the spotlight during preseason and the first 20 games. If he’s flaky and flippy, get him out of here. I’d say that there’s about a 25% chance that he’ll be decent/good enough, although I’m really pulling for him to step up.
The question here is whether it’s more likely to trade Kaman for nothing, basically, to get rid of his deal, or to make a trade with Camby. In both cases, a deal is more likely for bad reasons: the Clips are playing below par. But in the Kaman scenario, it could just be that Kaman is playing poorly, while the team is doing well. In the Camby scenario (it’s hard to see Camby playing poorly, although he might be banged up), it’s more likely that the Clips would be moving him because they’re not getting the wins and they have an opportunity to get a player/s that would improve the team. But a Camby trade would also take the Clips out of next summer’s free agent market.
Camby’s status is deeply intriguing, especially from the Club Optimism point of view, where the Clips play great, make the playoffs and do significant damage, and Camby plays an important role—as he presumably would, since he’s good. What happens then? High class problem, that’s what.
by citizen zhiv on Sep 10, 2009 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Zhiv's answer is solid
He made the important point, which is to look at why the Clippers would be making the trade deadline move. Most likely, a Kaman or Camby Feb trade means the Clippers are out of the playoff race. It doesn’t negate adding Sofo, but there’s also no great hurry. Yes, minutes might be there for him, but no there’s not a massive NEED for center depth because, hey, we’re out of the playoffs, let’s get more ping pong balls (worked out well last season).
As for whether it’s possible, I can’t tell you how the FIBA/NBA rules would view it because it don’t know. I do know that it is rare in the extreme for a player to start the season in Europe and finish it in the NBA, and there must be a reason for that, right? The only example I can think of is Krstic last year, which I suppose proves that it’s possible – but I seem to recall that his Russian team was in dire economic straits, and that may have been why they agreed to it. (I can’t seem to verify that, so maybe I’m wrong on that point.)
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Sep 10, 2009 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Perhaps I’m oversimplifying here, but is your position is that Kaman is expendable since the Clippers have DJ and Sofo? That seems way too optimistic and short-sighted. Bringing in Sofo to add insurance if the Clips trade the 35 year old expiring contract who’s more injury prone than Kaman makes sense, but I would caution against unloading Kaman after the first 20 games if he’s not Kaman 2.0.
by Michael White on Sep 10, 2009 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Unloading Kaman
the idea of moving Kaman is fraught with complexity. If he plays well, we won’t want to trade him. If he plays poorly, there won’t be any market for him. But in the LeBron dream scenario, there’s not enough room under the cap without moving SOMEONE, and mathematically that someone is most likely Kaman or Baron.
Is he ‘expendable’ because of DJ and Sofo? Like you say, that’s very optimistic. BUT, having said that, it may be easier to sell LeBron on a team of Baron, EJ, Griffin and DJ than Telfair, EJ, Griffin and Kaman.
The best case scenario is we get a healthy Kaman 2.0, with a new and improved outlook on life and a new best buddy in Blake Griffin – then it’s high class problem time.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Sep 10, 2009 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Why not move him even if he's playing well?
That is, if Sofo also is playing well.
I agree with you...
In fact, the preferable time to move him is when he’s playing well, when his stock is high. That’s the good problem to have. If he has to be moved in a fire sale, it’s a bad day.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Sep 10, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions
If Griffin works out like we think he will
We might not need Lebron, assuming EJ and BD are playing well.
I want to see something from Lebron that he’s interested before even entertaining the thought.
Good point
LBJ tossing a bit of respect out to the Clips would be a necessary step. Again, the Clips have to play well and win games to get things started.
by citizen zhiv on Sep 10, 2009 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Other than wearing Yankees hats
Lebron has never brought up the topic of other teams unless asked. Someone would have to actually approach Lebron and ask him about the Clips, and even then he’d probably say something generic like “they have a nice team with some good pieces”
Komplexity is Kaman's middle name
Let’s leave “if he plays well” to the side. I wish that we could genuinely expect that Kaman will play well, but it has been such a long strange trip, that there’s no way to predict what’s going to happen. Obviously we’re hoping for the best.
So let’s go to “if he plays poorly, there won’t be any market for him” side of the question.
It would be nice to think that if you can trade Zach Randolph, you can trade anybody, but sadly that isn’t true. The fact is that Zbo puts up numbers, gives you a low-post option, his deal expires in 2011, and he’s a good fit on a team with low/zero expectations in Memphis. (As a “qualified fan” of Zbo, I gotta say that I’m deeply intrigued by the Grizz now with the Iverson deal. All of a sudden they have a really good “placeholder” team that should win some games. Different topic though.)
“Mediocre to poor” Kaman is a contrast: he doesn’t give you consistent production, he gets paid a lot of money (not as much as ZBo, but still a lot), and his deal expires in 2013. So as much as Zbo seemed untradeable, he really wasn’t, but Bad Kaman goes into the overpaid stiffs category, where guys really are impossible to move.
But big men are big men, and there’s a reason why they get these big deals. Legit 7 footers who can walk and chew gum are a rarity, and very few can run and jump and occasionally put the ball in the basket. Thus it becomes a question of just how badly Kaman plays, assuming he’s going to play poorly. Will it still be good enough that he could credibly fill the role on a different team? The important thing here is for the Clippers to determine if he is playing well enough for their needs, for their roster and expectations and their future. There’s a line somewhere, but in typical Kaman fashion it’s hard to see it.
With Camby, more reliable and consistent, on the roster, and DJordan in the background, there are certain similarities to the Zbo-Blake Griffin situation. Is a mediocre Kaman getting in the way of the progress of DJordan? Kaman will get plenty of minutes and opportunities in the first part of the season (assuming he’s healthy), but how long do you allow him to be inconsistent and only semi-productive?
Another wrinkle is the supposed “fact” that Kaman was shopped around during this past offseason. We heard a fair number of those rumors, with the commentary that there were no takers for either Kaman or Baron Davis. But a lot of that discussion quieted down after the Zbo trade. And I think we have to assume that if Kaman was indeed available, the Clips were hoping to actually get something in return. In the trade-Kaman-at-all-costs scenario, the idea is that he is being dumped, coming off the Clippers books, and they have no expectations about getting anything back.
As always, I’m one of Special K’s biggest fans. I love the boat, the trucking company, the movie watching, the right-handed southpaw, the brain-that-goes-too-fast, the whole package. Okay, I’m not crazy about the guns. But I’m hoping for the best. It’s just been so long now, years and years, that it feels like we have to be closing in on some sort of conclusion. The Clips are on the rise, and Kaman is either in or he’s out.
by citizen zhiv on Sep 10, 2009 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm with you on the Memphis Grizzlies
There will of course be those who say that there is not enough ball to go around between Mayo, Iverson, Gay and ZBO, but I think its a really interesting team that could definitely win some games this season.
What if Kaman's playing well and the team is still hovering around .500?
It happened with the Suns last year (though they were over .500). They underachieved despite a rejuvenated Shaq. Does anyone else think that Kaman’s playing style doesn’t mesh well with the rest of the Clips? I mean, other than CMDSr.
Great answers guys
It’s interesting to hear the different opinions about Sofo. I feel like it would be mutually beneficial to the Clippers and Sofo to bring him over, as long as there was a clear path to playing time. LIkely, that won’t happen unless Kaman or Camby get moved, or one of them goes down with a season ending injury.
It’s all likely a moot point. Commenter Rod over at Clipperblog says that Sofo’s buyout is 500,000, and that Sofo has publicly stated he’d like to play another year in Greece.
I knew the buy out amount
The buyout is reasonable, but would be a lot for a half year of service. I had not heard that Sofo had gone public about a preference. Of course, the other significant item about his public statements, especially considering the overall aversion that Greek players seem to have toward the Assoc., is that he’s always maintained that he wants to play in the NBA eventually. Next summer seems like the time.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Sep 10, 2009 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions
A Blow to the Dream
The public statement stings a little bit, I gotta say.
And all along, it has made more sense for him to stay another year, of course.
I’ll quibble for a moment with the “clear path to playing time” statement. That’s what I keep pitching against. I don’t think he needs a clear path to playing time this year. I think he needs a year on the roster with little or no playing time, like DJordan had last year, to prepare him for a “clear path” season in 1011.
by citizen zhiv on Sep 10, 2009 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions
On Camby´s status
I think the trading value of Marcus Camby is being over-estimated.
If the Clippers are in the chase, he´ll be playing his last year as a Clipper.
If the season goes to trash, the first scenario that comes to my mind is the Clippers waving Camby like they did with Sam Cassell. No contender is going to trade for him giving away anything that has genuine value. At his age, they would only pick him up on the cheap.
The second scenario would be trading him as an expiring contract, receiving a longer contract in return. In this case, the hope here is getting a disgruntled star asking for a trade, that can bring some value to the team. Has happened before but not very likely.
By the way, I want the next Stanley Roberts (Sofo) in Clipperlandia! We have tradition on big players.
Am I the only Clipper Fan in South America?
by edu_argentina on Sep 10, 2009 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree about trading Kaman - IMO he would become expendanble as I said below
And the Clipers could either try to go for LBJ or get another good player now in an area of need. I don’t think that the Clippers will need Kaman with Griffin, Sofo and Camby.
Interesting wrinkle
Kinda depends on Sofo, however. With Camby leaving, having just DJordan doesn’t seem like enough.
Kaman plays well AND the Clips trade him. Gotta think about that one.
Obviously it’s great if it’s the linchpin that helps them make a serious run at LBJ. And you could throw in what they might get for him—maybe a draft pick, or as you say, another good player.
by citizen zhiv on Sep 10, 2009 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Go back and watch him destroy EB - no question the guy can play in the NBA
If Sofo plays well we wouldn’t need Kaman (we probably don’t need him anyway). Regardless of LBJ
NEED might be strong
But the Clippers just basically went through a season without Kaman. The result wasn’t pretty.
Assuming they are both healthy/not fat (seems fair to compare them at their best given their recent histories) Sofo still has a lot to prove at the NBA level. Handling an undersized PF playing under foreign rules that even boggled Tim Duncan isn’t really enough evidence. At his best, there is no question that Kaman is an NBA starting center.
Sofo and DJ have to prove before Kaman becomes expendable.
by John R on Sep 10, 2009 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
The best and closest outcome is that Kaman steps up and rises with Griffin tide. He can be a legit NBA starter—he just has to stay healthy and play like one.
DJordan and Sofo have a long way to go. Griffin, Gordon, and Jordan are all really young, and Sofo is really Greek and can be really fat.
by citizen zhiv on Sep 10, 2009 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions
At some point,
You need to make a call. To me, Kaman is not someone to be counted on. And he wasn’t the only reason the team had only 19 wins last year. I’m tired of talking about potential with him. He’s not worth anywhere near the money he’s getting paid.
Sofo may have alot to prove but he’s clearly an outstanding talent. If you watch Sofo play, you would see that he’s much quicker and stronger than most PFs and C’s he’d be facing wherever he plays. That’s one of the reasons they call him Baby Shaq. He also has a good sense for the basket. The rules had nothing to do with EB’s inability to handle him.
I need to make a call?
How bizarre.
At any rate.
And he wasn’t the only reason the team had only 19 wins last year.
I never claimed that. But last year was a good look at the Clippers minus Kaman. If he is dumped for nothing and Camby does not return, well you have the 08-09 Clippers – Randolph + Griffin. So yeah. Whatever the reasons, you don’t improve simply by dumping Kaman.
I’m tired of talking about potential with him.
Who is talking about potential? It is sort of funny that you are comfortable talking about potential with the players you do want though. Again, at any rate…
He’s not worth anywhere near the money he’s getting paid.
In a DOWN year last year he averaged over 14 and 9 on 53% shooting. That’s not “potential”, that’s actual. You’re right. He’s probably worth much more than he is getting paid.
Sofo may have alot to prove but he’s clearly an outstanding talent.
Self-contradictory. He averaged less than 5 and 2 last year in the Greek league. THE GREEK LEAGUE. Yes, by all means let’s dump an NBA pro 7 footer who has averaged 15, 12 and 3 blocks for someone who is CLEARLY an outstanding talent because he averaged 4.4 and 1.8 versus lots of people who can’t make the NBA.
“If you watch Sofo play, you would see that he’s much quicker and stronger than most PFs and C’s he’d be facing wherever he plays.”
4.4 and 1.8. Third on the depth chart on his Greek club team. He can’t even win the starting job there. So except for the 2 centers he is behind on his own team in Greece, yes, clearly he has an insurmountable physical advantage.
“That’s one of the reasons they call him Baby Shaq.”
My guess is the #1 reason “they” call him Baby Shaq is lack of imagination. Same reason they call Hugh Jones Baby Shaq. The #2 reason is probably his frequent FT struggles.
“The rules had nothing to do with EB’s inability to handle him.”
Proof? Is there a particular reason you are focusing on his semi-final performance and not his finals performance for that tournament? For the myopic, his finals line versus Spain was 2 points on 1/2 shooting with 3 fouls 4 turnovers and NO rebounds in 7 minutes.
Then he got fat and was never heard from for three years.
My call? Bet on Kaman.
The world apparently revolves around John R
The term “you” didn’t mean “John R”. I guess he’s been waiting for an opportunity to strike at me. Unfortunately, it’s another “whiff.”
Camby should return. The team should resign him.
John R and I have different ideas of the meaning of the term “production.” If a player is constantly hurt, and when not hurt cannot be counted to take charge, and is constantly in a funk, and otherwise can’t be counted on, then pure stats don’t matter very much. 14 and 9? Over what – 20 games? Great. Wow.
Sorry, Kaman’s not worth the money. I know that’s hard for John R to admit since that fat contract is on MDSr.
If Sofo comes here and if he can play like I think he can play then yes I’d take the opportunity to dump an underperforming, overpaid center. You can’t just look at stats in limited minutes to make the decision either way. If Sofo fails ultimately, then you have Jordan, Griffin, Camby, and a whole lot of cash to try for LBJ or to do something else.
Just watch the guy play. Anyone who wants to see how good he can be should watch video of the matchup against EB.
Seems like John R hates Sofo.
Kaman is a sucker bet. Not surprising who’s ready to get suckered. Again.
Marcus Camby is a more injury prone player than Chris Kaman.
Throughout Camby’s career he has played in 757 games out of a possible 1066 which is 71.01%. Chris Kaman has played in 385 games out of a possible 492 which is 78.25% of the time. Marcus Camby is going into his year 35 season, Chris Kaman is going into his year 27 season.
Running off Kaman and resigning Camby wouldn’t be the move I’d make.
by Michael White on Sep 11, 2009 8:21 AM PDT up reply actions
Understand
But playing time is not the only issue for me.
Seven versus Six
Thanks.
I think I get it now—and there does seem to be an available spot.
08-09: Kaman, Camby, Davis, Skinner, Thomas, Jordan, Novak.
09-10 equivalents:
Kaman – Kaman. Kaman has to be better this year, right? Last year at this time Kaman had just finished exploring his German identity.
Griffin – Camby. Continue to believe that Camby missing training camp and preseason was the first domino in the 0809 massacre. Healthy Camby through camp, preseason, and crucial first 20 games will make a big difference. But the main thing to remember is that Camby was on-the-fly FElton replacement. Will Blake Griffin be better on opening day than Marcus Camby was in street clothes, having missed all of October? The answer is a thousand times better. Camby, when he was available, played virtually the entire season as the backup center. Could discuss Zbo here, but will demur.
Camby – Davis. So it turns out that the real 0809 equivalent to 0910 Camby is… Paul Davis. Jeez. And Paul Davis, coming off major knee surgery. Even I gave up on Davis3 pretty quickly, and so did MDSr. Pretty substantial upgrade, no? Also worth noting that Camby can play C/PF in the same way as Davis3 except, well, he’s actually very good.
DJordan – Skinner. With injuries to Kaman and Camby and the weak play of Davis3, the “3rd center” BSkinner became the defacto backup. This is obviously another exciting upgrade, showing that the Clips have some great options with their bigs. We got to see DJordan play with BGriffin in summer league, and it was pretty good.
CSmith – TThomas. Going into 08-09 we convinced ourselves once again that TThomas was vaguely acceptable as a backup PF who could spread the floor. Then he was injured in the preseason, as a sweetener, before becoming the opening day PF starter, allowing us a flashback to the 0708 nightmare. The moral of this story is that for the last two years the Clips have not opened the season with a credible starter at PF, and the massive upgrade happens when the backup is actually the backup. Also worth noting, again, that the original 0809 plan was for Camby to be the starting PF (or some Camby/Kaman defense/offense hybrid), and Camby (or Kaman) as a backup PF is still an option.
Novak – Novak. Novak just needs to be signed and be Novak. And as SP notes, “that’s a different story.” Worth noting that Novak was buried on the bench for quite a long time in 0809, even with all of the injuries. 0910 Novak, if he’s on the roster, will be more of a known quantity, fan favorite, and deadly shooter who can turn a 10 pt lead into 20 in less than a minute, with the right matchup.
Sofo – DJordan. So there it is! No one in the 0809 DJordan slot, while Sofo is rumbling and stumbling through Eurobasket.
I’d be very happy to have Mardy Collins as the 3rd PG (and EGordon as the 4th), to get Sofo a buyout and contract and begin his acclimatizing.
by citizen zhiv on Sep 10, 2009 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions
zhiv is not the only one
Of us with that dream. Sofo would be great in the NBA. I’ve thought that since he manhandled EB and others several years ago. His game reminds me of Nene’s but he’s quicker. He’s also got a personality that I think is marketable. In my mind he would make Kaman expendable.
Can’t wait. Thanks for the Euro update. Keep them coming.
by Jax on Sep 10, 2009 8:34 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
Whoa... awesome thread...
So good, I can’t find anything relevant to add. Incredibly well argued by many of the best ClipsNation posters. A really superior give-and-take and a great September read.
I'm a little late to the discussion....
Lebron James and Sofo?
Talk about long shots. I think a lot of people on this board are suddenly really over estimating this guy (SOFO). Hes a guy who struggles with his weight, as well as with consistent effort. He is a terrible free throw shooter, and is undersized for an NBA C (Actually about 6-9). He is also not known as a defender. A nice game against the USA and Elton is great and all, but seriously, a lot of average NBA players looked pretty good against us in that tourney (see Carlos Arroyo).
Camby is old, injury prone, and has great trade value (and is most certainly gone by next year anyway…..plus, not a good C in my opiniion anyway). Even if Sofo ends up being a solid NBA player (and I hope he does, though I have my doubts) I doubt he is a guy who can be counted on for long stretches in a game. Kaman is true NBA center, like him or not. Until DJ or someone is able to play defense effectively in the post, as well as give you some kind of a post presence on offense, Kaman is not expendable.
If Lebron James comes I could care less who else was on the team…Sean ROoks could be the C for all I care….
Interesting Logic
Yeah, it’s a good thread, and Sofo presents some intriguing possibilities, but it’s important to read between some of the lines. If nothing else, we get to see the uncanny ability of Jax and John R to find ground for disagreement, which is always an entertaining sideshow.
Kaman is still the best option, a productive NBA-center. He has to stay healthy, be focused, and contribute meaningfully to a newly well-rounded squad. But Jax is right, to a certain extent, that we’ve waited long enough for Kaman to stand up. He’s ready to dump him now, or rather as soon as he has a chance to put up the numbers John R quotes for a short stretch, showing his “potential” value, get value out of him and get rid of his deal to generate capspace. It’s a close call. I’m pretty sick of waiting on Kaman, and I’m not sure where my own tolerance line is. But John R is right to say that if we can see 15 and 12 and 3 blocks and 53% shooting, especially for 70+ games, then Kaman is underpaid. Jax is our resident cynic, and it’s hard to muster unalloyed belief in Kaman, that’s for sure. But it should be interesting to watch.
On Sofo, it shouldn’t be said, I don’t think, that anybody is overestimating him. The ceiling is that he might be able to play in the NBA and be a nice backup for DJordan—and we don’t even know that DJordan can continue to improve and become a credible starter. The line of argument is that you can dump Kaman’s deal and use the money to make a max free agent offer for a star to play alongside Gordon and Griffin. A key piece of this argument is that you’d get good value out of Sofo—he’d be relatively cheap. And it goes with the idea that DJordan would be relatively cheap, and you could even resign Camby for a lot less money that there is on the books right now. But it definitely shouldn’t be taken to suggest that Sofo is overestimated or an essential piece.
As always, especially in September, there’s just no way to know. The part I like, however, is breaking down the options and looking at the possibilities. I really like being reminded of Kaman’s bursts of productivity. And it’s fun to see a slimmed down second round pick from a million years ago come back to make some waves in Eurobasket and become at least worthy of some lively discussion.
Excellent summary of the thread
Think I’m on the same page with you and most others here, that at least for now, Sofo is an interesting option who could provide some frontcourt depth but whose potential really shouldn’t be extrapolated out beyond that, especially considering that frontcourt depth has been the extent of his use to Olympiakos. We’ve watched him from a distance for so long that he seems more like a mythological creature (Schortianitis the Giant) than an actual player.
However, on the Clippers would MBFGC become DJ’s backup or Griffin’s?
My impression of Sofo right now is that he’s a younger version of Brian Skinner with potential for bigger things. And I’d expect the Rhino to be his competition on the Clippers right now more so than DJ. Rhino has a proven NBA track record, while Sofo has size and potential. Both are bruisers with colorful nicknames (at least on this blog in MBFGC’s case). Interestingly, both of them seem to be relatively poor rebounders. Perhaps that limits the usefulness of having both of them on the team together?
I’m not sure that bringing in Sofo really factors into any decisions about Kaman. Sofo seems like a completely different player than Kaman, Camby or DJ, but he might be a good complement to them all. Sofo and DJ might become an excellent backup, but it’s very difficult to imagine a scenario where Sofo somehow makes Kaman expendable.
If I was in CMDSr’s shoes, I definitely would not make any more major moves until seeing how this team fits together and seeing who shows up to play / bounces back from last season. Baron, Kaman and Thornton all have a lot to prove this season, and I’m looking forward to watching them do it.
I’s be thrilled if Sofo became the same kind of player as Nene, and in that case perhaps a DJ/Sofo combo could one day man the center position for the Clips. That would be quite a payoff from a pair of 2nd rounders. But just signing Sofo and getting any kind of positive production from him would be a happy development. Hope he continues to ride the fitness wagon and avoids injuries.
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