The Far End of the Bench - Why the Clippers Could be Good this Season
There's a feeling of potential about this Clippers team. In fact, when I see four out of five HoopsWorld writers predicting second in the Pacific (i.e. ahead of the Suns, who won 46 games last season) and the fifth predicting a .500 season (i.e. a 22 game improvement over last season), I actually start worrying about expectations getting too high for the team. Let's face it - the Clippers have never responded well to high expectations, particularly in 02-03 or in 06-07. But that's a subject for another post.
With the signing of Steve Novak on Friday, the roster is more or less set. There are 13 players with guaranteed contracts, and although MDsr has generally had a preference for starting the season with 14, he has in the past gone with 13. At any rate, it's doubtful that any signing would be of major significance. At this point they may just invite some players to camp and keep one of them around to start the season - Nik-Caner Medley, anyone?
The top of the lineup is formidable on paper, but it has arguably been true of many editions of the Clippers that their starting lineup was impressive - in fact, one could certainly have taken the position (and some did) that last season's team had plenty of talent to begin the game. Eric Gordon is clearly a talent upgrade at the shooting guard, but Cat Mobley was no slouch, and was probably a more complete player than EJ is at this point in his career. And obviously Blake Griffin has as much physical ability as anyone to enter the league in years, and is a natural power forward as compared to Marcus Camby - but it's difficult to argue that this pair of 20 year olds replacing savvy vets in the starting lineup can justify a belief that the team could go from 19 wins to 40 plus. Obviously the future is bright with such great young talent, but is it realistic to have high expectations this season?
It occurred to me today that it's really the other end of the lineup - the 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th and 14th guys - where the big improvements are for this team. Going back through the last four Clipper rosters, there's really no comparison.
The 14th guy - Obviously this is an empty roster spot right now, so I can't very well make the case that this player is better than the last guy on other recent teams. Given MDsr's history, one would assume that he'll fill this spot with a veteran big - an Aaron Williams or a Brian Skinner. For the last two seasons, you'd have to say that this spot on the roster was Paul Davis. In 06-07, it seems that MDsr began the season with only 13 (something I did not recall until I was researching this post, so maybe he'll consider 13 this season). Before that in 05-06 (the year they made the playoffs), the 14th man was Boniface N'Dong. Guess what? Both Davis and N'Dong are available. Seems like we won't have to do much to do as well or better, if you catch my drift. Nik-Caner Medley looked impressive in Summer League - he's at least as interesting as Boniface N'Dong.
The 13th guy - For simplicity's sake, let's call the13th man the third string point guard. Last season it was Jason Hart, the season before it was Dan Dickau, and before that it was Daniel Ewing, stretching back to the playoff team. Lo and behold, once again, all available as unsigned free agents. Quelle surprise. If the Clippers do decide to sign someone, they might go with another point guard. But for now, the third string point guard is Mardy Collins, so we'll call him 13th on the roster - Collins is not a great player, but his versatility makes him useful, and I think we can all agree that he's better than Hart, Dickau or Ewing; he's certainly taller.
The 12th guy - In an attempt to continue comparing apples to apples, let's call this player the third string wing player. Last season it became Ricky Davis, though he wasn't nearly so low on the depth chart when the season started. Before that it was Ruben Patterson, and before that it was Yaroslav Korolev for two seasons. It's Ricky Davis again this season, so let's call it a wash. The team has not gotten a positive contribution from this roster spot for years, and I doubt they'll get anything this season. If Ricky is suddenly healthy and able to contribute, it's all gravy.
The 11th guy - Because MDsr does tend to carry a lot of bigs, there are usually two of them buried at the end of the bench. This spot is for the second one. Last season it was Brian Skinner, before that it was Aaron Williams for two seasons, and on the playoff team let's loosely say that this was Walter McCarty. This season it's DeAndre Jordan. Can we all agree that DeAndre Jordan is an infinitely more interesting 11th man than Brian Skinner, Aaron Williams or Walter McCarty? For one thing, all those other guys were in their 30s, while DJ just turned 21. Then there's the simple fact that Jordan has a world of talent. Jordan may or may not contribute a lot this season; he's still raw, there's little doubt of that. But I think it's safe to say that fans would much rather see a talented 21 year old project than a 30-something has-been/never-was.
The 10th guy - I'm going to have to call this a wild card position, simply because over the last few years there's no consistency to the position of this roster spot. Last season it was arguably point guard Mike Taylor, and the season before that it was also a point guard, Brevin Knight. In 06-07, the 10th man was probably Paul Davis, which is making me start to realize why that 06-07 team was such a disappointment (Davis was a rookie at the time, so I suppose we had high hopes for him, but in retrospect we should have realized just how paper thin they were). On the playoff team this was James Singleton, a decent player, which is part of the reason that that was a good team. This season this slot belongs to Steve Novak - a very useful specialist who, it must be noted, was more like the 8th man on last year's team.
In fact, let's recognize that on the current roster, four of the Clippers' bottom five were on the team last season and were as high or higher in the rotation at the time. Jordan, Novak and Collins are all young players and hopefully improving - but they're in the same place or lower on the depth chart because players like Blake Griffin and Craig Smith and Sebastian Telfair and Rasual Butler have been added. In Jordan's case, we'd like to think he'll be a lot better than he was, and his Summer League performance may foreshadow a breakout season. Collins is a versatile player capable of playing three positions, and having a big guy who can run the point is a welcome change after watching Brevin Knight and Dan Dickau and even Andre Barrett. Novak is a specialist who is among the best in the NBA at what he does - even if you don't need him often, it will be nice to have him in those situations when you need him. In other words, at this point, Ricky Davis is the only player that looks like dead weight - a decided improvement over the ballast heavy rosters of the recent past.
Here's one way to look at the lack of quality at the end of the LA bench in recent years. In the last four seasons, by my count 10 players have occupied the Clippers' final four roster spots, 11 through 14 - N'Dong, Paul Davis, Hart, Dickau, Ewing, Patterson, Korolev, Skinner, Williams and McCarty. Those ten players left the Clippers, and nine of them were never heard from again - they have yet to play for another NBA team. Only Hart made it onto another roster - for 36 minutes with the Nuggets last season, and it looks like his NBA career is now over as well. 10 players, and 36 minutes of post-Clippers NBA minutes between them. Let's face it - those guys were terrible.
Obviously it helps to draft well. Yaroslav Korolev was taking up a roster spot for two seasons as a massive first round bust in 2005. Thornton (first round 2007), Gordon (2008) and Griffin (2009), by way of contrast, are all likely to be starters on opening night 2009. The Clippers also gave two seasons of opportunity to Daniel Ewing and three to Paul Davis, second round picks who haven't proven to be worth a roster spot on any other team. In that sense, although we were a bit perplexed that the front office waived a player as full of potential as Mike Taylor, as least they didn't waste time on him.
So looking at the roster from the bottom up, it's pretty easy to see why this season could be a lot better for the team. Obviously the last three seasons have all featured more than their share of injuries. When you look at the players that were consequently forced onto the floor (Jason Hart started 22 games, Brevin Knight started 39 games, Brian Skinner started 21 games, etc.) it's not surprising that the final resutls were so dismal. Poor depth and multiple injuries is a lethal mixture. This season, at least three of the bottom five spots are significantly upgraded. Let's hope that the injuries are kept to a minimum - but if the Clippers do suffer a normal amount of adversity, the players being asked to step in should be much better able to do so than in recent seasons.
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Very well thought-out ideas, I like the change of perspective of analyzing our depth. I think that the front office did a great job this off season by making all those critical moves. While we are probably not going to have injury problems like last year’s, it’s good to know we have skilled players on the roster who can step in and contribute in an effective manner. I see the Clippers finishing 7th-9th in the West.
Sounds like you are forecasting that Skinner is not going to get picked up this year. If so, big mistake on his part to opt out…
Also, wondering if a similar analysis of the second unit is in order… actually, it feels to me like that is where the real difference potential exists, as opposed to here.
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein
by Another son of Mike Smith on Sep 14, 2009 7:39 AM PDT reply actions
Yes and yes...
I think Skinner made a mistake. But he certainly could get picked up still. I cheated a little and worded it “they have yet to play for another NBA team.” Skinner and Hart might land on a roster (though I doubt they’ll play barring injuries). Davis, Ewing and Korolev were all in Vegas, trying to find a team, but they won’t. Patterson may be the biggest surprise on the list – he went from a career high 2500 minutes in 81 games in 06-07, to 327 minutes in 20 games for the Clippers, got waived and has not been heard from since.
And yes, it’s worth examining the second unit, although that gets a little tricky – since the wing rotation is likely to be just EJ, Thornton and Rasual, there isn’t a true second unit – I think the primary rotation goes 9 deep (which is why the 10th man is on the list above). But of the 4 coming off the bench (assuming Griffin is starting, which seems safe), three of them (Telfair at the one, either Thornton or Butler at the three and either Kaman or Camby at the five) were full time starters last season, and even Craig Smith got 31 starts. That’s a quality 9 man rotation.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Sep 14, 2009 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions
Really Good Post
Very welcome, an interesting topic during the long-lasting lull. I tried to get started along similar lines in a thread somewhere, but this is classic SP: clear, on point, going the extra mile on background. It’s just the thing that’s wanted to start a discussion. And overall, of course, the main point is very well-taken.
One quibble, per usual: I can’t agree that Paul Davis was the 14th guy last season. Wasn’t that DJordan? Even though Davis3 was coming off a major injury and he was later waived, at the beginning of the season at least he was much further up the depth chart than Jordan, and it’s probably worth trying to figure out what his status was relative to Brian Skinner. I’m not sure how your roster breakdown proceeds from here (the apples-to-apples approach is great), and if the 4th (or 6th, counting Novak) big is the 8th man, but the fact is that through the first half of the season, more or less, Davis3 and Skinner were both in front of DJordan on the depth chart. Unless I’m wrong.
Don’t know if all of this was skewed by the training camp injuries of Camby, or if the later injuries mess it all up. And every time we go through this, there’s the carom caused by the trade of Tim Thomas for Zbo, followed by Kaman’s injury, and then the games missed by Zbo and Camby.
Hate to mess with such a carefully designed breakdown, but it seems to me that DJordan was in the #14 slot last year, expected to be the least ready to play and to get the least number of minutes. Davis3 might have been that guy in 0708, but he was moved up and played ahead of DJordan early in the season. I’m not sure how Skinner fit into it all exactly either—if it were me, I would have started him at PF instead of Tim Thomas, until Camby was ready to come back. But CMDSr had such great success with TT in 0708 as a starting PF, and he was coming off a preseason injury, so he got the starting slot. Or was GMMDSr showcasing TT as a starter (and his gaudy 3pt%) in order to move him and bring in a PF (ZBo)? Maybe C was livid that GM was forcing him to start TT, who knows?
I struggled with it
You’re of course correct that DJ was 14 at the beginning of the season last year. And Novak was probably 13. After all, despite Camby starting the season hurt, DJ wasn’t even on the active roster on opening day – he was, by definition, number 14 at the beginning of the season.
The apples to apples thing drove some of the decisions – it’s just a lot easier to compare PG to PG, big to big. There’s also a wink and a nod to ‘potential’. If you’re burning roster spots and game minutes, especially while missing the playoffs, it makes much more sense for those things to go to 20 year old DeAndre Jordan than to 32 year old Brian Skinner or even third year, post knee surgery stiff Paul Davis. Do Skinner and Davis provide more tangible on the court in the here and now? Possibly. But that doesn’t mean they should be there. Playing DJ is investing in the future. So while I’m not in MDsr’s head, I can justify sliding DJ up the priority chart (if not the actual depth chart) based on his potential. There were many reasons to play DJ ahead of Skinner or Davis3 – even if it didn’t happen. Regardless, slotting DJ and Novak in lower just pushes Davis2 and Davis3 and Skinner higher into the rotation, which just further illustrates how bad the bench was last year.
The same might be said for Korolev in earlier editions of the team. He was young, and there was an incentive to get him on the floor. Turned out that he was just plain bad. So he was probably 14 on those teams, but he gets the 12 slot for ease of comparison and based on ‘potential’ (that turns out to have been non-existent).
Bear in mind that using this method of the last 5 guys, we didn’t even get to Josh Powell in 07-08 or Singleton from 06-07. Taking into consideration the injuries, well over half the 07-08 roster was occupied by guys who flat didn’t belong in the league.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Sep 14, 2009 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Mike Taylor is a LAC spy?
Do you think MDSr maybe waived Mike Taylor so he can go workout at other teams and then re-sign him back with vital info?
CMDsr: so what did they say?
MT: they said i went to fast and turned the ball over before we could set the play…
(haha, but really i would like to see MT come back)
Nik-Caner Medley!
Nik-Caner Medley definitely deserves a camp invite. He was pretty solid in Summer League.
'Cause how you play, is how you'll be remembered. PLAY LOUD!
by CLiPPz WeRD 12 on Sep 14, 2009 11:49 AM PDT reply actions
I would say the biggest improvements are in slots 7,8,9
Butler, Telfair, Smith are all very viable weapons and should impact the team greatly.
7,8,9 last year were our 10,11,12 guys this year.
Exactly
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Sep 14, 2009 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions
There's no point in analyzing anyone past #10
Coaches don’t often use a rotation past that number. They’re just backups for the backups. Whether they are better this year than prior years don’t matter, because the team is already in trouble if it needs to rely on the third stringers. And if they are relying on #10 on, they will not win 20 more games this year. It’s all on the starters and slots up to 9 like Newtybar mentioned.
Nice Post
I agree for the most part, but I hope that DJ has a good year and moves up the depth chart. If MBFGC and Camby don’t work out then we are really going to need DJ to contribute.
In Gordon we trust
9-Man Rotation: minute distribution
This post got me thinking about minutes distribution should the Clipper 9-man rotation stay healthy. Now, obviously, the exercise like the one below has a lot of flaws, and I’m not advocating that only nine guys play all year, but I wanted to keep things simple. So, what if subs were made only every 8 minutes and we only played the top-9? Here are some lineups I could see “us” going with. Would love to hear what you guys think.
Starting 5 (Shooters to open the floor for Kaman and Griffin; good mix of experience and young talent to set the tone)
PG – Baron
SG – Gordon
SF – Butler
PF – Griffin
C – Kaman
Q1 4:00 (Telfair in for Gordon, Thornton in for Butler, Camby in for Kaman – Bassy maintains fast tempo, Thornton helps makes up scoring gap with EJ out, Camby spares Kaman’s brain from overheating and provides defense in the paint with weak-defending Bassy and Thornton now in)
PG – Telfair
SG – Baron
SF – Thornton
PF – Griffin
C – Camby
Q2 8:00 (Gordon in for Baron; Smith in for Griffin; Kaman in for Camby = feed the hot hand on offense and/or exploit whatever matchup problem this lineup presents)
PG – Telfair
SG – Gordon
SF – Thornton
PF – Smith
C – Kaman
Start of the 2nd Half (same as the beginning of the game)
PG – Baron
SG – Gordon
SF – Butler
PF – Griffin
C – Kaman
Q3 4:00 (Smith in for Griffin)
PG – Baron
SG – Gordon
SF – Butler
PF – Smith
C – Kaman
Q4 8:00 (Thornton in for Butler; Griffin in for Smith; Camby in for Kaman)
PG – Baron
SG – Gordon
SF – Thornton
PF – Griffin
C – Camby
Totals (MPG)
Baron: 40
Bassy: 16
Gordon: 40
Thornton: 24
Butler: 24
Griffin: 32
Smith: 16
Camby: 16
Kaman: 32
hopefully
they are not playing that many minutes. 40 a night is a lot.
I personally would like to see the 3rd stringers because that means the Clippers are so far ahead after the first 3 quarters that the 4th quarter is quality garbage time for the 3rd stringers (mainly DJ and Novak) to continue to develop and improve. Heck, it could even show positive aspects in Collins and Ricky and raise their market value to more than just expiring contract chips.
Good effort
I like the broad strokes here quite a bit.
Probably too much Kaman, not enough Camby. You never have Kaman and Camby on the floor together—it’s worth remembering that they were the projected starting tandem at the beginning of last year.
The most basic bigs rotation is simple. If Kaman starts, Camby comes in for Kaman, Kaman comes in for Griffin, Griffin comes in for Camby. If Camby starts, it’s the other way around. It won’t work like that, of course. It’ll probably be more along the lines of Camby for Kaman, Smith for Griffin, Kaman for Smith, Griffin for Kaman. But Camby is going to get plenty of minutes. We’ll see how Kaman plays and if he stays healthy, on the floor, and productive. Griffin’s minutes might be somewhat limited for a little while, something like 20-25 rather than 30-35 as he gets acclimated.
Butler and Thornton having comparable minutes might happen, but probably not like this, and I would guess that Thornton will end up getting the bulk of the SF minutes, even if he’s coming off the bench. That’s assuming that he plays well, better than last year, and more effective because there are more weapons on the court. But if he’s a ball-stopper and taking bad shots, his minutes will decrease over time.
Butler will seem some minutes at SG. In fact, if we guess that Butler is the starter, and the first subs are Thornton and Telfair, it’s probable that Baron and Butler will go to the bench first, rather than Gordon. Then Butler would return and replace Gordon, Baron would replace Telfair, and Gordon would sub for Thornton.
The main thing is that you have a solid basic rotation, and haven’t even plugged in solid assets like DJordan, Novak, Collins and perhaps even Ricky Davis.
SP is probably headed towards a post along these lines—we have to assume “the end of the bench” was just first appetizer.
by citizen zhiv on Sep 15, 2009 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions
This makes alot of sense
There is no doubt that Ej, Baron, and Griffin need to lead this team in minutes in order for this team to do well this season.
thanks for the reply zhiv
can’t login for some reason with account i posted with. i agree with your assessment and hadn’t thought about Butler as a 2 really (having not seen him much, or at least not remembering too much about him).
@HVYDRT007 – You’re an idiot. And/Or 11 years old.

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