Some Kaman Thoughts
by citizen zhiv on Sep 18, 2009 10:47 AM PDT
57 comments
Beloved Clipper Chris Kaman is in an interesting position going into the season. Let me say upfront that my hope is that Kaman 2.0 shows up, ready to play, and he leads the team to glory. I love watching Kaman when he plays well--it's probably sweeter because he can play so poorly at times and be so frustrating.
But whether Kaman is good or bad, there are pressures on his situation. His contract is such that it's a nice deal if he's a 15/12 player on a playoff team, and maybe it's even okay if he's a 12/10 player on same said playoff team, as long as he plays in 65+ games and does well in the playoffs. But even so, DJordan presents a lower cost alternative, providing perhaps fewer points but probably the same rebounding, and maybe fewer turnovers, who knows. And Camby is on the roster this year of course. We know all this, and any way you slice it, as nice as it would be for Kaman to be a key cog in a playoff run, the other side of the coin is that he seems expendable, and if the Clips were able to move his contract they would have a big boost in their capspace and be positioned as a major player in next year's free agent market. Again, we know all this.
What I don't know are the best or likely or even possible destinations for Kaman and his deal. Are there any? This is in response, in part, to the Zbo discussion, and the memory of how Zbo was untradeable--until he wasn't. With a little research, it really looked like Zbo would be a good fit in Memphis, and then--bless the day--it happened. Good for Memphis, great for the Clippers.
I haven't looked around for potential teams for Kaman yet, so I'm curious to see if anybody has ideas.
And again, I'm hoping that this is reverse mojo, and any effort to figure out how to move Kaman will make him stronger and better and obviously a critical element of Clipper greatness.
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What are you looking for?
Just the straight salary dump?
by John R on Sep 18, 2009 10:51 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I suppose the first step...
Would be to figure out which teams are still under the cap and can take on a salary dump trade.
by banandy on Sep 18, 2009 10:52 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Miami could stand an upgrade at C
How about Kaman for…Quentin Richardson?
by John R on Sep 18, 2009 10:56 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Awesome
That’s hilarious.
Would be even better if the Clips could pull it off before the season starts.
by citizen zhiv on Sep 18, 2009 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
NY would never do it....
But you could trade Kaman for Cat Mobley!
by banandy on Sep 18, 2009 11:14 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Won't Happen
In the spirit of “Zbo should have gone to Cleveland,” maybe Kaman for Ilgauskas. Kind of a mind bender.
by citizen zhiv on Sep 18, 2009 11:19 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Detroit
Seems like a good spot, with Kaman’s Michigan ties and all. It used to be that the Clips would have wanted to trade Kaman for TPrince, and that would still be a nice deal for the Clips, but it doesn’t make them FA players.
Detroit appears to have one nice expiring deal in Kwame Brown for 4m. If you add J Maxiell at 3yr/5m, the deal is at least possible. Maxiell is a nice backup player at a nice price for them. They just signed C Villanueva. They have a weird overlap with RHamilton and Ben Gordon now, spending a lot of money on two pretty similar players.
by citizen zhiv on Sep 18, 2009 11:29 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
More Detroit
They have Ben Wallace and Chris Wilcox on one-year deals, but it looks like you can’t trade for them because they just signed them.
by citizen zhiv on Sep 18, 2009 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Detroit is a mess
Once they realize that CV is not an everyday PF, they may consider moving Prince.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
by mikey p on Sep 21, 2009 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Toronto
What’s Toronto’s story? Do they think have any chance of resigning Bosh?
One thing is like doing sometimes is making crazy trade ideas—within reason, or not— that massively benefit the Clippers. The reason for doing this is that fans and even media for other teams have never been shy about doing it with the Clippers. One very good thing about the GMMDSr era is that it seems like the crazy Clipper giveaway days (if they ever really existed) are over.
Bosh for Kaman and Ricky Davis? C’mon—that’s a win-win, right? Toronto gets a quality center who can play with Bargnini, getting something for Bosh rather than just losing him outright. Isn’t that the argument that people always used with the Clips—get some value before they leave? Let’s the Clips throw in that extra #1 pick, or their own pick.
For the Clips, Bosh makes them an even more legit contender, but he’s also a big expiring deal. You gotta like this idea if you’re a Clipper fan. If you’re Toronto, maybe not so much. But I can’t say that I know Toronto’s plan, needs, and priorities at all.
by citizen zhiv on Sep 18, 2009 11:50 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
if bosh decides he wants to leave toronto next summer...
…any chance toronto sign-and-trades bosh for kaman (and maybe a draft pick or two) so that they at least get something for him instead of losing him for nothing?
by jon y on Sep 18, 2009 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can he play SF?
If not, then why would we pay big money to the guy when we’ve got BG?
by banandy on Sep 18, 2009 5:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because Bosh can play C
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
by JackduhSun on Sep 18, 2009 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plus, Im sure Blake
can learn a thing or two from Bosh.
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
by JackduhSun on Sep 18, 2009 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Destinations
The past rumors have been Dallas, Detroit and Chicago. There’s some logic to each.
Dallas rumors seem semi-related to his ‘buddy’ Dirk, which is a tenuous reason at best. But Dampier is a not threat on offense, and Dallas doesn’t have another center or a low post threat, so Kaman would give them that.
Chicago is ALWAYS in the conversation about post players. They haven’t had a low post scorer since… since…. I guess Elton Brand, unless you count Eddy Curry. Chicago also has plenty of expiring deals, which is of course why they may not want to do this. They could want to try to make a run at Wade in free agency.
Detroit was the rumor this summer, and they don’t have a center to speak of. Plus, Kaman’s a Michigander. From a hoops standpoint, it might make a lot of sense for the Pistons. But I think they’d have to believe they were relatively close with the pieces they have to add Kaman’s contract.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Sep 18, 2009 12:03 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
About Dampier...
If we got Dampier before this season started…would the Clips be on the hook to limit his PT to under 2100 minutes (in order to buy him out in 2010)?
What about if the trade happened during the season? Is the wording such that the cumulative PT has to be less than 2100 minutes (regardless of what team he plays for)?
So, if he played 1500 minutes for DAL and 700 minutes for LAC this season, we’d be very sad?
by banandy on Sep 18, 2009 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don't buy him out if he plays less than 2100 minutes
waive him and pay him $0, even if he played 2099 Minutes and 59 seconds.
War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.-1984 George Orwell.
by tomkanti on Sep 18, 2009 7:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How does his deal work?
Is it a one-year or a two-year deal? Is 10-11 a team option or a player option? A player option that he can exercise if he plays 2100 minutes?
by citizen zhiv on Sep 18, 2009 7:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
His 09-10 is guarenteed. 10-11 is a option that could only be activated by:
1. Play in 3 all star games(cant do) or
2. Play 2100 minutes for the first 70 games of the 09-10 season.
if Dampier doesn’t complete either of these terms, his 10-11 year is fully unguarenteed, waiving cost you $0 and his salary can be used in any trade (including S&T.)
War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.-1984 George Orwell.
by tomkanti on Sep 18, 2009 10:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I would pass on Dampier
at all cost…
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
by JackduhSun on Sep 18, 2009 10:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still like the idea of sending Kaman to DAL for Erick Dampier. Mark Cuban isn’t afraid of spending, and it’s hard to argue Dampier is better than a healthy K-Pax. Bringing Damp over means Camby slides in as the legititmate starter, if for no other reason than to limit Damp’s minutes so he doesn’t reach his incentives. Presto-chango, by season’s end Ericka is a $13,000,000.00 expiring contract. If we can land a star free-agent at the 3, a decent center should fall right into our laps after that.
I also don’t like the sentiment a lof people are expressing saying that BOTH Camby and Kaman are injury prone. Looking back over the past four or five seasons, Marcus has really shed the “CottonCamby” label. Aside from training camp, he was a stud last season, only eventually bailing out because the team was going nowhere. I have no problem going with Camby, DJ, and Dampier as a hostage for this year.
by Gordon for President on Sep 18, 2009 12:46 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Not the plan
Dampier has two years on his contract, so he’s not an expiring deal for next summer. I guess you could say that you’re trying to get him for some portion of this year (before the trade deadline) without much dropoff or needing him, and then you trade him after the season, when he’s an expiring deal.
Better to make sure you’re getting the capspace going in. I don’t know exactly how the incentive plan works, along with the buyout. Even with a buyout, it sounds like a rich man’s game (Cuban) and not DTS at all. The way to make sure he doesn’t hit the minutes is to get him and don’t play him, even keep him off the active roster. Or waive him and start the buyout.
Still, too complicated, and like you’re trying to get something back. The program here is maximum salary dump.
by citizen zhiv on Sep 18, 2009 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its an incentive based contract
So if Dampier doesn’t play 2100 minutes this year his contract expires after this year. But if he manages to play more than 2100 minutes his contract doesnt expire until 10-11. So as long as the Clippers keep him under 2100 minutes he is a huge expiring contract. Btw, since when is Kaman’s nickname K-Pax?
by C's Up on Sep 18, 2009 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Elton Brand once referred to Kaman as K-Pax on camera because “he’s in his own world”.
zhiv, why on earth would I be advocating acquiring Damp if there’s no chance of his contract expriing after this season? Granted, he’s not the usual, straight-up expiring deal, but that final year given him by the Mavericks was basically imaginary from the start. One of the clauses is the final year becomes guaranteed if he appears in three All-Star games between 2004-2009. Everyone knew/knows that was never going to happen barring a cataclysmic act of of God.
This deal still seems very much doable, and we get a serviceable big. It of course only makes sense later in the season, when we see how the team is doing.
by Gordon for President on Sep 18, 2009 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds good
On the ESPN trade machine he’s down there for two years. My bad.
SP had it down as the first, preferred deal from the start.
The good thing about it is that Dampier could even be helpful in the playoffs, if the Clips get that far. But if that were to happen, it would be funny if he was close to hitting his minutes. I wonder if his playoff minutes count.
by citizen zhiv on Sep 18, 2009 7:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well if he plays
2099min 59 seconds or less before the 70th game. we are fine.
he can still total 5000 mins on the season and playoffs and still be unguaranteed in 10-11
…wait is it the 70th game he plays? or the 70th game the team plays?
if its the latter, then if the Mavs have played 10 games and trade him to the Clips who are at 12 games….is that 2 free games that Damp fast forwards on his contract?
by KidJustin on Sep 21, 2009 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Splitting hairs with a union contract isnt a good idea
by John R on Sep 21, 2009 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No the first 70 games of the team he is on.
if he gets traded to the clips at, lets say, 25 games, then its the regural season. If Dampier gets injured in the season for 10 days or more, its all season. depends on the situation that rolls out. Playoffs don’t count to his 10-11 guarentee. No, those 2 games be added as well, but ill have 0 minutes registered, so it will be ok.
War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.-1984 George Orwell.
by tomkanti on Sep 22, 2009 9:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dampier is a stiff.
Rather have Kaman any day.
by HVYDRT007 on Sep 18, 2009 1:40 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Gimme Some Love
Trade the Cave Man for a Beach Boy, Kevin Love. Clippers may have to sweeten the pot, Thornton or returning the conditional pick back to Minnesota. Love would be happy to be back in LA and Kaman would be back with his people in the great white north.
by laknights on Sep 18, 2009 1:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Again
I’m all for coming up with crazy scenarios that are a massive benefit for the Clippers, and this is an extremely beautiful fantasy, although the Clippers don’t really need KLove since they have BGriffin. But this one is a stretch, even for me, and the fault may be in the premise of trying to get something back for Kaman. Love is on his rookie deal, so the Clips would have to find a way bring back salary too. Would certainly be interesting to have KLove join the young nucleus of BGriff, EGordon and DJordan. I’m already nervous, however, because I hate it when I read about other teams hanging out in fantasyland.
The key is to think of Kaman as having limited value, but being a good fit somewhere, and not expecting to get anything in return. Miami wants him? Trade for Quentin Richardson immediately, his 5th team in one summer—a record that should stand the test of time.
by citizen zhiv on Sep 18, 2009 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your kidding? Right?
It would take 5 Kevin Loves to equal 1 Al Thornton and 20 to equal Kaman and AT.
by HVYDRT007 on Sep 18, 2009 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Kevin Love
But I’m a UCLA guy.
Put it this way. Kevin Love is a skilled, savvy pro who is rarely going to make the same mistake twice, and he’s 21 years old. He had a successful rookie season and got extra minutes because of the injury to Al Jefferson, and handled them well. Kaman has been on the Clippers for how long, how many years? 4, 5, 6? Sometimes it seems like an eternity. Love definitely doesn’t have Kaman’s athleticism and height and length. But he’s… well, not just a fairly normal human being, which Kaman is not (and that’s why we love him!) but he’s also the son of a pro and has all sorts of intangibles.
So I’ll tell you what. Let’s say Kaman stops here, with 5 years under his belt. And let’s remember to come back here to ClipsNation and take a look at KLove’s stats when he gets to the place where Kaman has reached today. Let’s look at turnovers, first of all, and then at rebounds, and then at games played. Just sayin. Maybe at this point Kaman can finally put it together, and there’s nothing that I’m hoping for more, but he’s still a major question mark with years under his belt and a big contract.
No real reason to compare Love and Al Thornton. At one point I was hoping that Love could get minutes at SF, but it’s not really going to happen. Instead he has already established himself as a bonafide NBA rebounder.
by citizen zhiv on Sep 18, 2009 8:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Expiring contracts
Kaman would be an upgrade over Brendan Haywood in Washington ($6M). They also have Mike James ($6M) and LeBron stopper DeShawn Stevenson [insert sitcom audience laugh] ($3M), neither likely to be Wizards in the near-distant future.
Utah still needs a taker for Boozer ($12M). But the Jazz may be looking to take less overall salary, not more.
How about Minnesota, with Brian Cardinal ($6M) and Mark Blount ($7M) both coming off the books? Kaman would open the door for trading either Kevin Love or Al Jefferson, with the other starting alongside Kaman. Maybe the Clippers could squeeze yet another pick out of them.
by OhMeOhMy on Sep 18, 2009 1:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Not true. KLove is actually a pretty legit PF coming off his rookie season.
In 25 mins, he averaged 11points 9 rebounds. If given more playing time, KLove can really do some damange. Plus, I like Loves work ethics.
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
by JackduhSun on Sep 18, 2009 6:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
KLove is a legit PF
At what point did I say or imply to the contrary?
by OhMeOhMy on Sep 18, 2009 8:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Confusion
I think it was HVYDRT above, making the comparisons to Thornton and Kaman and Thornton.
by citizen zhiv on Sep 18, 2009 9:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Correct Zhivs
this was suppose to go to HVYDRT from above, but I guess I scrolled down by accident and coincidently his comment was on there anyways. Sorry about that.
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
by JackduhSun on Sep 18, 2009 10:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good one
I like the Brendan Haywood-Mike James deal a lot. Or it would be Haywood-Stevenson, they both work, but if I’m Washington I’d send the more expensive guy.
The Wiz are an interesting trading partner because they’re way over the cap and aren’t coming under it anytime soon, but they also have a lot of expiring deals: Mike Miller 9m; James 6.5; Haywood 6; Stevenson 3.8; Oberto 2, and Foy and Crittenden RFAs I think. They’re going to want a bunch of those deals to come off to save money, but they could take on a player like Kaman who would be a good fit. Nucleus of Jamison-Butler-Arenas with Kaman and Jevale McGee and Blatche as backups, along with Foy and Crittenden. Saves money and makes them better.
by citizen zhiv on Sep 18, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dont want to help our
Wizards anymore than they already have gotten. Comon, Mike Miller and Randy Foye was just added there. Now we’re going to help their nucleus with Kaman? I already see Wizards as a playoff team.. With Kaman, they could possibly even make it to the finals with Arenas.
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
by JackduhSun on Sep 18, 2009 6:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some conditions
The Wiz play in the East. They have to get past Cleveland, Boston, and Orlando. And who cares if they reach that level and compete with those teams. I’ll admit, that if their edge is the amazing play of Kaman, I would be a little disturbed. But the Clipper free agent signing would, I hope, help me deal with my grief.
Miller is an expiring deal and they probably won’t resign him. Foye is an RFA (unless I’m wrong). You like him? Go ahead and make an offer for him to back up Eric Gordon, and see if the Wiz match—assuming that the Clips haven’t already signed an amazing FA for the max before that.
by citizen zhiv on Sep 18, 2009 8:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm,
but with Foye, he’s a 2guard. He can either 1) backup Baron or 2) backup Gordon. He’d probably wouldnt accept either roles; but Im just saying. The way it is now, Wizards can easily let Miller’s deal expire, then sign Foye and apply him into their starting sg rotation. Hm, now that you mentioned Miller being a FA after this season, if Miller is still open after all the big stars have been signed, anybody intrested in Miller??
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
by JackduhSun on Sep 18, 2009 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kaman for Love?
Are you kidding me? I would do that yesterday. Love can pass, rebound, shoot, and not turn the ball over or miss easy layups and actually wants to win.
Kaman is an idiot. I would trade Kaman back for Randolph, too!
by Jerdog on Sep 18, 2009 4:56 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
same old Kaman?
Apart from the one comment from Ralph lawler about kaman working out-have we heard anything new? I find it interesting that in all of his post interviews he says"same old clippers blues" but we don’t see any initiative from him to change our minds. I’d be glad to see him off our roster :)
"Success only comes before work inside of a dictionary!"
by Clipperoo on Sep 18, 2009 9:19 PM PDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
DONT TRADE KAMAN
You all seem to forget how well Kaman played when he had a strong PF by his side. He is a great complementary player that will anchor down the middle. Although I admit he can be turnover happy, he won’t get as many this year since he will have less touches and primarily get his points through put backs and gimmes. You also have to think long term. Camby’s contract expires after this year, leaving Kaman to start and DJ to back up. DJ has also has a similar skillset to Camby at a cheaper price (rebounds and blocks only). I don’t see the Clips resigning Camby unless he does so at a significant pay cut (which he may very likely do).
by bigfish81ss on Sep 18, 2009 9:54 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Actually it might be the opposite
how strong he played WITHOUT a strong PF by his side. The year Kaman was averaging 16-12, Brand was hurt. Before (and after) that strong preformance, he averaged 12/10. Its average or above average. Your call.
And I dont think people are forgetting what Kaman once was. We’re just thinking about what Kaman is; and thats pretty much injury prone, sometimes unmoltivated, sloppyhands, and to machine.
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
by JackduhSun on Sep 18, 2009 10:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jack is right
Kaman played best when Felton was out, that was the season of the mythical Kaman 2.0. While I really hope Kaman can buck the trend and be 2.0 with a good PF I am very skeptical, although I think it may not be the best idea to trade him unless DJ really plays well this season.
In Gordon we trust
by bestclipfan on Sep 18, 2009 11:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
trade with dallas
i read on the golden state blog that dallas is open for a two for one trade that involves Nathan Jawai and Shawne Williams cause they over signed. here’s a three for two trade, kaman and ricky for jawai, williams, and josh howard.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=lt4ddf
this not only gives us another legit small forward, allowing thornton to come off the bench, but we get rid of kaman’s contract, and get 3 expiring contracts in return. if dallas doesn’t want to trade howard (but they do have marion, so they may be open to it) we could take damp’s contract and just limit his minutes. i’d rather have howard, but if we can get rid of kaman’s contract, i say go for it.
by baron davis' beard on Sep 20, 2009 1:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I was just thinking of a Kaman-Howard swap. DAL is dreaming if they think J-Howard can slide over to the 2, that’s not gonna work. They have Drew Gooden, Dirk, Marion, TT, and Howard with only Damp in the middle. Shawne Williams, aside from his off-the-court problems (Hello, John Lucas) has defensive potential, and could take some minutes that would otherwise have gone to Kaman. Al comes off the bench, and Howard is already a damn good starter.
Pull the trigger.
by Gordon for President on Sep 21, 2009 11:47 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and any trade that rids us of Ricky Buckets is an Epic Win!
by Gordon for President on Sep 21, 2009 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don’t know how long you have to keep a player before trading them, but after we got those guys from dallas, we could trade jawai to portland. portland needs some power forwards, and has a surplus of point guards since andre miller came to town. maybe we could get steve blake or jerryd bayless who both have expiring contracts.
or maybe we ship dampy over to washington for mike miller.
all i know is we should get rid of kaman’s contract.
we’ve got a lot of guys who can put up points, and most of those guys are way young. we’ve got a pretty solid bench too. next year, all we really need is a small forward, and a center. i’m hoping camby comes back for a price cut, cause i think he’d be great for blake and d.j.‘s development. hopefully d.j. will be ready to go next year. then re-sign some of our bench, and i think we’d be on the rise. if we aren’t already.
by baron davis' beard on Sep 21, 2009 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gordon for President, Howard started playing as a 2, but then the Mavs org moved him to the 3.
wont matter, he can defend 2’s or else Marion will take on the 2’s.
War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.-1984 George Orwell.
by tomkanti on Sep 22, 2009 9:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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