Western Predictions - Where do the Clippers Fit?
As the season approaches, we'll be flooded with predictions. This team will win the East, that team will fall out of the playoffs in the West, this coach will be fired, that player will have a break out season. It's already started, and it will intensify from here.
ESPN.com today revealed it's experts' predictions on the Western Conference standings (and I use the term experts uneasily to describe any panel that is open-ended enough to accommodate both Kevin Arnovitz and Bill Walton). All in all, with the Clippers slotting in 10th in the cumulative predictions, after the nine teams who finished last season with 46 or more wins, it's hard to get too righteously indignant. 33 wins? Sure it seems more than a little disappointing, and yet it would be a major improvement over 19 wins and 23 wins, n'est-ce pas?
As always, there are complexities here that are difficult to navigate. In the earlier ESPN.com Insider offering on "Off season Buzz" John Hollinger and Ric Bucher introduced their Clippers entry as follows:
On paper, the Clippers look to be a playoff lock, what with a roster of talent that easily surpasses Houston, Utah and possibly even New Orleans. And yet only a fool would count on a postseason berth after they were the NBA's third-lowest scoring team and tied for the second-worst record last season. Granted, the injury bug hit early and thoroughly, but let's face it: Dysfunction was the No. 1 element that undermined the Clippers' season. As it always seems to do.
And while I think reasonable people might disagree with their particularly evaluations of comparative talent (sure Houston, but where is Phoenix, and isn't Utah - with four All Stars - actually one of the more talented rosters?), the approach is the one I prefer. You can't analyze the Clippers in a vacuum - you have to look at them in relation to their competition in the West. The Playoff race is a zero sum game - in order for 8 teams to get in, 7 teams have to miss out.
In that sense, I suppose it's gratifying to know that the ESPN panel ranks the Clippers ahead of last season's other sub-.500 Western teams - it helps to limit the discussion of who is competing for those 8 spots. Having said that, the panel's collective wisdom doesn't see much standings distance in 2009-2010 between Clippers (33 wins), the Thunder (32 wins) and the Warriors (31 wins). So including those three teams in the discussion, we're up to a dozen teams with playoff potential.
Roster of Talent
The Clippers do indeed look talented on paper. You don't even have to pad to make these guys' resumes look good:
- Two time All Star Baron Davis at point guard
- 2008 second team All Rookie selection Eric Gordon at shooting guard
- 2007 first team All Rookie selection Al Thornton at small forward
- 2009 first overall pick and presumptive Rookie of the Year Blake Griffin at power forward
- 2007 NBA Defensive Player of the Year Marcus Camby at center
In addition to that possible starting lineup of NBA award winners, the Clippers still have Chris Kaman, who has when healthy produced All Star worthy numbers, and they also added several players who were fully capable of starting in their prior NBA gigs (Rasual Butler, Sebasitan Telfair, Craig Smith) to add depth. And then there's intriguing second year player DeAndre Jordan. In short, this team goes 9 or 10 deep in talent. And they still have rosters spots, a trade exception, and the mid-level exception to use to try to improve further.
But that chock-full-of-talent roster conceals the single biggest misgiving about the 09-10 Clippers. That is, much of that talent was around last season as well, when the team racked up 63 losses, second most in the entire NBA. Injuries explain some of that - but certainly not all of it. Where are the marquee wins when a healthy roster played well? The team had two wins over opponents with winning records since Dec. 13 - hard to figure how an even similar roster could be talking about the playoffs a few months later.
So which is it? Did last year's team under-acheive massively, putting the fans in the uncomfortable position of arguing that this year's team will be better partly because this year's team will give a crap? Was there some fundamental 'chemistry' problem? If it was all chemistry, then does the addition of Blake Griffin coupled with the subtraction of Zach Randolph fix the formula? Or are the unstable and incompatible compounds (say for instance, the point guard and the coach) still in the test tube?
The Competition
Most experts seem to think that seven of the eight Western Conference playoff teams from last season will return to post season play this season. I'm going to get a little more granular. There are three teams (the Lakers, Spurs and Blazers) who (a) made the playoffs and (b) got better, or at least not much worse - and those three are lead pipe cinches to make the playoffs this year barring catastrophic injuries. The rest of the teams have a looming issue or two which warrants examination.
In order to milk a little more content out of this, I have decided to look at those teams in separate posts over the coming days. For the time being, let's focus just on what it would take to get the Clippers into the playoffs. Can they finish ahead of not just the bad teams like the Thunder and the Warriors, but also of a couple of formerly plus-.500 teams, the Suns and the Rockets?
In a word, yes.
The Rockets are certainly going to be an interesting test case this season. For all of his 'moneyball', super-computer driven stats, Daryl Morey actually build the Rockets in the tried and true NBA fashion - with maximum contracts to two super-mega stars. Sahq and Kobe and a cast of Hollywood extras won three rings for the Lakers at the beginning of the decade - so it's not really revolutionary to build a team around Tracey McGrady and Yao Ming. The only problem is, they can't stay on the court. Either Yao or TMac (sometimes both) have missed significant portions of the last 4 seasons - and this season will be no different. Despite recent mildly positive news for both of them, the simple fact remains - Yao is expected to miss the entire season, while TMac is attempting to return from surgery at the age of 30. Everyone loves all of the Rockets' role players - Luis Scola, Shane Battier, Trevor Ariza, Aaron Brooks, Carl Landry - and inexplicably the were able to beat the Lakers a couple of times with that group. But face it - adrenaline may be able to carry you though a couple of games, but you need some talent over the course of an 82 game season. Role players only make sense when they are, you know, filling roles, around the leading men. With Yao and TMac and Ron Artest all out, there are no leading men in Houston. If they make the playoffs (or even finish with a decent record), everyone in the NBA will be poaching stat geeks from Morey's staff. But it won't happen.
The Suns missed the playoffs last season, but won 46 games in the process. ESPN has them grabbing the final spot this season. It seems as if they receive the honor, not by any implication that the team has improved, but by default. The Rockets are in trouble, and it's pretty damn hard to elevate the Clippers, Thunder or Warriors to that level at this point. But are the Suns really playoff-worthy?
If you take the last 29 games from last season, after Alvin Gentry took over as head coach and after Amare Stoudemire got hurt, the Suns went 16-13. That's better than I would have expected without Amare, quite frankly. Now, you remove Shaquille O'Neal, since traded to Cleveland for Sasha Pavlovic (you read that correctly) and add Amare back in, and you can certainly argue that the Suns get better. After all, Gentry is returning them to the D'Antoni run and fun days, and Amare is obviously a better fit for that system than Shaq. But you have to look at some other factors as well - Grant Hill will be 37 in a month, and Steve Nash will be 36 before the All Star break. And while I realize that the D'Antoni Suns ran up some gaudy win totals with Shawn Marion at power forward, can this team really survive a season Grant Hill starting at the four? Marion has averaged 9.9 rebounds per game in his career - Hill, 6.6.
If you want to play a more traditional front line, who exactly is going to start in Phoenix? Second year player Robin Lopez? Pony tail guy Louis Amundson? Or maybe Channing Frye? The simple fact is, none of these players have shown that they are quality NBA starters to this point. It doesn't mean that they can't do it - maybe they'll step up and surprise everyone - but the simple fact is, after Amare it's pretty desolate up front for the Suns. Now, you may be saying "That's just how it was under D'Antoni and it didn't stop them." Well, not really. For one thing, Marion was putting up All Pro numbers from the four spot, even if he wasn't a typical four. Hill is just not going to do that. And don't forget that Boris Diaw, Kurt Thomas and, yes, even Tim Thomas, provided significant positive contributions to those teams. I just don't see anyone on the Suns current roster who is going to do that, with the possible exception of Earl Clark.
Last thing on the Suns - don't forget that they have a very high payroll and a very parsimonious owner. With Stoudemire in the final year of his contract and Nash and Hill closer to 40 than 30, isn't an 8th seed the last thing these guys want? Do they really want to squeak into the playoffs, get trounced by the Lakers, and then lose Stoudemire this summer as Hill and Nash continue their decline? This is a team that may look very, very different in February than it does now - I would not be surprised if they decide to start thinking about this future sometime in the next few months and opt out of the playoff race.
So I don't find it difficult to make the argument that the Clippers will be better than the Rockets or the Suns. In fact, I think I can safely say that the Clippers SHOULD be better than Houston or Phoenix. Will they be? That's an entirely different question.
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Nicely Done
I was shocked to see Phoenix ranked so high as well. Zero depth and an aging core usually doesn’t equate to playoff appearances.
Win total prediction..
I think the win total prediction is pretty accurate.. I see us winning 34 games.. Anything more than that will just mean that the team chemistry is clicking, and everything is going good!
'Cause how you play, is how you'll be remembered. PLAY LOUD!
Great post!
And timely given how painfully quiet it’s been.
My question is this, you don’t see the Mavs and the Nuggets as playoff locks? C’mon. No way those two teams don’t make the playoffs barring the same “catastrophic injuries” that would knock the top 3 you mentioned out of contention. The Mavs are absolutely loaded with talent and the Nuggets bring back almost the same team that was in the top half of the west.
I think 5 spots are absolutely locked up this year with Utah also a likely lock.
I do think the Hornets are vulnerable though, which could open up 2 spots. But a LOT has to go right for the Clips to leapfrog NO and Phx. I just don’t see it.
I think if the Clips have a good season (where a lot of things break their way, but not everything), they’ll end up as a 9th or 10th seed. Around 41 wins. That’s a very positive season.
DEN and DAL
Are they locks? Pretty much. I don’t disagree with you. But when I think about them, I see issues – more than for LAL, SAS and POR. So that’s why they’re in a different category. Then, yes, UTA and NOH are next. I’ll write about this tomorrow, but for now, think of it this way – ‘catastrophic injuries’ for the Lakers would be something like Kobe and another starter. They can survive any other starter being hurt, and probably two. But Denver? They’re so thin, I just think they could be in big trouble if any number of guys get hurt.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Sep 2, 2009 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Depth
I understand what you’re saying in terms of the difference between LAL and DEN should a non-star starter get hurt. BUT, we’re not talking about reigning atop the conference, we’re just talking about playoffs. Even if any one of the starters on Denver NOT named Chauncey or Melo get hurt, they’re still a playoff team. Maybe a low seed, but those two are good enough to get them into the playoffs.
As for Dallas, they’re definitely not thin. They go a solid 8 deep with Terry, Barrea and Gooden off the bench. They can definitely endure an injury to someone not named Dirk and make the playoffs. Heck, look at last season when they didn’t have Josh Howard, their 2nd best player, for 30 games and still won 50 games.
I think 5 playoff spots are absolutely locked in barring injury to their respective stars. Utah is pretty much a lock as well. That leaves 2 spots to fight for between NOLA, Phx, Hou, LAC and possibly even OKC and GSW.
It’s going to be a dog fight for sure.
Dallas is a lock assuming Dirk and Kidd are healthy. They definitely have talent and depth. I’ll even go as far as to say that they’ll finish 3rd in the West – higher than Portland and Denver.
Don't underestimate the Hornets
Okafor was an underrated player in Charlotte who was held back somewhat by Ray Felton’s penchant for jacking up bad shots. Playing along side of CP, I expect his numbers to improve significantly, and I expect the Hornets to be an improved team. The Hornets are not deep, but a threesome of CP, Okafor and West is solid. As long as CP stays healthy, I’d be shocked if they weren’t a playoff team.
NOH may not make the playoffs.
NOH, spread the team way to thin to have any impact against the elite teams, and most of the bad teams they beat last season will be improved eg OKC, LAC, MEM. The Tyson/Okafor trade was a plus for them but it was negated by ridding themselves of Butler. I see them losing 5-8 more games this season making them a .500 ball club, and falling into the 8/9th slot. Either barely making or missing the playoffs.
HOU misses the playoff and it doesn’t need explanation.
I think the Clips make the 6th seed, ahead of UTA and NOH or OKC, mainly because UTA can’t win on the road, and Sloan’s routine in Utah is dead, a great coach who’s time has pasted.
I actually like OKC this year, if the young talent develops, and breaks out mid-season watch-out.
Another thing about NOH
Getting Okafor will be a plus for them. They are a bit thinner without Butler, but I wouldn’t go so far as to say it negates the Tyson/Okafor swap.
But the big thing with NOH is that I think there is a significant conflict brewing between franchise player Chris Paul and not-warm-and-fuzzy coach Byron Scott. It showed up at the end of the playoffs. Should be interesting to follow.
I wouldn't put us ahead of Utah
Sloans teams are always very good and unless Boozer destroys the chemistry I don’t see this team getting any worse where they would fall out of the 6th spot. As for NOH I see some possible chemistry problems brewing and they may be falling but I don’t think they will fall out of the playoffs either. I really think at best we can get the 8th spot but I would be gladly proven wrong.
In Gordon we trust
Oh ye of lil faith!
I know faith is hard to come by in Clip Land but, if this same Clip roster was a Suns roster or a Mavs roster, we’d all pencil them in for the playoffs with at least a 7th seed. After all barring injury last season the Clips probably have somewhere in the neighborhood of 35-38 wins, I just figure after the roster changes via trades, the draft and getting injured players back the team will be dramatically improved over last year. I think Washington is also and example of a team that’ll be dramatically improved over last year, mainly cause the injuries .
As for NOH, CP3 had great chemistry with Chandler & Butler, and I think they spend a good portion of the first half of the season getting used to one another. Also in the playoffs last year, Denver provided a nice blueprint of how to beat NOH. I know they had a ton of injuries to deal with but I still think some of the basic principles DEN used will still apply.
I just don’t like UTA. Outside of D Will and Millsap, their roster is filled with guys that don’t show up in the big moments. They get stage fright especially on the road. It’s also been reported that the people of UTA are tired of Boozers act, he may be traded before the deadline in Feb. Even with their shortcomings I still have them in the playoff as a 7th or 8th seed. They didn’t do anything this off season to make the team any different or better, which is why I don’t have them advancing in the standings from last year.
Hmm, your right.
But only because Sun’s seem to have a better staff in terms of injury. That could potentially keep Baron from getting hurt and injured all the time. (See Grant Hill -injury prone until this year?!?!?)
Then we look into coaches. Comon, we’re talking about Mike Dunleavy. Can’t we just find someone better? I’d event ake Avery Johnson over him as atleat he has proven success.
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
10th. is better then 15th.
Now we just got to show them we can be in the top 8 in the West come Playoff time.
lakers v. clips 1st round series.
What would that be called instead of “the impossible is the opposite of possible series”? “The arena series”?
Speaking of the lottery
The Los Angeles championship winners vs the Los Angeles #1 draft pick winner.
If we look at it like that, we’re not exactly losers…
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
"the first playoff series ever where one team gets home court advantage (up to) 7 times" =(
by banandy on Sep 2, 2009 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Kurt, the Lakers' blogger
was saying he’d like to see a Lakers-Clippers first round match-up. Of course he would, since he knows the Lakers would win. Wonder if he was wishing for such a matchup in the ’06 postseason?
Baron vs. Kobe in LA
Is just the kind of scenario where Baron thrives. There’s a reason Baron’s always been his best in the playoffs. He’s the kind of guy who can lose focus and get lazy during the course of a long NBA season (not saying this is ok, just stating a fact). But in a playoff series, under the bright lights, with everything on the line, Baron shines.
Especially in his hometown against a guy who he looks up to, I can definitely see Baron going off.
I see this year’s Lakers team as weaker than last year’s team. Having lost Ariza, replacing him with Crazy, and with Fisher a year older. If last year’s Rockets team w/o Yao can take the Lakers to Game 7, I wouldn’t count out the Clips with an ultra motivated Baron (and since in this scenario they’re a playoff team, the other guys must be playing great too).
Agree on every point
There might have been a small chink in the Laker armor if someone had been able to give Odom a better deal and they lost him. Now they will be very tough, and should be able to withstand any problems that Artest might create—and Phil is pretty good with strange birds like Artest. Elite status and professionalism of Kobe and Gasol should drive their excellence, and they should even be able to handle some injuries.
It’s a drag. They might be a little bit weaker, but not enough to really fall down in any way.
by citizen zhiv on Sep 3, 2009 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions
Yea
I’m obviously thinking “best case scenario”. It could definitely work out fine for them. But I tend to think sooner or later Artest will cause problems. It might not be this season, but the guy is signed for 5 years at the MLE. I can easily see him start complaining about salary after a year or two (players don’t seem to care that it’s the salary they agreed to in the first place).
Even when he’s on his best behavior though, how long before his consciousless shot jacking annoys Kobe? The strength of last year’s Lakers team was that NOBODY except Kobe took bad shots. All of them played within the system, filled the role of good soldiers, and let Kobe do everything else. Ariza was the poster child for filling in the gaps around Kobe. Now in Artest they have a guy who doesn’t do well in systems (or in structure), needs the ball in his hands and routinely takes bad shots.
If I were the Lakers, I definitely would have been a lot more patient with Ariza.
As much as I’d like to see a Lakers meltdown via Crazy – I actually think Artest to the Lakers is going to be a big win for them similar to Rodman to the Bulls back in the day.
The only weakness that team has is guarding the elite PG’s. Fisher and Farmar may be fine for now, but they’re probably going to have to make a trade in a year or two.
Can we stop the Artest hate everyone
It’s easy to look at the negative side of every situation and make it suit your argument, while totally ignoring the positives of a situation.
Let’s try the negative approach through Clipper hater goggles.
1. Baron will disrupt team chemistry with his Hollywood Movie Making antics, he’ll be disinterested, and will have numerous riffs with Dunleavy. He’ll be the poison pill that will dismantle the Clips playoff hopes. (Sounds ridiculous when you think of all the positive BD add to the team including leadership, clutch shooting, and playing big in big moments)
2. The BS (Bill Simmons approach) The Clips are cursed! They are essentially the same team from last season, with the additions of Butler and Griffin, with injury prone players like Camby and Davis. They look good on paper but the curse of the franchise will kill their playoff hopes. (Obviously Simmons has an east-coast bias and hates most things outside of BOS, but really do any of us believe in sports curses? )
So to me your negative points about Artest sound equally ridiculous. Yes, Artest can go a little off the handle, shoot shots out of the flow of the offense, and appears to be aloof at times, But he also adds grittiness, a bigger body to handle bigger 3s and 4s than Ariza, a higher scoring average than Ariza, a higher regular season average 3 pt% than Ariza, and a higher career steals average than Ariza. Is he a risk, of coarse he is but so is every move made in the off-season.
One key injury and the Suns are done.
With that said, the Suns will be the Clips biggest obstacle towards making the playoffs. Nash, JRich, Barbosa, Amare, Hill sprinkled with some young role players is definitely potent enough.
So you'd start Robin Lopez?
And back him up with Channing Frye and “pony tail guy”?
What he said...
If the Suns put their 5 best players on the floor, it’s Amare at the 5, Hill at the 4, Richardson at the 3. In fact, that’s what they did after Amare got hurt last year, except of course with Shaq at the 5.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
Barnes also played some 4,
a position he frequently played for Golden State as well. Which sort of explains why people sometimes label him a SF-PF tweener, even though he’s 6’7 and plays on the perimeter (sorry, kind of unrelated)
True...
And Barnes is gone.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Sep 2, 2009 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Surprising;
that Grant Hill actually started 68/ 82 games last season. I literally had to look up the Suns roster to realize you guys were talking about Grant Hill. Sadly, the only Hill that came in mind was Jordan Hill from Knicks.
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
that remains to be seen.
Suns fan chiming in:
we’d really like Fropez to show something, I suspect he is gonna get a chance at the 5 as a starter, because Amar’e sometimes struggles against centers, but he kills PFs and eats their bits after barbecuing them. If it doesn’t work out we might use Frye who is a good outside shooter, and an inch taller than Amar’e to form a tandem of similar players. It’s clear that we won’t win with defense, but hey, we don’t want to!!! (considers suicide after thinking about the Fakers).
If Amar’e plays center, the 4 is going to be either Frye or Clark
Libertarianism is just Anarchy for rich people
Thanks
Fropez looked good in the one Summer League game I saw him in. If he can rebound and block shots, it may be enough. But there are definitely question marks up front.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Sep 3, 2009 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't see the Rockets making the playoffs at all
I think it was adrenaline, will and the Lakers under estimation allowed the Rockets to be so good for that series but as SP says that can’t hold for an entire season. The stat geeks will say it can and will but those who watch the game know that it won’t. As for the Suns I think there star is fading and I think they may be able to make the playoffs but I think we can push them out.
In Gordon we trust
It's happened before - a team consisting entirely of good roleplayers
The 1999-00 Magic: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2000.html
They won 41 games, missing the playoffs by 1 game. Oh, and Doc Rivers got coach of the year.
Intresting find
man that team looks like crap on paper… and its not even like they play good defense..
but when I looked at their record they were .500 team. How far did they make it into the playoffs anyways?
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
Wasn't really a "find"
It was more like, “hmmm, has there ever been a halfway decent team w/o any reasonably good players? oh yeah, Orlando when Doc Rivers was coaching.” It stood out in my mind b/c usually coaches don’t get COY when they miss the playoffs.
OHokay, so they missed the playoffs
nvm then.
Either way, the team seemed to have overachieved…
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
Actually, they DID play good defense
Bo Outlaw was a hustling madman back then, and they also had this guy who was semi-decent defensively who went by the name of Ben Wallace.
If you look at that link, they were ranked 9th overall in defensive efficiency. Sure, a lot of points were scored against them but that’s misleading because they played at a fast pace. This was a scrappy, runnin’ little team (& no, I don’t mean they were little ’cuz Earl Boykins was on the squad).
by FullyClips.com on Sep 3, 2009 11:12 PM PDT up reply actions
In the predictions article,
it mentions that “…some see the Clips winning as many as 50 games…”
For every person who predicted them winning 50, there was someone predicting 16. Or two people predicting 24-25. Or 3 people predicting 27. You get the point. People making the “it’s the Clippers” argument.
It’s akin to Jalen Rose picking last year’s Cleveland-Detroit series to go 6. Or picking Boston to sweep Chicago. Some people are just a step slow regarding these things.
So how many wins should be deducted because Mike Dunleavy is our coach?
http://www.clipperscurse.com/
by ClippersCurse on Sep 2, 2009 8:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Wow
This is where Jax comes in.
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
hopefully
BG’s good enough that they can overcome or ignore the “system”
by Jax on Sep 3, 2009 8:13 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I was looking for a number from you Jax (;
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
He doesn't do predictions
He would be out of things to hide behind.
Of course . . .
I predicted in March 2008 that EB would leave that summer
I predicted that the investigation into NBA referee Donaghy would determine that he wasn’t involved in any conspiracy (contra John R)
I predicted that the team would not do very well last year (contra John R)
I predicted that MDSr would lose the team last year
I predicted that BD would not be a good fit with MDSR’s plodding iso offense
I predicted that the Clippers would underachieve so long as MDSr is coach / GM
And I predicated that MDSr would wear some “interesting” suits
So if anyone’s hiding . . .
New sig
I was looking for a number from you Jax (;
Can't you go bother someone else?
Seriously, how do you do those sigs?
I’ve tried but can’t figure it out
Wow
Im actually trying to figure out why Im being put into this mess.
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
Is your life that miserable?
to find trouble here in this blog?
Mike Smith on Eric Gordon: "The Clippers may have found their go to scorer."
On a second note, I want Novak back!
Too many variables
Will BD be healthy and motivated
Will MDSr change the offense to fit with BD’s style
Will BG be able to step up and dominate
Will Thornton find his bball IQ somewhere
Will Kaman show up to play this year
Will the team just ignore MDSr this year so that they can get some wins
Will MDSr lose the team again
Sorry folks, too many variables to make a serious prediction for how the Clippers will do this year.
Where’s John R’s prediction.
So that's no prediction then
I’m 1/1 on prediction’s this year…
Aw, change the subject
Is the the first or last indication of failure?
Its so hard to keep track, given the number of ways you fail.
Just like the AP standings for college football
These predictions are usually based on last year performances, Clippers only have to perform to prove the critics wrong
One minor clarification
Not sure how it changes your argument (if at all), but …
For all of his ‘moneyball’, super-computer driven stats, Daryl Morey actually build the Rockets in the tried and true NBA fashion – with maximum contracts to two super-mega stars.
I’m pretty sure Morey inherited the McGrady/Yao tandem and didn’t actually sign them himself.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
And to his credit
Used the money he had left to assemble an absolutely incredible set of role players for the cheap. I’d expect him to have a lot more freedom to operate when McGrady’s contract expires in 2010.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
I am a big fan of Morey and like what he has done, but having a bunch of good role players doesnt work then there is no lead player.
http://www.clipperscurse.com/
by ClippersCurse on Sep 2, 2009 8:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Not necessarily true
As long as the system around them is good enough to properly utilize them. Houston still has the personnel to be a top 10 defense, but the question is whether they’ll score enough to actually win games. A lottery pick might do them some good though; the 2010 draft is pretty deep.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
Good point, Prada
And then again, the approaches aren’t mutually exclusive. You absolutely must find the high value, low cost signings if you’re going to fill out a roster with two max players on it.
It’s an amazing test tube – if Houston plays well (especially if TMac isn’t a major factor) then I’ll bow down to Morey – and to Berri and Wages of Win too, for that matter. But I just don’t think it’s gonna happen.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Sep 2, 2009 10:38 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm tired of all these predictions
I’m ready for the season to start.
Safe to say
this is the most optimistic I’ve ever been entering a Clipper season. Even more following the playoff run because Cassel’s age worried me. We are going to make history this year by doubling our win total.
History?
Uh…the Celtics won 24 games in 06-07, then turned around and won 66 games the next season, while winning a championship.
Even if the Clips double their wins, they’d likely miss the playoffs. It’s not really “making history.”
Was thinking about the Celts
24 to 66/championship is pretty amazing. Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, the emergence of Rondo, Perkins playing well, a good bench.
The question for us, then, within reason, is how can you make even the beginnings of a comparison between the Celtic turnaround and the potential Clipper comeback from a tumultuous and pathetic 19 win season. The Clips won’t come close to duplicating what the Celtics did. They didn’t add two experienced, perennial all-stars, like Garnett and Ray Allen. They don’t have a third player of the same ilk, like Paul Pierce, on their existing roster.
It seems as if the Club Optimism goal should be the mythical 50 wins plateau. So what’s different, and how do they get there?
—Adding Blake Griffin. Especially now with Zbo out of the way, BG could be a very high impact rookie. He seems to have the talent, athleticism, and drive to bring a new energy and excellence to the team. If the Clips had an empty roster, it would be a different story. But the team has a number of players who could really benefit from the boost provided by BG, thus helping the team as a whole. He’ll only be able to accomplish relatively modest goals as a rookie, but BG is the Clips’ poor man’s version of Garnett, making plays and contributing production, but also bringing intensity, focus, and intangibles.
—Resurgent Baron Davis. BD was embarassed last year, with a perfect storm of negativity sending his season down the tubes. With something to play for, an understanding with the coach, chasing wins, a strong home record, and a playoff spot, BD is the key to Clipper success. The poor man’s version of Paul Pierce, but perhaps a closer facsimilie than Garnett/Griffin. Get BD to the playoffs, and he could do a serviceable imitation of Pierce.
—Maturing Eric Gordon. Day one starter and a strong all-around force. The poor man’s Ray Allen, of course.
If these three guys all play their “poor man’s” roles fairly well, the Clips might get to the playoffs. What the Clips lack in legitimate stars, they make up for with some very solid pieces backing up this trio. Kaman-Camby-DJordan is a major x-factor, which could turn into a major Clipper strength, overwhelm opponents that are weak in the middle, and produce a number of wins. Al Thornton can score points and be respectable as a starter, and Butler, Smith and Telfair should be solid as backups.
But that seems to be the recipe for a major turnaround, or at least the poor man’s version of the Celtics success.
by citizen zhiv on Sep 3, 2009 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions
Not to diminish the Celtics achievement...
But you can argue that the East was pretty weak overall. Check out the playoff seeds from that year – both #7 and #8 seeds have losing records!
1. Boston Celtics (66–16)
2. Detroit Pistons (59–23)
3. Orlando Magic (52–30)
4. Cleveland Cavaliers (45–37)
5. Washington Wizards (43–39)
6. Toronto Raptors (41–41)
7. Philadelphia 76ers (40–42)
8. Atlanta Hawks (37–45)
I think the better comp turnaround dream scenario would be to look at the Spurs 96-97 season where they only won 20 games due to an injured David Robinson, only to land the #1 pick (Duncan). Next season, they rack up 56 wins and earn the 5th seed.
If the Clips can get 40+ and the 8th seed, I’ll be very happy.
Good comparison
That’s a good reference.
Of course, nobody on this team is as good as Robinson was at that time, and Griffin, as much as I love him, is likely not quite Duncan.
Having said that, I agree with you that an 8th seed would definitely make me very happy. Any Clips fan that says an 8th seed would be a disappointment is delusional. Making the playoffs in any year, for this franchise, is a huge success. Let alone coming off of a 19 win season.
I also agree with zhiv that 50 wins would be a resounding success. I just don’t think this team gets there. There are just way too many variables and question marks on this team. Our best players are either too young or inconsistent. I think that’s the primary problem. This team doesn’t have a rock that it can depend on every single night to produce.
Like I said above, I expect around 40-41 wins and a 9th or 10th seed. Which is a very positive year
"Too many variables and question marks..."
Exactly right. Uncertainty times Clipineptitude equals… well, modest expectations are always a good idea and starting point. Anything with a 4 in front of it would be positive.
They can do better, and they should, at least on paper. They should even have some buffers to guard against minor setbacks. Few teams can withstand catastrophe, and the Clippers are prone to them. We’ll soon get to see how they fare, and what adversity and karma look like this year.
Promises to be fun like always.
What 7 teams in the West are legitimately better than the Clips right now?
There are certainly question marks with this team, but I only see 5 teams in the west that you can actually say are legitimately better than the Clips.
Therefore I see LAC earning a 6 seed in the west with a record of 45-49 wins.
Isn't that the best case?
If five teams are legitimately better (i.e., even to an optimist, they clearly have more talent), to finish 6th then (a) you have to be correct in your talent assessment and (b) the Clippers have to meet your expectations.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Sep 4, 2009 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions
for your consideration
would you consider the 07’-08’ Baron a ‘rock’?
by Takebb909 on Sep 3, 2009 5:44 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
i see this question answered with a simple comparison
lets compare the team we had that made the playoffs, with ourcurrent team. The coach is the same, minus the lead assistant.
2005-06 2009-10
Elton Brand Baron Davis
Sam Cassell Eric Gordon
Corey Maggette Blake Griffin
Cuttino Mobley Chris Kaman
Chris Kaman Al Thornton
Vlad Radmanovic Marcus Camby
Quinton Ross Rasual Butler
Shaun Livingston Craig Smith
Zeljko Rebraca Sebastian Telfair
Walter McCarty Deandre Jordan
Daniel Ewing Mardy Collins
James Singleton Steve Novak *
Yaroslav Korolev Ricky Davis
….which team seems to be better to you? and we then can go from there.
Elton Brand -—————————Baron Davis
Sam Cassell -————————Eric Gordon
Corey Maggette -——————-Blake Griffin
Cuttino Mobley -———————Chris Kaman
Chris Kaman -————————Al Thornton
Vlad Radmanovic -—————Marcus Camby
Quinton Ross -———————-Rasual Butler
Shaun Livingston -—————Craig Smith
Zeljko Rebraca -——————Sebastian Telfair
Walter McCarty -——————-Deandre Jordan
Daniel Ewing -————————Mardy Collins
James Singleton -—————-Steve Novak *
Yaroslav Korolev -—————-Ricky Davis
It's close...
but if we’re honest, EB was all kinds of awesome that year. He averaged 24.7 pts, 10 rebs, 2.5 blks, 1 stl with great shooting %’s.
This alone is a pretty compelling reason to side with the 2005-2006 roster.
I think a better comparison would be...
Sam Cassell – Baron Davis Leaders of the team – it all depends on them first
edge Baron for age/size&stength/athleticism/scoring/motivation(?)
Elton Brand – Blake Griffin “Hero” of the team – hardwork+heart
edge EB, mainly because BG is still considered unproven…and no matter how u slice it..EB was that damn good.
Cutino Mobley – Eric Gordon blanket-type players – consistent/smart/shooter all-around reliable
edge Eric for being as good as Mobley only younger&stronger
Corey Maggette – Al Thornton – THE athlete
edge Maggette – both are/were pretty inconsistent black holes, but at least Maggette knew his advantage…go to the hole and get free throws
Chris Kaman 2.0 – Chris Kaman TBD or Marcus Camby the big
edge unknown – we won’t know until we know what Kaman we have. Between Kaman2.0 and Camby is close but I think I’d have to go with Kaman2.0 – his defense was pretty good that year as well as his offense
Vlad Raddmonovic – Steve Novak* Floor spreaders with size
edge Novak for not being a Space Cadet
Quinton Ross – Rasual Butler 1st wing off the bench
edge Butler – Q is a better defender, but Butler’s perimeter defense is acceptable but his shooting ability is LEAPS AND BOUNDS better
Zeljiko Rebraca – Marcus Camby or Chris Kaman TBD the backup big
edge either MC or Kaman – Rebraca was not/is not that good compared to either of these
Shuan Livingston – Sebastian Telfair YOUNG backup point guard
edge Shuan Livingston – better passer/court vision/size height…too bad he couldn’t be stronger
Walter McCarty – Craig Smith offense off the bench at the 4 spot
edge Craig for more hustle/age
Daniel Ewing – Mardy Collins the reserve guard
edge Collins – bigger, can play more positions, more reliable on defense
James Singleton – DeAndre Jordan the athlete of the bench
edge Jordan – not on Dun’s bad side, bigger, has BG as influence
Yaroslav Korolev – Ricky Davis bottom of the bench
edge unknown – overall career-wise Ricky Davis
06’ Clippers-3 09’ Clippers-8 Unknown-2
Gotta consider consistency
That’s what’s missing in your analysis. Because that team had vets like ET, EB, and Cat, there was a lot more consistency night in and night out on that team. So while EJ is way more talented than Cat, he’ll be hard pressed to put up consistent performances for 82 games the way Cat did. Same with the comparison between EB and BG. EB was our rock that year (and really every year he was here). You knew absolutely that he was going to go for 20/10 virtually every single night.
Youngsters like EJ, Griffin and Thornton struggle with that kind of consistency. And so do emotional guys like Baron unfortunately.
By the way...
Clippers 05-06 did NOT feature Kaman 2.0 – He showed up in 07-08 before he got hurt. 05-06 Kaman was good, but he was better at almost everything in 07-08.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
ahh oversight that was my fault
i kept thinking that the the 05/06 Clippers were the best of the recent times and automatically connected the best Kaman to the best Clippers
anyways that changes the edge between Kaman-Camby to…i’d say Kaman still for age/offense and his defense was acceptable that year
Was going to mention that
But SP beat me to it. We take our Kaman 2.0 very seriously around here.
Quibbles aside, great list, great work, KJ.
Leader: Baron edge, if he plays well. But Sam was a witch.
Hero: FElton MVP year. BG needs to be a contender, but not as a rookie.
Blanket: Gordon major edge. Much better shooter. Gordon combines the efficiency of Maggette with elite level shooting and all of Blanket’s intangibles.
The Athlete: If Thornton stays healthy and takes his play up one notch or more, he’s better than 05-06 Maggette, who was injured for half the season.
Floor Spreader: Radman is more of a complete player, more athletic than Novak, unfortunately, but you can argue about their productivity. Suffice it to say that Radman is much higher in the rotation than Novak, one of the first two guys off the bench. For Novakians, of course, this is a no-brainer, a worthless snowboarder against the best shooter in the league.
1st Wing: Gigantic advantage Butler. But did anyone know that QRoss averaged 20 ppg in college?
The Big: Kaman 05-06 vs. Kaman Unbound. It’s all about the hair, what’s left of it.
Backup Big: Big Z vs. Marcus Camby. Big advantage to Big Z, one of the finest centers of the previous generation. Just happen to be a fan: the length, the delicate inside game, court savvy, rebounding. Clips didn’t get the best of him, and thug Ben Wallace cut him down just as he was coming into his own, about to take Kaman’s job. With a healthy and dominant Big Z the 05-06 Clippers get by Phoenix and then beat Dallas. 29 games 412 minutes. Camby crushes Z, but I’m brokenhearted just thinking about it. Chris Wilcox was the primary backup big until the trade for Radman, though we don’t want to forget Boni and Vin Baker.
Young backup PG: pre-catastrophic injury Shaun. Also heartbreaking. Livingston just coming into his own, played 61 games and 1500 minutes. But he only averaged 6/3/4.5asts, and Telfair should be able to match those numbers—and Sessions could crush them.
Offense at the 4: McCarty was unwatchable, and his ample empty early season minutes matched 08-09 Ricky Davis and make Tim Thomas look respectable, although he played some defense. Smith crushes McCarty.
Reserve Guard: Anybody up for starting a Mardy Collins fan club? You know, Daniel Ewing gets kind of a bad rap, mainly because he wasn’t very good. He’s no Mardy Collins, that’s for sure. I like Collins a lot better than QRoss. QRoss or Daniel Ewing? Just not the kind of question you want to be asking yourself. Worse and worser.
Bench Athlete: A neglected MDSr debacle: failure to use Singleton adequately, and sticking with McCarty ahead of him in the rotation for too long. It turns out that Singleton had limitations, but in the right coaches hands he could be effective. And perhaps it’s ironic that DJordan didn’t play enough in last year’s death march. James Singleton vs. an 09 #2 pick, one of the finest and most promising young centers in the league, embarking on an epic sidekick career with Blake Griffin? It is to laugh.
Bottom of the bench. I must say, this is my favorite, and the fact that KJ has it as “edge unknown” is absolutely hilarious. Battle of the titans. Korolev, we now reluctantly accept, cannot play basketball at all. He completely sucks. And I have been loading opprobrium on Ricky Davis since the 3rd or 4th game of last year, and have seen him as a dangerous cancer, worthless player, and needing badly to be waived. But I have to admit than any version of Ricky Davis is better than YK, right? The problem, of course, is that Ricky Davis can’t play against the Clippers, because he was always phenomenal when he played against them in the past. So whether he’s playing for or against the Clippers, Ricky Davis kills them. And he’s still better than Korolev. Can’t Sofo have this slot?
Kaman's performance depends on PG
Sam got him the ball, in position, and NEVER gave him the ball when he had to back his defender in. Also, Sam was a shooting threat, so his man couldn’t sag off & steal the ball from Kaman after the entry pass. Kaman played much worse when Livingston or Ewing handled the ball. 07-08…Brevin couldn’t shoot, but he at least didn’t give K the ball out of position much.
Baron often gives K the ball out of position, which is an almost-automatic turnover.
does Baron give it to him out of position
or does Kaman just stand in the wrong position/doesnt try to catch it…
last season it was a little bit of both. it seems like Baron should improve on his part. if so…that should mean Kaman improves too.
Good point
“or does Kaman just stand in the wrong position”
but I also remember Sam waving him over, back, etc & if he ever gave him the ball high, he’d run right over and get it handed back. I typically saw Baron trying to beat his man one-on-one then shooting a 3 with the clock running out.
How many games
did Baron and Kaman actually play together?
Sample size is too small and funky. We’ll see what happens. More important for Baron to be good. Kaman isn’t gravy, but he has to step up for his own purposes—the team can do well even if he flakes out. Nothing we’d like to see more, of course, than for Kaman to take it to 2.0, 2.5 or better.
Couldn't have been many
Considering at 32mpg Kaman was only available for about 29 games.
Kaman and Griffin for a full season vs Kaman and Randolph for bits, and Butler over Thornton are your big improvements. Smaller improvements will come from Baron being less fat and Gordon’s natural progression as well as overall improved depth.
Yup
Basic good health is such a big factor. I still believe that Camby’s injuries coming in last year, missing training camp and preseason, were catastrophic and a critical early domino in the meltdown. Next up was the BD and Tim Thomas preseason injuries, and the Clips were badly crippled coming out of the gate, with no idea how to play together.
If both Kaman and Camby are healthy and in good shape through training camp and preseason and make it all the way to the opener, that will be a major boost. Not to mention everybody else staying healthy.
Wouldn't it make more sense to compare the same positions?
Like comparing Elton Brand and Blake Griffin, Baron Davis and Sam Cassell, etc.
by Michael White on Sep 3, 2009 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Player vs. Player comparisons?
It’s not like the 09-10 Clips are playing 82 games vs. the 05-06 Clips. This comparison doesn’t really shed any light on anything.
It’s how we do vs. the rest of the league right now. What does it matter how we compare to that other team?
That Clips team won 47 games. Do you know where 47 wins would have gotten us last season? 9th seed.
It doesn’t matter AT ALL whether this team is better than the old Clips team. All that matters is how we are compared to the other 14 teams in the conference this season.
agreed
but it’s so much harder and more time consuming to compare Eric Gordon with the 14 other guards than just Cuttino Mobely
I guess we saw major success with the 06 roster so and improvement on that brings more optimism…blind optimism since we are not factoring in the other teams, but optimism
i think best to worst would still have Cassell on top
without Cassell we still weren’t a playoff team.
It Will Come Down To Same This Year as In Years Past
Can the Clippers stay healthy?
Yes – Playoffs maybe to the 2nd round or WCF
No – Good chance for another lottery pick

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