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Around SBN: Knicks Beat Lakers With Familiar Strategy

I was wondering why no one had posted this yet, then realized that not a lot of people have insider. So I guess I'll give a summary of what he wrote (btw I'm pretty sure these are very human-based, as opposed to the weird wins-produced predictions from the basketball-reference blog)

2008-09 recap:
He says the perimeter players (outside of Gordon) were crap and although the frontcourt was devastated by injuries, Jordan had a "solid rookie season" and Novak "established himself as a rotation player". Clips were only team in NBA in the top ten in TO rate and bottom ten in FT rate. Clips had worst FG% and worst TS %, leading to the worst offensive efficiency in the NBA. Defensively, they were 26th.

Offseason moves:
Griffin "should give them an All-Star-caliber performer at the power forward spot for the next decade or so." Randolph for Richardson "was the best trade of the offseason."

Biggest Strength: Frontcourt Depth
"The possibilities are endless for mixing and matching..."

Biggest Weakness: Small Forward
"With Baron Davis, Gordon, Griffin and Camby, the Clippers have four-fifths of a superb starting lineup, but it remains to be seen what they'll get from the 3 spot this season. Last year's starter, Thornton, was second on the team in scoring at 16.8 points per game, but it was an empty 16.8 -- his PER of 12.7 was basically identical to his rookie mark, and he made the same frustrating mistakes in his defense and shot selection...The next alternative, Butler, is a fine role player but not somebody you'd be excited to have playing 40 minutes a night...they'll ride it out with Thornton this year and cross their fingers that it works out."

Outlook:
"As a result, the Clippers may find themselves back in familiar territory -- albeit one year later than they expected -- as one of several contenders in the West for the conference's final playoff spot...Ultimately, however, too many question marks remain to comfortably place the Clippers in the conference's top eight...The Clips may not be a playoff team yet, but with a rising star in the frontcourt and a wad of cap space to build around him, they're finally headed in the right direction."

"34-48, 4th place in Pacific Division, 12th in Western Conference" (note: Warriors 35-47, Suns 40-42, Thunder 36-46, Rockets 37-45.)

over 2 years ago Tiny d2s4ui1 6 comments 0 recs  | 

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no way Warriors Warriors go 35-47

I think maybe 30 wins at most.

In Gordon we trust

by bestclipfan on Sep 28, 2009 10:11 PM PDT reply actions  

Thanks

Yeah, I was wondering about this. Don’t have Insider.

Hollinger is going to bet against the Clips until something forces him to do otherwise. He’s trying to be bullish, but he hedges at every step. And that’s probably not a bad policy.

The aggravation here is the 34 wins, while putting GSW at 35, OKC at 36, Hou at 37, and Phoenix at 40.

It seems that Hollinger wants to say that the Clips will compete, but picking them 12th and giving every other remotely similar team the nod, he’s saying they will compete especially poorly.

And it’s kind of funny how his scrutiny of Al Thornton changes. Let’s not let him forget that he thought that AT was going to be a bust because he was too old. He still wants that to turn out to be true, and it’s especially important to him because Thornton is the weak link in the Clipper armor, unless he wants to go after Baron Davis or Kaman. Rather than talk about how Thornton and Butler will complement each other, he makes a strange comment about how no one wants to see Rasual Butler play 40 minutes a game. When you have a starting SF who averaged 17 ppg, isn’t there some middle ground before his minutes are reduced to 8-10 per game?

AT has his limitations and needs to step up his game in his 3rd season, the first year where he’s playing with a deeper, healthier roster. I’d say that here at ClipsNation we appreciate the solid elements of AT’s game, and have hopes that he will show some improvement and be a major asset. We get to criticize Thornton, because we have some appreciation for his talent and effort. Hollinger keeps taking shots at him to make up for his lame prediction that he wouldn’t make it. It’s annoying.

by citizen zhiv on Sep 29, 2009 8:22 AM PDT reply actions  

Rose-Colored Glasses

First, why are you aggravated that he picks the Clippers to win 34 games? They won 19 games last year, and perhaps he doesn’t think too highly of their coaching, plays, etc., and their potential effect on W-L. Would that be an unreasonable opinion? I suspect that this is what he’s implying.

Second, is Hollinger way off base re Thornton? He’s into his third year now and there are very serious questions about him – the same questions that likely caused him to drop to 14th in the draft even though he had great stats as a senior (yes senior) in college playing on a team with little else. I think that good players can play well no matter who is around them. Of course its true they can play better with better players but you should be able to tell regardless. Look at EJ last year playing with, shall we say, not the finest players in the league. It seems to me that many of the problems that I at least associate with Thornton may not be fixable – things like basketball IQ.

Many around here seem to assume that Hollinger hates the Clippers and is stupid, arrogant, etc. Perhaps you just don’t like the fact that he’s not looking at the team through rose colored glasses. Perhaps we should take those glasses off too.

by Jax on Sep 29, 2009 6:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Doesn't mean he's right

You raise some good questions and points.

Your suspicion on coaching and plays and the effect on W-L isn’t unreasonable, and I know it’s your standard position. And you know that my own standard position is that injuries have been a more important factor. You think that Dunleavy is a horrible coach in any circumstances, while I think that he is a horrible, stubborn and overly conservative coach in straightened circumstances such as we’ve seen the last two seasons, and the season previous to those was his fault for overthinking as well. Three bad and virtually unwatchable seasons in a row should add up to an irredeemable coaching situation. Yes, that would make sense. But this is the Clippers.

Dunleavy got really lucky with the Griffin pick and it caused other dominoes to fall, starting with the Zbo trade. Now he has the best potential collection of talent in his tenure as coach, and that counts for something. In terms of sheer wins, this team should match up well with the 0506 team (45+) wins and the lame 0607 team, which still won 40+ games. I know that 34 is a healthy jump from 19, but I would argue that even with a stilted playbook and stubborn coaching, 19 is an aberration that was primarily caused by roster turnover, rookies and young players, and injuries, and 30+ was a reasonable expectation for last year’s team if it had a healthy roster.

When you look at the roster of the Clippers, with its talent and depth, you want to be able to say that it’s a .500 team that should go to the playoffs. Yes, Blake Griffin is a rookie and expectations for him should be reasonable, but the Clippers can back him up with a pretty solid array of big men, led by Kaman and Camby, but also including Smith, DJordan, Novak, and Skinner. When a pundit like Hollinger looks hard at the Clippers roster he has to see a lot of talent. So what he’s doing, and what he has done for the past 4 or 5 years or longer, is counting on something to go wrong with the Clippers. That’s fine, and it has been a smart bet, but it’s okay to call him out on his reasoning.

Put it this way: he’s never going to give the Clippers the benefit of the doubt. In fact, he’s going to do just the opposite. That’s what he does. He is looking for ways that the Clippers will fail. His angle in 0506 was that Cassell and Mobley were selfish players at the end of their careers who wouldn’t be able to coexist, and Mobley’s FA deal would be a drag on the Clips for years to come. In 0607, coming off a playoff run, he was hopeful for the Clippers like many others, and he got badly burned. In 0708, after Liv and FElton’s injuries, he was skeptical about the Clippers draft history, and turned his cynicism on Al Thornton.

Is Hollinger way off base on Thornton? Yes and no. My own view is that he’s not owning his original skepticism about Thornton, when he said he would be a bust. He’s not a bust; he’s a productive NBA player. Is he an ideal starting SF? No. But he’s one of the best players from his draft class. He has done well and been very productive during two very tough, injury-riddled seasons. The rub is about expectations, and the role that a player is supposed to fill. It doesn’t seem fair to compare Thornton to Eric Gordon. Gordon was a potential #2 pick who dropped down to the Clips, to their good fortune. Thornton was a potential #7 or 8 pick who dropped down to the Clips at 14, to their good fortune. Big difference. But both are great picks for the Clippers.

I would have liked Hollinger to admit his mistake, acknowledge what Thornton has accomplished, and then he should feel free to question whether Thornton isn’t still the weak link on the Clippers roster (this says something in itself about a team that he’s picking to win 34 games). But you can tell that he has an axe to grind because he doesn’t consider that there might be a middle ground. “The next alternative, Butler, is a fine role player but not somebody you’d expect to find playing 40 minutes a night.” As I pointed out above, there’s a logic break here. He doesn’t mention that Thornton might make a good 6th man, coming off the bench to provide scoring. And under what scenario is Thornton so bad that Butler ends up playing 40 mpg? My beef is the fact that Hollinger appears to be bending logic over backwards to try to figure out how he was both right all along, and how things will go wrong.

If he is really concerned about coaching and style of play, then he should just say so. I think he knows that Dunleavy can prosper and win games with a strong healthy roster and a team that defends and rebounds.

I like my rose colored glasses, which let me see the Clippers getting a whole lot of wins on their home court and gelling into a highly competitive team. When I have them on, and when Blake Griffin, Baron Davis, Eric Gordon and Chris Kaman are looking particularly rosy, I think I can see the Clippers winning 50 games for the first time ever.

But when I take them off and compare the Clipper roster and dynamic, even with a conservative coaching style and a rookie playing a key role, I have a hard time seeing that GSW or OKC have the depth, talent, and experience to win more games than they will. And a Houston team without Yao for an entire season doesn’t appear too far ahead, nor does an aging Phoenix team that isn’t the same as the ones in D’Antoni era. 36, 37, 38 and 9th or 10th wouldn’t have seemed like another swipe and snub. Reasonable, a bit of skepticism, not too rosy.

I know that a leap from 19 to 34 can seem like a lot, and generous. But it’s not quite as historical and thoughtful as it might be.

But who knows. We’ll see.

by citizen zhiv on Sep 30, 2009 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Good and interesting post

But I think you discount the impact of poor coaching on a team far too much. For example, 06-07 needn’t have happened. MDSr caused that. What other coaches do you know of who through stubbornness, bad coaching, or whatever singlehandedly cause a potentially good team to stay out of the playoffs? While engaging players, calling out the owner, etc.? Come on.

This coach has an historical sub .400 record with the Clippers. Five losing seasons out of six. Last year wasn’t an aberration. Every coach can point to excuses, but the bottom line is that winners win and losers lose.

I suspect that Hollinger isn’t saying it explicitly because he’s not comfortable doing that for professional reasons. Which is similar to the situation Steve is in now with this website (I’ve been thinking about this) and his press credentials with the Clippers. He wants access, and the team won’t grant it if he’s too critical. But at least for Hollinger you must read between the tea leaves. That’s the only reason. And it makes alot of sense for reasons I’ve documented on numerous occasions.

I also think that you’re not being critical enough of Thornton. The fact that he’s one of the best players from his class doesn’t mean very much if the class sucks. Watch the guy play. He can’t shoot the three and he doesn’t seem to be able to work within a team concept. Which was the knock on him in college. Does that make him a bust? Depends on your definition. A PER of 12 ain’t gonna set the world on fire.

I don’t understand your point about comparing where they were originally slated to go in their respective drafts and that somehow it isn’t fair to compare them. First, these are different drafts with different players. Second, Thornton was fourth originally I believe, not seventh, in his draft. Thornton doesn’t have to be a star to EJ’s extent to avoid the bust label, but he’s got to be able to be a starter who is relatively well-thought of to avoid that label. At this point, I don’t see him starting on alot of teams. No good teams.

Re MDSr and what happened this summer – irrelevant.for purposes of analyzing his potential success as coach. The fact that he brought the ingredients to the table doens’t mean he can put them together. His history over two decades suggests that he cannot. That’s Hollinger’s ultimate point, I think.

by Jax on Sep 30, 2009 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Good points

We’re close—just on opposite sides of the fence, but close.

I would say that he has put “the ingredients” together in the past—almost getting to the finals in Portland, almost getting to the WCF with FElton and the Clips.

If you ask me, that’s where the Clips are going to run into trouble. They have talent and extra motivation (from last year’s debacle). They’ll defend and rebound and win games. They’ll go as far or further as any past Clipper teams. But at a certain point CMDSr will tighten up, and they’ll lose a game here or there unnecessarily, and then they’ll make some poor adjustments in the playoffs, and we’ll end up frustrated. But I’ll take it as a step forward, and eventually Dunleavy will kick himself upstairs.

I just don’t see another massacre.

And yes, I’m probably giving Thornton the benefit of the doubt. Hoping that he plays better after two seasons will a funky lineup. Gordon is a special player. A high lottery pick, and clearly a starter. Thornton could be a starter and might turn into Danny Granger, but he also might provide bench scoring and be a role player. It could easily turn out that Thornton is just as much a “role player” as Rasual Butler is, and they’ll both bring different things to the mix. Expectations just weren’t as high for Thornton as they were for Gordon. Yes, Gordon exceeded expectations, but Thornton exceeded expectations too in his rookie year. Really curious to see how Thornton plays this season. You may well be right.

by citizen zhiv on Sep 30, 2009 9:12 PM PDT reply actions  

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