Is Baron Davis a Pathetic Excuse for a Point Guard?
by Steve Perrin on Jan 22, 2010 12:31 PM PST
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PrintThere have been some lively debates on game threads regarding Baron Davis from time to time, including last night against the Nuggets. Baron is a bit of a lightning rod for both praise and criticism. I think most people agree that he's playing better this year than he did last year, but that he's not exactly worthy of an All Star bid. Beyond that, there's not a lot of agreement.
Now, I don't feel great about calling out an individual Citizen, but I read something on the thread that caught my eye, and I decided to follow up on it. Citizen NBAFAN8, an incredibly knowledgeable basketball fan who is among Baron's strongest critics, had this to say about the Clippers' highest paid player:
Baron has only 4 (FOUR!) 20+ point and 8+ assists games this year!!!!! Hahahahaha, what a pathetic excuse for a point guard!
Now, that got me thinking. Truthfully, four doesn't seem like that ridiculously low a number to me. In fact, it seemed pretty solid. So I decided to check.
Click here for the ordered list of players with games of 20 or more points and 8 or more assists this season.
First of all, Baron has six such games, not four. So that's a bit of a problem with the comment right there. Secondly, Baron is tied for 8th in the league in such games. And two of the players ahead of him (LeBron James and Dwyane Wade) aren't actually point guards. (Monta Ellis is also ahead of Baron, but I don't know what to call Monta.) So if not placing in the top five in the league in this category makes you a "pathetic excuse for a point guard" then fair enough. Oh, and the point guards ahead of him on the list? Steve Nash, Deron Williams, Chris Paul and Gilbert Arenas. He's tied with Chauncey Billups. That's pretty good company, I'd say.
Here's a small sampling of players behind him on the list, along with their count of 20/8 games halfway through the season. Rajon Rondo (4), Derrick Rose (4), Tyreke Evans (3), Brandon Jennings (2), Russell Westbrook (2), Jason Kidd (1), Tony Parker (1). What a bunch of pathetic losers!
Now, in the interest of fairness, I'm going to break out another cool stat for you. NBAFAN8's other key point was that Baron has had way too many dreadful shooting nights this season. And in that regard, he's spot on. In fact, Baron leads the league by a wide margin in abysmal shooting nights. Those nights when you can't make anything, but you still can't stop shooting. I defined them as 10 or more shots, with a shooting percentage less than or equal to 20%. So a 2 for 10 night or something worse would get you on the list.
As of right now, about halfway through the season, Baron has seven such nights and no other NBA player has more than five. (By the way, Rasual Butler is tied for fourth with three - ladies and gentlemen, your Los Angeles Clippers). Here's an interesting factoid about those seven games - the Clippers are 4 and 3 in them. I know - weird.
So there are some actual statistics on this question. Dr. Rohrshach will be available to field your questions.
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Thanks for clearing that up :-)
I must of over-looked the two other games of 20+ and 8+ (But not on purpose). As far as Baron’s shooting percentages they aren’t great. I think anytime your starting point guard is shooting 40% from the floor on 14 shot attempts that isn’t helping the team nor is it being a leader. Also, his 3pt shooting is maybe the worst of his career. He is shooting 27% from three, at the same time shooting an average of 4 threes a game.
Many have said that Baron is playing better than his usual self this year, but for a point guard who is getting paid 13 million + a season, I think he is underachieving and not living up to his contract.
I think I am done with this subject, as I just need to realize that Baron is inconsistent and his game hasn’t or never will be like the top point guards in the NBA.
Hopefuly for the team’s sake he can figure out how to be a leader w/o continuing to shoot the team out of games (ie, the 2-10 shooting performances, and 0-6 three points attempts)
"Basketball is life"
Point guards...
Point guards tend to shoot a better percentage than shooting guards or power forwards. If they are fitting into their role, they are distributors and should be shooting only high percentage shots.
Obviously, that’s never been Baron. Having said that, his shot attempts are down this season – the lowest since his third season in the league, and almost five per game fewer than he was hoisting his final season with the Warriors (in an admittedly much faster paced offense). So Baron is adjusting some.
Don’t forget also that Baron ends up taking a lot of ‘beat the shot clock’ heaves when things break down. I think there were two or three of those last night. Those can kill a guy’s shooting percentage. In New Orleans, that shot might be coming from Peja instead of CP3. Here, it almost always falls on Baron.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Jan 22, 2010 2:20 PM PST up reply actions
Screw that
Thanks for backing Boomdizzle up, Steve.
You rule.
Clippers 09-10. Prepare for a revolution.
he just needs to realize
that he will never be a great 3-point shooter or even a consistent jump shooter. If he does this then he would be amazing, his inside game is extremely good. He is at his best when he is attacking the rim and finishing or dishing. For him to be consistent he just needs to attack the rim and stop shooting, but that will never happen. I have never really liked Baron because of this, but I have to admit that he is doing so much better than last year…
by Viking Clipper Fan on Jan 22, 2010 12:52 PM PST reply actions
Go Jets!
Roger Sterling: To my knees, Don. They're bringing to my knees!"
by Lawler's Law on Jan 22, 2010 2:17 PM PST up reply actions
We would be so much worse if not for Baron
I know his 3 point percentage is pretty bad, but he has hit some big 3’s this season which has salvaged some games for us. How many times this season has he chucked up a 3 during crunch time that has made you start screaming and cursing only to see the shot go in. The Clippers didn’t start looking like a good team until Baron started taking over. Kaman has played great all season, Eric too though he has the tendency to dissapear during games. Butler has picked it up after a horrendous start but I never really had confidence in this team until BoomDizzle started taking control of the team.
by MannyA on Jan 22, 2010 1:35 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Well...
First, 2/10 isn’t that horrible as far as the “can’t stop shooting” argument goes. For the highest paid player on the team who is used to scoring a lot more, taking 10 shots isn’t unreasonable, no matter how cold he gets.
And at least in the more recent nights of poor shooting from Baron, as I recall, he’s also racked up a hefty number of assists in the process. I would rather get 2/10 with 13 assists, than 5/10 and 8 assists. The assists seem to get the team going a lot more than the made buckets. If his misses are desperation 3’s, we have a problem, but if they are contested layups that may or may not draw a foul, I think I’m okay with that.
(I did no research on this whatsoever, so please don’t hesitate to correct me if I was mistaken on anything)
I think the more pertinent question is
Whether the $65 M five year salary is justified based on his current production and likely declining production. Not sure where I shake out on that because I’m not sure how fast he’s going to decline and whether he can change his game as a result of the decline
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
I believe its justified because it shows that this organization will spend the money on free agents.
granted we are paying for Baron’s first 3 years and will have to eat it the last 2 hypothetically
Nice to see a blog manager take an active interest in an ongoing debate. Kudos, Steve.
The point I was trying to make during the “debate” in the game thread last night is the continuing and endless stream of excuses and explanations for the poor play and misguided classification of Baron Davis as this team’s “leader” and “heart and soul” need to stop. Like I’ve said before, I think it’s time to stop trying to pin this team’s losing ways on the owner, the coach, injuries and the plague of locusts coming over the San Gabriel Mountains and start applying it squarely where it needs to be…. ON THE PLAYERS.
As was noted last night, for every game a Baron fanatic can throw out showing his “heart” and “leadership” (the Chicago game), it’s just as easy to find 2 games that he clearly cost us and didn’t show any of the “heart” and “leadership” that he’s incorrectly praised for (the Portland and last night’s Denver games come to mind).
Other team’s PG’s names were thrown out and for my argument instead of using the big names (CP3, D-Will, etc.) I opted for younger, lesser known PG’s that are in obvious positions of “leadership” and are undoubtedly carrying their respective teams to success with less than Baron has to work with.
Aaron Brooks in Houston is running the point on a team that is without it’s 2 best players and doesn’t have anywhere near the talent on his roster BD has yet despite his age is carrying the Rockets to an overachieving 23-18 record while averaging 18.5 & 5.
To me, that’s leadership.
As a fan and a frequenter of this site it gets extremely tiresome to read about BD’s heart and leadership when the reality is he’s a PG who is currently 38-86 as the leader of this team and no stats he can throw up will change that.
"Remember kids......... petty and cheap shot-ish doesn't make you a true fan, it just makes you petty and cheap shot-ish."
by Themanthemyththelegend on Jan 22, 2010 1:50 PM PST reply actions
to take a further active interest....
I think everyone, Baron included, would agree that last season was a disaster and that he was bad. He has said as much. So the 38-86 record is a misnomer. No one’s crediting him with anything positive about last season.
So the pertinent question for the time being is, how has he been this season? What credit or blame does he get for the 19-23 record? Or maybe Jax’s question is the right one – is he worth 5/$65M?
Those are bigger questions, and maybe I’ll tackle them in another post some time. For my part, I do think that Baron has been a big part of whatever success the Clippers have enjoyed this season. As an active observer of games, it is my observation that they have been better when he has been on the floor. You’re seeing two bad for every good – I’m seeing a different ratio, certainly more good than bad. But everyone’s entitled to their opinion. (And don’t forget, the Clippers are 4-3 in games where Baron has shot particularly poorly. So he’s helping in other ways in those games.)
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Jan 22, 2010 2:14 PM PST up reply actions
He's a bargain
Compared to what the Angels paid Gary Mathews Jr.
by ghost_ride on Jan 22, 2010 4:08 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
You get a rec for that, my friend.
"Remember kids......... petty and cheap shot-ish doesn't make you a true fan, it just makes you petty and cheap shot-ish."
by Themanthemyththelegend on Jan 22, 2010 5:27 PM PST up reply actions
I dont agree that Baron is pathetic excuse for a point guard
This team was coming off a back to back, showing up at 4am in Denver. Baron basically took the night off. We werent expected to win this game so why risk a potential injury for the sake of trying to prove to Clips Nation that he is in it to win it every game.
Yes, you're right. Taking the night off during a nationally televised game because they weren't expected to win anyway is EXACTLY the way to show Clipper Nation that he's a leader.
Ugh.
did you write this before or after the booze kicked in?
"Remember kids......... petty and cheap shot-ish doesn't make you a true fan, it just makes you petty and cheap shot-ish."
by Themanthemyththelegend on Jan 22, 2010 5:29 PM PST up reply actions
big0lbad
Baron basically took the night off!? Is that what you want from the leader or “best” player on this team? If you are Baron Davis and you make $160,000+ a game should you be allowed to take a game off? I think not!
"Basketball is life"
interesting...
fact about the 7 games baron had bad shooting nights is interesting. basketball is a crazy game.
Baron never took the night off he just had a bad shooting night.
If anyone took the night off it was Marcus Camby
yeah Camby did seem a bit off
but after all the great games he has given us I think he deserves a little slack.
" Baron for the win, BINGO!!!! The Clipers Win, The Clippers win!!! "
Ralph Lawler
by bestclipfan on Jan 23, 2010 11:31 PM PST up reply actions
No doubt about that
Camby has been a work horse this year. The guy is almost 36 years old and he is second in the NBA in rebounding. Rebounding takes heart and working your but off. Camby is the true leader of this team.
"Basketball is life"
At the beginning of the year, I thought Eric Gordon was the Clippers' best player...
now, I think Baron Davis is the teams MVP. Those poor shooting nights are tough to watch sometimes, but the fact is, when the Clippers need a basket, Baron is the only guy we can trust to make something happen. Camby is great all over, Kaman is an offensive juggernaut, and EGJ Thizzface Supreme has all the tools, but Baron is simply their best player. He has put the team on his back many times this year, and while he has a bit of a bad wrap, you really can’t question his effort or intensity this year. I am very happy with what Baron is giving the Clippers, and on top of that, I honestly believe he is one of those players that makes everyone else on the team better.
Yay yay.
by KamanHomie on Jan 22, 2010 2:43 PM PST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
God damn Steve kind of cold here lol
I think everyone is just frustrated we should be better than we are and their is no doubt top of the lotto was not the goal. I may not believe the Clippers are a playoff team anymore but I believe they can reach my new goal of 40 wins.
BD is only One Player on our team and only one of 5 on the floor at a time. The guy cant do it all alone.
How can he get an assist if when he passes it the guys cant knock it down? How can he score if every play MDsr. runs is a post to Kaman again and again and again, ETC. Any team is gonna figure it out and when they do none of the other 4 guys on the floor can get open for Kaman to pass out of the Double Team.
If not for our defense and BD we would be on the same winning record as the Net right now, Few to none (sorry 3).
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
I'm satisfied with BD's performance so far...
What I’m not satisfied with is his playing time. I think he should be playing more minutes. I don’t know why or who to put it on, but, at least in all the home games I’ve been to, winning or losing, BD is usually benched in the second and fourth quarter of every game. What bothers me even more is that some of these games ended up in losses, as in the Clippers had the lead and seemed to be in control of their own destiny with BD at the point, and then he gets benched for Telfair, and next thing you know the lead is gone. Not having a good backup PG is most def part of the problem with BD’s inconsistency, and I understand he’s got mileage on those legs and needs the rest, but when we need him just to be on the court running things, he’s not, and I know it can’t be him, that’s on the coach dead on. He doesn’t need to score lots of points nowadays, but he needs to be on the court more. Right now he’s averaging 34MPG, he should be averaging about 40-42 minutes.
by DonaldSterlingSucks on Jan 22, 2010 3:20 PM PST reply actions
No point guard in the NBA averages 40+ minutes per game, not sure its wise to suggest that a 30 year old should be the only one. Chris Paul has the highest minutes per game at 38.2 mpg, of course he also played in 10 fewer games.
by Michael White on Jan 22, 2010 3:58 PM PST up reply actions
Baron sits the start of the 4th because we play the starters the entire third
I do’t think Baron should play more I believe he should have to play less Baron needs to be conserved for the season and right now when Telfair is out the team is lost,
Agree to disagree
Why should Baron be conserved? You mean for the POSTseason, right? What’s the point of having him then, and paying him all the money the team is paying him, if you rather conserve him? We’re trying to make the playoffs here! Get him a better backup, then! He needs to play more, not less.
by DonaldSterlingSucks on Jan 22, 2010 3:37 PM PST up reply actions
Conserve him so that he doesn't injure himself
and bring down our chance of winning games in the process. The clippers need to get a really good backup pg so Baron doesn’t have to play so much.
" Baron for the win, BINGO!!!! The Clipers Win, The Clippers win!!! "
Ralph Lawler
Will Jameson Curry work?
He can score and handle the ball. I think he will do well and fit the back-up point guard role.
"Basketball is life"
from what we have heard
he is a shoot first pg and not much of play maker, even the D league blogger said he isn’t really a pg.
" Baron for the win, BINGO!!!! The Clipers Win, The Clippers win!!! "
Ralph Lawler
Conserve him so we can have a respectable season
Last thing we need is Baron going down after he just played 40mins each in a back to back. Conserving Baron is just to aviod any injuries and causing any major injuires that may linger to next season. Besides back-ups get paid too and they need to step up and play their role to help the team just as much as Baron. 30-35 mins is a nice rate for Baron at his age.
What if you factor in FG% to the equation?
There is no question that Baron can total up a high amount of points and dish. But efficiency matters.
Baron is leading the league in games recording 8 assists but shooting under 40%.
Here’s the subtlety maybe: Jason Kidd is second on that dubious list, but if you add 15 points to the requirements, Kidd only has 1 game but Baron remains near the top. I guess it would be a question of attempts on who that reflects better on.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Baron is still pretty efficient though
His PER of 18.84 is pretty solid, and ranks 8th amongst NBA point guards.
by Michael White on Jan 22, 2010 6:40 PM PST up reply actions
Baron has the 18.84 efficiency rating b/c....
He is shooting a career high 83% from the free throw line, and gets 8 assists and 2 steals a night. With that said, there is no way he can be considered an efficient scorer when he is shooting 14 shots a game and only getting 16 points a night.
"Basketball is life"
Does it matter? The points scored at the free throw count too. It doesn’t matter how you get to the number (Camby does it almost exclusively by grabbing a lot of rebounds) but the metric gages a player’s per minute productivity. Baron is in the top 8 in that regard.
by Michael White on Jan 22, 2010 7:33 PM PST up reply actions
Who is he behind?
Let me guess:
CP3
Nash
Rondo
D-Will
Billups
Arenas
Kidd
These guys, for the most part, are considered leaders on their teams. They are also the cream of the crop as far as point guards go. If Baron is indeed 8th in efficiency then he is of the later of the best point guards in the NBA, but yet he makes more money than everyone on that list except Arenas (that is until his contract is negated).
"Basketball is life"
Also, I do think it matters how you get to the number
KObe Bryant shoots 23 shots a night, but yet he is scoring 28 points a night. Monte Ellis is shooting 22 shots a night and only scoring 26 points a night. These guys are nothing but ball chuckers that shoot, and shoot, and shoot. I am not saying that Baron shoots as much as these players, but I am saying it does matter how you get to that number. Monte Ellis shot 39 and 33 shost in two games last week. He ened with 36 and 33 points in those games. Sadly, Monte has a efficiency of 21.18. As you can see this stat can be deceiving.
"Basketball is life"
Sadly, Monte has a efficiency of 21.18. As you can see this stat can be deceiving.
First problem is that Monte’s PER is 17.9; not 21.18. So if you want to make an example of somebody by saying their PER is inflated, a good start would be using the correct number. I’m still not sure why you are only looking at TS%. As you even acknowledged before, Baron is doing several other things well, things that are input into the PER. So while his TS% isn’t great, he is doing other things to help the Clippers.
These guys, for the most part, are considered leaders on their teams. They are also the cream of the crop as far as point guards go.
And? Why the designation that Baron has to better than all those guys. This whole post started (yet again) with you making a hyperbolic claim bashing Baron that has been easily refuted. You start by saying that Baron is “a pathetic excuse for a point guard” and now you are saying he isn’t as good as the elite PG’s in the game. You obviously just have an axe to grind with Baron, because he’s bashed by you after a poor game, yet the game before he completely took over the fourth quarter and won the game.
by Michael White on Jan 22, 2010 8:21 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I found Monta's effeciency on NBA.com
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/monta_ellis/index.html?nav=page
It is in his “09-10 Statistics” box next to his picture on the left side of the page.
It says his EFF:21.18
"Basketball is life"
PER versus EFF
PER is John Hollinger’s stat. I combines various statistical categories, adding points for ‘good’ things like points and assists and rebounds and steals, subtracting points for turnovers and misses. It also takes into account a team’s pace so that players from teams that shoot a ton aren’t measured more highly than those from the slower paced teams. PER is not the Holy Grail of NBA measurement, and some people have major issues with some of it. But I would consider it less flawed than any other available stat.
EFF on nba.com is a less complicated metric that starts off similarly to PER, only with different weightings for each category of stat. But the big difference is that EFF ignores both minutes played and pace meaning that a player who gets a ton of minutes on a high paced team (which describes Monta pretty precisely) will get a better score just by sheer volume. PER is not only a per minute stat, but strives to be a per possession stat, which helps in finding underutilized players. The best example of this is a guy like Carl Landry – one of the league leaders in PER at 21.9 but with a 16 EFF because he only plays 27 minutes per game.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Jan 25, 2010 9:29 AM PST up reply actions
Which way do you want to look at it?
In your 8:04 PM post, you suggest that the PER stat shouldn’t be taken too seriously, but at 7:56 you took it seriously enough to compare Baron unfavorably.
Your main point, I think, is that $13 million is too much for Baron’s caliber of play. That’s fair enough… He may be relatively over-payed. So what do you think, would $11 million be more on target?
On the other hand, you lose me with some of your other comments. He’s certainly a far cry from pathetic. He has some inconsistencies, but his effort and tenacity are not among them. I would agree, for instance, that PER doesn’t catch everything and is sometimes deceiving. Heck, when I see BD creating disruptions on defense, steadying the team on offense, and getting in teammates faces about maximal effort, I’m sure that PER misses that entirely.
Honestly I just think our offense looks terrible and lost when Barons not on the court. It may be Telfair being a bad replacement or Baron just makes us that much better. I think the guy is more important than the stats we look at but his inconsistencies are annoying me a lot aswell. IMO Baron is easily the most important player on the team, thats where Kaman gets his points and i think that if it wernt for some bad misses BD would be averaging closer 9-10 apg. I agree with NBAFAN8 about the fact that at the moment Baron is not worth his 13mil, after his Warriors season I would say he definitely would be but just not now.
Exactly
If there are so many negative statistics that can be brought to our attention that are not in favor of Baron, then I think he is obviously not doing a good job running the point.
Clipper fans wonder why Elton Brand didn’t want to stay in L.A. well we are talking about the man himself right now in this thread.
Btw, I think his effort and tenacity can be questioned as well. How many times does he let his man dribble right past him, or how many times does he dribble the air out of the ball just because he is too lazy to get to the right spot on the floor to run the play. Btw, these type of possessions almost always end up with Baron taking a fade-away three. If he was so tenacious wouldn’t he try to get to the basket?
"Basketball is life"
So many negative statistics?
An 18.9 PER? That can’t be what you’re referring to, is it?
As far as his effort, I have to disagree with your slant here. I would describe the situation much more like SP and others do. I just don’t see Baron as lazy.
A lot of this is a matter of degree. I probably agree that Baron’s game isn’t perfect and that his salary is a little too high. But that’s very different from saying “he is obviously not doing a good job running the point.” That just sounds reckless.
Take a look at the 4th quarter of the Bulls game. Several times he worked his way inside and made the clutch shot. Power and grace. He has some flaws, but there’s a lot to like about his game.
So again, if you could bring his salary down, where would you place his market value?
I live in Illinois, so I can see past BD being from Cali
I understand that many people on this blog are from Cali and I know Baron went to UCLA, and when he signed w/ the Clips many people were prolly welcoming him with arms open. But, the reality is he doesn’t have too many fans outside of California.
I believe Baron should be making at or near 8 million a season. Andre Miller is making 6.7 mill and he is 33 years old. I see these two as very similiar players at this stage in their careers…and don’t tell me Miller can’t ball anymore b/c he single handly kept the Blazers (w/o Roy, Oden, Outlaw, etc..) in the game tonight at Boston w/ 28 points, 8 rebounds, and 8 assists.
"Basketball is life"
Well, that's some bizarre logic
Elton Brand, who by all accounts recruited Baron Davis to the Clippers, left the Clippers because of Baron Davis.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Jan 25, 2010 9:32 AM PST up reply actions
Just a few more interesting stats about Baron's threes...
REMEMBER BARON IS SHOOTING 27.8 % from 3 this season.
-Baron has attempted 5+ 3 point field goals 14 times this season.
-In 23 games this year Baron has shot 30% or less from 3 point range.
-Baron has 11 games in which he attempted atleast 1 three point field goal and failed to make a three. Out of those games he is a combined 0-28 from 3 point distance.
-In individual games Baron has shot from 3 point (1-5, 1-7, 2-7, 1-6, 3-10, 1-4, 1-5, and 1-5). In those games he is a combined (11-49) from 3 point.
As a Clipper fan, what do these stats say to you? To me they make me think our point guard needs to stop shooting so many threes. The Clippers have 3 point shooters in Eric Gordon (38.4% for his career) and Rasual Butler (36.7 % for his career). If you consider that on the season Baron has shot almost just as many threes (BD173, RB178, EJ158) than any other player on the Clippers, is Baron really doing the team a favor by shooting so many threes or is he hurting the team?
"Basketball is life"
I continue to believe
that BD would do best in a Nellie-type offense. I think we’ve seen that play out. Having said that, his athleticism appears to be on the decline and I’m not sure where that leaves him over the next few years. He doesn’t have the shooting skills of a Steve Nash (not many do), he’s not overly adept at running set offense plays, etc. I think that the Clippers would do best given how expensive he is and given what is sure to be his continuing declining athleticism to surround him with shooters who can spread the floor and big men who can post. Which is what the team seems to be trying to do. They need to draft or trade for a young pg next year thought IMO
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Shooting Woes aside
I think Baron has been pretty good this season. Clearly he is not the athlete he was earlier in his career, but his quickness is still there and I believe he as at least a couple of good years left in him (though I absolutely agree they need to find themselves a good young pg for the future). And I agree that he would benefit from having shooters around him. A healthy Blake Griffin running the floor and finishing breaks would be a tremendous asset to his game too. The missing piece is a SF who can space the floor, get his own shot, and finish at the rim. For me, that guy is Caron Butler (who is also a very capable defender). I think EJ, Caron, Blake, and Kaman would make Baron look very good, and the Clips would be a playoff team.
Btw I’m thinking about finding a way to work Caron Butler into every thread on this board until we deal for him or Steve kicks me out of Clips Nation.
I have some worries about Gay
I agree his a very gifted scorer but he seems like a chucker to me. But then again with Gay at SF and Griffin at pf and Gordon at sg we would have a very nice mix of young talent. I am surprised though that Memphis isn’t aggressively going after retaining him.
" Baron for the win, BINGO!!!! The Clipers Win, The Clippers win!!! "
Ralph Lawler
by bestclipfan on Jan 23, 2010 11:29 AM PST up reply actions
+1
Keep on pushing the Butler idea. He’d be a fine fit for a couple of years. To acquire him now also makes the best sense with the cap situation.
I think calling him a pathetic excuse of a point guard
is too harsh. He’s flawed, but he’s one of the leaders of this team. Kaman is our big men anchor that we use to get easy buckets (classic tall center that every good team has), EJ is our all around-er that makes this team go (consistent efficient production on both ends), and BD is the driver of this team (special go to guy in crunch time + playmaker).
Ideally we would want a superstar type player like bron bron or wade, but lets face it, we don’t have one. None of those 3 best players that we have is a leader IMO. All three need each other. If one is out, we won’t win many games. While Baron looks like the leader because he can win under heavy pressure, he’s not consistent (no ability to do it every night). While EJ seems to be very efficient almost every night, he does not have the go to move to make that critical bucket or take over the game (not yet at least, I’m his fan his since college ball, and I believe that he can be on elite level). Kaman is Kaman, limited because he’s a center and lets face it, a center can’t take over a team as easily as a guard can.
I think the criticsm of Baron is really because we want that superstar player as a leader, but he’s not really it. EJ is also not really that player. And Kaman is also not one. Lets accept the fact that we simply don’t have one. I don’t think Griffin can be one either, but that’s for another discussion.
Bottom line, the criticism is too harsh. He’s still more valuable than most point guards (Aaron Brooks included). He’s one of the leaders of the team. I wouldn’t call him THE leader of the team. Unless we can get Nash, CP3, Deron, Rondo, and maybe one or two more names that I’m too lazy to type right now, I think we should be thankful. My 2 pennies.
The thing about Baron is this:
HE can rack up those stats, and do post-ups as he is a very physical point guard. However, he has one of the worst 2-point jump-shots percentages in the league, his FG% isn’t that great, but he can’t stroke the 3 to make up for it. However, he isn’t a “Pathetic Excuse for a Point Guard” at all.
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
"If the NBA were on channel 5 and a bunch of frogs making love were on channel 4, I'd watch the frogs, even if they were coming in fuzzy." - Bobby Knight
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
This is a great lil stat about Baron this month
Baron has attempted 43 three point field goals in the month of January. He has hit just 6 of the 43! That is 13% from three. He is shooting almost 4 threes a game this month, but only making .13 a game (THAT NUMBER IS LESS THAN 1/4 of ONE!) So you might be asking yoursef this, “in 12 games, Baron has put up 43 three point field goals and only managed to make 6?” YEPPERS! This guy really is leading this team, lol.
"Basketball is life"
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