Re-evaluating the Zach Randolph trade...
Okay, hindsight is always fifty-fifty and all that, but, with training camp winding down and the season still a week away I find myself musing about what might have been.
In watching these preseason games I'm continually struck by the Clips lack of a go-to scorer. And, of course, there's also been a lot of recent talk about acquiring Carmelo Anthony... though it would certainly require us trading away at least two valuable pieces: one of our good older vets in Chris Kaman or Baron Davis along with one of our valued younger players (Griffin, Gordon, Aminu) or one of our valuable draft picks.
But... would any of this be necessary if the Clips hadn't traded away the one reliable go-to scorer they had just fifteen months ago? What would have happened, where would the team be, if they hadn't traded Zach Randolph? Let's look at it:
Before the 2009 lottery the Clips sat with a team composed of Eric Gordon, Randolph, Kaman, Baron Davis, Al Thornton, Marcus Camby, and a few less important pieces. There was, as there is now, a lot of lamenting and hand-wringing over the lack of a high quality, defensive-minded gluey small forward. Then the lottery happens and the Clips get the brass ring in Blake Griffin... a drop dead beautiful power forward. Do nothing but add him to the team above and you've got a pretty glittery roster with some holes and not much bench depth. The worst thing is... you've got no real help at that three spot. So Mike Dunleavy makes a decision and trades Zach Randolph who's making 15+ million a year... ultimately turning Zach into Craig Smith, a serviceable power forward, Sebastian Telfair, an okay point guard who can't shoot, and Rasual Butler, a small forward who can play defense and shoot. He needs Smith to replace Randolph and the other two to bolster the bench and the Clips stay snugly under the cap. Not bad, right? Well, it seemed like it at the time.
Then the season happens, Griffin doesn't play a game, Butler is good, streaky shooter, okay defender, Telfair doesn't do much, and Smith is decent, likeable, a poor man's Zach Randolph. But Al Thornton and Butler fail to adequately fill the number 3 spot and the Clips are a bad team. In the middle of the season Camby and Thornton are traded away, clearing space for a big acquisition that never happens. Yecch.
I'm sure you're all aware what Zach did last year in Memphis... averaging 21 and 11 in 81 games, making the all star team. For the advanced stat guys he has a PER of 21.2, an eFG% of .494, and a WS of 9.7. By way of comparison Carmelo Anthony scored 26.6 with 6 rebounds had a per of 22.2, eFG% of .478, and a WS of 7.9. Yeah, I know, they play different positions but they're the same in more ways than they're different: Neither's much of a three point shooter, neither focuses on defense much, both like the ball, both can fill it up.
What about salaries? I suppose it's crazy talk but if the Clips had kept Randolph and made no other moves they would have still have come in under the salary cap last year even with the addition of Griffin and some low level bench players. They might have even been able to acquire Rasual Butler... cap-wise he would probably have fit at his 3.9 million salary but they wouldn't have had Randolph's trade exception to deal to Charlotte in the swing. (Of course it might have been viewed as heresy at the time but the Clips could have just kept Zach around and dumped Camby's salary. Clips shedded him at the trade deadline anyway... and wound up with nothing back on the deal.)
But forget that for the moment, let's say the Clips managed to pick up another small forward somewhere and let's say it's Rasual Butler. Charlotte needed to get rid of him, the Clips had the money, let's leave him on the team. Now you've got Davis, Gordon, Kaman, Camby, Griffin, Randolph, Thornton, and Butler in your top rotation. Whoops, down goes Griffin... but you've still got Kaman, Camby and Randolph up front and Thornton can play some four as well.
How many games do the Clips win with this lineup? More than 29 I think. Maybe 35? Maybe they don't make the dumb Camby trade and they go five hundred? It's not at all far-fetched is it? Butler has a better year because he's only shooting threes. Gordon plays with less pressure and gets more opportunities with Zach and Kaman filling the middle. (Randolph and Marc Gasol were explosive together last year.) Clips are short a guard and that hurts but it wasn't Telfair was it? There's no Rhino but hell you've got Zach Randolph.
So what happens this year? Griffin's back and Camby's probably gone (but maybe not). Thornton might get traded for a piece or a pick but let's say he stays. You don't get Aminu in the draft.
Right now, today, you've got a rotation of Kaman, Davis, Gordon, Thornton, Griffin, Randolph, Butler, Jordan and... I don't know, your first round pick? Somewhere around 12 to 20... Xavier Henry, Luke Babbit, Eric Bledsoe? You can flip-flop Randolph and Griffin and play one of them at the 3 or the 5 on occasion. Or you bring one in off the bench. Most importantly you've got an undeniable go-to guy in Randolph and you haven't given up anything to get him. You don't have Aminu but you didn't spend the future pick to get Bledsoe and you've still got your number one this year, next year, and you've got the Minny pick. Most importantly, this alternate universe Clipper team is going to the playoffs. They're big and deep and have a ton of firepower. I can see into the second round from here.
Randolph's huge contract is gone at the end of the year, you can resign him for less or let him go because (god-willing) Blake is ready to step up... you've got to make some decisions about DJ and plan for the future signings of Gordon and Griffin. If Camby's still around you might have another year to worry about him.
Does Mike Dunleavy survive? If the Clips go .500, maybe, but maybe he moves up to GM anyway, after the season. Right now I'm thinking he was probably done anyway. Doesn't matter, at this point, we really don't know if Vinny Del Negro is any improvement.
I'm just musing... at the time, the Randolph trade looked like a wise move... and maybe it would have been if the Clips had brought in the player they seemed to need... a defense first small forward. Of course that wouldn't give you the other thing they need... a guy who can fill it up with the clock ticking: a guy like Zach Randolph... who they already had.
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Good post.
I was thinking the same thing. While we wouldn’t have as much talent, we would be a better team TODAY. The Clips alwasy hope for the future that never arrives.
With Zach at the four, you could play Griffen at the 3. Yeah, he can’t shoot well from outside but Zach can. Zach could play offense on the outside and Griffen can play inside. On D, Griffen cay play D inside and Griffen can run around playing D. How many really good power forwards are there right now that Zach has to worry about in the West.
Camby could come off the bench.
I know Michael White posted below - I don't even need to look
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Surprisingly he hasn't
I can only surmise he hasn’t logged onto CN in the last 9 hours
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Oct 20, 2010 8:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Why bother?
I’ve said my peice MANY times before on this subject
by Michael White on Oct 20, 2010 9:01 PM PDT up reply actions
CHANGE IS GOOD.
ZBo and Kaman can both shoot and rebound, so whoever doesn’t have the ball needs to position themselves for a rebound or (better yet) a put-back. One or the other will have to be double-teamed as both are fairly automatic close to the basket. Camby and Griffin both love to fly out of nowhere and grab loose balls and rebound and I could see letting Camby go to give Griffin more playing time. DeAndre fills in whatever leftover clock that Camby would coming off the bench for Blake. Nice. BUT I hate to think that Dunleavy would still be in charge d/t the additional wins the line-up would have produced. I prefer the new coaching staff—a great salesman (motivator) paired with a defensive genius and an offensive genius. Also, the new GM has skills—putting together the foundation for a great new culture. I think if Dunleavy was still around we’d still be picking up random talent that didn’t fit the overall needs of the organization…
As much as Zach Randolph was a good player
He still had the reputation of a cancer and the Clippers had an overload at the power forward position. Add in Zach’s hefty deal and the Clippers weren’t exactly in a position to just sit and do nothing…
So the trade didn’t pan out necessarily as we would have preferred, it happens.
Agree completely
If we had a time machine, it’d be easy to do a lot of things differently. We wouldn’t sign Baron Davis, since we’d know that Elton would leave. We’d keep Rhino away from Blake Griffin in practice, and we’d tell Blake not to dunk at all, just for that one game. We probably wouldn’t trade ZBo right before his all-star year. We’d prepare a better DVD for LeBron. All of these things.
But in reality, we should only expect our FO to do what is considered the best decision at that time. At the time, signing Baron seemed like a good idea. At the time, letting Blake practice with Rhino seemed fine. At the time, our DVD seemed adequate. Okay, no excuses on the DVD. But I digress, trading Zach Randolph was the right move, at the time. At the time, ZBo had a terrible reputation, had what was considered a terrible contract, and was supposedly untradeable.
When we originally got ZBo, it was considered a highly risky move. After all, who would be stupid enough to pay $15mil to the guy who did this? Well, the Clippers did. We didn’t win when we got him, so it was just seen as another “It’s the Clippers” moment, and ZBo’s rep remained in the dumps. When we shipped him off to Memphis, no one shook their finger at us. Why would they? He wasn’t a winner when we traded him, so it was the right move at the time. Could we have seen his rise to all-stardom coming? Maybe if we had that time machine…
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there."
-John Wooden
artest keeps on getting a gig
why because of two things
1. People can change
2. Talent
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
But look at how many guys haven't changed
If Artest freaked out and feuded Kobe mid-finals, the Lakers would look like idiots for bringing him in. But since he doesn’t fight with Kobe, they are geniuses. At the beginning of last season, if you asked anyone about the likelihood of Artest and Kobe not getting along, I’m willing to bet that a good portion of responses would say it’s very likely. Now, in hindsight, we know he was getting therapy (first person he thanked after he won the Championship haha), and so it wasn’t very likely at all that he would have fought with Kobe. But this is all in hindsight. It’s just unfair to expect so much of people before they know the facts.
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there."
-John Wooden
here is the secret
WINNING TEAMS TAKE CHANCES.
Losing team play for the future every year. Winning teams take the chance for this year.
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
So do losing teams
Look at the T-Wolves… that’s a lot of chances right there.
Winning teams also don’t take chances —> San Antonio Spurs
But I admit I agree with you, I do wish we’d take a little more chances, especially with cap and spending money on the luxury tax. DTS whined about how he spent so much cash on the practice facility recently, but if he’d put any money towards the players we might have a decent squad. One thing that 99% of winning teams have in common is that they are WAY over the salary cap. In that way, I’d like us to take a LOT more chances.
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there."
-John Wooden
Actually, hindsight is always 20-20... not 50-50...
… which perhaps explains why the content of this post looks a little “off,” in my humble opinion. I’m a huge BG fan, but I’m breaking out the spectacles to envision him at the 3, which is realistically what needs to happen in order to make this hypothetical work. And any hope for having a fast break team goes out the window with Zach, so Baron no longer makes any sense whatsoever. To continue the pun, I simply can’t see it.
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein
by Another son of Mike Smith on Oct 20, 2010 1:40 PM PDT reply actions
I hated this trade from the moment I heard about it
There is nothing wrong with having a gluttony of good players.
The injury to Blake last year magnifies the stupidity of this trade. But even if you take that out of the equation the trrade is stupid.
You win a trade when you get a valuable asset and/or a valuable player. This trade only netted the Clippers replacement level players.
I am not one to say that Blake doesn’t need PT, I think your best players regardless of position need to be on the court. So yes a trade needed to happen.
The Clippers sold ZBo at the absolutely lowest value. That is my problem with the trade, they showed nothing for a 20-10 guy who has value in this league.
Sure the Clips got him at a very low value, but just because the Knicks made a mistake doesn’t mean the Clippers had to make the same one.
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
And check out what Z-Bo has been traded for in the past before you say the Clippers got no vaue for him.
Both Portland AND New York gave him away for peanuts.
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on Oct 20, 2010 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions
so what
does that mean it is okay to make the same mistake?
/mom voice/ If your friends are going to jump off a cliff, are you going to jump off a cliff too? /mom voice/
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
I think that establishes ZBo's value
At the time of the Knicks trade to us ZBo had a bigger contract than Baron Davis. Think about the perception of many on Baron’s tradeability. So for the Clippers to trade ZBo without having to take back any long term contracts and get a few serviceable bench players was about as well as the Clippers could do. No one was going to give the Clippers Iguodala for ZBo.
That said I thought the Clippers would trade Camby since he had a expiring deal, no off the court drama and was still very productive. It ends up the Clippers traded both and got no future picks for either.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Oct 20, 2010 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions
My point exactly.
bacek, not saying we shouldn’t feel bad we got nothing for him because others did, I’m saying what could you realistically expect when the entire league and sportswriters viewed Z-Bo as practically immovable?
Dunny flipped him for expriing contracts and pieces that filled needs.
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on Oct 20, 2010 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions
I disagree
if he played as well as he did this past season for the Clips then he would have had more trade value.
Trading at the lowest point makes no sense. It isn’t like everyone doesn’t know he has talent. His issues were outside of that, and in terms of guys with baggage, teams often look past it if the player can produce.
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
Sorry Bacek you're going to lose this battle.
More bad side to Z-bo than Good. I personally wouldn’t want Blake picking up
Z-bo’s bad habit. We have The Beast and we are happy with that. Z-bo is
history.
look at my retort post below about character guys
winning team have always taken on “baggage”
because talent wins out
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
Nay
See Pistons and See Spurs. Bill Simmons is kind of right about this. You can have one crazy guy but once you get multiples of such they start hanging out and they go crazy (see Jailblazers, see Pacers)
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Oct 20, 2010 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions
how does that retort what I'm saying?
Did that Clippers team have a bunch of crazy guys?
Care to inform me CC
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
I think we have some
Baron is eccentric but not in the bad tough guy kind of way.
Kaman is very eccentric, also not in the bad tough guy kind of way, more of the blowing up crap kind of way.
But they all seem pretty good natured. Point is you can have one (and just one) crazy guy. Any more and they conspire to blow up the establishment.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Oct 20, 2010 5:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Exactly what I meant
I’ve seen the videos. The guy is a loveable goofball. I just hope he doesn’t lose any digits while he’s with the Clips.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Oct 20, 2010 5:42 PM PDT up reply actions
werd
you can have a one to a few guys where their talent for sure is there, but their head might be in the wrong place, if you have a strong leader on the team (not counting the head coach, for some reason)
Seems like most “troublemakers” are fine playing on teams with an established leader, who won’t accept anything from the best from their guys. We haven’t had a guy like that since maybe sammie, so I think we need to find that guy (hopefully blake) first, then can look to add talent, in whatever form in may come.
That thing about Griffin picking up bad habits...
Honestly that’s disrespectful to both players. You think Blake Griffin can’t be his own man in the locker room? Maybe the young guys are so gullible they’ll start jerking up shots or smoking weed. Maybe they’ll pick up that 20 and ten habit as well.
That's the truth
Blake Griffin is a man possessed, on a mission to dominate in his first year. We all get the heebie-jeebies whenever he leaps over 3 people for a rebound, but that has less to do with his athleticism (lots of guys are athletic) and more to do with a guy wanting it so bad, he’ll sacrifice his body to get it.
If anything’s gonna rub off in the locker room, I’d worry that it would be Baron’s diva attitude. Dude was like, “Everybody only gets one,” when I went to autograph alley. I guess he didn’t want to over-exert himself.
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there."
-John Wooden
Hmm...
Baron IS a diva. But the autograph thing… it’s one thing to sign stuff for a fan, it’s another to have that person sell it off on ebay. So, one per customer. Don’t forget, part of these guys contracts require them to sign a ton of paraphenalia… it’s kind of a sucky, endless task.
True true
But what can you really sell on eBay without a certificate of authenticity, these days? Baron probably does have something in his contract about excessive signatures or whatever, but he was still being kind of a jerk about it. Especially when the rest of the guys, like Kaman or Gordon would look you in the eye, ask you how you’re enjoying the season so far, etc. They are exceptionally nice guys, though, so maybe that’s a little unfair.
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there."
-John Wooden
I don't really know much about autographs...
I do know someone who’s autograph is somewhat valuable. She does the one and done thing. And she personalizes it so it apparently makes it less marketable. ?? How do you vet an autograph? Bring a notary?
Personalizing is a nice touch
I’ll suggest it to Boom Dizzle next time we meet ;)
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there."
-John Wooden
Market Value
It’s like any market. If the market yields $1 for stock from this computer company that’s oddly named after a fruit, and you sell that stock for $2, you’re not a fool because you’ve just made 100% profit. If that funny-named company ends up being Apple, and 20 years later that stock is worth $150, you’re still not a fool for selling it for $2. Whoever decided not to sell until now and is making 15,000% profit is a genius, but you’re not a fool. Who on earth would pass up 100% profit?
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there."
-John Wooden
but if you buy at $1 and sell at $1
you are admitting you made a mistake which in this case, the Clipper should have never traded for ZBo in the first place.
But you can’t change that, real markets don’t have “Indian-Givers.” So the wise move would be to hold until you can sell at a profit.
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
How is buying at $1 and selling at $1 a mistake?
You have no net gain/loss. Just because an unforeseen spike caused the stock to go up to $150 later on, doesn’t mean you made any mistake when you sold earlier. In hindsight it’s a mistake, but when you sold for $1, it wasn’t a mistake yet.
I’m only talking about whether or not a deal is a good deal when you actually make that deal, not a year later when you realize that deal was pretty stupid. But you can’t be held accountable for how things will turn out in a year, unless it’s predictable. Zach Randolph’s situation was anything but predictable.
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there."
-John Wooden
you are off a little in your assesment
First, I said that it admits you made a mistake. In trading stocks you pay a transaction fee. IF you sell the stock for the same amount of money guess what? You are at a loss.
In team sports, GMs are often penalized with their jobs for making a mistake. What happens when the replacement comes in? The replacement GM then tries to fix the mistake by trading away players that the past GM made a “mistake” on.
Look at Toronto they signed Hedo, who was a terrible fit, then the next season they trade him for Barbosa and nothing. You have to remember Barbosa has been a below average player for two years now.
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
Haha analogy fail
I forgot about those transaction fees… but I see your point. There are residual effects to trades deemed as failures. MDSr. is punished for making the bad trade for ZBo. When that turns out MDSr. was right, getting ZBo was actually the good trade, and trading him away was the bad one, he doesn’t exactly get his old job back.
Still, I don’t think you can blame anyone for not seeing this one coming. Say Baron Davis suddenly starts playing passionate basketball for the rest of his career. He takes 1 three per game, all of them buzzer beaters, and averages 10-12 assists per game for the rest of his career. Are we suddenly geniuses for signing him to his current contract? Maybe at that point we will be. Right now, we’re still just overpaying a lazy former all-star.
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there."
-John Wooden
This post is just to have something to talk about.
Should of, would of, what ever is just history. I think if we recall
the majority here on Clips Nation were happy that Z-bo was
gone and saying that we got for $1 and then sold for $1 is not
true because we did get some decent players in return even
if a maybe a few on here disagree. The guy is not dedicated
because if he was he would be a superstar. It’s basically a
question of moral values and decency.
oh isn't all Clipper forums
“what could have gone better”
or
“why didn’t we do that”
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
Moral values, decency? And not dedicated?
I really don’t get that. His off-court indiscretions were not all that horrible… and not dedicated. The guy could barely jump, he learned how to score twenty points a game somewhere.
Ok you want to go that route!
While playing with Portland 2003 he was arrested with marijuana, then while he was playing with us 4/7/09 arrested
for Dui, also if you recall the Phoenix player he punched he
two games suspension and last year with the Grizzlies he
was accused of financing a major drug dealer in indianapolis
with cars register in his name with secret compartments.
Why you defend this guy is beyond me but he’s bad news.
And for on the court
while with the Portland Jail blazers
record 2003-2004 41-41
2004-2005 27-55
2005-2006 21-61
2006-2007 32-50
with the Knicks
record 2007-2008 23-59
with the Clips
record 2008-2009 19-63
with the Grizz
record 2009-2010 40-42
Do you see a patent here or do you want to defend this guy
anymore.
I would definitely want to defend the guy
but then I realize I’m not a criminal defense attorney so I can’t bill him for all those hours. Oh wells.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Oct 20, 2010 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Impressive list
I actually didn’t know about the secret compartments. How did that investigation go?
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
Details are on the Huffington post.
Just google Zach randolph financer for Drug Dealer.
I'll back off. I also never heard about the secret compartment thing...
His background leaves something to be desired no doubt. It’s that phrase that “moral issues” that riles me up. I criticized Carmelo heavily for his off the court activities but I don’t want to judge anyone on their “morality”.
The “not dedicated” is a different issue; I think both Melo and Zach are dedicated to their own offensive games tho not so much to the team game. Maybe I’m quibbling, not sure.
Don't forget the Amundson punch, as a Clipper
So maybe he hasn’t changed, he just had 1 year of not doing anything that bad, and he’s an All-Star. He’s not exactly out of the woods yet… if he has 3 more years of being good, then maybe he’s officially “reformed.”
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there."
-John Wooden
Oh jk, you mentioned Amundson
I kan reed gud
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there."
-John Wooden
The ZBo trade to the Clippers was awesome
with him helping the Clippers were able to get 19 wins. Had they only had 17 wins like the Kings they wouldn’t have ended up with the first pick in the draft. Too many ping pong balls is a bad thing.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Oct 20, 2010 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh please.
Posts like these made no sense. A large majority of Clippers fans (not myself) HATED MDSr. for acquiring Z-Bo, saying he ruined our cap situation to save his job.
Then when we won Griffin, everyone knew we had to dump Camby, Kaman, or Z-Bo. How many here would sit idly by and laud the Clippers for playing Griffin BEHIND Z-Bo.
Zach is a good, clutch player. But his passing makes Kaman look like Steve Nash, and I doubt we’d all be sitting pretty with Blake as a bench player.
Get real. Z-Bo isn’t walking through that door.
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on Oct 20, 2010 1:46 PM PDT reply actions
And credit to Dunleavy for easily moving an "albatross" contract without breaking a sweat.
Not to mention people hated on MEM for basically trading Pau for Randolph.
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on Oct 20, 2010 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions
what? you have some sort of revisionist history
Pau for Randolph?
So you are linking a trade that happened 3 years ago to one that happened last year and calling it a 1-1 swap?
You are bonkers. Bonkers I say!
We get it you don’t like ZBo… but you are just making stuff up now
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
GFP is right
The Grizz were trying to save money which is why they traded Pau (so the story goes). But then they go an add ZBo 18 months later for similar money? DTS better look over his shoulder, Heisley is gunning for his horns.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Oct 20, 2010 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Thank you, CC. You're totally getting me.
And for the record, I love Z-Bo. Just not on the Clippers when we have a LeBron-esque rookie ready to play the same position.
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on Oct 20, 2010 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions
no revisionist history again
Pau demanded a trade.
Memphis was not trying to save money.
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
It was for money
the Grizzlies were trying to make themselves more attractive to sell. Getting rid of a max contract would cut expenses down quite a bit.
And it doesn’t matter what Pau wanted, he was still under contract for 3 (or 4) more years. He had less leverage than Melo has now.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Oct 20, 2010 5:14 PM PDT up reply actions
More
This was a recent article on it.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-heisleygasol060308
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Oct 20, 2010 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions
That was the last sweetheart deal from Jerry West.
West helps bring in new Gm and suddenly the following year the Lakers get
Gasol for a bag of peanuts. Even when West wasn’t working directly for the
Lakers he was still facilitated some side deal.
I wonder
Did the Grizzlies always have those yellow highlights on their jerseys, or did Jerry introduce those?
I can just imagine: “You know what would look great with our blue jerseys? A little bit of gold… and some purple. No purple? Okay, just the gold…”
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there."
-John Wooden
you are such a liar
stop putting all these lies out on the internet to make you look smart
The Grizzlies sale that eventually fell through came in 06
How did this have to with anything the Pau Gasol trade, and saving money?
I have revealed you as a fraud 2 times in this thread.
I used to respect what you said, but the bad lying will just make me not pay attention to any of your blasphemous posts.
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
Liar?
I posted the articles where the sale etc was discussed, the Grizzlies have been on the block for awhile now. Here’s some more.
Here’s one from around the trade.
http://www.memphisflyer.com/memphis/grizzlies-sale/Content?oid=1142842
Another from 2009 when they were still trying to sell.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/rumors/post/Memphis-Grizzlies-for-sale-but-won-t-move?urn=nba-181817
The trade was suppose to save the Grizzlies money so they could be easier sell (hence the only established talent they got back was Kwame Brown’s expiring contract).
You need to relax, I’m definitely not a liar and I don’t need to post on a basketball blog to prove how smart I am.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Oct 21, 2010 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions
you are making crap up my friend
you have no proof that the Pau Gasol trade was made to save money.
In fact the article you post that says Heisley regrets the trade and questions whether or not he could have gotten more proves that it wasn’t a move strictly to cut salary.
If they were desperately trying to cut salary over the past couple of years, why would they add ZBo’s contract by trading expiring ones?
Why would they grossly overpay Rudy Gay?
stop it just admit you are wrong
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
Dude.
The Pau-Randolph trades weren’t directly linked per say. But the end result is that MEM gave Pau away, and then acquired an inferior player with a similar contract.
ClipperChuck, and everyone else who understands cause and effect, saw the MEM made a 360 move that put them right where they started (actually a few steps behind).
Calling him a “liar” for pointing out what I said as well is ridic, dude.
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on Oct 21, 2010 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions
he said it was about saving money
it wasn’t about saving money
if you can’t understand that stay out of it
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
Heh
you are walking down a dark path buddy.
“This trade will give us the ability to get the payroll in line. There is no mystery to it. I’m not dumb enough to think we got quality for quality for Pau. What we did was try to open up flexibility.”
Why did Heisley overpay Rudy Gay? I dunno, maybe the same reason they let their rookies miss SL and most of training camp trying to save peanuts (by NBA standards). Is the guy is weird a good enough answer?
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Oct 21, 2010 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Check mate.
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on Oct 21, 2010 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't remember Pau asking to be traded
do you have a link?
Maybe it was a behind the scenes thing, and who really knows for sure why they traded him for what (at least at the time) was considered peanuts. No one will ever know if it was a ‘pat on the back’ deal by West.
But really they only way they could justify that was as a salary dump. Maybe they really thought Pau got them as far as they could get with him, and it was time to rebuild. Seems like they were on a youth movement at the time with Gay, conley, lowry, etc. Pau had gotten injured the year before, and they had a pretty bad year. I don’t think they were doing much better in 2008, and maybe they thought he was going to be another injury prone player the rest of his career. A salary dump is pretty much the common thought on the matter, if there are other conspiracy theories, I try and not get involved in all that.
Wasn't suggesting we trade for Randolph now...
Just trying to look at what might have happened had we not dumped him.
We were bad with Z-bo and we're still bad without!
We traded for Z-bo for a bag of peanuts and i think we got a couple of players who are
decent in Smith & Butler. I guess with guys like Randolph and even Carmelo for that
matter it depends if you don’t care about the baggage they bring with them. With the
great franchises you see management unloads these guys because the bad usually
out weighs the good. I say lets see what the future brings and forget about the past
because that’s history.
Thinking about it little more i would of........
tried to resign Gooden, blake and when we had Mike miller in here sign him for more
money than the peanuts that miami is paying him. Then we don’t sign Gomes, Foye
and Cook. Since we have a nice back up point guard we don’t trade that 1st rounder
to Portland for Bledsoe.
First team Second team
Kaman Deandre/Gooden
Griffin Smith/Gooden
Miller Butler/aminu
Gordon Butler/Willie
Davis Blake
A couple of scrubs and we set.
we would still have about 2mil left on the cap.
Now tell me this team doesn’t look better than what we have now.
We all knew that Lebron was just a dream.
winning teams don't care about baggage it's all about talent
Bulls = Rodman
Lakers = Artest
Celtics = Nate Robinson, Sheed
I am sure there are a ton of examples I could go on
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
But those teams
Have always had star veterans with strong personalities in leadership roles to make sure that the player with baggage and the rest of the team stayed in check.
Bulls = Jordan
Lakers = Kobe
Celtics = KG, PP, RA
Clippers = BD? Kaman? Not quite the same.
Camby and BD are very good vets
Camby was there to deal with Melo when he did his back pedal punch. JR Smith as well. Not to mention Iverson.
BD was there with a whole bunch of nut cases and was able to help keep them together; SJax and Matt Barnes.
If you want a win you take a risk with baggage when it comes along with talent.
“Championships are won at the back of the bus” – Joe Dumars
It isn’t about whether or not a guy is bat crazy, it is a matter if a guy can get along with his teammates, and is trusted by his teammates. I have never heard of reports where ZBo was a bad teammate.
Find me and article saying specifically he was a bad teammate and I’ll eat crow.
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
Ruben Patterson disagrees
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Oct 20, 2010 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2003-04-04/sports/0304040467_1_randolph-artest-outburst
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by ClipperChuck on Oct 20, 2010 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions
oh god are you serious?
you know everyone in the world think Patterson is a horrible team mate
you are so revisionist history with things
Zbo was defending Woods LOL you lose
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20030404/ai_n11390295/
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
So punching a teammate is okay
if you are defending another teammate? Shouldn’t he be separating them and not punching them?
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Oct 21, 2010 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions
oh please
teammates always get in fights
ZBo defending a teammate shows everything you need to know about the situation
again you are wrong just admit it
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
Right
Its pretty common for guys to get suspended by their own team and fined 100k for fights with teammates.
“While these types of disagreements happen in practice during the course of a season due to the physical and competitive nature of basketball,” Blazers president and general manager Bob Whitsitt said in a statement released by the team, “this instance and this type of behavior will not be tolerated by our organization without the individuals being held accountable for their actions.”
So yea, to get that elevated is not the norm.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Oct 21, 2010 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions
oh please
how he violated team rules so he got punished
but he was there to defend a teammate, how do you think that looks in the eyes of teammates?
you are dense
again there is no proof that he is not liked by teammates, stop tiptoeing around the issue
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
You asked for a example
and I found a clear case where he wasn’t a good teammate. In fact based on the article you provide it sounds as if ZBo punched Patterson while he was being held by 2 other teammates.
By the way the whole teammates having to like each other is probably overblown. MJ eviscerated his teammates to the brink of tears. Pippen and Rodman barely talked (carry over from the Bad Boys feud). Shaq and Kobe. I’m sure there are many successful companies and people where not everyone gets along.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Oct 21, 2010 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions
I second that.
“At the time he was hit, Patterson was being held by two other teammates trying to prevent him from going after Woods.”
Good post, swami. You've obviously been eating your blueberries.
Lots of vitamins for provocative ideas, along with seeing things that aren’t there. :-)
I’m excited about having Aminu now, and I’m inclined to believe the Clipper line that a positive team culture is paramount. So I prefer the reality that we have. With Zach around, we may have had a better shot at the playoffs this year, but then we wouldn’t have that OKC feeling of building as a squad towards a much brighter future. I’m OK with not making the playoffs this year as long as we’re sticking to a longer term plan. Importantly, that includes resigning our productive players and so going above the salary cap when the time comes (assuming a similar CBA). If we’re just going to replay the whole cycle in a couple of years, then this whole thing is pointless, and yeah, we might as well have kept Randolph.
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
As I said, I was just musing... and I thought the trade should be looked at it again...
It’s funny to me that so many people hate the idea of keeping Randolph but are so on fire about bringing in Carmelo. They both have some bad history and some bad habits but Carmelo’s seem worse than Zach’s. But when you needed a bucket, Randolph could work that right baseline like nobody’s business. I enjoyed him while he was here. The Clips weren’t good that year, Baron was bad, Kaman was out most of the second half, Gordon was just starting to figure it out. I thought Randolph was a bit of a bright light. The “cancer in the clubhouse” thing never seemed real and the players seemed to like him but I’m operating from an obviously limited POV.
I certainly was not suggesting we bring him back. I think everyone’s feeling a little better about Aminu since last night and hopefully Griffin’s all that he appears to be. We’ve moved on.
It is interesting that Randolph would be an expiring deal this year and perhaps very valuable. It’s also important to remember that when ZR was traded the Clippers were not yet in that salary-dumping all-for-Lebron mode. They had to shed a lot more salary before that was gonna work, Randolph or not.
As I also pointed out, Randolph’s contract, up this year, would have little effect on signing players for the future. You simply have to make some choices.
The worse part of my argument is that bit where I tried to envision he, Kaman, and Griffin on the floor together… but I was also imagining a team that still had Thornton and Butler. A bit of a stretch I guess… but that’s a pretty flexible team.
Zach vs Melo
Yeah, both are huge contracts with huge offensive games, and both have some baggage. My impression was that Zach’s attitude on D was contagious in a bad way. At least that was the popular wisdom, and if so, then he’s not our guy. If Melo is the same way, then good riddance to him as well. I confess that I’m just tempted by the notion… Carmelo has some qualities we really need, esp as he’s a scoring and rebounding 3, plus unlike Zach he’s seen as a winner. I think he’d give us instance legitimacy, for whatever that’s worth. But his price tag would certainly stir up some big buyer’s remorse. I only get excited by the idea when the press starts a new round of speculation.
It’s true that Zach would have been coming off the books this year, but I’m skeptical how far that would have gotten us. We might have traded him before the deadline for a few prospects, which would have left us approximately where we are now. We might have been left with space to go after free agents, but would our team image have been positive enough to lure real talent? I don’t know, there are too many variables there for my tastes.
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
Hmm
I’ve never been a big fan of Melo’s (I was arguing with Jax that I he’s more Danny Granger than Lebron) but he serves a few functions, he can sell tickets, he’s a talented scorer (with bad shot selection) and he’s a known quantity (as opposed to all our youthful question marks). For the right price then Melo is definitely welcome here but having to trade a bunch of valuable assets would definitely diminish the need for him.
As far as ZBo goes, he got a arrested for DUI and a fight in his short stay here. Hardly model behavior. He’s definitely a bit of a knucklehead and he’d be a potential problem right now as he’s asking for a Pau Gasol-like extension. Good luck with that ZBo.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Oct 20, 2010 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions
I would not give Zach a big extension.
Of course I wouldn’t give Melo one either. Too much potential cap damage down the line.
I don't have a problem with the Z-Bo trade...
but we should have never traded Camby. It was pointless at the time, and now we have a big hole at backup Center.
"look, you can find any coach you want, bring him in here and run the situation. But I don't think they are going to do as good a job as I do." -Mike Dunleavy Sr.
i think we could have traded to OKC
for the pick that end up being bledsoe
Except OKC didn't own that pick at the time
OKC got that pick in a trade with Miami after the Camby deal. I completely agree we could and should have gotten more for Camby than a couple of rental players and cash, but then I wasn’t the one who got to keep the cash.

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