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White Clippers 39 - Blue Clippers 32

I made the trip down to Camp Pendleton today to get a real look at this edition of the Clippers; in Playa Vista I haven't gotten to see them do more than shoot some jumpers and stretch. 

I'm not going to do a traditional game recap here.  D.J. Foster was sitting next to me at the scrimmage, we chatted most of the time, his recap is already up and says most of what I would have said.  So I'll try to cover some new territory.

In case you didn't bother to click over there, I will say that the White starters were Chris Kaman, Brian Cook, Ryan Gomes, Rasual Butler and Eric Bledsoe; Jarron Collins and Stephen Dennis came off the White bench, and Craig Smith (back) and Willie Warren (groin) were in the White layup line, but did not play while they nursed injuries.  Dean Demopolous coached White.

Star-divide

Starting for Blue the Clippers had DeAndre Jordan, Blake Griffin, Al-Farouq Aminu, Eric Gordon and Randy Foye; Jon Scheyer, Jake Voskuhl and Marqus Blakely were the reserves, and Baron Davis was wearing Blue, but sat with an ice pack on his left knee when the game started.  Marc Iavaroni coached Blue.

Looking at the layup lines, D.J.Foster  quipped "Well, we know who's going to win," and indeed Blue did look pretty loaded, with three of the marquee Clippers, plus Jordan and Aminu.  Of course, the fact that Davis didn't play changed the equation a bit, and in fact White took control early and never trailed after they took a 7-6 lead (they played two 20 minute halves with a running clock - so it was easily less than a half of NBA basketball in the end).

Individually, there was good news and bad news:

The Good

Chris Kaman looked terrific and was unstoppable early.  He scored 10 of White's first 15 points and Blue more or less never recovered.  Unfortunately, it's difficult to disentangle Kaman's good from Jordan's bad (see below), but White won the game mainly by winning the center position.  I had Kaman making 4 of his first 5 field goals, while also recording a sweet block of an Eric Gordon layup.  He looks to be in mid-season form.

The difference between Eric Bledsoe in summer league and today is night and day.  Watching him today, we saw some of the tantalizing athleticism (he got to the rim easily on more than one occasion, and absolutely froze Jon Scheyer in his tracks on one crossover), and none (well, almost none) of the silly mistakes.  When he got in the lane, he had a plan, and there's little question that he led all players in assists, though I was not tracking those specifically.  I've been assuming that Bledsoe was not going to help this season - after today, I'm not so sure.

Ryan Gomes was one of the few players who really played within himself, which is exactly what Neil Olshey has been saying is his greatest strength.  He missed his first two shots, but they were both good looks, and by my count he made his last three, finishing with 7 points.  He played defense, he rebounded - he's clearly got the inside track to be the starter at the three when the season starts.

Before the final 10 minutes of play, I would have had Eric Gordon in the bad category, but he really turned it on late.  With Randy Foye running the point at the start of the game, Gordon was coming off screens and looking to shoot, but was more or less a non-factor.  Late in the game, Blue put the ball in Gordon's hands and the game turned around.  A squad that was having trouble finding good shots, suddenly was getting dunks and layups (or Gordon jumpers, which is a good thing too).  On the final five Blue possessions of the game, Gordon assisted DJ for a monster slam and a layup, got the ball to Griffin for a dunk attempt which resulted in a foul and two free throws, and made a three and a mid range jumper.  On a sixth, he came off a screen, split the double team, and lobbed to DJ - whether the lob was too quick or DJ's jump was too slow, they didn't connect, but it was nonetheless another impressive play made by Gordon.  It was easily the best I've seen of EJ as creator/facilitator, and even if it was just in a scrimmage, it was great to see. 

The Bad

Blake Griffin, I'm sorry to say, did not have a great game.  He finished with 6 points, on 1 for 6 shooting (all shooting numbers are just my notes - in general, the makes are probably right, and the attempts are low if they're wrong - I may have failed to record a miss, but I doubt I made one up).  The White defense decided to play off him and force him to prove he could make a 17 footer before they would give him the chance to drive.  He didn't prove anything.  He was ohfer on jump shots, most of the time missing pretty badly.  Just so we're clear, I'm not concerned about Blake Griffin - he's going to be a very effective pro, rebounding and running and hustling if nothing else.  But he's going to struggle on offense until he can keep defenses honest with a passable jump shot.  I will say this on the plus side - watching Griffin dunk in warmups, he appears to be as explosive as he ever was.  He remains an absolutely breathtaking athlete.

Brian Cook made two layups that were created for him by other players and was otherwise terrible shooting the ball.  I had him missing all seven jumpers he took, and remember that if anything I'm underreporting misses.  He was not good.  Nor was he shy.  He led all players in field goal attempts in my score book.  Yikes.

Rasual Butler was ohfer Camp Pendleton and was pretty much a non-factor.

Jon Scheyer was overmatched out there.  I hate to play into what seems like a cliche, but it happens to be true in this case - he just doesn't have the athleticism to play at this level.  When he tried to guard Bledsoe, he didn't have the lateral quickness to stay in front of him.  When he tried to guard bigger players, he didn't have the strength.  When defenders closed out on his jumper, he didn't have the athleticism to drive past and create in the lane.  When I first saw his name on the training camp list, I thought he had an outside chance of making the team.  After today, I see no way.  Not now.

DeAndre Jordan was probably the biggest disappointment for me.  Yes, he was among the leading scorers with 8 points, including two monster slams (and he even went 2 for 2 at the line).  But his points all came on finishing plays at the rim that others created for him.  Meanwhile, he had a slew of turnovers and was overmatched by Kaman in the post.  He still looks about as raw as he did as a rookie - where is the progress?

The Others

I'm going to give the rest of the players a mixed review.

AFA, like Bledsoe, looked significantly better than he did in Las Vegas.  He had a couple of plays that demonstrated what he might be able to do - a steal where he led the break (he failed to finish, but drew a foul), and a drive from the wing where he surprised everyone with a last second jam.  He also missed every shot he took that wasn't a dunk, mostly pretty badly.

I thought Randy Foye looked pretty good - but I can't get over how much Blue struggled with him at the point, and how much better they were when Gordon took over the playmaking duties.  Foye did make some nice plays for his teammates, and it looks like he's going to be a solid if unspectacular option at both guard spots this year.

When the Clippers signed Stephen Dennis to the camp roster, I said the scorers are scorers, no matter what level they play at, and sure enough, the kid put the ball in the basket today.  He was a lights out shooter - he just made the shots that came his way, mostly an array of floaters and mid range jumpers.  He also had one transition dunk that showed some sneaky athleticism.  He's long and has a loping gait, but he's quicker than I thought.  He's not going to make the team, but he's got a chance to stick in the NBA at some point.

Speaking of who's going to make the team, you'd have to give the edge to Jarron Collins over Jake Voskuhl in the third center race based on today.  Really, there are two ways to look at this scrimmage as concerns that third big.  One is to say that neither of these 10 year vets are worth the bother - they're both extremely limited.  Then again, watching Jordan struggle, you have to wonder if you don't need a vet to back up Kaman, or in case of injury.  Collins was active on the offensive glass, keeping several balls alive for White when Blue was trying to mount a comeback behind Gordon.  Collins also made Blake Griffin work hard.  Neither guy did a lot, but Collins did more so he takes the lead for now.

As we've mentioned before, if the Clippers do keep one of the vet centers, then it probably means they'll cut either Willie Warren or Marqus Blakely.  Warren rested his strained groin, so I couldn't watch him today.  As for Blakely, he probably played fewer minutes than any other healthy Clipper.  I don't know exactly what that means, but it doesn't seem like a good thing.  He got very little opportunity, and didn't do much when he was out there.

In sum, it's a mixed message for the state of the team, but it's not too hard to make an optimistic case that things are in good shape.  In the starting lineup, Kaman, Gordon and Gomes looked good; Griffin struggled, but I just don't think that anyone's too worried about him - he'll be fine.  Baron is of course a concern, having missed essentially all of training camp, and we didn't get any answers there today.  But if Baron is OK, then the starting lineup is looking pretty good.  The bench needs work, but there's talent there.

We'll find out more Tuesday night in Portland.
 

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They'll be fine

They gotta find a good rhythm together

by BIG_RICK_213 on Oct 3, 2010 10:26 PM PDT reply actions  

Sounds like Kaman is going to continue to make progress from his All-star season last year....hopefully all of the players will mesh well together

Kaman: He is our one constant post player that we know what to expect every game. You can pretty much put 16 and 8 in the stat book before Kaman even takes the court. I hope he knows that his points will come even easier this year if he passes the ball out of double teams and recognizes where the defense is when he gets the ball in the post.

Gordon: It is good to hear EJ is making plays and in this game wanting the ball in his hands. With an aging veteran point guard in Davis and a rookie point guard in Bledsoe, EJ might have to make more plays than he has had to in his previous two seasons. I am expecting a big season from EJ. I see no reason why he can’t be an 18, 4, and 4 guy.

Griffin: This is Blake’s first live 5 on 5 game since 2009. There is a reason for the missed jumpers and a lack of assertiveness. I am sure once he learns to trust his body, the skills that we saw in the 2009 Summer League will shine through. He is still my pick for ROY.

Gomes: This guy might just be the wild card on the Clippers. He can rebound, defend, shoot, and he has size. He isn’t Lebron James, but he does bring the size and the all around game that Lebron possesses…ok, maybe not the exact overall game, but Gomes does do alot of things well. He, Butler and Aminu will provide what the Clippers need from the 3 spot.

by NBAFAN8 on Oct 3, 2010 10:50 PM PDT reply actions  

Sounds good

Encouraging to hear a good report on Bledsoe, many have written him off but the reality is he’s still a mid first round pick who could be any kind.

by ghost_ride on Oct 3, 2010 11:55 PM PDT reply actions  

Both Bled and Gomes

For Bled that’s why you really can’t criticize 19 year olds based on summer league.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Oct 4, 2010 12:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

Much better to praise him based on a scrimmage?

"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins

"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.

by John R on Oct 4, 2010 9:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

well played sir

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Oct 4, 2010 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

not really well played

Jax didn’t really praise them. Just expanded on ghost_ride’s opinion that it’s encouraging to hear a good report on Bled and Gomes. And I take it he was saying: save the criticism for the regular games.

by Polish Rifle on Oct 4, 2010 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

And then when those games start

It will be, well we have to give them a year.

Then another year.

Then another.

Then…

"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins

"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.

by John R on Oct 4, 2010 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Just a little optimism?

I think when a player looks “night and day different,” according to multiple sources that were generally pretty critical of him in summer league, that means something. At this point, there appears to be more reason to be hopeful than to expect the scrimmage to be nothing but a fluke.

"I wish I was a baller."
-Skee-Lo

by Erik O on Oct 4, 2010 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

John R

Doesn’t know the meaning of optimism. It’s just one of those things.

Blake Griffin.

by losbolts on Oct 4, 2010 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

I know what the word means

But I find it distasteful. Huge difference.

"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins

"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.

by John R on Oct 4, 2010 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Optimism is distasteful?

Then what’s the point of watching sports at all, if not to hope that you get to see some good basketball? It’s hard to imagine a Clipper fan that doesn’t harbor a certain amount of optimism.

"I wish I was a baller."
-Skee-Lo

by Erik O on Oct 4, 2010 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

I will see some good basketball

Regardless of the fate of Bledsoe.

"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins

"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.

by John R on Oct 4, 2010 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think I understand

You prefer to focus your enjoyment on the good basketball being played now, rather than the potential of future good basketball to maybe possibly be played in the future, at some point yet to be determined, hypothetically. I can dig that.

For me, what I most enjoy is seeing my team playing that good basketball. Since our team hasn’t played good basketball in quite some time, I have only the potential for good basketball to cling onto (until Oct 27). It’s unhealthy, I realize, but such is the life of a basketball addict.

"I wish I was a baller."
-Skee-Lo

by Erik O on Oct 4, 2010 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

There will be good basketball

That doesn’t require optimism. The team last year was playing some good basketball too.

The question for is do these pieces moves us from good basketball to great basketball? (55+ wins)

I don’t see how. And if not, what are they contributing but a new batch of kids to cheer for? This is where I disembark. That’s sucker Clippers fan stuff.

"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins

"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.

by John R on Oct 4, 2010 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hmm

You make a good point about the futility of constantly hinging our enjoyment of this team on the potential of some 19 year-olds, rather than the talents of our 25+ year-olds.

"I wish I was a baller."
-Skee-Lo

by Erik O on Oct 4, 2010 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

I see your point

When should one heap criticism or praise on a player?

Although I do think any time before the regular season is silly when trying to analyze a player that season, giving a player multiple years would make sense if analyzing a player’s entire career.

by Polish Rifle on Oct 4, 2010 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think looking at it as criticism or praise misses the point a bit

I think when you have a college season with all of its stats, and then you look at those stats and say this probably projects to this as a pro, and then summer league happens and through those games you can say yup that’s what the college numbers suggested, you have a pattern.

I don’t think that is rushing to judge at all. And all of that is projection. Some players will beat those odds, but most will succumb to them. Is the idea that we aren’t supposed to say anything about a player until they have played 246 NBA games?

Its just a description of the situation thus far. Its not really criticism or praise. That can come as the result of given play. But there is plenty to think about when looking at the significant (though not completely conclusive) data at hand.

"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins

"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.

by John R on Oct 4, 2010 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

What's well played?

That the guy misses my point?

Q Did I praise anyone?

A No

Seems like a pretty low standard.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Oct 4, 2010 9:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

This comment doesn't make any sense.

Talk about missing the point…

"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins

"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.

by John R on Oct 4, 2010 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Actually your attempt to defend yourself mischaracterized what I said

(not surprisingly), and Steve unfortunately fell for it.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Oct 4, 2010 9:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

No, I am sure we both understood your words

What did I have to defend myself against, in your mind? You didn’t address me, did you?

"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins

"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.

by John R on Oct 4, 2010 10:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Actually you are just on here to argue and tell everyone how smart you think you are

Your act is NOT well played at all.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Oct 4, 2010 10:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

I believe the internet term is

QQ mor

"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins

"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.

by John R on Oct 4, 2010 10:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

If you say so, my man, if you say so

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Oct 4, 2010 10:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm glad to read more analysis from the scrimmage

The news on Kaman is great. Just as Gordon has become more confident and mature after his participation with Team USA, Kaman’s confidence has continued to grow as well. He’s one of the most offensively gifted true centers in the league and he’s entering his prime. I enjoyed reading what he had to say the other day about his earlier role with the Clippers. I’m hoping that the combination of he and Griffin in the frontcourt will allow him to focus more on rebounds and playing defense as he did at earlier points of his career.

It’s great to hear that Gordon looked pretty good as a playmaker today. I was little concerned about his progress in that area given his role on the US team. He may draw a little more attention on the defensive end, but he’s still a huge threat because of his strength, quickness and outside shot. If he’s able to improve his ability to set up his teammates, then opposing teams are really going to have their work cut out for them.

The Bledsoe news was also good. He has amazing physical tools to excel at point guard, but the skill and mindset must be there as well. If he’s able to prove competent at running an offense for a few minutes at a time, then our backcourt should work really well. Foye is more of a scorer, but he’s likely going to see some time with Baron & EJ, and possibly Bledsoe. So if EJ and Bledsoe are able to hold their own, then having a couple combo guards on the floor at the same time isn’t that bad.

"Chris Kaman IS Black Sikma" - KamanHomie, Steve Perrin & swamigusto

by Lawler 4ever on Oct 3, 2010 11:57 PM PDT reply actions  

sidelined players

I hope Baron will be able to join the team very soon (today), he needs to build confidence and chemistry with the new guys.
Same thing for Rhino, he is going to be vital on the offensive side this year, besides Kaman he is our only proven low-post threat.

by ClipperIt on Oct 4, 2010 6:56 AM PDT reply actions  

disappointing passage

DeAndre Jordan was probably the biggest disappointment for me. Yes, he was among the leading scorers with 8 points, including two monster slams (and he even went 2 for 2 at the line). But his points all came on finishing plays at the rim that others created for him. Meanwhile, he had a slew of turnovers and was overmatched by Kaman in the post. He still looks about as raw as he did as a rookie – where is the progress?

by Joe Wolf's Mullet on Oct 4, 2010 7:38 AM PDT reply actions  

i asked that question all last season...

i was hoping i wouldn’t be asking it again this time around.

by Joe Wolf's Mullet on Oct 4, 2010 7:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm beginning to think that this is it for him.

He hasn’t shown an ounce of progress since his rookie year.

by Newton Pham on Oct 4, 2010 9:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

Its an unrealistic expectation

Players don’t “progress”.

"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins

"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.

by John R on Oct 4, 2010 9:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

Sorry:

while some players do progress, I never saw or thought it was the case with Jordan and don’t understand why so many people where on his bandwagon. Even the thought of trading away Kaman to get Carmelo was bad in my book because DJ isn’t even a solid 2nd string center. He tries hard but it’s just not there, it’s not clicking and by now you either got it or you don’t and he doesn’t.

Why did we sign Brian Cook again? Can the new Fire Dunleavy be Fire the Cook?

by chrisd on Oct 4, 2010 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think Jordan will be fine

The expectations just have to be reasonable. Good backup center seems about right.

This is a great example of the superiority of stats. He puts up 11 and 11 per 36 minutes on 62% shooting. Once you strip out the expectation of a guy who will “progress” and become someone who is a critical part of the offense, you can say that 11 and 11 on 62% shooting is a great thing to have holding down the fort for 13 minutes.

Not every team can be Portland and just come with top tier centers three dudes deep. They have $24M tied up there and that’s with one of them on his rookie scale.

"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins

"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.

by John R on Oct 4, 2010 10:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

On progress

How does the argument on progress play out with Kaman?

I find Kaman really interesting right now, going into the season. I’m still prepping, I guess, for a deeper analysis, and going into the different stages of Kaman.

And it seems like it would be worthwhile to use Kaman’s first three years as a comparison for Jordan, even though they’re very different players. Jordan happens to be very good at one of Kaman’s biggest weaknesses, finishing at the rim. Kaman established basic credibility by being a solid rebounder, and that was something he was always good at. Jordan should be similar, and if he can just rebound aggressively and play okay defense he’ll be fine. I’m also hoping that Jordan benefits from playing with Griffin, but we’ll see.

by citizen zhiv on Oct 4, 2010 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

okay

Now I’ve done some checking and know a little bit more about what I was trying to talk about. Didn’t realize that Kaman’s (and the Clippers) big year was in his 3rd season. A big part of it was just being out on the floor, and not limited by injuries.

A good argument can be made that Kaman hasn’t progressed so much as that he was healthier and played more minutes. It’s also very interesting to consider his own self-awareness about having a different role, how he was able to thrive (on the boards, on defense) playing alongside the highly productive FElton that year.

And I can see how Jordan is aimed at being a backup. It’d be nice if he could rebound more this year and hit over 50% from the line. Doesn’t seem to be too much to ask, and hitting some free throws would help him in all sorts of ways.

by citizen zhiv on Oct 4, 2010 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

His rebound numbers are pretty good from a per36 standpoint.

My biggest concern continues to be his ability to get into foul trouble almost immediately upon entering the game. That will kill this team because it will force VDN to either bring Kaman back in on short rest, play the 3rd string C, or play some sort of modified small lineup.

by Michael White on Oct 4, 2010 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

We would like to see fewer fouls

And a higher FT%. Jordan isn’t perfect. Far from it. But the total package is appropriate for a backup C.

If he was better, he would be more expensive, and therefore a starter on another team.

"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins

"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.

by John R on Oct 4, 2010 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Right

Dollar for dollar, he’s a great backup. All the hype only serves to make him cost more, for no reason at all. We should do our best to un-hype him… but how…

"I wish I was a baller."
-Skee-Lo

by Erik O on Oct 4, 2010 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

05-06 was either best or second best depending on how you rate 07-08

Then 06-07 was his worst and single-handedly caused the Clippers to miss the playoffs.

What to make of this through the lens of progress? Progress then unprogress?

How about this theory: Age 23 and 24 is going to be the height of your NBA athleticism and 05-06 was effectively a contract year for Kaman.

Just like everyone else we see age and contract status as among the most prominent factors in Kaman’s “progress”.

"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins

"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.

by John R on Oct 4, 2010 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

What about poor on court judgement

being a turnover machine and having bad help defense and missed rotations?

by Newton Pham on Oct 4, 2010 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

He is a turnover machine?

He commits less than Kaman per36.

This is where style points starts to blind. Jordan only makes the easy plays, but he makes those dunks every time. Kaman has been frustrating because he seems to never make the easy plays and tends to make some hard ones which frustrates in its own way.

In the end, both players average out to what they do. Its only style points that frustrates.

"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins

"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.

by John R on Oct 4, 2010 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Because he would get the ball less and would never play 40 mins

Dumb comparison

I’m sure Steve will say this was well played.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Oct 4, 2010 9:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

Cry more?

Clearly you don’t understand the meaning of the words I wrote.

Not your fault. I blame your Finnish schooling.

"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins

"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.

by John R on Oct 4, 2010 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Don't you have something better to do? Oh, wait

You are pretty feisty tonight. Off the meds are we?

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Oct 4, 2010 10:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

So you surrender already?

Thought you could sneak in some comments on an old thread unchallenged?

I’ll add coward to the list.

"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins

"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.

by John R on Oct 4, 2010 10:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Seriously, I'm concerned about your mental state

Seems like you’re just trying to increase page reads – just go climb back under the rock.

I’m sorry your boy was fired.

I’m sorry things are looking up for the Clippers.

I’m sorry that all your predictions about the Clippers over the past few years have been proven wrong.

You’re just going to have to get over it.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Oct 4, 2010 10:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sad to see you so down on Deandre though

Perhaps you should wait until the games that matter.

"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins

"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.

by John R on Oct 4, 2010 9:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

I've seen enough of him

Doubt he’ll ever be a good NBA player. There’s a reason he fell so far in the draft.

Just like there’s a reason your boy MDSr screwed up when he picked Thornton who had fallen so far.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Oct 4, 2010 10:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Jordan was a mistake

I’ll add it to the list of absurd things you have said.

"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins

"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.

by John R on Oct 4, 2010 10:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

There you go again

I didn’t say Jordan was a mistake.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Oct 4, 2010 10:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

But he will never be a good NBA player

Interesting.

They probably have great medicines for schizophrenia these days.

"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins

"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.

by John R on Oct 4, 2010 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Right - after seeing him play the past few years

I’ve formed an opinion about the guy.

Go figure.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Oct 4, 2010 10:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

11 and 11?

It’s like a poor man’s Okafor: generally equal or worse at everything, but is athletic, makes like 10% more of his shots and doesn’t have a hideous contract.

"I wish I was a baller."
-Skee-Lo

by Erik O on Oct 4, 2010 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

Maybe. In certain spots when Kaman gets in early foul trouble and you can afford to go small with Griffin and Smith. But most of the time you’ll need a competent backup to give Kaman a breather (seemed like Dunleavy was forced to rely heavily on Kaman last year because of Jordan) but you can’t just ride Griffin into the ground either.

by Michael White on Oct 4, 2010 8:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

We have a lot of potential 4's

Craig Smith, Gomes, and AFA in addition to Blake Griffin. You’d think you’d have to find a way to get these guys on the floor ahead of whoever they might pick as a 3rd center. At the same time, I have to agree with the conservative approach to BG’s minutes, and what they ask him to do. Will be an interesting situation to watch. Minutes at the 3/4/5 will be a significant task for Del Negro to figure out.

by ghost_ride on Oct 4, 2010 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

If a small school guy can play, why not?

I keep reading good things about Stephen Dennis but it seems like he is being a little overlooked because he has the D2 behind his name instead of one of the D1 schools. The Clippers have filled their rosters for years with first round picks from big schools but still have not been competitive. If this kid can really play lets forget where he came from and sign him up. He seems to keep catching the writers eye so he must do something well. If you think he can stick in the NBA then why not stick with this team. It’s not like we won the championship last year. A 6’6 guy that can play both guard postions is not a bad thing at all. If he’s long, athletic, quick, and can shoot then lets sign him up, instead of saying we are surprised and letting him contribute to some other team. I mean really if he had Duke or whatever behind his name and playing the same exact way, he would prob be drafted and we would be talking about how well he is coming a long in summer camp. Maybe it’s time for the Clips to start thinking outside the box a little. Also I hear this kid is Rip Hamiltion of the Detroit Pistons cousin. Isn’t there somethin to be said about Pedigree. It worked for Vince Carter and Tracy Mcgrady so maybe we found a diamond in the ruff. I say we give the kid a shot if he continues to do well.

by BigTank on Oct 4, 2010 9:23 AM PDT reply actions  

roster math

Who do you not keep? And by the way, I saw nothing yesterday to indicate the Dennis can play the one. He was strictly off the ball. The dude can score… but there are at most 2 spots available, and Voskuhl, Collins, Blakely (with some guaranteed $), and Warren (with more guaranteed $) also vying for them. Realistically, I think Dennis is going to have to go tear up the D-League for awhile before he gets his crack at the big time.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Oct 4, 2010 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

Roster Math

Why not cut Warren if he really isn’t doing anything to stand out He’s still living of of the hype of his being a Mcdonalds All American and his play on Oklahoma a couple of years ago. His contract isn’t guaranteed and that 100,000 isn’t hurting anyone if he’s cut. I like Blakely but it seems like he’s falling. Honestly he can jump but he’s a bit undersized for the forward position. Charles Barkley at 6’4 was an anomaly. Another partially guaranteed contract. I did some further research on this kid and he was a PG at Kutztown. Not only is he the alltime leader in pts, but he is the all time leader in assists as well. And on the all time leader list in steals and blocks. That’s right, blocks. He seems to rebound well to by the look of his career numbers. I say take a chance and think out of the box. We are talking about the end of the roster if this kid is outplaying both of the second round draftees then give him the spot. I believe Devaun George was D3 when he was drafted. He wasn’t a bad player for the lakers. Good franchises are wiling to take good chances and sometimes you have to pick the obvious. I dont’ care what school any of these guys went to if they can play ball. If the kid can score then again explain to me how that is a problem.

by BigTank on Oct 4, 2010 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Warren is Griffin's boy

and the Clips will want to keep the franchise player happy, even if it is at a loss to the team. We’re talking about a bench player anyways basically (of course with our injury history whoever that spot goes to will get more PT than Brian Cook).

by chrisd on Oct 4, 2010 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

So what

I doubt Blake needs Warren on the team to be happy. Blake is not that type of player and he’s eager to prove something himself. He’s not Dennis Rodman. We may be talking about a bench player or we may be talking about someone who can contribute. 26 players were called up from the D league last year and some of them contributed rather nicely. If we were the lakers then maybe, but as the clippers we should not be ruling anyone out. Lets try something new instead of doing the same thing that has gotten us nowhere.

by BigTank on Oct 4, 2010 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Waive Cookie

Not that it’s my $1.4 million, but I say take the financial hit and cut Cook to keep someone with potential down the road.

by J-Luggy on Oct 4, 2010 8:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

I would agree with that if it is possible

"It's better to be an optimist who is sometimes wrong than a pessimist who is always right"unknown

by bestclipfan on Oct 4, 2010 9:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

if it's any consolation

the teams that traded cook, made the finals shortly after. Maybe I’ll have to choose the rockets to make it out of the west this year, haha. We can trade him in December, maybe it’ll break the ‘curse’.

by osamu on Oct 5, 2010 2:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

To sign Dennis you would have to cut

Willie Warren (had a lottery pick year alongside Blake Griffin), Blakely who tore it up in summer league and is also a scorer and a backup center.

by Newton Pham on Oct 4, 2010 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

I like Warren then but.........

He should have been better last year can’t use Blake as an excuse.

by BigTank on Oct 4, 2010 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm curious what warren brings to the table

I barely remember him doing anything in SL. I was hoping he’d bring back his game that almost made him a lottery pick, but I haven’t heard much about warren at all which is kind of worrying. I thought he’d prove to be a steal in the 2nd round and was a good pickup w/ that pick even w/ guys like caracter and robinson still on the board.

by osamu on Oct 4, 2010 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

True

I really liked him two years ago at OU but that was two years ago. Good bball players are found everywhere, and some aren’t even drafted. Take a look at a guy like Raja Bell originally signed by the Spurs ( another team that does well late in the draft). Bell wasn’t drafted but a decent NBA player. All he needed was a team to give him a chance and the sixers did just that. That’s why I say just put the best players on the team period. Sports just aren’t sports anymore. Too much politics. There is a reason why the Lakers are continuously a good team. They know where to look for players.

Derrick Fisher(Arkansas-Little Rock)

by BigTank on Oct 4, 2010 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

also........

Blakely did do well in summer league and I love his athleticism but lets not forget that there weren’t many formiddable big men in summer league. it was a guards summer league

by BigTank on Oct 4, 2010 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Good for EJ

At this point, isn’t Baron’s presence hurting EJ’s development? Baron has proven himself to be one of the best PG’s in the league … 6 years ago. I would feel better if we gave EJ more opportunities to develop as a playmaker and expand his game. Baron seems to be more concerned with off court activities at this point…

by dumpleavy on Oct 4, 2010 9:28 AM PDT reply actions  

no way

EJ hasn’t proven to have the handle that can be reliable against top wing defenders.

One of the biggest problems the Clips had last year was turnovers, EJ is still miles behind Baron in terms of TO%

Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas

by bacek on Oct 4, 2010 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

Nice post

Any notes on what the crowd of Marines and families and the atmosphere was like? Did it seem like the Clippers were doing a professional job of community outreach? They should have some comfort level with this event at this point.

It seems like Kaman looks to be the big news going into the season, although it’s very early yet. But he’s a confident, well-prepared veteran who is building on his accomplishments from last year. This is not just great news for him and the Clippers as a team, but also for Griffin and Jordan. Kaman’s level of skill and execution will enable them to be “the dirty guy,” which is a great role for Griffin especially. Teams will be forced to deal with Kaman and have to try to stop him (a task in itself), and the attention will open things up.

I’m not worried about Jordan. He started slow in summer league and he needs to play in the right spots to succeed, and play within himself. Going against Kaman shows how good Kaman is as much as it shows Jordan’s deficiencies. We’ll have a much better idea of where Jordan is after preseason is over, when the season starts. Jordan should get a lot of minutes and time in the upcoming games, as Kaman’s preseason minutes should be limited, more so as preseason goes on. I hope to see Jordan get more comfortable, and that’s what happened in summer league. And then when the season starts he’s still a backup.

Bledsoe news not surprising either. The preseason is extremely important for all of these young guys. They should be able to make a lot of progress, and it’s hard to tell what it means when they’re playing against their teammates. With Gomes, Smith, Butler and Foye the youngest guys aren’t essential, although Gordon, Griffin, and Jordan are all key players. If Bledsoe and Aminu are good and can contribute, the Clippers could be a good team.

by citizen zhiv on Oct 4, 2010 10:11 AM PDT reply actions  

Kaman vs Jordan

I think Kaman is exactly the type of center that DeAndre can’t defend. Pau Gasol, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, and Chris Kaman… they are craft bigs with great footwork and tricks up every sleeve. I don’t have any proof, but I recall Jordan doing a much better job defending more conventional bigs like Howard, Perkins, and Okafor. Then again, he got spanked by Bynum. Hrm, just thinking out loud.

"I wish I was a baller."
-Skee-Lo

by Erik O on Oct 4, 2010 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

My hunch is that you and Zhiv are right

DJ’s going to have trouble against highly skilled, crafty offensive centers. It’s good then that he’ll mostly be going up against 2nd stringers.

"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT

by SilverClip on Oct 4, 2010 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Atmosphere...

It was a small crowd… in a small gym. A very nice facility, with good lighting and high rafters and good shooting backgrounds… but maybe 6 rows of risers on either side of the court.

The families that came seemed to have a good time. The kids in attendance especially. The Clippers did a good job, with Clippers Spirit and fan patrol. The fan patrol tossing girls in the air got almost as many gasps as the dunks. It is pretty spectacular when you’re right there and you see how high those girls are flying. They also tossed T-shirts in the crowd, gave away caps, and the players signed autographs afterward.

Ralph introduced the team and was of course gracious as ever – calling the Marines “the real heros” etc. Ralph was class all the way. The base press relations sergeant had three PFCs for the media buys (me, DJ, Breene from ClipperBlog and Frank Burlison from the Press Telegram) to interview. They’d just finished basic training and happened to be at Pendleton; one of the three (PFC Hargrove) was an LA kid, and a Clippers fan. He was grinning ear to ear about seeing them, and basically had dragged his two buddies along. They were good kids, but I felt a little like Tom Cruise in “A Few Good Men” (“Every time you call me sir I look around to see if my dad is in the room.” )

Among the players, Kaman is most into the experience. His dad and granddad were in the military, he’s got the haircut, and he likes to blow sh!t up. Rumor has it he’s been trying to get someone to let him fire a bazooka or something when he goes done there. Not surprising.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Oct 4, 2010 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Kaman funny

Yeah, the crowd did look tiny. After I made the comment I saw Breene’s post, which covered this issue, along with a big crop of photos. Not much of a turnout. “It’s the Clippers,” I guess. It’s a great tradition, however, and should grow as time goes on and the team improves.

And they don’t know what they have in Kaman. They should definitely let him and his crew play with some of the weaponry.

by citizen zhiv on Oct 4, 2010 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Clips

That’s all well and good, but can they do that as a team and play against the rest of the league?

by Jeffrey Thompson on Oct 4, 2010 10:51 AM PDT reply actions  

The hazards of playing with a lesser PG

I’m not sure to what extent we should hold Griffin accountable for a ho-hum performance, given that Foye was evidently a little flat himself.

On the final… Blue possessions of the game, Gordon … got the ball to Griffin for a dunk attempt which resulted in a foul and two free throws

.
It can’t be surprising that Griffin benefits from effective playmaking. It’ll be interesting then to see how things go when Baron gets healthy. I’m also thinking that Aminu’s play might improve a bit, too.

"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT

by SilverClip on Oct 4, 2010 12:00 PM PDT reply actions  

He also missed every shot he took that wasn’t a dunk, mostly pretty badly.

Doesn’t matter who the PG is, a miss is a miss.

by Michael White on Oct 4, 2010 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Don't you think that Baron would have gotten the ball to him closer to the basket?

"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT

by SilverClip on Oct 4, 2010 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

I have no idea. I didn’t watch the game.

But that was basically the same argument at the beginning of last year for why Butler was sucking. It was explained away by him looking better when playing with Chris Paul. But we saw plenty of times when Baron got Butler the ball on and the dude just missed the shot. The evidence suggests that Aminu is a bad shooter. If that’s the case, that won’t change with a better PG.

by Michael White on Oct 4, 2010 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Guys play differently with different PGs

Butler example is a good example of a very bad excuse. He’s a shooter, and he was missing shots. Unless it’s got Shaq-sweat on it, it doesn’t matter who passes you the rock.

But logic would indicate that if Blake isn’t playing with a PG that can manipulate the defense to create cutting lanes, he’s just not going to get the same shots.

"I wish I was a baller."
-Skee-Lo

by Erik O on Oct 4, 2010 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think he would

Since he was a leader in the league in that category…

"I wish I was a baller."
-Skee-Lo

by Erik O on Oct 4, 2010 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

It really isn't

Most players look better with great PG play

by BigTank on Oct 4, 2010 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

How did the Gomes-Aminu matchup play out?

You’d think that Gomes would have trouble staying in front of AFA, if the stats and reports are to be believed.

"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT

by SilverClip on Oct 4, 2010 12:06 PM PDT reply actions  

doesn't sound like cook changed much :(

i always remember him being kinda a jacker for the Lakers. I think that’s why I never liked him. I always felt like cook thought he was better than he actually is cause he’d always be taking 3’s early in the shot clock rather than playing within the offense. I hope he’s not like that when he gets some time in the regular season.

by osamu on Oct 4, 2010 2:15 PM PDT reply actions  

He must've read that post about his shooting percentage.

Damn it, we got his hopes up.

"I wish I was a baller."
-Skee-Lo

by Erik O on Oct 4, 2010 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

very interesting about BG

In the end, he will eventually have to posses a serviceable jumper to bait opponents and open up drives to the rack. Without that, we would be lucky if he turned into our version of Noah. That’s not a bad thing, but his ceiling should be much higher. This is only 1 game, and he should be given time to get better before we judge.

by indy818 on Oct 4, 2010 2:36 PM PDT via mobile reply actions  

we'll see

sometimes I feel like players focus too much on getting good at new skills, rather than becoming great at what they already do well. I think it worries me more that it sounds like Griffin took more jumpers than it does that he missed them. It’d be nice to have that weapon, but if it’s taking the focus off his strengths that just makes him weaker.

I’m guessing he’s just trying new things in a scrimmage, and I’m sure there’s not much to worry about. I’m thinking for now, when he’s playing w/ Kaman, he should be playing at the basket and leaving the elbow jumpers to Kaman.

by osamu on Oct 4, 2010 5:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

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