Clips Roster Exposed in First Two Losses
Due to my lack of being able to watch any preseason games (because of the Fox vs. DISH debacle) I had not written any thoughts on this season's Clipper team. I was pretty much horrified watching ESPN Wednesday. After watching tonight's game (thankfully Fox and DISH came to some agreement this afternoon and restored all Fox programming) I thought I might vent a little and see what the rest of CN thinks.
I don't think I've felt this hopeless as a Clipper fan in years. Why?
This Year's Roster May Be the Worst Combination of the 2000sSure, there are INDIVIDUAL names that seem pretty good but as a collection this team feels woefully weak.
Baron Davis
Baron's success and exciting play seem more and more to have been the product of Don Nelson's freewheeling mindset of outscoring opponents. He shined in that system but the Clips aren't built that way and therefore cannot play that way. Not his fault and I'm not picking on him. Shawn Marion also comes to mind as a player who looked INCREDIBLE in Phoenix in the D'Antoni/Nash system (so much so he got the nickname "The Matrix") but looks sadly average in Dallas in their Dirk based system.
Eric Gordon
Gordon has looked much improved this year so far. His attacks to the basket seem more decisive and it looks like he's finishing better. However these first two games have brought to my mind weaknesses that may be hard or even impossible to overcome and they have nothing to do with anything in his control.
He is slightly short for today's NBA shooting guard position. Top guards like Kobe, Roy, Ray Allen, Kev Martin, Tyreke Evans, J-Rich all have around 3-4" on him. Let's face it. Everyone EJ's height that is awesome is a point guard and Eric just does not have PG skills. Could he develop them? Maybe in time. Maybe.
Sure Cuttino played the 2 guard spot and was only an inch taller than Gordon but he was crafty and a veteran when the Clips signed him. Can Gordon be just as effective as Cuttino at the 2 spot? Maybe someday but I doubt he will reach that level this season. Gordon to me is a maybe great someday type of player. Clipper Nation can hope all they want but it seems far from realistic to think he can reach Cuttino's level of play so young in his career.
Chris Kaman
Chris was actually one of the main reasons I became a Clipper fan. When I first saw him play I could see the potential for him becoming a dominant big man, which is a vital part to building a championship caliber team I think. Paired with Elton Brand I was totally convinced that the Clips were headed in the right direction.
Well, it's been seven long years later and I have to say I am getting very disappointed. For him to still be showing up as Mr. Flippy in 2010-2011 is sad to me. He has the ability to overpower and dunk over many opponents, dare I say, over MOST opponents. So when his jump shot is not falling, when his 2 foot finesse shots aren't dropping why won't he just dunk it? I've asked that year after year with no real answer and so my hope in Kaman has faded. I still think he's a decent big man when he's having a good night. But it's more than apparent that he does not know how to positively affect the game in other ways when his offense is not working. He did not learn from Camby. Man, I miss the effort and attitude of good old Marcus...
Ryan Gomes
Quite a while back Clipper Nation seemed to be dying for a "glue guy". According to some media reports that's what Gomes is. A vanilla type of player who plays within himself and the system and makes good basketball decisions while being a solid defender.
Tonight Ryan Gomes met Dorrell Wright who happened to go for 24 points, 8 rebounds and 3 assists. This is glue guy defense?
Sure Butler defended some against Wright but at least Butler has some redeeming value in that he's a three point threat on the other end. Butler, even with all his weaknesses has a very definite identity. He is what he is and you are happy when he gives you what he's known for and when he doesn't you chalk it up to an off night and move on.
So back then, I was actually against the Clippers going for a glue guy. Why? I just didn't think the Clips had enough scorers. Adding one more guy who can't score just seemed like a bad idea at the time. So then many in the nation said well just because a player's a glue guy doesn't mean he can't score - and thus a debate began as to what exactly the definition is of a glue guy.
Fast forward to the present, Ryan Gomes may be a nice guy and teammate, a reliable do-what-the-coach-says type of player but I don't think he fits on this current team. After watching the first two games I believe more than ever before that the Clips need a BIG TIME SCORER in the SF slot. As much as we hated Al's incessant jab stepping he could bust out 20 points on any given night and was tantalizingly athletic.
For years we had good ol Uh-Oh Maggette-O. Mr. Clipper for life. As much as he frustrated me at times he was a very above average SF and a reliable scorer. How many free throws did we see Corey make? How many 20+ point games did he have with 5 FGAs? A gazillion. Where's the scoring now? Who's gonna get to the free throw line and stop the clock, extend the game, break up opponent runs now? Cue the crickets.
Randy Foye
When they got Foye and Gomes this summer, I thought "Wow, add Craig Smith and you have the Timberwolves West Part Deux!" Were they such a successful combo in Minnie that we had to have them here? All that money and cap room we got by not re-signing Steve Blake or Drew Gooden, trading away Camby and Randolph before that and this is what we end up with? But I kept my big mouth shut and thought "maybe I should watch them in some games first." So I watched the first two games. My initial reaction?
Wow! That's what we got in the offseason?
Foye seems average at his very best. Just another average point guard in the long list of Dickau and Hart and other forgettable Clipper backups. At least I was excited about Mike Taylor. And don't even bring up Shaun backing up Cassell. I'm gonna go cry now.
Brian Cook and Jarron Collins
Wow. We're that team now? The team with the has-been, washed up, un-athletic vets? Can you say boring to watch and only mildly effective? At least Skinner had interesting facial hair and remember Walter McCarty? He could sing and play keys!! Yeah!
What happened to the days of Chris Wilcox coming off the bench? Remember the braids flying as he smashed lobs from Shaun? Sigh. Heck I'd even take Paul Davis over Cookie and Collins.
DeAndre Jordan
What a great kid! Emphasis on kid. He dazzles at times and boggles the mind at others. How does he fit into the current style of play the Clippers run? Who knows? What is the current style of play? To the point of boredom, at least Dunleavy focused on being a defensive team. At least in that system DJ could focus on blocks and rebounds, boxing out, etc. Is that how VDN will use him?
DJ maybe great someday. Maybe. But this season? Another question mark...
Craig Smith & Rasual Butler
Great role players. They both seem to know what they are good at and are fairly dependable at it. But they need reliable stars (maybe even superstars) around them to really shine. The Clips don't have that as of now, the start of the season. I believe Smith and Butler will only look better as the season goes on.
Al-Farouq Aminu, Eric Bledsoe & Willie Warren
Haven't really seen enough of any of them to get any indication as to whether they can save this season for the Clips. A big unknown. However you look at it, pinning your playoff hopes on a bunch of rookies is most often a road to a big letdown.
How They All (Don't) Fit Around Blake Griffin
So obviously I didn't write about Blake because we all know everything about Blake, don't we? I don't need to write one word because it's already all been written. So the question is how do you fit everything around him?
As I mentioned before I think the Clips have some decent pieces but I am not feeling very hopeful as to them fitting together around Blake in any manner that will get them wins. Let me oversimplify for argument sake.
Baron, EJ, Butler, and DJ would probably be best in a run and gun type of HIGH SCORING system. You need lots of scorers in both your starting lineup and bench to outscore the other team.
Kaman, Smith, Collins, & Cook probably fit better in a slower half court type of system based on defense, limiting possessions by using the entire 24 second clock in a LOW SCORING game. Let's face it All Star Kaman has NEVER scored 30 in a single game in 7 seasons. Lower scoring games would maximize his part in it.
Who knows where all the rest of the players fit in. Probably somewhere in between the two. Either way I don't see how you can build a solid identity with this roster as it stands. Watching these last two games it almost seems like there isn't really any system and thus guys don't know what to do (except for Butler, who seems to always know his job is to shoot) which is actually refreshing now in this what-the-heck-is-going-on system.
Clippers Need Another Scorer
In the postgame Michael Smith said that if Kaman had been playing up to preseason form and made some more baskets the game would have been a lot closer. Pretty sad, huh. Closer. Doesn't that just reinforce the idea of the need for another scorer? Because the idea now is that if Kaman plays better and Gordon or Baron play better they might have beaten the Golden State Warriors? Yikes.
In the second half of the first game against Portland the Clips had another one of their now famous SIX minute droughts with no FGMs. They could have definitely used a guy who can flat out score the ball. But when you look at this Clipper roster you don't see anyone that can stop other teams from going on 10-0, 20-0 runs. Griffin is still a rookie (can't expect that of him just yet) and Baron, Kaman and EJ are just not reliable enough to get you a basket that will stop the bleeding and turn the tide.
So am I overreacting? Probably. But my gut tells me the Clips need to make a trade or find some scoring machine in the D-League soon or this season could be over fast.
-
Yup. I am not excited when I look at this year's roster. I hope VDN and the FO prove me wrong and somehow make it work but I just can't see it without a major change or addition. What say you Clipper Nation?
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very frustrating to watch the game
clippers need help quick… they need a real point guard that will set the tone and offense.. foye takes bad shots and over dribbles.. baron is ugh baron..
trade for a sports psychologist
baron just sucks and he doesnt want to be here…he has a bad contract and dumping him is impossible…im fine with gordon…“mr. flippy” has to go…i really believe this team needs a team shrink…what happened in the last 2 games should not be happening…i can live with a hard fought loss, but to not show up or to roll over is unacceptable…what happened to “no excuses”?
We need to do something radical
Excellent points moKi. The team is clearly not capable of gelling within its current form. Without making any trades we could realign the team pretty effectively if we just take some gambles. What would happen if we realigned the starting and backup teams to be arranged around their particular skillsets – either fast or slow.
You would get the following two lineups:
PG – Bledsoe / Davis
SG – Gordon / Foye
SF – Aminu / Butler /Gomes
PF – Griffin / Smith
C – Jordan / Kaman
With this lineup you have a really fast team and a more traditional half court team. Sure we go through growing pains having so many rookies on the court but they will learn together. Maybe we will catch a break and they will learn quickly. Trial by fire or so to speak.
Personally I would start the fast team and have our half court team demolish the opposing second units. Can any team keep up with our young guys? Our defense would suck, but our offense could potentially keep it close until our veterans enter the game in a mismatch where we could make a push.
One additional advantage of this system would be that with success, all of our veterans instanly become expendible – allowing us to grow the team. Getting demolished by GSW is a major embarrassment. That needs a pretty radical response.
Moki...
…as much as I hate to say it, this is all very sensible.
last night I was very depressed...reality hit me when I saw it...
This team cannot win as it is. There is no firepower.
A good piece and you've convinced me
Yes, trade for a big time scorer – whatever it takes as lone as keep Griffin.
Nothing has changed! VDD (Vinny Del Dunleavy)
Bad play calls, bad substitutions, etc…. I love how we practice everything but putting the ball in the basket. So we are 1-9 so far this season/preseason. Play the FU*KING rookies if the vets are gonna play like this VDD!
"Within every Clipper fan is a Laker hater."
Calm Down
We aren’t built to run with the fast pace teams yet. We match up better with the Nuggets, Jazz, and teams like that. We even match up with the Lakers better than we do with GW and Suns.
The coaching staff is figuring out what we have and don’t have. The first two games looked bad. Hopefully, they will get a wake up call soon. BD actually improved yesterday, while Chris looks like he is playing without his medication again. Blake and DJ game are one dimensional. Collins and Cook shouldn’t even be suiting up.
we looked our best in the open court and on fast breaks during the pre-season and during our first game
I think this team is absolutely built to run. Griffin runs the floor better than any PF/C in the league, Gordon is becoming much better at attacking defenders on the fly. Aminu looks pretty solid in the open as well. DJ can grab just about any lob thrown around the rim.
We looked more in control when the ball was inbounded quickly and pushed up court after a GSW made bucket or missed shot. I think this team is terrible when they play slow; no one moves around. Push the tempo and we find open guys more often than not.
by dulciusXasperis on Oct 30, 2010 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions
These first two games i'm trying to figure out what type of offense are we running!
Vinny mister smooth talker better get this ship right if not he’s going to start hearing
the fire Vinny chants.
"at least Brian Skinner had interesting facial hair"?
Oh man, where is Kamanhomie when you need him
by MagnusVonKilgore on Oct 30, 2010 1:40 PM PDT reply actions
Baron Davis Baron Davis Baron Davis
I cannot believe there is not a single NBA team that could not use a starting PG.
You are late to the party
hmm if you can call the first two games a party.
I’ve been saying pretty much the whole off-season but since I wasn’t drinking the kool-aid I was hated on by quite a few. The team blew the off-season. They failed to land a impact player and still managed to handicap their cap space in the process. Well played Olshey, well played.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
What are you talking about Chuck
we’re still going to go 80-2. Club Optimism!!!
A mimic of course.
"Things change when something is taken away from you" -BG32
Right, sure
The starters are who they are. The FO can’t get rid of BD. He was signed for far too long by the previous regime. The team needs a go to scorer, not some free agent backups.
This is a long process. The predictions are 35 wins.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Ok sure
remember you thought Gomes and Foye were fine signings. I’ve been against the front office moves all summer.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Oct 31, 2010 2:26 AM PDT up reply actions
They are fine complimentary role players
They are not going to make or break this team. I suspect you know that. You seem to want to rip the Clippers at every turn. The FO didn’t sign BD for five years. The FO can’t help BD and Kaman shoot the ball. The team has to execute plays.
The coach does need to implement a good system and motivate the players on the team. But the coach is not responsible for execution.
So while I understand your desire to show us all how right you were, I am not sure that the deficiencies of the BD and Kaman support your argument.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Hindsight is 20/20
If you don’t think the FO (who were all there 2 years ago) would have signed Baron for the exact same contract, you’re nuts. While I have always had concerns about his desire and his frequent injury history gave me doubts re: his ability to lead and be productive, we still were a team in desperate need of a point guard and if he was the best available, then it was a move that needed to be made. I didn’t like him, but I could definitely accept it.
Now we still have glaring needs at the 3, more shooting, and for a backup point guard. We failed to address any of those needs this summer. Not to mention a glaring need for a head coach.
Actually, I do not think they would have
You always seem bitter to me. What’s wrong?
As I’ve said ad nauseum, there was no reason to sign the guy to a five year contract, for just this very reason.
In any event, what’s done is done. Your suggestion about failing to address those needs this summer reflects an unrealistic view of the current situation with the team and what needs to be fixed.
The team has basic problems that the FO cannot fix overnight. Their supposed best player and leader is neither and we are stuck with the huge contract. Their center is inconsistent and will never be able to fulfill his promise. Their two guard is good but somewhat limited. Their most important player and future cornerstone is a rookie who’s played three games in the NBA.
If you can’t see those problems, then I don’t know what to say. There are no short term fixes. Spending more money on a three, unless a go to scorer, is a waste of resources so long as BD at the helm. This is a team that likely will not win more than 35 games this year. Apparently you thought differently. Which explains your anger.
But hey – you keep ripping on the coach. Clearly he’s the one missing all those open shots. Jeesh
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Then you're wrong.
Our current FO LOVED the signing of Baron. For some reason they still love Baron – and no, that’s not to boost his trade value. And there was no way any team could have signed him for less than 5 years. To say we could have signed him to 3-4 years is nonsense and completely unrealistic.
I could care less about wins/losses. Anger and bitterness are not in my nature. Accountability and results are what I want. We failed this summer in free agency, we failed in hiring a head coach, and I see no positive signs other than a guy we lucked out in the draft 2 years ago and Eric Gordon’s play a majority of the games.
You want accountability?
Please – where were you for the pathetic past 7 years?
We could easiliy could have signed him for 3 years. The only offer he had was a one year deal from the Warriors. No offense, but you don’t know what you are talking about. Despite the bravado with which you come at it.
This is a pointless discussion.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
You're so naive.
Congrats – so you read online the Warriors offered him a one year deal. Well, if we didn’t offer him 5 years, a bunch of other teams needing a one man would have done it, either thru cap space or a sign-and-trade. To say we could have easily signed him for 3 years is utter nonsense. To say we were his only other option is inane.
Oh, and in case you forgot, those pathetic past 7 years included the biggest highlight – by far- in this team’s franchise history.
by RAR on Nov 1, 2010 1:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Actually
I was here when that went down and we discussed it at length. Where were you?
Feel free to go back and do the research before ripping others. Otherwise you’ll just embarrass yourself.
Again.
Since you brought it up though, I’m just curious – what were BD’s other options at the time? Love to hear it.
Come on, you’re MDSr’s kid.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Just stop embarrassing yourself.
It’s well known you’re just an antagonizing jerk who cannot even acknowledge the good that was accomplished by Dunceleavy. Oops, sorry dad.
If you don’t think he had other options just because it wasn’t in the news, then go ahead and naively think that. Yeah, nobody wanted an (at the time) top 5 point guard. He wanted to come home and fill our gaping hole at the 1, so he agreed very early on in the process.
And to argue your baseless “theory” below, we could have pulled our offer if he was tied to EB and EB wasn’t coming. We needed him badly, so we kept the offer on the table. He was signed after EB went to Philly, not before. Again, your way off base here. Shocking, I know.
Whatever you say
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
God you're insecure
I feel sorry for you – life must be tough
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Nov 2, 2010 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Deflection.
You must love the Vinny D era! By the way, how’s Thibodeaux working out so far? No excuses.
by RAR on Nov 2, 2010 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Sorry, not interested in debating you
And, no, it’s not a deflection. Your post above confirms your insecurity.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Nov 2, 2010 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions
You can't debate me because truth ain't on your side. my man.
by RAR on Nov 2, 2010 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions
If you say so
Why are you wasting your time trying to goad fellow Clipper fans into arguing with you anyway?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Nov 2, 2010 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions
I couldn't care less if someone argues with my beliefs.
I write what I either know to be true or what I believe to be true, and if other people want to argue against that, they have every right to do so, even if they have no basis on their claims or a grasp on reality.
I just don’t appreciate it when they (errr, just you actually) resort to name calling and personal attacks.
by RAR on Nov 2, 2010 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Heh
just ignore Jax, you’ll be better off. I foolishly got sucked into the Jax John R feud over the summer.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
Very good advice.
I try, but it’s so hard not to get sucked in by his comments sometimes.
by RAR on Nov 2, 2010 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions
And just what was my personal attack?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Nov 2, 2010 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Erm
you called him insecure, something about embarrassing himself again? and MDSr.’s son.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
Thanks for jumping in CC
Note that those comments followed RAR’s personal attacks on me.
I can see that I’ve now owned both of you and that this bothers you. To use RAR’s vernacular.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Nov 2, 2010 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions
God you're so insecure
I feel sorry for you – life must be tough
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
And just to be clear
the story is a bit more complex then that. Briefly, BD was signed as part of a deal where they would get EB resigned. EB had supposedly verbaled to MDSr that he’d come back but that they needed a good PG. Depending on who you believe, they signed BD, EB backed out and the rest is history. I doubt that they would have signed BD unless EB was coming back.
At the time, many thought the whole thing was strange, in part because there was never anything unequivocal about EB’s position. I never thought he’d resign here based on personal interactions with EB and predicted as much. I think that MDSr was very naive to think otherwise.
I also think that BD was not a good choice given MDSr’s style.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
problem is we can't really trade anyone except our 4 starters (minus Gomes) & DJ until Dec. 15th
so this is the team we got and i hope they are trying to figure out how to make do. We need Rhino back, NOW! I’m not too worried and won’t be until after at least 15 games (after we play some poor teams), the Warriors played amazing last night, they couldn’t miss, sure our defense sucked but they shot the lights out and our “shooters” can’t hit the rim right now, Gordon included.
We need a scorer!!!
The Clips can’t shoot! We need to trade Baron (unmotivated or too old), Kaman or anybody but Blake and Gordon to get some scorers! Open your wallet DTS and spend some $.

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