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Of Eggs and Baskets - the Clippers and LeBron James

First things first, let's recap the last few days. 

On Monday, the Clippers had Marcus Camby, Al Thornton and Sebastian Telfair, and were on pace to have perhaps $11.5M in cap space this summer (an approximation, we'll get into some more exact math later, but there are several moving parts here of course).

On Tuesday, they traded Camby to Portland for Travis Outlaw and Steve Blake (two nice players) and cash.  Since all three players in the deal have expiring contracts, this did not alter their cap situation at all, so it was still $11.5M.

On Wednesday, they participated in a three way trade with Cleveland and Washington that sent Telfair to the Cavs, Thornton to the Wizards, and brought Drew Gooden to LA.  Gooden has an expiring contract, while Telfair and Thornton have one year left each, so this netted the Clippers about $5.5M in extra cap space.  Call it $17M heading into the summer of LeBron.  By the way, a max offer to LeBron James would be about $16.6M.  That's not a coincidence.

Star-divide

Taken together, the two trades have an undeniable symmetry.  Telfair, Thornton, Camby (point guard, small forward, power forward) out - Blake, Outlaw, Gooden (point guard, small forward, power forward) in.  And sure, if the goal is to balance the roster, that's fine. 

But I remain mildly miffed about the first trade, even while admiring the second.  Remember, these are by definition separate trades.  I mean, with completely different trade partners, it's clear that there weren't external forces requiring linkage of the two deals.  So taken on their own merits, the offloading of the Telfair and Thornton contracts is exactly the right move for the Clippers and accomplished what they needed to accomplish.  The Camby trade was almost entirely lateral and it seems there was an opportunity cost there given Camby's resume and expiring deal.  Look at it this way - the Blazers wanted to do it badly enough to throw in some serious coin (both in the form of cash and in picking up all of Camby's bonus money).  It seems as if that extra value could have had some bearing on basketball, that's all.

Having said that, it is as I said essentially lateral and had they kept Camby it would not change the outlook for this summer, which is what we're all about around here now.  You can certainly argue that Blake and Outlaw fill glaring roster holes in the absence of Telfair and Thornton and that having them will help the Clippers be more competitive the rest of this season.  Of course, being competitive in the final 30 games of a lost season is of dubious value.  Whatever - I'm over it.

So what about this LeBron James guy?

A lot has been written on this subject, and no doubt a lot more will be written.  I tend to prefer the viewpoints of those who actually know a little about the Clippers, so I recommend you read Kevin's post on ESPNLA and his TrueHoop post and Eric Pincus' Hoopsworld article.  Pincus in particular nailed the cap issues - I won't be able to resist touching on these issues myself down below, but my strong recommendation is that you read what Pincus wrote about the cap issues, and ignore everyone else (except me of course) because there's a lot of misinformation out there.

In the big picture, I will frame this discussion with a wonderful Lloyd Christmas quote:

Lloyd: What do you think the chances are of a guy like you and a girl like me... ending up together?
Mary: Well, Lloyd, that's difficult to say. I mean, we don't really...
Lloyd: Hit me with it! Just give it to me straight! I came a long way just to see you, Mary. The least you can do is level with me. What are my chances?
Mary: Not good.
Lloyd: You mean, not good like one out of a hundred?
Mary: I'd say more like one out of a million.
[pause]
Lloyd: So you're telling me there's a chance... *YEAH!*

In case you missed it, the Clippers are Jim Carrey in this analogy, and LeBron James is Lauren Holly - only a much, much hotter Lauren Holly (and this is coming from a guy who has a well-documented penchant for redheads). 

The Clippers chances of luring LeBron James to LA may not be particularly good - but if there's any chance at all, you absolutely have to go for it.  This is a franchise-changing opportunity, and if you don't believe me, look at Cleveland's record the five years before and after the 2003 draft.  Moreover, even if the odds don't look good today, you never know what's going to happen in the next few months.  Maybe LeBron and the Cavs will have some sort of falling out.  It's not like he has gone on record saying he's planning on playing his entire career in Cleveland.  I've said before and I still believe that he's most likely, even highly likely, to be a Cavalier next season.  But it's not at all difficult to make the case that if he wants an alternative, the best one is LAC (although the Knicks managed to clear enough space today to make them more attractive than they were yesterday).

So Plan A is LeBron - and only LeBron. 

The Clippers have $32.4M committed to Baron Davis, Chris Kaman, Blake Griffin and Eric Gordon next season, and no, I don't expect any of them to be going anywhere.  (Although the trade deadline has now passed, they could of course move somebody between the end of the season and the start of free agency, but as I said, I don't expect that to happen.)  Add to those fully guaranteed contracts the partially guaranteed and very affordable deal of DeAndre Jordan and you're up to $33.5M.  If the cap comes in at $54M, then they have more than enough money to offer LeBron that max deal, right?  Wrong.

With only five guys and a spot for LeBron, the NBA would add seven six cap holds for minimum contracts onto the Clippers cap number.  Basically, since a team is required to carry at least 13 contracts has 12 players on their active roster, the NBA accounts for 13 12 contracts in calculating available cap space. At a little less than $500K each, take another $3.5M $3M away from LA's available space.  That puts them right around $17M $17.5M available - just enough to max James out if the cap really comes in at $54M.  So first and foremost, cross your fingers that the cap is at least $54M.  (Hat tip to citizen Lawler4ever for clearing up the 12 versus 13 question.  Remember of course that we can get as precise as we like in calculating the Clippers payroll, but it will still come down to where the NBA sets the salary cap for next season.)

Here's where some misconceptions start entering the discussion.

  • Misconception one - the Clippers are in a position to add a superstar to a nice core AND will also have a lottery pick, which could conceivable be first overall John Wall.  Sorry, but that first round pick counts against the cap as well.  Based on the current cap estimate, any lottery pick would preclude a max contract offer - the higher the pick, the less money to offer to LeBron.  Now, the Clippers could trade that pick for future picks to avoid any cap implications, and that's likely what they will do, but if you're dreaming of LeBron James, Blake Griffin, Eric Gordon and John Wall, you'll have to trade Baron Davis or Chris Kaman, which won't be easy.
  • Misconception two - with the Bird rights to some nice role players like Travis Outlaw, Steve Blake, Craig Smith and Rasual Butler, the Clippers could feature a formidable roster of Baron, Gordon, LeBron, Griffin and Kaman backed up by Blake, Butler, Outlaw, Smith and Jordan by resigning those players over the cap after signing LeBron.  Wrong.  Bird rights involve cap holds - at values significantly higher than the player's previous salary.   So in order to clear the cap space necessary to sign a mega star, you have to renounce all rights to everyone else.  This is why I am relatively unimpressed with the Camby trade - the Clippers won't have the Bird rights of Outlaw or Blake under Plan A (or B or C for that matter), so it matters little how much we like them during our eight week rental.  Botom line: the second unit is much more likely to look like Bobby Brown, Kareem Rush, Steve Novak, second round pick and DeAndre Jordan.
  • Misconception three - Marcus Camby loves LA and was happy as a Clipper, so he could re-sign with the team after they sign a mega star.  Wrong again - unless Marcus likes LA so much that he's willing to sign for the veteran's minimum.  After a mega star signs, there will not be any money left for Camby.  And no, you can't use the mid level exception as the team automatically loses that when they go under the cap.

Bottom line is, the big dream begins and more or less ends with LeBron.  That's enough, it's still a most excellent dream.  And yes, some nice players, probably some solid vets, might want to join the Clippers at the minimum to play with LeBron.  But the rest of the roster - that's 8 or 9 roster spots - would come from second round picks and minimum free agents. So start scouring the European leagues now to get familiar with your future Clippers.

The problem is, the eggs in the LeBron basket are the really good ones.  The fall back eggs all seem a little cracked or rotten by comparison.

If LeBron spurns the Clippers advances, LA could turn it's attention to another free agent.  But as Sinead O'Conner (or Prince before her) might say, nothing compares to LeBron:

  • Dwyane Wade looks like more of a long shot and less of a fit;
  • Chris Bosh is even less of a fit, pushing Blake Griffin to small forward;
  • Amare is an older, less effective Bosh;
  • Joe Johnson is widely regarded as the best plan B, but do you want to give a 29 year old a long term contract starting at $16M when he's 'just' an All Star, not a mega star?  I don't;
  • Rudy Gay is out there, but he's an RFA so the Clippers would have to pay a fortune to have a chance, and might not get him even then.

Here's the thing about cap space - if you have it, you feel compelled to spend it.  And other than signing LeBron James, there certainly aren't any no-brainers out there this summer, though there are plenty of big names.

So perhaps the best alternate plan is to return to those Bird right players.  You get to keep the first round pick, you keep Outlaw/Butler at the three, you keep your solid backups in Blake and Smith at the one and four, and you continue to build around Griffin and Gordon.  Then you take the mid-level exception and sign a solid if unspectacular free agent.

That's not a bad plan - except that it is far from a certainty.  All of the Clippers' key FAs are unrestricted - the Bird rights represent a slight advantage, but very slight.  None of them are going to command as much as the mid level exception, which means that almost any NBA team can be in the market for them.  They might re-sign with the Clippers - or they might not.  It's worth remembering that the Clippers' 2004 pursuit of Kobe Bryant cost them Quentin Richardson.  Not that they wanted to pay Q the money that Phoenix was offering, but the pursuit of an external free agent while your own players cool their heels tends to dampen the relationship from both parties' perspectives.  Neither the rebounder nor the reboundee relishes the rebound relationship.

There are other possibilities to be sure.  There are sign and trade scenarios, lesser free agents, literally millions of permutations.  We know that GMMDsr is a wheeler-dealer who, true to his word, is putting workaholic level energy into being a GM now that he's no longer a coach.  If by some miracle LeBron James ends up as a Clipper next season, we know more or less what the team will look like - we know six key players, and the rest of the roster will be on minimum deals.  If James doesn't sign with the Clippers, it's anybody's guess what will happen. 

As for the idea of King James battling Kobe to rule LA, it may be a million to one, but at least there's a chance.

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I'm upset we couldn't trade baron.

Dunleavy needs one more move and that would be Davis & Jordan for bosh. Then its easier
to go after lebron or wade or Johnson. We need to superstars to make a statement. Baron
is the last piece of crap we need to dispose of.

by ENCUEROMAN on Feb 18, 2010 1:56 PM PST reply actions  

Bosh does not work as long as we have Griffin

so I say any trade or attempts to sign Bosh aren’t worth it. Also it would be a herculinean task for MDsr to trade Baron. He has not been playing up to par with his “We Believe” days so that is a first strike against him. And his contract is not attractive at all. So I don’t see much of a chance Baron can get traded.

" Baron for the win, BINGO!!!! The Clipers Win, The Clippers win!!! "
Ralph Lawler

by bestclipfan on Feb 18, 2010 2:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Bosh/Amare --> Sign & Trade

Just because we sign them, doesn’t mean we can’t still use them to get a more diverse array of talent to fill out the roster.

by Erik O on Feb 18, 2010 5:49 PM PST up reply actions  

That's not a good plan

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Feb 18, 2010 6:10 PM PST up reply actions  

+1

you can’t target pieces you don’t ideally and plan to move them for pieces you truly covet. You have to go after the real object of your affection.

It’s like asking a girl to be your wife so that you can make your buddy jealous and pull a wife swap… well, not exactly, but you catch my drift.

At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.

by Clipper T on Feb 18, 2010 6:14 PM PST up reply actions  

*ideally want

At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.

by Clipper T on Feb 18, 2010 6:15 PM PST up reply actions  

I think this core still is improving

our bench is horrible, we could sign 3-4 good players, the lottery pick, and of course Blake coming back will help this team so much. Building a championship team takes time, for Clippers fans a lot of us are impatient, but doesn’t being a Clipper fan teaches us to be patient? It certainly doesn’t teach us what a good basketball team is supposed to look like.

by bacek on Feb 18, 2010 2:00 PM PST reply actions  

Core

The good news is that Griffin-Gordon-Kaman is a good, possibly great, young, signed trio, and DeAndre Jordan remains a terrific prospect. But there’s a big difference between building for 2013 and doing something now.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Feb 18, 2010 2:03 PM PST up reply actions  

Impatient?

I’ve been pretty loyally patient since about 1996. It’s time to make a move, eh?

by Kenneyty on Feb 18, 2010 4:56 PM PST up reply actions  

Much to digest

I think Steve Blake & Travis Outlaw could be good plan B assets for us if we fail at landing a superstar. With Baron’s shenanigans, if we are indeed stuck with him, it’s nice to have a solid PG like Blake to turn to without a huge dropoff like we’ve experienced the last two years.

We’re a Baron Davis trade away from almost completely turning over the roster to young talent. If we somehow do win the lottery, it seems possible to trade Baron, while continuing to absorb most of his contract. I’m sure teams would be willing to take on at least 5-6 mil a year for BD.

by ghost_ride on Feb 18, 2010 2:05 PM PST reply actions  

Are we not screwed if we miss out on James....which is a very strong possibility

What are we going do? Who is there to pursue? Huge gamble by a franchise that has a terrible reputation and image. Good lord, imagine if this team wasn’t located in LA.

by dulciusEXasperis on Feb 18, 2010 2:05 PM PST reply actions  

Blake Griffin

Don’t forget that they have this kid Blake Griffin, who hasn’t played a game yet. Is he a franchise savior in his own right? We don’t know – but he could be really, really damn good. So the plan revolves around a couple of 21 year olds (maybe three of them, if you count DJ) if you miss on LBJ. The huge hole in that plan is that you only have a couple more seasons before you have to re-sign Eric Gordon. So if it’s building one brick at a time, the bricks start getting very expensive before the house is built.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Feb 18, 2010 2:12 PM PST up reply actions  

Don't forget the lottery 2010 lottery pick

With what figures to be an early 2nd rounder mixed in.

by ghost_ride on Feb 18, 2010 2:31 PM PST up reply actions  

I think we traded our 2nd round pick

I believe we moved it for Hassan Adams, not 100% sure but I think our 2nd rounder is gone.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 18, 2010 3:03 PM PST up reply actions  

Yup..

No 2nd rounder this summer.. That’s why I was excited when I heard that we were getting Cleveland’s 1st Rd. pick in the Thornton/Telfair trade.. Oh well!

"look, you can find any coach you want, bring him in here and run the situation. But I don't think they are going to do as good a job as I do." -Mike Dunleavy Sr.

by CLiPPz WeRD 12 on Feb 18, 2010 4:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Tis true

It’s just nerve racking haha. But yeah, we still don’t know the type of impact Griffin will bring, which yes, could be huge. One step at a time I suppose. Lets just get through the season and figure out our fate :)

Worst case scenario, wouldn’t be terrible bringing back Blake and/or Outlaw along with, hopefully, a solid prospect from the draft.

by dulciusEXasperis on Feb 18, 2010 3:13 PM PST up reply actions  

First off we Need the Clipper Steve Reverse Mojo McTwist

So Just come out and say LeBron will never be a Clipper and let your magic happen.

2nd If many think Amare would be lucky to get 6 – 7 million, is Bosh really a max player? I have my doubts.

by sqrebck on Feb 18, 2010 2:14 PM PST reply actions  

A million to one...

Isn’t that good enough?

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Feb 18, 2010 2:20 PM PST up reply actions  

Amare lucky to get 6-7 million?

He’ll get that for sure. I’m sure he’ll get at least 12-13 million per year.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 18, 2010 3:04 PM PST up reply actions  

If we were to get a pick in the top 5

It will most likely be for a good player. In this case, could you backload Lebrons contract, or is there any workaround with incentives or something so that we could afford both Lebron and the pick. Lebron also might sing for a little less than the max if we were to get a Wall/Turner/Johnson.

by C's Up on Feb 18, 2010 2:17 PM PST reply actions  

Up to LeBron

You can’t really backload – the contract value is normalized for the cap number, I think. So really, the only option is LeBron taking less for the privilege of playing with Wall.

Or rather, the option is making a major salary dump maneuver – you could certainly get someone to take Baron by tossing in a couple of first rounders, maybe the Minnesota pick. So winning the lottery is not a bad thing, it’s a good thing – it just changes the calculus.

Zach Randolph was no more tradeable last year than Baron Davis is this year. If lottery lightning strikes again, you make something happen.

Imagine that impossible dream…. the first overall from 2003, 2009 and 2010 on the same team.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Feb 18, 2010 2:25 PM PST up reply actions  

Getting Baron Davis off the books would be nice.

I know, this is coming from a guy who had B. Diddy as his profile picture for awhile, but my emotions are inconsistent just like Davis’ play. He’s had flashes of brilliance, but at 30, he no longer hast he ability to turn it on and off at will. No doubt he’d be motivated to play with LeBron James, but the Clippers could use the $15 million to sign a first rounder and maybe another free agent. To me, that sounds a lot better than 6 players.

by WestsideBrandon on Feb 18, 2010 3:09 PM PST up reply actions  

No

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Feb 18, 2010 2:44 PM PST up reply actions  

Steve

Can you elaborate on this further?

How can we go over the cap? If we sign LBJ why wouldn’t DTS be willing to go over the Cap we will basically sell out every night, raise ticket prices, and finally have the revenues to support going over the cap.

What scenarios allow a team to go over the cap?

By the way, I see the Clipps landing 1/4 players given our desperate need at the 3.

Iggy
Gay
T-Mac
Josh Howard

Obviously the last 2 are less attractive but if everyone else signs we need to use this cap space on someone.

by The Blake Griffin Era on Feb 18, 2010 3:09 PM PST up reply actions  

Iggy

we can make the same kind of trade that the Celts made for Ray Allen a few yrs back. Philly is terrible and needs to break up there team. They should welcome a lottery pick and not having to take back any bad contracts.

by The Blake Griffin Era on Feb 18, 2010 3:11 PM PST up reply actions  

You can't just go over the cap

Though the NBA cap is a soft cap, it is actually quite a hard cap in this one respect. If you are starting off below the cap and you sign free agents, you can’t go over the cap. Not by much.

You go over the cap by using exceptions. Examples are the Mid-level and Bird. To have free agent money you give up all of these.

The Clippers could go over the cap in 2011 if they are able to land a prize free agent. They can go over this summer if they just want to keep the band together.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 18, 2010 3:14 PM PST up reply actions  

If you think you found a loophole

Just remember that David Stern is smarter and more powerful than all of us combined and closed that loophole by sheer force of personality. He even fought Chuck Norris to a stalemate.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 18, 2010 3:30 PM PST up reply actions  

Luxury Tax

So I guess the moral of the story is that we can go over the cap and pay the tax next yr, 2011.

I never understood how teams like the lakers Mavs and Knicks can continually go over the cap, but it sounds like they keep using a combination of Birds Rights, the ME Excetion etc.

by The Blake Griffin Era on Feb 18, 2010 3:47 PM PST up reply actions  

It takes a concerted effort to go very far up or down in one year

We might see the Clippers total bill shoot up quickly when they try to extend Gordon and then Griffin.

Only then will we potentially know what DTS is made of.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 18, 2010 3:49 PM PST up reply actions  

the main ways are

1. re-signing your own players (Bynum, gasol)
2. Mid level exception
3. rookies

by andrewexd on Feb 18, 2010 4:16 PM PST up reply actions  

Once you're over....

It’s relatively easy to keep going further and further over, primarily by re-signing your bird FAs. Remember, the Lakers haven’t been under the cap since they signed Shaq. They extended him for 3/$88M (!), re-signed Kobe in 2004 for a max deal, re-signed Bynum for 4/$58M, extended Pau, re-signed Lamar, etc. etc. And pretty much none of that salary ever went away – Shaq begat Lamar and Butler, Butler begat Kwame, Kwame begat Pau. Throw in lesser deals for Luke Walton, Sasha Vujacic and MLE signings like VladRad and Artest, and voila – highest payroll in the league.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Feb 18, 2010 5:21 PM PST up reply actions  

Prioritize DWade

Dunleavy should be parked outside Wade’s house the day before FA market opens. At midnight he knocks on the door with a contract a Montblanc.

by wilriv21 on Feb 18, 2010 2:44 PM PST reply actions  

Go with that

Why would you target Wade?

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Feb 18, 2010 2:45 PM PST up reply actions  

Do not believe the Clips can close the deal for LBJ and if they show DWade he is their first love possibly Dunleavy can close the deal. Wade is a “closer” who can help the Clips win games.

I like Gordon however if the Clips could sign Wade …..

by wilriv21 on Feb 18, 2010 2:49 PM PST up reply actions  

why wouldn't you?

as far as I see it any of the max contract players that are available will be upgrades regardless of position. If you said that the only thing in the way of us landing a player like Wade was getting rid of Eric Gordon, I like the guy but I’m going with Wade

by bacek on Feb 18, 2010 2:51 PM PST up reply actions  

+1

Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.

by HVYDRT007 on Feb 18, 2010 2:53 PM PST up reply actions  

With Chicago trades today the Bulls have set themselves up nicely to target homeboy Wade.

by wilriv21 on Feb 18, 2010 3:05 PM PST up reply actions  

You Steve, are a big drag...

I was feeling pretty good there for a while, but you totally harshed me out.
Then I started thinking: Let’s not forget that last year, after trading away Zach Randolph the Clips were still missing big pieces and managed to bring in R. Butler and Craig Smith for almost nothing… and they were highly desirable expiring contracts to boot. If the Clips don’t sign a max guy (and I disagree that it could only be King James) there will be a lot of work to do and there’s a lot of cash to work with. So, let’s be a little positive about Dun’s ability to get stuff done… for the moment he actually deserves the benefit of the doubt.
Next, I think it’s the timing on the Camby deal that bugs you. But let me ask you a question: If we went cliimbed in our Clipper time machine and reversed the timing of the last two deals, wouldn’t you think both were genius?
Finally, let’s not forget that the economy, national and NBA, is in the crapper. All that parsimony that was evidenced in the 2009 off-season is likely to be repeated this year… perhaps in greater volume. Guys like Outlaw, Blake, and Butler maybe very very gettable on the very very cheap. Not minimum but not MLE, either.

by John Raffo on Feb 18, 2010 3:10 PM PST reply actions  

No amount of those guys will be enough

That’s the catch. GMDSr has basically been loading the team up with those guys to straddle trying to compete now with an eye to the 2010 plan. The results this season are the culmination of having a collection of nice pieces. You still want a The Man.

If you don’t have a The Man you probably need three very above average pieces and no bad ones. To get there you are looking at a high luxury tax bill. And there is no clear roadmap for the Clippers to get there from here.

There WAS, but I will try to avoid harping on the Wizards trade thing.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 18, 2010 3:21 PM PST up reply actions  

...but there was no The Man scenario in that...

…was there? Just four above average pieces and a question mark (Caron).

by John Raffo on Feb 18, 2010 3:36 PM PST up reply actions  

No The Man

But Kaman, Jamison and hopefully Griffin are far above average. Butler should return to above average and Baron was hovering there this year until…you know.

Then by it being a trade now you still have your exceptions to fortify the second unit.

This increases your overall salary pool, then Butler is expiring next year then Jamison the year after that giving you two more chances to go big expirings for talent with Bird rights before Gordon and Griffin hit their primes.

Was that team a championship team in 2010? No, but it was clearly headed up to me. Now we have 1 in a million more than nothing.

And the Knicks just got serious…

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 18, 2010 3:55 PM PST up reply actions  

agree 100%

screw flexibility, I would have taken a for sure Jamison and Butler or a for sure Iggy rather than the uncertainty we have now.

Obviously these guys don’t win us a ring, but it’s a step in the right direction which this franchise desperately needs.

by The Blake Griffin Era on Feb 18, 2010 4:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Blake Griffin's Health

Will be the biggest step in the right direction for the franchise.

by ghost_ride on Feb 18, 2010 5:42 PM PST up reply actions  

I think you answered your own question

The Clippers didn’t go after a trade such as what you proposed because:

This increases your overall salary pool

In a purely economic sense, the Clips are in a no lose situation. Best case, they sign LeBron and make tons of money. Worst case, they sign some guys to fill out the roster, still field a stronger team featuring Blake Griffin, and still make a lot of money. From management’s perspective, going after LeBron really isn’t a risk. It will be interesting to see what the Clips will spend on players and a coach if they aren’t able to bring in one of the big fish.

by ClipCat on Feb 19, 2010 7:18 AM PST up reply actions  

Yes yes

We know you think the Clippers won’t spend.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 19, 2010 8:56 AM PST up reply actions  

So you don't disagree with my premise

They’ll spend in the right circumstances, but their decisions in the past, present and future are almost always based on money ahead of basketball. Dunleavy got them to spend a little in his early years, but other than that, very few past decisions aren’t easily explained by money.

by ClipCat on Feb 19, 2010 10:34 AM PST up reply actions  

I don't disagree with parts

Money is a factor in all decisions for almost all teams, and you may have seen elsewhere that I have said that it hasn’t been proven that DTS will spend. Probably only the Lakers and Knicks are completely immune from economic reality. Even the Mavs have pulled back from their crazy spending.

But the opposite surely hasn’t been proven either. Which of the moves that reduced salary of the last couple years have you disagreed with? They chased Brand to pair with BDavis with all the money that they could give them. They grabbed Randolph when people said his contract was bad, only moving him when the improbable happened in Griffin. Thornton and Telfair are absolutely addition by subtraction in a basketball sense, not just bottom line.

Its true at no point have they spent to spend, but each meaningful move has been a basketball move as much as a money move.

The final book on Sterling spending isn’t written yet and I do hold it as a concern, but its nothing to be fired up about yet.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 19, 2010 11:29 AM PST up reply actions  

Disagree with most of the above

The Mavs just spent 30 million to upgrade from Gooden and Howard to Haywood and Butler.. hardly a team pulling back while the Lakers with a glaring weakness at PG didn’t make a move because of financial reasons (plus the bad contracts of Walton and Vujacic) when they easily could have acquired a Hinrich type for expiring deals. Even the Knicks pulled back in recent years because they got to the point where the contracts are crazy.

Anyways this is a star centric league, aside from the Pistons there hasn’t been a team that’s won the championship without a top 5 player (or 2 top ten players like the Celtics) leading them in well over 20 years. Getting a team with a bunch of above average guys has only worked out once in the past 30 years, not exactly the kind of results you should look for.

What does this mean exactly? Well you either have to get lucky and draft your super superstar (Pierce, Kobe, Duncan, Jordan, Olajuwon, Wade) or go out and sign or trade for one somehow (Shaq and Garnett). We’re trying to do both here (Blake or Lebron).

Acquiring a bunch of assets does sound good on paper but there are only a few true gamechangers in the league, if you have a shot to get one you have to go for it even if the odds aren’t good. Those above average players might make you a decent playoff team but eventually they get old and you get stuck in salary cap hell (see Knicks, maybe the Mavs, Suns). We will eventually face that too, I mean we love EJ now because he’s on the rookie scale… but will he be worth 10+ mill per year in the future?

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 19, 2010 11:40 AM PST up reply actions  

I am not a big drag...

You are!

I thought I made the point that Dunleavy will do something. I have no idea what that something is, but he’ll do something. And the Clippers are certainly much better off than several other teams. Look at New York and Miami – they’re all in on getting not you but two super mega stars – and there aren’t enough of those guys to go around. Can you imagine if New York whiffs – they’ll be scrambling just to get to the NBA minimum payroll. The Clippers have four starters, an intriguing project center, a high draft pick and a giant pile of money as their starting position. We’ve certainly been in worse spots, right?

My point is that while I love the LeBron plan (who wouldn’t?), all the other alternatives pale in comparison.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Feb 18, 2010 5:28 PM PST up reply actions  

"We've certainly been in worse spots"

Yes we have.

We happen to be in the Twilight Zone once again right now, and we need to have a tanking discussion and prospectus soon, but yes, it’s the Clippers, and it has been worse.

by citizen zhiv on Feb 18, 2010 6:15 PM PST up reply actions  

It can always be worse

isn’t that pretty much the same as saying “It’s the Clippers”? Of course it could be worse but let’s try to get rid of the past and look forward. Independent odds right? Just because I flipped a coin heads 20 times in a row doesn’t change the fact there’s a 50% chance of it being heads again.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 19, 2010 2:38 AM PST up reply actions  

Plan B

Pull another Dunleavy… Do some sort of sign-and-trade that no one sees coming.

I’ll hazard that some team or another will want to dump salary (for whatever reason… maybe to get in the free agent melee) and see us, with our cap space and various medium talents, as an obvious trading partner.

Having younger “sign-and-trade” pieces, such as Outlaw, is another reason to like the Camby trade. I’ll never LOVE the Camby trade, but I think that SP is looking at it too narrowly. I never would have imagined the trade scenario Dunleavy came up with. I’m not about to underestimate him on this summer’s moves.

Swamigusto is probably right, for instance: In this economy, and with an abundance of attention directed elsewhere, it probably won’t be too difficult to drive a bargain with our medium talent free agents. It’s not such a big IF.

It probably IS a one in a million chance to get Lebron. Dunleavy knows that. I sincerely doubt he’s putting all his eggs in that basket. This is more about flexibility than LBJ.

by SilverClip on Feb 18, 2010 3:47 PM PST reply actions  

This is more about flexibility than LBJ.

^This.

But flexibility for what? I probably should have more faith than this, but hopefully not the flexibility to overpay for Rudy Gay.

It even rhymes, so it must be true.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 18, 2010 3:56 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm willing to overpay for Rudy Gay

Sign me up, the guy can play and fills our biggest need.

by The Blake Griffin Era on Feb 18, 2010 4:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Nope

But it is your cap space. A precious and finite resource.

I can already feel the buyer’s remorse.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 18, 2010 4:38 PM PST up reply actions  

If we are going to overpay anyone

then it might as well be Rudy Gay.

" Baron for the win, BINGO!!!! The Clipers Win, The Clippers win!!! "
Ralph Lawler

by bestclipfan on Feb 18, 2010 4:37 PM PST up reply actions  

A million permutations

Isn’t that what SP said?

I honestly don’t know specifically. But between various free agents, possible sign-and-trades, and/or resigning our own guys, I can see very clearly that there’s a lot more going on here than a solitary long shot.

by SilverClip on Feb 18, 2010 4:19 PM PST up reply actions  

Of those million

MANY are bad.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 18, 2010 4:37 PM PST up reply actions  

I SHOULD say

that I would have preferred the Iggy trade. We’re in an interesting place now between a major long shot and a whole lot of uncertainty. I don’t like having to work beneath the cap, and the only way above it is to resign a whole lot of our current medium talent. So I have a good idea what you mean by many bad permutations.

But what’s done is done, so I take where we are as a given. -Where are we? Ahhh, in a place with many options and one golden long shot. Let’s not forget about the “many options” part of it. Let’s not underestimate Dunleavy, either.

by SilverClip on Feb 18, 2010 4:47 PM PST up reply actions  

Iggy

Iggy for our 2010 Lottery Pick, obviously I would prefer Lebron, but this seems like a very realistic option.

we can make the same kind of trade that the Celts made for Ray Allen a few yrs back. Philly is terrible and needs to break up there team. They should welcome a lottery pick and not having to take back any bad contracts.

by The Blake Griffin Era on Feb 18, 2010 3:50 PM PST reply actions  

hehe

LeBron has been called many things, but “a much, much hotter lauren holly”? Steve, you are a Genius

by MagnusVonKilgore on Feb 18, 2010 4:23 PM PST reply actions  

plus 1

Gallows humor, I think. An awesome reference he uttered as he contemplated which poison… CS’ mood today seems rather Hamlet-esque, doesn’t it not? “Alas, poor Marcus…”

by John Raffo on Feb 18, 2010 8:00 PM PST up reply actions  

So many scenarios, so many options.

The big thing that keeps poking at me is the coexistence of B Diddy and either LBJ or Wade. I honestly don’t see it happening. In order for Baron to really flourish, he needs the ball in his hands. When he’s at his best, (imo) he’s a trick passing, fast break leading monster. I know that he’s regarded as one of the better offensive PG in the league, and I don’t disagree, rather I think this is one of the main problems with combining him with the aforementioned superstars.

I feel strongly that if our team is going to succeed (I’m talking Championship) after landing our Plan A (LBJ) or plan A1(Wade)… Baron can’t be here.
We would need a PG that is okay with bring the ball up half the time, and the other half running to a corner and waiting to catch and shoot.

Maybe I’m being too narrow minded about BD’s abilities, or his willingness to change…
But the idea of moving him also allows for us to sign a mega star whilst having a substantial bench if we move him for the right players…

Let’s pretend that we are able to move Baron for bench pieces similar to what we already have on the roster… to make it easy, we’ll keep the names the same.

Plan A

1- Steve Blake/Bobby Brown
2- Gordon/LBJ
3- LBJ/Outlaw/Griffin
4- Griffin/Rhino/DJ
5- Kaman/DJ

Plan A1 (this includes a sign & trade of Gordon for Wade)

1- Blake/Wade/Bobby Brown
2- Wade/Butler
3- Outlaw/Griffin/Butler
4- Griffin/Rhino/DJ
5-Kaman/DJ

Please tell me if I’m being crazy, or missing something regarding the cap…
But doesn’t the above line up sound better than having a barren wasteland on the bench? (pun intended)

If we are able to land one of these one in a million shots, I’d really love to see Baron get moved for 2 or 3 solid pieces that will shore up the team.

What are the chances of both happening? Now we’re talking more like 1 in a billion. But this is my ultimate best case scenario.

At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.

by Clipper T on Feb 18, 2010 4:32 PM PST reply actions  

To make this more concise in future discussions...

Anybody know what Baron’s cap number for next year is? I think it’s around the $12-13 million range, yes?

At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.

by Clipper T on Feb 18, 2010 5:26 PM PST up reply actions  

$13M

The problem is, it’s viewed as such a bad contract that you won’t get back attractive pieces. Any scenario in which you get rid of Baron’s contract, you have to assume you get nothing back, and you may even have to lose assets like a pick. Might it work out better than that? Sure, it might. But probably not.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Feb 18, 2010 5:33 PM PST up reply actions  

okay

but I’m trying to think about the Heat’s perspective. Let’s say they whiff over the Summer.

We say, “Hey Wade’s going to sign with us. Why don’t we give you BD and Gordon so that you still have a chance next year”

BD, Gordon and Beasley isn’t a terrible core to build around.

Again, silliness, but I’m not the only one saying it’s possible.

At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.

by Clipper T on Feb 18, 2010 5:36 PM PST up reply actions  

And...

if that is the case, can’t we do the sign and trade for Wade (max deal), sending them Baron Davis and Eric Gordon… and still have close to enough to grab LBJ? I know this is just foolhardy, but I’m trying figure out what’s feasible, not what’s likely.

Cap number currently at $17 mil. Trade Baron + Gordon (total of 16 mil) for a Wade max (16.5 mil) and we have 16.5 to offer LBJ.

At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.

by Clipper T on Feb 18, 2010 5:33 PM PST up reply actions  

Would the Heat

be better off just letting Wade walk and turning around to throw two max contracts at say Joe Johnson and Chris Bosh?

I also think that agreeing to sign and trade Wade puts them at risk of a serious PR backlash. I’m not sure Riles would want any part of that. They have to take the position that Wade ditched the city of Miami.

by madglove on Feb 18, 2010 5:43 PM PST up reply actions  

They certainly would be better off, no doubt.

But what if it becomes clear that they’re going to be screwed on all fronts…

what if
what if
what if

I’m getting too wrapped up in the possibilities, but it’s fun to hypothesize.
This obviously would take so many impossible acts of god, that’s it practically a waste of time to think about, and definitely not something MDsr is aiming for.

At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.

by Clipper T on Feb 18, 2010 5:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Its not going to happen

But Gordon and 3 first rounders?

Don’t you have to give it a look? You can still play the ditched card. “We had to or he was ditching us for nothing…”

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 18, 2010 5:53 PM PST up reply actions  

Your scenario...

Works under the cap. I’m not sure why the Heat would do it – one would imagine they’d get MUCH better offers for Wade. But it is technically possible.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Feb 18, 2010 6:14 PM PST up reply actions  

That's a fair and reasonable assessment.

At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.

by Clipper T on Feb 18, 2010 6:17 PM PST up reply actions  

The only

gripe I have with your logic is that the Heat are not going to get to pick Wade’s destination. It’s not like they can say, “well, Houston’s offer is better the Clipper’s”, because D-Wade will have already made his destination clear. So it’s more about the Heat getting as much as they can so they don’t have to have Beasley as they’re best player next year.

Again, very hypothetical.

At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.

by Clipper T on Feb 18, 2010 7:38 PM PST up reply actions  

true that

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Feb 18, 2010 8:35 PM PST up reply actions  

the thing is that whatever team lebron is on, he will be the guy witht he ball all the time. hence mo williams on the cavs.

brandon roy is the same way. if we actually got lebron somehow, steve blake actually would be a great pg for that team.

not baron. if dunleavy can somehow find a taker for baron it’d be the greatest coup of all time.

i mean if it came down to say, baron + lottery picks , for just cap space if we knew we had lebron wouldnt you do it? if you let baron be the “guy at the controls” you need guys who dont need the ball as much as lebron on your team. so maybe an iguodala or a “classical sf” would be better. like if durant or melo were free agents..

by hans007 on Feb 18, 2010 5:32 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm not much of a Baron lover...

But I think he showed a lot of flexibility this year. He’s sensitive, complicated, and a little insecure… traits that might disappear with LeBron or DWade running next to him. And he’s might be a an attractive piece to someone like LBJ. He seems to be well-liked by his fellow pros, he can certainly pass, sees the floor, has that great handle, and he does something LeBron doesn’t do… he’s got a for-real post up game. Those two with EJ and Griffin on the break… WOW.

by John Raffo on Feb 18, 2010 8:08 PM PST up reply actions  

True story

Sinead O’Connor once went to Prince’s house to discuss her work on his song, “Nothing Compares”.

They ended up getting in a fist fight. Can you imagine? Would have loved to have seen that.

Anyway, although it is his song (he is an excellent song writer), her version is MUCH better. Beautiful ballad.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 18, 2010 4:46 PM PST reply actions  

I like both versions....

But Sinead’s is better. I had not heard the fist fight story.

Another true story – I once went to a Halloween party as Sinead O’Connor. If you’re nice, maybe I’ll post a picture.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Feb 18, 2010 5:34 PM PST up reply actions  

LOL! I gotta see this!

"look, you can find any coach you want, bring him in here and run the situation. But I don't think they are going to do as good a job as I do." -Mike Dunleavy Sr.

by CLiPPz WeRD 12 on Feb 18, 2010 10:39 PM PST up reply actions  

Even though the chance is small I’m glad to take a shot at Lebron.

You have to remember, we aren’t talking about an all-star, or even a superstar… we are talking about a guy who has a decent chance to be the greatest of all time.

by DariusN on Feb 18, 2010 4:50 PM PST reply actions  

haven't read the whole post

but did catch that Lloyd quote…my gosh! what ever happened to Lauren Holly’s career!? she was so hot in that movie…

Roger Sterling: To my knees, Don. They're bringing to my knees!"

by Lawler's Law on Feb 18, 2010 4:59 PM PST reply actions  

What happened to Lauren Holly's career?

She doesn’t sleep with Jim Carry anymore. She’s not much of an actress, but she is indeed quite hot.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Feb 18, 2010 5:37 PM PST up reply actions  

+1 on that

I’m surprised Jenny McCarthy doesn’t have an Academy award by now.

At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.

by Clipper T on Feb 18, 2010 5:40 PM PST up reply actions  

Jim Carrey also dated local Fox weather girl Maria Quiban. Fine pinay.

by wilriv21 on Feb 18, 2010 6:55 PM PST up reply actions  

Let us develop our own BG into super star

I am totally agree, it is a very long shot more likely billion to 1 to land LBJ next summer, why not keep what we already own plus the first round pick.

You never know our BG may turn out a bigger stat than LBJ five years from now.

by Pats fan in CA on Feb 18, 2010 5:03 PM PST reply actions  

Bryon Scott as next head coach

Why dont we pay our attention to our next head coach selection.

by Pats fan in CA on Feb 18, 2010 5:05 PM PST reply actions  

Well...

ultimately, if we want to bring in one of these uber-stars, they will probably be given some choice in the matter of head coach. I honestly don’t think we’ll hire a coach until the free agent dust settles. Could work against us, simply because a star might be attracted to a big name coach, or disinterested due to a head coaching void, but this is my prediction (and preference) nonetheless.

At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.

by Clipper T on Feb 18, 2010 5:18 PM PST up reply actions  

LBJ will make that call when that bridge neds to be crossed

Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.

by HVYDRT007 on Feb 18, 2010 5:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Trade Baron and Kaman, and go for 2 max free agents

Trade Kaman to Detoit for Daye (they will have some cap space).

Trade Baron + Lottery Pick to Toronto for Calderon (looks like they will have cap space too)

This leaves us with an interesting young team:
Calderon ($8M)
EJ ($3M)
Daye ($2M)
BG ($5M)
DJ ($1M)

AND it allows us to go for 2 Max-Level players. Pick any two from the following:
Lebron James, Joe Johnson, Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosh, Iggy, etc.

Imagine the final lineup!!

Calderon / Brown
Joe Johnson / EJ
Lebron James / Daye
Griffin / Rhino
DJ / Skinner / Sofo

by bballanalyst on Feb 18, 2010 5:37 PM PST reply actions  

Your Toronto trade works as a non-simultaneous (absorb Calderon then send BDavis)

But your Detroit trade isn’t even close? I don’t have them having nearly enough cap room to absorb Kaman like that without matching?

By the way, thats a great cautionary tale right?

CAP SPACE GONE WRONG – Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 18, 2010 5:42 PM PST up reply actions  

I think you are right

Detroit has around $48M guaranteed for next year. So we would need to take back Maxiell ($5M) and flip him to another team.

by bballanalyst on Feb 18, 2010 5:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Agreed.

Charlie & Ben = Worst GM-ing ever.

by Erik O on Feb 18, 2010 6:02 PM PST up reply actions  

What was weird...

Is that they made the signings so quickly, as if that was the plan straight out of the gate, as if they were worried that someone else was going to heap gobs of money on BGordon and CV.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Feb 18, 2010 6:16 PM PST up reply actions  

Offer LeBron equity?

Is it legal to offer a player equity in the team he is joining? Imagine how much the value of the clips would appreciate should lbj come over.

by gskow on Feb 18, 2010 5:49 PM PST via mobile reply actions  

Lebron to the Clips would be great

but if he doesnt decide to come to LA, Rudy Gay would be a nice pick up. We can resign the talent we have. We have this years Draft pick, with Minnys pick in 2011/2012.

Sual, Rhino, Blake, Outlaw, and bring back Camby

A lot of options. Kudos to Dunleavy

by big0lbad on Feb 18, 2010 5:52 PM PST reply actions  

Sign and Trade Options (if no Lebron)

1) Target Carmelo Anthony

Is it me or is Denver ridiculously over the cap next year ($73.3M)? If Denver is bounced from the playoffs early…I’ve got to think that things might fall apart over there. Carmelo’s DUI past may also not be a great character fit for Colorado. However, if Denver needs to shed salary…how would a sign and trade be structured, third team would need to be involved, right?

Target Gerald Wallace

With a new change in ownership taking place in Charlotte, things could easily be shaken up with the new owner wanting to go in a different direction. Also, Gerald has been mentioned in trade deals often enough over the past two years…this summer may be it.

by banandy on Feb 18, 2010 5:55 PM PST reply actions  

Wallace is Charlotte's star

So I would think you need to toss Gordon into the deal. Gordon for Wallace (and something to make the salary work or whatever.) Do it then?

by Michael White on Feb 18, 2010 5:57 PM PST up reply actions  

Yup

Don’t see Charlotte trading their best player for a draft pick a few years into the future.

So ya, I guess we can target Wallace so long as we are offering something won’t take. Wallace is a stud, they would want Gordon, and I might be willing to do that.

by Michael White on Feb 18, 2010 6:54 PM PST up reply actions  

You write the truth

Sure there have been lots of trade rumors about Wallace, but those have all come from teams that wanted to trade for Wallace. I doubt he’s ever really been on the trading block or at least not to the extent that the rumors would make it appear.

It’s not like the Bobcats have had a lot of great players in their short history, but Gerald Wallace has been there since the expansion draft. He’s the star player on the first Bobcat team to make the playoffs (hopefully this year), and he’ll likely be the first Bobcat jersey retired. Crash plays with so much hustle and abandon, and he is more valuable to Charlotte than he could be anywhere else. IMO, Charlotte would have to be blown away by a lopsided offer in their favor to trade Wallace, and EJ wouldn’t be enough.

by ClipCat on Feb 19, 2010 7:51 AM PST up reply actions  

They might

While Wallace is the better player currently, he’s also older (turns 28 this summer), has durability concerns, his game is predicated on his athleticism (which is the first thing to go from older players, see Shawn Marion) and he has a way bigger contract (we can get EJ for as cheaply as 3 more years for 12 mill) while Wallace cost almost 3 times that (3 years 30 mill). That’s a lot of money for a small market team.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 19, 2010 11:47 AM PST up reply actions  

Would you do it?

EJ for Wallace?

If you did that, you could sign a SG in free agency like Allen who won’t break the bank. The team will be older to be sure, but pretty darn solid with

BD
Allen
Wallace
Griffin
Kaman

Need a solid bench to go with it, but that is a good looking team.

And I really like EJ too, but this would be the sort of target I would be okay trading EJ for.

by Michael White on Feb 19, 2010 11:52 AM PST up reply actions  

I agree with you, but I was trying to point out that Wallace has a special value in Charlotte (where I live) right now that goes beyond just his contract and skill. Charlotte with EJ instead of Wallace IMO would be on the outside looking in at the Playoffs unless EJ suddenly developed into a #1 option on offense. And I’m not denigrating EJ as both he and Crash are two of my favorite NBA players to watch.

Wallace is definitely worth what he’s paid even if Charlotte does have a lot of other bad contracts hurting them. I am concerned about how he’ll age as he’s already taken a huge number of hits and plays very heavy minutes often out of position at PF.

by ClipCat on Feb 19, 2010 2:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Josh Childress

The right SF at the right price, leaving plenty of money for other moves.

I win the thread.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 18, 2010 5:58 PM PST reply actions  

Childress?

I suppose I’d be up for that, if we resign all of our current players. Though, I might have a couple of reservations:
1. I’m not sure he’s still a starting SF in this league.
2. Childress might have the second ugliest shot in the league. (The first being Shawn Marion, and Kevin Martin right there at third)

by Erik O on Feb 18, 2010 6:01 PM PST up reply actions  

You might even be able

To get a verbal deal with him in place, gobble back up all the Bird FA you want to retain, then use the MLE to get him.

Maybe.

I like almost any scenario where your SF is described as between Marion and Martin.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 18, 2010 6:06 PM PST up reply actions  

A good concept

but we’ll still end up with out a The Man.

At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.

by Clipper T on Feb 18, 2010 6:11 PM PST up reply actions  

True

But, at least the last time he was in the NBA, he was secretly very above average.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 18, 2010 6:14 PM PST up reply actions  

Also true

Would you prefer him over Gay as a player? Or just because of the cap implications?
I think I would take Gay, as long we don’t have to give him a completely ridiculous deal (which may be the case)

At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.

by Clipper T on Feb 18, 2010 6:20 PM PST up reply actions  

I would rather have Josh Childress than Rudy Gay

in a vacuum. The likely salaries only makes the gap bigger.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 18, 2010 6:24 PM PST up reply actions  

well...

after reviewing your comparison of Gay vs. Thornton, I think my opinion of Gay has changed pretty drastically. For some reason I thought he was a much more productive player than that. Maybe it’s because when I’m watching him, he’s player the Clippers.

At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.

by Clipper T on Feb 18, 2010 6:54 PM PST up reply actions  

Gay and Childress

are very different players. Childress is a excellent defender who is the glue guy we need (I wanted us to go after him last summer). Gay is a very talented offensive player who truth be told has been disappointing. After seeing his average jump to 20ppg in his 2nd year he’s already kind of peaked as his numbers the next two years have even gone down slightly. He does have more potential than Childress and he’s only 23 (Childress is 26) so he could get even better than what he is. But given how scorers tend to get more billing I think Childress would cost 30% less than Gay, making him the more logical addition.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 18, 2010 9:03 PM PST up reply actions  

I think so

he doesn’t shoot many though. From the stats I found he does make 36% of his attempts but he only shot 1 per game. So I’m guessing he can hit them if he’s wide open but he isn’t going to take pull up ones in transition (a good thing anyways).

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 19, 2010 2:41 AM PST up reply actions  

Hawks

He’s still an RFA for the Hawks, IIRC. With so much money tied up in other contracts, and Joe Johnson to re-sign, they might not care, but in general you still have to overpay to sign RFAs.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Feb 18, 2010 6:19 PM PST up reply actions  

They would pay the tax to retain their 3rd or 4th SF?

I’m counting on them keeping Johnson and paying mightily for the privilege in this scenario of course.

$16.5M to Johnson
$11.6M to Smith
$6.7M to Williams

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 18, 2010 6:23 PM PST up reply actions  

He wouldn't be their 3rd or 4th SF

JJ currently plays SG for them, though he could play SF if needed.
Smith plays PF for them
Marvin Williams plays SF
Childress plays SG/SF, they also have Crawford playing SG/PG.

Whether the Hawks would match depends. They do have a pricey payroll already but Crawford is a FA after next year. He’s definitely a guy we can pick up and I don’t think the Hawks will match the offer. I say we target Joe Johnson first, make the Hawks commit 13-14 million per year and then we go for Childress. Its kind of like what the Heat did to us with FElton and Odom years ago.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 18, 2010 6:48 PM PST up reply actions  

I'll admit to not watching every Hawks game

But 82games has Williams getting the biggest chunk of minutes at the 3 with Johnson getting the next biggest piece. Those two are currently taking up 75% of the Hawk’s minutes at SF.

It actually makes me like Johnson at the 3 a little more, but its still not going to happen…

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 18, 2010 6:58 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes.

Don’t know if his reason(s) for going to Europe was driven by dollars, but you’re thinking of the right dude. Think baby-fro, odd jump shot, Stanford… that guy.

Speaking of Childress, everyone should go to Youtube and enter “Childress + The shot” to see one of the best final minutes of college basketball ever. What a great game. Arizona still hasn’t recovered from that one.

At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.

by Clipper T on Feb 18, 2010 9:54 PM PST up reply actions  

Im all for a Ron Artest defensive stopper at the 3

Rasual has played good but it would be awesome to have someone dominate at the 3

by big0lbad on Feb 18, 2010 10:10 PM PST up reply actions  

*reason for going to Europe was SOLEY driven by dollars

At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.

by Clipper T on Feb 18, 2010 10:13 PM PST up reply actions  

Childress

He’s from LA (Lakewood to be exact, went to Mayfair). He actually went because they paid him net (3 years 20 million) which is the same as being paid 3 years 32.5 million here. He has one year left on his deal over there so its uncertain if he’ll come back but I think he would because this would be his last chance to sign a long term deal with a US club under the existing CBA. If he doesn’t come back this year he might end up not come back for awhile.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 19, 2010 2:45 AM PST up reply actions  

Good call

I was thinking about him the other day.

Plus, now is a good time to get out of Greece.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 19, 2010 10:04 AM PST up reply actions  

Excellent Post

Thanks so much Steve, and very informative. You understand the cap better than any blogger out there.

by BtheKUTA on Feb 18, 2010 6:56 PM PST reply actions  

Trade Kaman

I dont know why everybody likes Kaman.He doesnt play defense and rebound enough.He’s like rudy gay all he does is score we need more than that.Let’s just hope we get pick 1 or 2 cause i think that evans kid is going to be the best player in the draft

by clip shot on Feb 18, 2010 7:42 PM PST reply actions  

Great post Steve.

I must say this though.

Roster Charges are $473,604.
Roster Charges are for each spot under a 12 man roster.
12th spot is never counted as a roster charge.

For example:
Baron + EJ + Blake + DJ + Kaman + 10th Pick (I used a hold of $2M) + 5 Roster Charges = $37,696,369.

That is for 11 roster spots. LeBron would be the 12th, therefore no 12th charge is needed.
His starting salary would be $16, 568,908 (105% of his current salary).

We would need the Cap to come in at $54,265,277 to break even.

The cap was recently speculated to come in higher than expected, which would make things much easier for us.

Of course, as you have mentioned, a very important decision must be made if we end up getting a top 3 pick. We would have to trade somebody or something. The best possible scenario (if we got a top pick) would involve us getting the number 1 pick, taking Wall and moving Baron; or we could move Kaman and re-sign Camby. That’s a lot more work and a lot more fancy maneuvering than we hope to be doing.

That would be just like the Clippers though. To have enough money to get LeBron and luck up in the lottery by getting a top pick and eating up cap room.

by Lawler 4ever on Feb 18, 2010 9:55 PM PST reply actions  

No Problem.

I’ve been playing around with the salaries in excel for quite some time (months). Yesterday I got a little help from Larry Coon himself on Twitter.

Check out shamsports.com for team salaries and draft pick holds

by Lawler 4ever on Feb 18, 2010 10:52 PM PST up reply actions  

I went back over this and realized I made a $67,000 error.

The salary for BD, EJ, DJ, BG, CK, 10th pick and 5 roster charges is $37,763,712

I also attempted to get a better calculation of the hold rather than using the estimate.

Cap hold for 10th pick for the 2008-2009 season $1.75M
Cap hold for 10th pick for the 2009-2010 season is $1.81M

I went through the top 12 picks between the 2 years and the difference is approximately 1.0333%-1.0334%.

So the 2010-2011 cap hold should be $1,867,343.56 give or take a few dollars.

A more accurate break-even point would be $54,332,620.

by Lawler 4ever on Feb 19, 2010 11:50 AM PST up reply actions  

Wow

Are you sure it’s 12 and not 13? 13 would make sense to me, simply because teams are required to carry 13 contracts during the season.

I knew the charge figure, but just used $500K for the back of the envelope calculation. The bottom line is that it’s going to be VERY close on the draft pick, but I think the odds are that we can’t keep the pick AND make the max offer. But we won’t know that until we know the cap figure.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Feb 18, 2010 10:47 PM PST up reply actions  

Yup, just confirmed.

…“a roster charge if the team has fewer than 12 players (players under contract, free agents included in team salary, players given offer sheets, and first round draft picks). The roster charge is equal to the rookie minimum salary for each player below 12. The roster charge only applies during the offseason.”

At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.

by Clipper T on Feb 18, 2010 10:53 PM PST up reply actions  

This was his tweet to a fellow tweeter earlier today.

@LarryCoon
  
No — team never has 12th contract and 12th hold at same time. RT @Hoopdata: when signing 12th player, do I consider 12th cap hold?

by Lawler 4ever on Feb 18, 2010 10:57 PM PST up reply actions  

hmmm.

“That’s a lot more work and a lot more fancy maneuvering than we hope to be doing”

You make it sound like lucking into to consecutive number one picks would be a curse. I know it would force us to make a few more important decisions, but if you let me have my choice, I’d take the number one overall pick (John Wall) and the complications in a millisecond.

At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.

by Clipper T on Feb 18, 2010 10:19 PM PST reply actions  

sorry, thought I clicked reply.

At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.

by Clipper T on Feb 18, 2010 10:19 PM PST up reply actions  

LOL

You’re right. It’s good problem to have like it was a good problem to win the Blake Griffin sweepstakes despite have 3 players (2 future All-Stars) playing in the front court. It’s still a problem though lol.

What I was basically (sarcastically) saying is that if we win a top 3 pick, that is going to change and complicate everything regarding LeBron to the Clips. If we are still playing for LeBron, then we must trade one of the guys that we plan on keeping. The only guy that would totally be safe is Griffin imo.

1.) Wall, makes it easier to want to part with Baron. How easy would it be to move Baron though?
2.) Turner, means that Gordon would likely be the odd man out (if we kept Turner). Turner could also be a nice parting gift for the Cavs in a sign & trade since he is an Ohio State alum.
3.) Cousins means that we look to move Kaman. I would say that Kaman could be moved much easier than Baron and would likely have some takers.

Obviously, you don’t move anybody unless you have secured the king.

If it did come down to this, I have confidence that GMMDsr would make it work.

If we’re looking towards less than max guys (which is more probable than not), then the higher the pick the better.

Just so we are on the same page, I want to let you know that I would not be disappointed if we won a top 3 pick. I’m definitely hoping that Roeser is wearing another custom jacket and pulls out the upset again.

by Lawler 4ever on Feb 18, 2010 10:47 PM PST up reply actions  

Oh man...

The jacket was my favorite part of the whole thing! (besides actually getting the pick) I really want a jacket like that. Amazing!

Yeah, I wasn’t trying to be too critical. Just felt like stating for the record that high pick is never a bad thing, unless you use it on someone named Olowokandi.

At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.

by Clipper T on Feb 18, 2010 11:00 PM PST up reply actions  

Fortunately, a Kandiman type pick wouldn't be an issue.

I love the idea of thing about LeBron coming here, and the odds may be a little better than Lloyd Christmas’, but it’s all about improving the team anyway possible. I’m just havinhg fun with it.

Adding one of the best players in the draft and shoring up any holes via free-agency is the ultimate goal in all of this. Hopefully, we find out that Blake is our superstar and that anyone added this summer is just icing on the cake.

by Lawler 4ever on Feb 18, 2010 11:05 PM PST up reply actions  

Amen to that.

At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.

by Clipper T on Feb 18, 2010 11:10 PM PST reply actions  

Let Dunleavy work his magic

and shut up already! Dunleavy wabts to go down in history as the man who turned around the worst franchise in sports! Let him DO IT!
He knows what he is doing, and, like Steve Perrin is saying, he’ll do something.

by DonaldSterlingSucks on Feb 19, 2010 2:52 AM PST reply actions  

Hey Steve..

I’m trying to see if I have a grasp on the cap space situation.. I posted this on another board, but I was hoping you could check my math on it…

Bosh for Kaman + our 2010 first rounder..

However, we would not have enough cap space to sign Lebron, if my numbers are correct..

Bosh – $16,568,907
Baron – $13,000,000
Griffin – $5,357,280
Gordon – $3,016,680
Jordan – $854,389 (Can be waived, but just turns into a $500K cap hold – keep him)

Total = $38,797,256
Cap = $54,000,000 (Hopefully!)

Cap Holds = 6 * 500K/each = $3,000,000 (should be around this number)

Total Cap Space = $12,202,743

The $12 million would probably be enough to pry Rudy Gay from the Grizzlies, so we could end up with a lineup of..

Bosh
Griffin
Gay
Gordon
Baron

Is that enough to make Bosh want to sign with us? Through the sign-and-trade, he would get an extra year on his contract, so maybe that would help. Who knows?

"look, you can find any coach you want, bring him in here and run the situation. But I don't think they are going to do as good a job as I do." -Mike Dunleavy Sr.

by CLiPPz WeRD 12 on Feb 19, 2010 2:04 PM PST reply actions  

That's really interesting.

It doesn’t hurt that Bosh and Boom are pretty good friends. We’d be OK in most match-ups, but have problems going against Bynum, Oden, Nene and other legitimate bigs.

We’d probably need to hire Van Gundy as coach so that these guys would consider playing some defense.

by Lawler 4ever on Feb 19, 2010 2:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Seems accurate

I didn’t go through line by line, but you seem to have the bases covered. And yes, since Bosh makes more than Kaman by about $5M, the available cap space is going to decrease by about $5M in this scenario. So it looks good to me.

From a hoops standpoint, I’m not actually convinced that Bosh is worth that contract. Plan A should definitely be LeBron, but if he makes it clear it’s not an option, then it’s definitely time to look at other ideas.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Feb 19, 2010 3:07 PM PST up reply actions  

Thanks!

Yeah, this one is definitely not at the top of the list for me neither.. I guess it’s another option to think about, with the long list of ideas for the summer!

I agree in the thinking that Bosh isn’t worth that contract, but I really think he’ll get it from someone.

"look, you can find any coach you want, bring him in here and run the situation. But I don't think they are going to do as good a job as I do." -Mike Dunleavy Sr.

by CLiPPz WeRD 12 on Feb 19, 2010 8:54 PM PST up reply actions  

Bosh is worth the max

the guy is dominating this year, his PER is over 26 and he’s only turning 26 next month. Seeing how hard it is to get a star big man you have to think hard about this trade. Question would you rather have Chris Bosh and (insert random veteran pickup) or Chris Kaman and Steve Blake (who will make 4-5 million next year).

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 19, 2010 11:04 PM PST up reply actions  

I like it

And it might even work! $12M for Gay would be enough to lure him, for better or worse. I’d like to get even more clever and work out a sign and trade with Outlaw, bring in a different SF.

But Bosh in place of Kaman is appealing. Very creative. We could pick up a PG the following year with our MLE or in the draft.

How do you suppose Bosh feels about LA?

by SilverClip on Feb 19, 2010 3:14 PM PST up reply actions  

I don’t get the logic of attempting to upgrade the position we are arguably strongest at (starting center) with a guy who is a power forward. If you are going to replace players on the current roster, I would think the plan would be:

1) SF
2) PG
3) SG
4) C
5) PF

And spots 3-5 could be fudged. The shooting guard is not a problem, particularly given his salary, but you could use EJ (who is still an undersized SG) to upgrade your SF spot (like perhaps grabbing Wallace from Charlotte.) Power forward is the least likely spot to be upgraded simply because Griffin is supposedly the franchise savior, but I would love to bring in a competent PF to start in front of Griffin, at least to start, since it will have been so long since Griffin has played basketball and he’s never played in the NBA. The Center position is arguably the most stable, since Kaman’s contract is fairly reasonable, and once you get over the fact that he looks goofy, he is actually a good player. It’s hard to find legit 7’’ centers in the NBA who are good, as evidenced by the fact that you want to bring one in who is neither a center, nor a 7 footer, and would make more than Kaman and throw in a first round pick for Toronto’s “trouble.”

by Michael White on Feb 19, 2010 3:23 PM PST up reply actions  

I see your point

I have a habit of thinking of Bosh as capable at both positions.

I haven’t been all that impressed with Kaman lately, which explains my temptation here. But I’m not one of those guys who is so eager to condemn his play. If we REALLY did this trade, then I would certainly think twice.

What I’m more into is CLIPPz’s creativity here. We ought to keep brainstorming about possible, unusual combinations of moves. To get a big name and then use the excitement to lure another 2nd tier guy is a cool idea. It gets us into the frame of mind: “What happens if we don’t land Lebron?”

by SilverClip on Feb 19, 2010 3:35 PM PST up reply actions  

I like Kaman, but..

If I could choose between Bosh and Kaman, I would take Bosh every day, regardless of position.

Bosh is more efficient and more productive than Kaman, and he can shoot the 3. However, I think I would rather have a $10 million Kaman, than a max contract Bosh. When you think about Lebron at the max, then you think about Bosh at the max, it’s like night and day. I think if Kaman becomes the number 2 or 3 option (behind Lebron and Griffin), then he’ll be much more useful.

"look, you can find any coach you want, bring him in here and run the situation. But I don't think they are going to do as good a job as I do." -Mike Dunleavy Sr.

by CLiPPz WeRD 12 on Feb 19, 2010 9:12 PM PST up reply actions  

Well Kaman

is actually going to make 11.3 million next year. Not sure if that moves the needle for you at all but…

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 19, 2010 11:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Nah..

Still a bargain.

"look, you can find any coach you want, bring him in here and run the situation. But I don't think they are going to do as good a job as I do." -Mike Dunleavy Sr.

by CLiPPz WeRD 12 on Feb 20, 2010 3:49 PM PST up reply actions  

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