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Around SBN: Knicks Beat Lakers With Familiar Strategy

Clippers 98 - Charlotte 94 - Two in a Row

The Clippers' win tonight was notable for several things.  For one, the Clippers have won back-to-back games after losing six in a row - that in an of itself is big news.  For another, Theo Ratliff (10 points) outscored Stephen Jackson (7 points) for the Bobcats.  That's just bizarre.  For a third, the Clippers looked deep in this game - which is something that hasn't happened very often.

Player for player, you wouldn't really think that Gooden-Outlaw-Blake for Camby-Thornton-Telfair would make a significant difference for team depth.  Camby is the best player of the bunch, and theoretically Thornton and Telfair are legitimate NBA talents, so it doesn't seem like it should add much.  Maybe it's just the fact that this game comes on the heels of a few where we were seeing a lot of Steve Novak and Bobby Brown and Mardy Collins and Brian Skinner in the rotation.  Maybe it's the fact that Thornton and Rasual Butler never seemed to play well at the same time all season.  Maybe it's that Blake is the type of back up point guard that will steady the ship and make plays for teammates, while Telfair is more mercurial.  Whatever the reason, there wasn't ever a rotation tonight where I thought to myself, "uh oh, this could get ugly."

Star-divide

Indeed, looking at the plus/minus ratings for this game, my general impression is justified.  For the nine Clippers who played in this game, the highest rating was a +6 for Drew Gooden, the lowest rating was a -1 for Craig Smith, and no other Clipper was in negative territory.  That tells me that the nine guys who saw action all played reasonably well and at least held their own.

In fact, it strikes me as noteworthy that each of the nine had significant positive stats - every single one of them had at least 7 of something good.  Six scored in double figures.  Baron Davis and Chris Kaman had double doubles.  Even the guys who didn't reach double figure scoring had solid outings - Craig Smith had 7 points and 7 rebounds, DeAndre Jordan had 9 points and 5 rebounds, and Steve Blake had 3 points and 7 assists.  Basically, if you were playing fantasy basketball and you had any one of the nine Clippers who played, they gave you at least something.  And that doesn't happen very often in the NBA, that everyone contributes.

The team continues to struggle mightily with turnovers - tonight it was newcomer Gooden leading the way with 5 of the team's 18.  It's actually quite an accomplishment to overcome 18 turnovers against a decent team in the Bobcats.  They were able to overcome it mostly because of their total domination of the glass.  The Clippers outrebounded Charlotte 48-33, 15 to 10 in offensive rebounds. 

Baron Davis wasn't exactly spectacular in his return to action, but he was solid and his defense on Stephen Jackson was the best part of his game to me.  Baron, when motivated as he was against his old pal Jax, can be an outstanding defender.  Jackson clearly was having an off-night (he finished an abysmal 1 for 16, and he came into the game white hot), and part of that was just him, but part of it can be attributed to Baron, who drew the assignment against the much taller Jackson.  If Baron can provide solid defense and double figure assists for the Clippers next season as he did tonight, I'll definitely take that.

Gooden and Outlaw each scored 8 points in the first half, on terrific shooting.  They each finished with 10.  Gooden got most of his points on hard work - offensive rebounds and follows.  Outlaw, who had been struggling to make shots way back in November before getting hurt, came in and hit his first three jumpers, which had to feel good.  Don't be surprised to see Gooden in the starting lineup next to Kaman very soon - that's the team they went with down the stretch tonight.  (Of course, I have mixed feelings about that.  These last couple months should be all about developing DeAndre Jordan.  But assuming Jordan gets solid minutes off the bench, I can cope with Gooden in the starting lineup.)

And then there is the comeback.  I would not have thought this team capable, or perhaps interested, in mounting a comeback at this point in the season.  But after losing a 13 point first half lead, and falling behind by 6 with five and a half minutes to go in the game, the Clippers went on a 16-4 run to take control.  The offense was keyed by Rasual Butler hitting a couple of crucial three pointers, but the Clippers really won the game on the defensive end, which had to please coach Kim Hughes no end.

Hughes has a full team again, and will even get to put Gooden through a practice now.  They also have a struggling opponent coming into Staples on Wednesday night.  Can the Clippers put three wins in a row together?

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happy that they didnt fall apart after blowing the lead and going down 4(or 6)

by Piatkowski fan! on Feb 22, 2010 11:49 PM PST reply actions  

I was at the game tonight...

and continue to be impressed with Steve Blake. I didn’t know much about him when we got him, but my best friend called him a poor man’s Steve Nash – and I am definitely starting to see what he means. Active on defense, crisp ball distribution, reliable ball-handling, and a fairly consistent jump shot. And I love his pass-first mentality. He seems to have really good court vision, too, as well as pretty nice basketball IQ. It’s good to have someone like that to go to if/when BD gets into his damn funks. Also…Drew Gooden was right when he said that people would be wondering why the hell he’s been traded so much. He has an arsenal of shots to choose from – including a nice baby hook. And he’s aggressive, WITHIN the offense. He knows when it’s right to go to the hole, and makes quick decisions. Anyway, I had a great night. Thanks for your writeup, Steve. It was nice to come home to. GO CLIPPERS!

by The Only Team That Matters on Feb 23, 2010 12:02 AM PST reply actions  

steve nash does not play defense.

... we sittin here talking about practice. not a game, not a game.

by wongy on Feb 23, 2010 1:29 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Low turn over

You left out one important asset of Steve Blake,

by Pats fan in CA on Feb 23, 2010 1:11 PM PST up reply actions  

DJ's dunk

was #1 on ESPN’s top ten tonight. What a monster posterization. Theo Ratliff got completely and utterly abused on the play. I know it’s nothing to get super happy about, I just love plays like that. Just imagine when Griffin is back next year… those two guys are going to be a lot of fun to watch together. There will be potential for one of those shame-inducing dunks every night. Go DJ!!!

At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.

by Clipper T on Feb 23, 2010 12:10 AM PST reply actions  

I Caught This Game

on atdhe.net and since it was the only game airing in that time slot it had my full attention. Rasual Butler had one of his better shooting performances of the season and Chris Kaman is an underrated talent. Now that the Clips are healthy, I’m intrigued to see how well they can end this season.

Brad James

by the new Bradfather on Feb 23, 2010 12:40 AM PST reply actions  

Long time Clip fan, new Clips Nation poster...

Hi y’all…Fun game tonight, a bit sloppy and scrappy at times but the Clips pulled it out! I agree with your sentiments Steve, the Clips looked unusually deep tonight. I dunno if we should continually expect the same performance from Outlaw and Blake every night…still, it was fun to watch.

I might add that while the turnovers were still plaguing us tonight, the majority of them happened in the second-half, if Im not mistaken. We were actually looking really solid in the first two quarters. And for all the turnovers that Gooden had, he also snagged 9 rebounds with 5 of them coming on offense…

Not the prettiest win but hey its a W…two in a row? I think thats called a streak!

Halos & Clips...must have something to do with the color red and jaded pasts...

by BryanHarvey'sMoustache on Feb 23, 2010 1:20 AM PST reply actions  

Welcome...

The fact that the turnovers were concentrated in the second half is good and bad. They showed that they could take care of the ball in the first, but then reverted in the second, and it seemed (especially in the third period) that it would be the difference between winning and losing. As for Gooden, he does have the excuse of playing in his first game with a new team, so some miscues are to be expected. But you can’t win on any sort of consistent basis turning the ball over this much, so it has to change or it’s going to be a long couple of months.

Welcome to Clips Nation. Thanks for the comment.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Feb 23, 2010 9:26 AM PST up reply actions  

The Bench...

53% shooting on the night for our bench. That’s the kind of efficiency we’ve been missing.

At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.

by Clipper T on Feb 23, 2010 1:46 AM PST reply actions  

On top of the win...

Getting to see the clippers for a #1 on ESPN’s top ten plays is the cherry on top. The new clippers are just what I needed to keep the rest of the season interesting. We may not make the playoffs but its nice knowing that every night we at least have a chance to win. The Bobcats are a hot team and we did a great job of cooling them off tonight.

by Mr.Sparkle on Feb 23, 2010 3:16 AM PST reply actions  

Blake

Steve,

Do you think having a guy like Blake on the team will light a fire under Baron?Telfair was never a threat to compete for Baron’s job but it seems like Blake could challenge him if he does his flameout ala last year.

by sqiuggy on Feb 23, 2010 4:49 AM PST reply actions  

Good Game

It cost the Clips some ping pong balls, but it was nice to win two in a row and go back to thinking that the Clippers have some weapons and cohesion and might be a credible team.

Good points on BD’s defense and all-around game. He looked a mite slow and hesitant and even weak, although he was stout on defense. It seems like his back might be bothering him and he doesn’t have the higher gear that he had developed again going into the season. He played within the game and himself, however, although there were times when I was wondering if Blake wouldn’t be better out there. BD needs to be playing at that higher level to be the clear cut choice. It seems like he might be sensing that Blake is a threat to his status and minutes, but he doesn’t have the strength and health right now to assert himself more decisively.

Have to say that I rather liked the twin towers and the Kaman-Jordan starting lineup. It got Jordan off to a good start, and seemed to set the tone on the boards. Kaman is a funny guy. Without Camby around, and with Kim Hughes making the point to him emphatically, he’s crashing the boards with much more effort now, and doing a nice job on the defensive glass. The small lineup with Gooden and Smith as the second team made me nervous, and the rotation doesn’t seem perfect, but it’s a start. And I wouldn’t jump too fast to put Gooden in the starting lineup and sit DJordan down. Especially if BDavis can find his motor and sharpen up his passing, Jordan could get some nice opportunities like he did a few times last night and in that big first half in Memphis when Kaman was out.

A long way to go to figure out Gooden and Outlaw and how they fit and what everybody else is going to do. Seems like we know SBlake well enough already, and really likey. Have to calculate the chances of getting to 30 wins or 40 losses first, but these two in a row will keep me from going on Draft Express in February.

by citizen zhiv on Feb 23, 2010 7:34 AM PST reply actions  

"It cost the Clips some ping pong balls . . . "

I am not thinking along such lines this year. Doesn’t that adage get old when used year after year after year?

IMO The Clippers need to field a competent team if they are ever going to attract free agents (other than BD who was offered a ridiculous contract). See Jason Williams who retired rather than play for MDSr.

Particularly this year.

We should focus on playing well together as a team. That would help the free agents to see how good the team can be next year with BG back.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 9:42 AM PST up reply actions  

After each of the last two victories, at least one Clip player (last night it was Rasual, I can’t remember who it was after Sac game) uttered the word “playoffs” in post game interviews. They downplayed it to be sure and acknowledged the tough road to that goal. But I think we need to ask ourselves whether we should even be talking about maximizing ping pong balls. Lost in all of this is the fact that we’ve only played 56 games. Play .667 ball for the remaining 27 games and the record is 41-41. Admittedly tough but not inconceivable with the current depth and health (both of which are always tenuous) of the team.

What makes the team more attractive for a top level FA – a .500 record with a talent rich team finally finding its stride in the last quarter of the season. Or a team that intentionally gives up (again), ends up at 30-52 and has a slim shot at John Wall? I said several weeks ago that I would consider the season a success with a .500 record, and I’m sticking to that goal. So I’ll take the former….

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein

by Another son of Mike Smith on Feb 23, 2010 7:55 AM PST reply actions  

screw the lottery

What fan watches a game and secretly hopes for losses (or at the very least takes some consolation in the team losing)? Besides the lottery is never a sure thing, we have as much chance at another yaroslav as we do a wall, so why not appreciate the effort, pull for our guys, and enjoy both team and individual player growth the rest of the way?

by Joe Wolf's Mullet on Feb 23, 2010 8:06 AM PST via mobile up reply actions  

+1

The Clips have earned enough ping pong balls the last two years. It’s time to let someone else have a turn. But I’m not so worried about their final record either. As long as the players play hard, and DJ gets playing time, then I’m satisfied. EJ stepping up his game a bit and Kaman continuing to crash the boards would be really encouraging signs.

by ClipCat on Feb 23, 2010 8:09 AM PST up reply actions  

Secretly?

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 23, 2010 11:03 AM PST up reply actions  

also if we are going for a big time FA

we are going to have to trade our pick anyways so no reason in trying to lose.

" Baron for the win, BINGO!!!! The Clipers Win, The Clippers win!!! "
Ralph Lawler

by bestclipfan on Feb 23, 2010 2:57 PM PST up reply actions  

not that i'm in the pro-tanking camp, but...

a higher pick will obviously have higher trade value and give us more options.

by ReignMan on Feb 23, 2010 3:36 PM PST up reply actions  

And besides...

Plenty of others have said it, but to repeat, a higher draft pick means a larger hold on our cap space. I too want to cheer for my team this season, but moreover, I think we’re better off with a less-expensive, still-valuable lottery pick. What Dunleavy has done, then, is pretty crafty. He’s given us cap space, provided some resigning options, AND made us competitive enough to land in an optimal draft location.

by SilverClip on Feb 23, 2010 3:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Lower Draft Pick?

It’s not likely the Clips were going to get worse had they not made any moves so how much lower do you expect their draft pick to fall with these trades? I want them to win, too, but don’t see them passing more than one lottery team (NO, Houston, Memphis, Milwaukee) they aren’t already leading. Maybe this helps them hold off Eastern Conference teams they already lead (Philly, Detroit, Washington), but they should have been able to do that with the team they had.

by ClipCat on Feb 24, 2010 8:02 AM PST up reply actions  

A day later, I'm not sure how much I agree with myself!

But I know that I was thinking in terms of our TWO trades… If we make the AT trade w/o the Camby trade, as some have suggested, then we’d have no wing depth nor a backup pg, and we probably WOULD plummet. Since the AT trade was made to gain cap space, the higher pick could be seen as counterproductive.

True, though, we could always trade it.

by SilverClip on Feb 24, 2010 10:49 AM PST up reply actions  

We should NOT be discussing maximizing ping pong balls

Completely agree with your post and since the goal is obviously to land a top free agent the Clippers should

1) Win games to show the potential FA that the team is not awful
2) The Clippers are possibly going to trade the pick anyway to maximize cap space.

I want to watch winning basketball.

That being said, I get SP’s point WRT DJ. He’s not saying he wants DJ to play because it makes the team worse and therefore more ping pong balls (even though it probably does) but rather to get DJ reps so he can start to contribute in meaningful games next season. That’s a hard call for me, because I get that logic, but I also want to watch a team win. DJ had to be benched in the 4th quarter last night per usual because he can’t be counted on to make a free throw, and I would bet that going forward Gooden will start and DJ will spell Kaman.

by Michael White on Feb 23, 2010 8:12 AM PST up reply actions  

It's a complicated equation

Obviously we’d all like to see the team win games and find some measure of success. Chasing ping pong balls is an ironic quest, just a way to deal with frustration and futility. But a couple of wins against one poor team and one lower mid-level team shouldn’t change general expectations too much. The exciting thing is that the Clips have made changes and have some new, intriguing players on their roster. They were on the verge of gelling at times earlier in the season, very close to going on a significant run. If they can come together and start playing better, that would be great. We’d all be happy. And it’s going to be fun to see what happens with all of the new factors.

The tricky part, if this new group and coach are at all successful, will come in the offseason, as they have set things up to go after a star free agent. The Clips actually don’t even want too many ping pong balls or to go too high, because that might limit the amount that they could offer a free agent, unless I’m wrong.

At least the Clips are interesting right now. If they can rack up some wins, they’ll be even more intriguing.

When the Clips were 17-18 and heading into Memphis, the question besides the effort to get to .500 was how quickly they could get to 30 wins. The answer, as it turned out, was that they got to 30 losses in a hurry, Dunleavy stepped down, and Camby, Thornton, and Telfair were all shipped out. So now, with Kim Hughes and SBlake, Gooden, and Outlaw, there’s a similar question that might be raised: will the Clips get to 30 wins before they hit 40 losses? That’s what I’m wondering.

by citizen zhiv on Feb 23, 2010 9:05 AM PST up reply actions  

All fair points.

I raised a series of questions right after Dunleavy stepped down, which was… should our goals be different strictly because circumstances are different? I think we (and I include myself in this group) tend to stray from goals much too quickly: a solid win over a tough team and all of sudden expectations are ratcheted up to an unrealistic level (as happy as I was to see the team at one game below .500, I was not comfortable with a whole new set of expectations for the team.) Similarly, one or two losses to under-performing teams and we’re ready to write off the entire season! This is equally counter-productive IMHO.

Great companies set long term goals that are “aggressive yet acheivable.” They also tend to down play short term metrics because they often aren’t indicative of the underlying fundamentals of a situation. Layer on top of it the truism that “things are never as good or as bad as they seem” and it makes for a complex situation that doesn’t lend itself easily to simple solutions.

Zhiv is right that we shouldn’t ratchet up after two wins… But I would counter that we shouldn’t have ratcheted down in the first place. As for predictions, I predict (barring a major injury, which is the caveat that never grows old) that the Clips will get to 30 wins first.

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein

by Another son of Mike Smith on Feb 23, 2010 9:28 AM PST up reply actions  

Next 13

DET, @PHO, @SAC, UTA, PHO, OKC, @UTA, @ORL, @MIA, @CHA, @SAS, NOH, MIL

Enough winnable games and plenty of likely losses. What was probably an arbitrary question turns out to be very interesting per the schedule.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 23, 2010 9:34 AM PST up reply actions  

4-9?

By most “experts” predictions?

by moKi on Feb 23, 2010 9:36 AM PST up reply actions  

40 losses or 30 wins?

to get to 30-39 will be very difficult, given that the Clippers aren’t really playing for anything, and 11 of their 13 opponents are fighting for playoff position. I see only three games where I would expect them to be favored (DET, @SAC, MIL). Then you’ve got five teams (and seven games) that own the Clippers (SAS, PHO, UTA, NOH, ORL). So if the reverse mojo is worth anything, I’ll guarantee that the Clippers will lose 40 before they win 30.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Feb 23, 2010 9:48 AM PST up reply actions  

Reverse mojo in effect...

To be clear, I have no expectation they will rip off seven straight (even I’m not that optimistic). If it happens, it will likely be by a hair… 7-6 or 8-5 in the next 13? And I disagree that the Clips have nothing to play for… if nothing else, the majority of our players are in contract years.

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein

by Another son of Mike Smith on Feb 23, 2010 9:53 AM PST up reply actions  

And if Kim Hughes can motivate them and get them to play well . . .

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 9:58 AM PST up reply actions  

Maybe "motivate" is the wrong word

What I meant is that he would employ a system that would allow the players to maximize their talents and help them to achieve. Motivation in the sense of building confidence in the team in terms of their belief that they can win. The team has talent – they just need help maximizing that talent.

I wasn’t talking about Tony Robbins-style motivational speeches.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 10:05 AM PST up reply actions  

I certainly agree that the team needs help maximizing its talent...

… but to me the harder question has always been about to whom does that primary responsibility lie – the coach or the players themselves? Especially in these circumstances when it seems to be commonly accepted that Baron has been pushing for a different system for quite some time…

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein

by Another son of Mike Smith on Feb 23, 2010 10:16 AM PST up reply actions  

So you apparently think

that the players are primarily responsible.

I tend to think that both the coach and players are responsible. IMO you have to start with a workable effective system. That’s the coach’s responsibility.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 10:20 AM PST up reply actions  

That is not what I apparently think.

I believe it is a shared responsibility and anyone who tries to pin it exclusively on one side or the other is oversimplifying the situation because it is cleaner to discuss and assign blame.

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein

by Another son of Mike Smith on Feb 23, 2010 10:23 AM PST up reply actions  

You and I are in complete agreement

Where we might disagree is in the area of whether a good system needs to be put in place by the coach at the outset.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 10:27 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm not even sure we would disagree on that point.

I do believe a good system needs to be put in place by the coach at the outset. Where we diverge is A) whether Dunleavy succeeded in installing a “good system” and B) whether that is the only (or even the primary) prerequisite for a successful team. I can’t answer A) unless we can agree on what constitutes a “good system” and B) the answer is unquestionably no IMHO. There are probably ten major elements that must be in place for a successful team. A “good system” is just one of them.

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein

by Another son of Mike Smith on Feb 23, 2010 10:33 AM PST up reply actions  

I would say

That there are three: (1) talent; (2) coach; (3) GM – not necessarily in that order.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 10:35 AM PST up reply actions  

Talent = overwhelming #1

Check the history. Talent wins in basketball. Systems win in football.

BTW, I didn’t like Dunleavy’s “system” much. Very boring.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 10:38 AM PST up reply actions  

Yes, you need talent

And yes his system was boring and predictable.

Did you see that post from Gordon – intriguing.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 10:41 AM PST up reply actions  

Seems implausible

Within the past year, Jackson has made indirectly disparaging comments about both Sterling and MDSr… Hard to visualize him ignoring all of that and just coming for a paycheck. But I do think he could trying to use the Clips as leverage to get the deal he wants with the Lakers a la Kobe from a few years ago.

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein

by Another son of Mike Smith on Feb 23, 2010 11:16 AM PST up reply actions  

Agree re Phil but Darrell may be talking about someone else

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:19 AM PST up reply actions  

"nothing to play for"

That’s an overstatement to be sure… but there’s just such a big difference between playing for a team goal like the playoffs and… well, not. Playing for a contract is often cited as the downfall of teams, not the (opposite of downfall – up rise?)

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Feb 23, 2010 11:57 AM PST up reply actions  

So what's the simple solution?

I want a simple solution! I MUST HAVE a simple solution!

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Feb 23, 2010 9:35 AM PST up reply actions  

NO! YOU CAN'T HAVE A SIMPLE SOLUTION! I WON'T ALLOW IT!

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein

by Another son of Mike Smith on Feb 23, 2010 9:43 AM PST up reply actions  

Damn you ASOMS!

Damn you to HELL!

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Feb 23, 2010 9:44 AM PST up reply actions  

If I must be cursed by someone, it's always nice when it comes from the very top....

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein

by Another son of Mike Smith on Feb 23, 2010 9:56 AM PST up reply actions  

Whats the problem being solved?

We can even begin to set expectations until we know what the goals are.

What are the Clippers’ goals for 09-10?

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 23, 2010 9:44 AM PST up reply actions  

Goals . . .

The first was to change coaches – check.

The second should be to start playing better as team – jury still out.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 9:46 AM PST up reply actions  

So the Clippers goal going in to the season was to change coaches?

Who set this goal? Sterling?

That’s absurd.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 23, 2010 9:47 AM PST up reply actions  

Sorry - let me back up

The primary goal is to win.

IMO to accomplish that (assuming they have adequate talent, which I do), they need to: (1) change coaches; (2) change GMs; and (3) start acting like a real NBA team. Not necessarily in that order.

They have achieved the first – although they do not yet have a permanent new coach most likely. Not sure what’s going on with the second. The third – they are making progress with the practice facility, but little things like being the red headed step child at Staples are tough to overcome and can be deal killers when trying to attract first tier free agents.

At least they are finally doing something other than accepting sub .400 year after year.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 9:51 AM PST up reply actions  

BINGO

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 9:53 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

See my post below

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 9:54 AM PST up reply actions  

"change GMs"

uh, why? Because you hate irrationally him?

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 9:52 AM PST up reply actions  

Relax mikey

I don’t irrationally hate anyone. IMO he’s not well-respected around the league and I do not believe that top tier free agents will sign here as long as he’s here.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 9:54 AM PST up reply actions  

ok, relaxing...now, then...

Who says he is not well repected around the league (besides Bill Simmons)? He seems to be quite well respected. I can honestly say that there are not too many GM’s doing a better job right now. Most teams are making messes for the future. Setting the table nicely for the future.

Actually, I just convinced myself that he has been a brilliant GM.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 10:01 AM PST up reply actions  

Well, hopefully you're right and I'm wrong

I guess we’ll see. To me, the telltale sign of a poor GM is not being able to keep your key free agents or attract new ones.

EB comes to mind. Yes as it turned out losing him was helpful for us, but that wasn’t MDSr’s doing. I’ll never forget EB rolling his eyes a few years ago when we were talking about MDSr.

MDSr has been the GM of this team for the past seven years (defacto for 5 of them). The team has been sub .400 during his reign. ’nuff said.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 10:08 AM PST up reply actions  

I suppose you can’t refute the “scoreboard” argument. But still, you think the current GM has assembled enough talent to field a winning team. Really, that’s the job of the GM. The free agent issue is hard to pin to Dunleavy alone. Others have opined that Sterling is more the problem (all things being equal why play for a racist) and its hard to refute that point. Another point is that they are the Clippers, they have been losing for like ever so no free agent is too jacked up about joining this organization. Again, that problem long predates Dunleavy.

I have no problem getting rid of Dunleavy. I’m not as bullish on the talent he has assembled as you are, I think the trade deadline was handled the wrong way (John R was pretty convincing that the Clips could have gotten Jamison and Butler instead of just hoping and praying for Lebron) and just in general terms I don’t see how a former player is particularly qualified to be a GM. The job of a GM is very difficult and should be done by really smart dudes who are professional negotiators and “capologists” and the market value of this team is too high to just leave to a Dunleavy and that’s it.

by Michael White on Feb 23, 2010 10:13 AM PST up reply actions  

"The job of a GM is very difficult and should be done by really smart dudes who are pro. negotiators"

Dunleavy is qualified to work on Wall St. and has. So he is no Charles Barkley or Bill Walton.

by Takebb909 on Feb 23, 2010 11:23 AM PST via mobile up reply actions  

How did he do on Wall Street?

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:25 AM PST up reply actions  

And even so just working on Wall Street for a few years between NBA gigs doesn’t make him an expert negotiator. Do we even know the scope of his job?

by Michael White on Feb 23, 2010 11:27 AM PST up reply actions  

He got a rich, long contract from Sterling

Proving MDSr the greatest negotiator of all time.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 23, 2010 11:28 AM PST up reply actions  

That swindle

was his best move ever – granted

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:29 AM PST up reply actions  

LOL, swindle

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 11:31 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm just saying that the org needs more professionals in the F.O

For example, the Dodgers have like 10 different assistants to the GM. One head of amateur scouting, one head of international scouting, one woman who is basically in charge of salary arbitrations and negotiations, etc. Sure, you probably don’t need 10, but from what I understand the basketball division of the Clippers basically starts and ends with Dunleavy. That just seems foolish.

by Michael White on Feb 23, 2010 11:32 AM PST up reply actions  

There's no doubt that he's a savvy

outside of the box kind of thinker when it comes to deals though.

He negotiated his own contract way back when and even invented the eFG so that he could further prove his worth.

by Newton Pham on Feb 23, 2010 11:34 AM PST up reply actions  

So he says

As well as the internet

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:34 AM PST up reply actions  

That's a Sterling problem

You go to war with the owner you have.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 23, 2010 11:34 AM PST up reply actions  

Wall Street

Since I’m in the industry it was of interest to me and I looked into this and apparently he was head of marketing and training.

So he really didn’t get to do any “deals.”

by Newton Pham on Feb 23, 2010 11:33 AM PST up reply actions  

LOL

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:35 AM PST up reply actions  

That sounds about right

He was a big name former basketball player, it makes sense to higher him and allow him to do motivational speeches for new hires. It’s like engaging Bruce Jenner for your office picnic.

by Michael White on Feb 23, 2010 11:38 AM PST up reply actions  

Was he a big name?

Who would know? He looks nothing like a former NBA player.

They may as well just truck in some guy off the streets for $100 bucks to say he is a former player and to work hard.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 11:42 AM PST up reply actions  

Perhaps there is a reason...

why he didn’t want to max out for EB coming off of an injury. Like I said, brilliant.

Also, it is interesting that you dislike Dunleavy so much that you are willing to take the word of David Falk, widely considered to be low-life scumbag. And those are his admirers.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 10:19 AM PST up reply actions  

What are you talking about

Falk just exposed MDSr’s true role. Go read Elgin Baylor’s lawsuit. Exhibit A is MDSr’s contract which gave him defacto control as GM all those years (while maintaining the charade that Elgin was the GM). The Clippers and MDSr don’t deny it.

So if you want to talk racism (if that’s what it was, an argument can be made, just saying), MDSr was apparently complicit.

As for EB, MDSr clearly wanted him. How quickly we forget his press conference when he argued vociferously that he was just the coach and he had all these texts showing what a bad guy EB was for not signing here. AKA loser excuse arguments.

As for the talent he’s assembled – M White I agree that he’s assembled some good talent. However, when you actually look at what he’s done it’s not really so brilliant:

BG – number one pick. Consequence of poor management and coaching, no?

BD – the 5 year deal was far too long IMO.

Camby – good move, but not a free agent signing.

I agree that he has made some good moves. The problem IMO with him is that he cannot attract big name free agents unless he overpays for them.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 10:25 AM PST up reply actions  

Ok, lots of things...

MDSr complicit in racism? Whoaaa, stretch. I don’t know what EBSr. perceives happened to him, but he was able to hold onto a job for 23 years despite being quite lousy at it.

One could say that Elton Brand is the dishonest one for suckering Philly into gutting their roster to sign him even though he knew he was a shell of a player.

Apparently, Sterling is the one who wouldn’t meet with Brand and Falk, prompting them to seek offers elsewhere.

Free agent superstars rarely leave their teams anyway. Shaq always wanted to be a Laker, so it is hard to credit Jerry West with that (though he did scout Kobe rather well). Dunleavys perceived inability to get top shelf free agents is unfounded. Kobe, by all accounts, was ready to sign until every Laker legend put on a last minute full court press to keep him. Ray Allen stayed in Seattle (again, the norm). I hardly fault Dunleavy for the Clipper stink that has plagued this franchise since well before him.

Luck is ALWAYS involved. Spurs got Duncan, Bulls got Jordan, Cavs got LBJ, Clippers got Griffin.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 10:48 AM PST up reply actions  

I would respectfully suggest

that you just read the lawsuit and MDSr’s contract.

MDSr’s inability to attract free agents is unfounded? Who has he signed?

Agree on luck, but the Spurs got Duncan because the Admiral was hurt not because their coach sucked.

Reasonable minds can differ on this.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 10:51 AM PST up reply actions  

He signed Baron

no small feat really. Is Baron overpaid based on his production SINCE he’s signed the contract, well yes, look at the team’s record and certainly Baron isn’t playing as well as we need him to. But at the time it was a solid signing, Baron had actually opted out early of the last year of his deal (big money, I think it was like 17 million) and coming off his healthiest season in years.

But the truth is we never would have signed him if FElton hadn’t convinced management (and us) that he would take less money so they could sign him. In a way its as if 1-2 million per year Baron is paid is suppose to be coming from FElton… obviously that hasn’t worked out. Hindsight is 20/20, would we still want Baron if we were paying him 8 million a year, yea that would be a good price but obviously at 12-13 million its a bitter pill to swallow.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 23, 2010 11:04 AM PST up reply actions  

Good point

That was a pretty good signing at the time, and I’m not sure the GM didn’t prefer Baron over Elton at that point.

I would rather be paying Baron $13M than Elton $17M.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 11:10 AM PST up reply actions  

Right

and it was suppose to be a combo deal. I think both guys were going to get 12-13 million a year when you think about it is a pretty good deal for a pair of all-stars in their primes. At the time we also had a solid vet in Cat Mobley (not to mention our young rookie SG Eric Gordon who we knew little about), the high flying Sophomore Al Thornton and the newly released 2.0 edition of Chris Kaman. We thought Baron was the missing piece so we were willing to pay him even though we knew the latter portion of the deal would probably be bad for us but we stalled in the parking lot when FElton left us at the altar.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 23, 2010 11:32 AM PST up reply actions  

What I never understood

about that signing is that BD is anathema to MDSr’s system. Putting aside everything else.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:11 AM PST up reply actions  

Have you read Elgin's lawsuit?

A bunch of hype and loaded language. Not an actionable item in the entire thing, and that’s taking it at face value.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Feb 23, 2010 12:04 PM PST up reply actions  

I'll pass

Thanks for doing the leg work

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 12:09 PM PST up reply actions  

I think you may be missing the key points:

1. The complaint may contain loaded language, but that has little to do with the merit of the actual claims alleged.

What is your basis for asserting that none of the claims alleged have any merit? Are you a witness?

2. I’m not talking about the merits of the claims alleged but rather the underlying facts, which include the fact that MDSr was the defacto GM for the past seven years while engaging in a charade with the fans and the league apparently over who was acting as GM – that’s why Falk exposed the ruse in response to MDSr defending himself to us by saying “I’m just the coach, I’m just the coach.”

As the Baylor lawsuit points out, MDSr’s contract gives him that power. Baylor was just a propped – up figurehead. Yes he might have pathetically agreed to that figurehead role, but it doesn’t exonerate MDSr and DTS for their roles.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 12:14 PM PST up reply actions  

If your post is a just summary of the complaint

the complaint is weak indeed.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 12:23 PM PST up reply actions  

No, it's not a summary of the complaint

It’s a summary of some of the facts alleged in the complaint.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 12:25 PM PST up reply actions  

Uncompelling

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 12:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Well ok then

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 1:22 PM PST up reply actions  

I hate the lottery system

The NBA’s version of welfare. I would prefer if all teams had the same # of balls with the same odds. I realize that will never happen, but at the very least, the non-playoff teams should all have the same odds. That way, you wouldn’t see teams tanking games, and the perpetual losers wouldn’t continually pick in the Top 4, thereby being rewarded for futility.

(Or just get rid of the draft and let players sign where the wish, seeking the combination of most $$ + playing time that suits them. The free market approach).

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 9:32 AM PST up reply actions  

That wouldn't work either

As the lowest seeded playoffs teams would tank too. Would you rather barely make the playoffs and end your season getting swept in the 1st round or enter into the John Wall lottery? In fact tanking would be even more obvious for some as the rookie scale contracts would be very attractive to the cheaper owners…

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 23, 2010 11:09 AM PST up reply actions  

We have enough "AC Milans, Barcelonas, Juventus and Manchester Uniteds"

Were the wealthiest own everything. Its hard enough having the Yankees in the united States. But lots of of people love those monopolies (Juventus myself). However with all that said, I don’t think too many people in the fashion of Clipper fans would like that system.

by Takebb909 on Feb 23, 2010 12:46 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Zhiv - the Bobcats are better than you think

I was going to post below that this would be the fourth point that Steve could have raised – they beat a pretty good team.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 9:45 AM PST up reply actions  

Maybe

Maybe not.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 23, 2010 9:46 AM PST up reply actions  

Good to see that you're now a Hollinger fan

The Bobcats have certainly improved significantly and as I said are a pretty good team now with an ok coach.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 9:57 AM PST up reply actions  

Ok coach?

Larry Brown is one of the best ever.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 23, 2010 11:10 AM PST up reply actions  

I know - I was being snarky

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:12 AM PST up reply actions  

Arnovitz and Foster over at Clipperblog think the Bobcats are pretty good

Foster: “[it] was a junkyard battle, and the fact that the Clippers out-nastied one of the nastiest teams in the league is impressive.”

I agree. Why are you slighting your team?

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 10:11 AM PST up reply actions  

Charlotte has a horrible road record and frankly I think the Clippers are quite a solid team at home such that no mediocre team from the east should beat the Clips at Staples. According to their record, that’s precisely what Charlotte is, a mediocre team from the East. I’m happy with the win, I think Charlotte is okay, and I think the Clippers are actually a pretty tough “out” at home.

by Michael White on Feb 23, 2010 10:15 AM PST up reply actions  

Charlotte is pretty good

I just didn’t want to overstate things, and went with the understatement.

Yes, they’re not a good road team. Part of the theory is that on any given night, the Clippers can be much better than the common fan might think. They have a new coach and new players and things might gel, who knows. But as far as Charlotte is concerned, there’s all sorts of things that I like about them.

I like Larry Brown, although I don’t study him closely enough, as I might have in the old days when he was a Bruin and Clipper guy and hanging out in the South Bay, and he has put on a lot of miles since then. GWallace was truly awesome last night. Diaw is great and fun, and the Clips managed to neutralize him pretty nicely. BDavis and the Clippers put a world class funk on SJackson last night, but that just means he’ll go out and destroy some other team. He was doing BD a solid, letting him get right up into his grill and his head both. I knew that one of the Cat Bigs (Big Cats) would play out of his mind, and I was surprised and happy to see that it was Ratliff, who, let’s be honest, is only going to hurt you so much. And it was awesome and sweet to see DJordan dunk over him, rather than have him block 5 or 6 straight shots by Kaman, as he has in the past. Felton and Augustin were question marks for me, and I was also struck by the note that Milph discussed, how the Bobcats could have drafted Brook Lopez instead of Augustin. Yikes, as Ralph would say.

by citizen zhiv on Feb 23, 2010 10:46 AM PST up reply actions  

Augustin and Lopez

That was (and still is to some degree) a very controversial draft pick in Charlotte. I and many others were disappointed that the Bobcats didn’t pick Lopez, but I wasn’t especially disappointed by Augustin either.

Augustin fit more of a need at the time since the Bobcats really only had Ray Felton at PG without a real backup. And Augustin’s perimeter shooting was badly needed in Charlotte.

Still, Lopez did seem to be the best player available, a solid frontcourt prospect for a team that really had only one good frontcourt player in Emeka Okafor. Charlotte had just traded for Nazr Mohammed (and his long, expensive contract) that season. Nazr was supposed to play center with Okafor at PF. But Okafor really struggled trying to defend some of the quicker PF’s, and he and Nazr clogged up the lanes on offense, which also hurt Gerald Wallace and really bogged down the half court offense. So Charlotte was understandably apprehensive about drafting another player that didn’t fit with Okafor.

So DJ wasn’t a bad draft choice, but unfortunately Charlotte didn’t stick to one strategy. The next season they gave up on Nazr and traded for Diop, an even longer and worse contract. Then they had so much money tied up in centers nobody else wanted that they decided to ship out Okafor for Chandler. And now as SP noted yesterday, they have 35 feet of near useless centers on the team.

by ClipCat on Feb 23, 2010 12:38 PM PST up reply actions  

My comment, in fact, said nothing

It merely relayed another blog post I saw on the internet today concerning the subject.

A larger comment might be that all teams that saw significant roster change will now need to be reevaluated from scratch. What they might have been before, they may not be anymore.

Same with the Clippers.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 23, 2010 10:29 AM PST up reply actions  

Ok - so do you think that a win over the Bobcats, albeit at home, was a quality win or not?

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 10:31 AM PST up reply actions  

What's a quality win?

I mean, they beat the Lakers and Celtics before the roster changes. They lost to the Nets before.

They beat the Bobcats after. I don’t know that there is anything particularly special about the Bobcats either way. Middle of the road team in the East. Probably miss the playoffs in the West.

Its a win and as someone watching the game a win is preferable to a loss. I don’t know that it has any special adjective associated with it.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 23, 2010 10:35 AM PST up reply actions  

This is pointless

Apparently you are unwilling to give Hughes and the team any credit for beating an up and coming team. Did you even see the game?

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 10:36 AM PST up reply actions  

I did

Its a win. Why are you so concerned with making it something its not?

Why have you burst back on to the scene today? Ready to come out of the woodwork after how embarrasingly bad the coaching change alone worked?

Its a rhetorical line of questioning, of course.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 23, 2010 10:38 AM PST up reply actions  

LOL

Sorry for not posting more, I was on vacation.

It will take some time before seeing the full benefit of the coaching change.

Relax, young padewan.

At least we can see where you’re coming from now.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 10:43 AM PST up reply actions  

I was wondering if you got banned for something…

I don’t think SP brings down the ban too often though.

by Michael White on Feb 23, 2010 11:16 AM PST up reply actions  

He loves me - he just won't say that publicly

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:19 AM PST up reply actions  

I love you, too

plus you are good for business

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 11:21 AM PST up reply actions  

And I you

SP should be sending me royalty checks

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:22 AM PST up reply actions  

BTW - Snowbird is phenomenal

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:23 AM PST up reply actions  

Most of the haters were conspicuously absent

last week when Dunleavy pulled off some pretty solid moves.

Didn’t fit their template.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 10:51 AM PST up reply actions  

There are many good. rational, reasonable reasons

to be critical of MDSr. That doesn’t make those who are critical of him “haters.” Perhaps we are just tired of sub .400 over seven years . . .

Regarding the moves you mentioned, do you really think we are going to get LBJ? If not, then wouldn’t it have been better to trade away Camby for example for something more long term (assuming that was possible)?

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 10:54 AM PST up reply actions  

No, I don't not think the Clippers will get LBJ

He will likely stay in Cleveland (as most free agents do). But it is worth a shot. Only six teams are in the running. The Clippers are one of them.

I do think these moves give the Clippers a lot of flexibility to assemble a quality roster around the talent that is here. The future of this team is already on the roster.

I don’t think trading Camby for a 34 year old Jamison owed lots of money would have been a good move, and I imagine you would have been among the most vocal against such a move.

If you look at what Dunleavy did to clear things up, it was pretty masterful. Even Kevin Arnovitz, whom you are quite fond of quoting, tends to agree.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 11:00 AM PST up reply actions  

What exactly did he do?

He traded away Camby – a valuable asset – for two players who are free agents next year.

He traded away Telfair, who was on contract next year, and Thornton, for Gooden. Thornton in particular is an interesting move. One could argue that a good coach might have been able to develop him. MDSr was quite high on Al just a couple of years ago.

So we’ve got alot of cap space. I guess that I am more skeptical than you are in his ability to sign talent. Hopefully I’m wrong.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:04 AM PST up reply actions  

Cap space is the most valuable asset this summer

He got lots.

I agree that he did a poor job developing AT, who I think will perform better elsewhere. But it is what it is. The good GM move was to trade him. He didn’t fit here.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 11:13 AM PST up reply actions  

Cap space

Camby – we would have had that regardless of trading him – the point is whether we could have gotten something more than we got. I say probably.

Thornton / Telfair – How much cap space did we get for dumping these two? Is that really going to make a difference in signing someone like LBJ? What are the chances that we are going to land LBJ? Is it worth dumping Thornton when he seems to have some talent and could be developed here at a fairly reasonably price?

Sorry, mikey, but I don’t see how you can characterize MDSr’s move in that regard as “masterful” (unless he lands LBJ).

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:16 AM PST up reply actions  

So it's LBJ or bust?

There are a ton of good free agents out there. Obviously LeBron will be target #1, but the GM has given himself a lot of flexibility. He inserted himself into the Cleveland/Washington deal at the last second to unload Telfair.

Now, if he blows it this offseason and signs a bunch of crap, then it will be a failure. But up to now he managed to make the Clippers possibly the best combinaiton of cap space AND talent.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 11:24 AM PST up reply actions  

We had the same flexibility before the trades, no?

What were we paying Telfair – $2 M?

Camby / Outlaw / Blake – wash

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:26 AM PST up reply actions  

Not exactly. Thornton and Telfair were under contract for next season…

by Michael White on Feb 23, 2010 11:28 AM PST up reply actions  

Good buyers market this year

Not too many teams are going to be spending money. We can get a better player than Telfair for 2.7 million and can find comparable talent for Thornton’s 2.8 million.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 23, 2010 11:35 AM PST up reply actions  

Got it

Telfair is overpaid at $2.7 but that’s not a huge amount of cash given the cap.

Thornton – is his potential worth $2.8 M? To me it is.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:37 AM PST up reply actions  

So you want to watch him for one more year

Then have to make a choice to pay him as a RFA when he is going to be 28?

That’s quite the plan you have there.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 23, 2010 11:40 AM PST up reply actions  

I want to see what he can do

under a good system with a coach who could develop him.

If he develops we would want to be in a position to sign him.

If he doesn’t, let him go.

It ain’t rocket science my man.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:43 AM PST up reply actions  

LOL

So you would pass on the chance to sign a big FA out of a pollyannish hope that Al Thornton will be the first player in NBA history to make a leap after his 27th birthday.

If that’s your position, so be it.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 23, 2010 11:46 AM PST up reply actions  

Not sure

I’m not the GM. If I were I’d try to determine the realistic chance of signing that free agent. If it’s 1.5%, I’d pass. If it’s 20%, I’d go for it.

Which is it?

Frankly, I have litle faith in our current GM’s ability to accurately evaluate his own ability to sign free agents so I’d probably err on the side of caution and keep Thornton and his $2.8 M salary.

Re Thornton – he’s regressed. He doesn’t need to make a leap. He just needs to find his way back home.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:49 AM PST up reply actions  

You got to be kidding

You are talking about a run of the mill SF versus a statistically relevant chance at one of the greatest players of all time entering his prime? It’s like being afraid to ask the girl of your dream out because you might get rejected and then spend the rest of your miserable existence alone in your studio apartment in Las Vegas.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 23, 2010 12:42 PM PST up reply actions  

LOL love that analogy

she said “no” if you’re wondering

by big0lbad on Feb 23, 2010 1:11 PM PST up reply actions  

It's the flip side

of all you who are afraid to change coaches because things could be worse than sub .400.

Where we may disagree is on whether the chance is statistically relevant.

But I understand your point and if I thought it was possible I would go for it too. I don’t think it’s “brilliant” however.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 1:24 PM PST up reply actions  

Speaking for myself

I was not afraid of a coaching change, and, in fact, welcomed it.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 2:20 PM PST up reply actions  

The Camby trade was at best just a lateral move

If we end up do resigning one of them then maybe it becomes a win for us. Will have to wait and see.

The Telfair and Thornton deal was excellent for us. Telfair is a limited player and Thornton is what he is, thinking he’s going to evolve much further than where he already is is a fool’s errand.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 23, 2010 11:15 AM PST up reply actions  

Don't you guys think we could have gotten more?

A draft pick? Something?

Maybe Michael White was right all along ;-)

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:17 AM PST up reply actions  

Draft pick would have been nice

Perhaps he should have pushed for it. I don’t know.

I like the moves.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 11:26 AM PST up reply actions  

We should have gotten more

we might have waited too long to trade him though. The Blazers obviously needed him, we should have gotten one of their Euros they have stashed away. Aside from them the other playoffs teams could use Camby (realistically every team could use a Marcus Camby) but it wasn’t a necessity.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 23, 2010 11:38 AM PST up reply actions  

Doubt it

He’s already making comments to the press about wanting to resign with the Blazers. We actually don’t really need him with DJ, BG and Kaman taking up much of the playing time. I think we could have gotten more than some expiring deals though. Blake and Outlaw have looked solid though but its still unlikely we resign even one of them.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 23, 2010 11:37 AM PST up reply actions  

Exactly

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:37 AM PST up reply actions  

I disagree with you re Thornton

The jury’s still out on him IMO

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:18 AM PST up reply actions  

Not with us

He had 2.5 years to impress us. He did well his rookie year and never got better. He’s a bad player but neither is he really a impact player.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 23, 2010 12:30 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't see how you can say one deal was excellent and the other was lateral

They were two coordinated deals. We swapped PFs and then PGs/SFs. It just happened to be spread across two teams rather than one.

Would you have rather we swapped Telfair/Thornton and not gotten Blake/Outlaw? Who would you have had play SF and PG? Or had you written the season off and are looking to tank? Nothing wrong with that as a strategy… just not one that I agree with… see above…

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein

by Another son of Mike Smith on Feb 23, 2010 11:20 AM PST up reply actions  

I get that but I just don't understand how this is a win

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:21 AM PST up reply actions  

CAP SPACE!!!

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 11:26 AM PST up reply actions  

We already had cap space

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:26 AM PST up reply actions  

more

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 11:27 AM PST up reply actions  

How much more

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:27 AM PST up reply actions  

How much more

Enough to offer a max.

by Newton Pham on Feb 23, 2010 11:28 AM PST up reply actions  

LOL

I’d correct you but you probably never will get this stuff so its not worth the time.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 23, 2010 11:27 AM PST up reply actions  

roger that! Cap Space.

Without trading Telfair/Thornton Clips cannot offer a max contract.

Lebron wants a max.

by Newton Pham on Feb 23, 2010 11:27 AM PST up reply actions  

Right, so it comes down to

A very slight chance at signing LBJ v. keeping and trying to develop Thornton.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:28 AM PST up reply actions  

Pretty much

The goal is a max player. AT fell out of favor in LA. I think he needs a change of scenery anyway. He’s doing well.

by Newton Pham on Feb 23, 2010 11:29 AM PST up reply actions  

But wouldn't he have had

a change of scenery here with a new coach?

I don’t know – I guess I understand the move to try to free up so much cap space, but with the apparently incredibly miniscule chance of sighing the King, what’s the point?

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:33 AM PST up reply actions  

I think signing James is unlikely

but not miniscule. If the Cavs flame out in the playoffs, he could bail. New York, Miami, LA…all good spots. Clips have some talent here.

It’s not completely out of the question like it is for, say, Sacramento.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 11:38 AM PST up reply actions  

What is your estimate of the percentage chance?

5%? If so, was the trade of Thornton worth it?

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:42 AM PST up reply actions  

Well

at least you are over Stuckey.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 11:46 AM PST up reply actions  

No I'm not

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:47 AM PST up reply actions  

No, just realistically evaluating our GM

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:50 AM PST up reply actions  

5% would be worth it

Players like Thornton are a dime a dozen, heck we just acquired one in Outlaw who is better and younger than Thornton. I gladly give up maybes like Thornton for even a longshot chance at a Lebron

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 23, 2010 12:33 PM PST up reply actions  

Ok then - WE ARE ALL IN ON LBJ

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 12:34 PM PST up reply actions  

As fans,

that is the best gift he could have given us.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 12:45 PM PST up reply actions  

5%?

yes, yes, yes, it’s worth it.

It’s worth it at 1%. Great players win rings. Al Thornton was very promising as a rookie, but has not improved, and developing him has a high end of first round exit. It makes much more sense to take the chance.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Feb 23, 2010 12:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Agreed that if we can get him . . .

Maybe I’m too skeptical

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 12:16 PM PST up reply actions  

Indeed you are

We have a solid core, great market, nice practice facility. It’s not a great chance but LBJ equals multiple championships, Thornton was probably a goner after next year anyways or we’d end up overpaying him to keep him.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 23, 2010 12:34 PM PST up reply actions  

Thus speaketh Steve

It is worth it

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 12:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes

I think 30 out of 30 GMs would do the same

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 11:33 AM PST up reply actions  

Oh come on

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:33 AM PST up reply actions  

29 out of 30

There’s always that one guy.

I think it’s something you have to go for. Risk / reward is worth it. Monsterous risk, but man will the reward be good.

by Newton Pham on Feb 23, 2010 11:35 AM PST up reply actions  

What's the risk in this scenario?

Keeping Thornton on the unlikely chance be “develops” into something he will never be, only to have the choice to overpay to keep him as a 29 year old with “upside” coming up VERY soon or lose him for nothing then anyway?

I don’t call that monsterous risk.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 23, 2010 11:38 AM PST up reply actions  

That's not what I said

And you’re making a number of assumptions

First, MDSr is a poor developer of talent. Another coach could develop Thornton. We shall see. I agree that it’s unlikely under MDSr. Perhaps he didn’t want him around so the next coach would show him up.

Second, I’m not saying the risk is “monsterous” [sic]. I’m just wondering why others think that the trades were “brilliant.”

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:40 AM PST up reply actions  

And I wasn't replying to you

But you are oh so important aren’t you. Mosterous risk is a quote fron Newtybar.

But you need to get over the idea that talent develops. It isn’t true. Players get better as they get older, but Al has probably already passed that age. Al Thornton at his age came into the league almost everything he is going to be.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 23, 2010 11:43 AM PST up reply actions  

Glad you agree with Hollinger and I

that MDSR’s choice of Thornton was not a good choice.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:45 AM PST up reply actions  

It was a fine choice

Or do you still want Stuckey in that position? How bout those Pistons with Stuckey starting?

At any rate, in this thread you have now said both that you WANT Thornton here and that you DON’T WANT Thornton here.

I mean, I’ve always known you discuss from a position of dishonesty, but its never been so straightforward. Your exile has left you rusty.

Best crawl back under that rock.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 23, 2010 11:49 AM PST up reply actions  

I think you've misread my posts

I have said that I don’t understand the trade of Thornton given the small salary next year, the potential that he could be developed and the miniscule chance of signing LBJ.

Your silly attempts to denigrate only make you look petty and foolish. Which is precisely what you are.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:52 AM PST up reply actions  

What's the basis for MDSr being a poor developer in talent

Chris Kaman has turned out nicely I think. So has Eric Gordon. He technically developed Jermaine O’Neal in his younger years.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 23, 2010 12:36 PM PST up reply actions  

EB had the best year of his career

under Dunleavy. I credit Cassell for EB’s year, too.

Sometimes guys like Livingston are just busts. It happens.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 12:47 PM PST up reply actions  

Livingston

wasn’t a bust, he unfortunately suffered a freak injury though. He was on his way to becoming a pretty solid player at 21 so who knows what his ceiling was if he continued to improve and stayed healthy. 12 pts, 6 ast, 4 rebounds per 36/min is pretty solid for a 21 year old pg.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 24, 2010 5:47 AM PST up reply actions  

I don't think he would have been that great

He wasn’t strong enough IMO for defense

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 24, 2010 10:07 AM PST up reply actions  

Always injured

He had NBA talent in an un-NBA body.

So in that regard he was a bust.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 24, 2010 10:45 AM PST up reply actions  

Ok, wait...

“Perhaps he didn’t want him around so the next coach would show him up.”

Pretty diabolical for such an idiot.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 11:45 AM PST up reply actions  

I didn't say he was an idiot

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:46 AM PST up reply actions  

Which moves?

Camby? I would disagree.

Thornton / Telfair – given our inability to sign free agents and the unlikelihood of bringing the big names here, I doubt most GMs if GM of the Clips would have done that deal.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:38 AM PST up reply actions  

Look if he signs LBJ

I’ll be the first to make out with the guy.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:41 AM PST up reply actions  

Who

Dunleavy or LBJ?

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 11:47 AM PST up reply actions  

Both at the same time

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:52 AM PST up reply actions  

by the way

If the Clippers had just done what I had suggested years ago and dumped MDSr then we really wouldn’t be going through this angst now.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:53 AM PST up reply actions  

I think you are the only one experiencing angst

Angst?

Should we get you The Breakfast Club on Blu-Ray for your birthday?

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 23, 2010 11:56 AM PST up reply actions  

Sure - I'll take it

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:57 AM PST up reply actions  

LOL

80’s teen angst.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 11:58 AM PST up reply actions  

How do you know?

It could have been much worse.

Jax, I’m afraid you are late to the “Clippers are poorly run” party. We all went thru it with the previous regime. Dunleavy has been a breath of fresh air for most Clipper fans who were around before 2005.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 11:57 AM PST up reply actions  

Why is sub .400 over 7 years a breath of fresh air?

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:58 AM PST up reply actions  

LOL

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 11:53 AM PST up reply actions  

Sadly .400 is pretty good for us

All-time winning percentage is .362 and that includes the much more successful Buffalo Braves era.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 23, 2010 12:38 PM PST up reply actions  

.400 is Ted Williams territory

I’ll take Teddy Ballgams numbers any day.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 12:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Ah

DTS is confusing basketball with baseball. That explains everything.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 1:27 PM PST up reply actions  

best defesne

They played some of the best defense I’ve seen a team play against us. They were EVERYWHERE and played hard-as-hell! It was a little intimidating from the couch. The Clips did good in the face of the beast.

by Takebb909 on Feb 23, 2010 12:50 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Think Lebron

Lets send out them postive waves

by Buddahfan on Feb 23, 2010 9:14 AM PST up reply actions  

If they want to develop DJ

He needs to either earn his playing time or they should send him to the D League

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 9:44 AM PST up reply actions  

And...

DJ should probably get his mins at C, not PF

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 9:49 AM PST up reply actions  

An interesting thought...

But I’m not sure the D-League is what he needs. DJ tore up summer league and even pre-season. His problem is adjusting to NBA game speed. The best way to do that is by playing in the NBA. I think it was a mistake not sending him to the D-League last year. But at this point, I think he is better off with the big team.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Feb 23, 2010 9:50 AM PST up reply actions  

You may be right

Tough call. I personally don’t think that we should tank the season to develop a player. Not saying that this would happen with him. Maybe he’s getting enough time in practice.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 9:56 AM PST up reply actions  

Great points - read this after I posted similar thoughts above

Love to reach .500 (does my bet still count if under a different coach)?

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 9:43 AM PST up reply actions  

just caught the replay, very nice win

Except for that real rough stretch in the second half that looked like a bad pickup game (no blood no foul) and that the ball was coated with margarine, it was a nice free flowing win with everyone contributing. Kudos to hughes for working everyone in without causing too many disruptions in rhythm. Didn’t seem like any group stunk it up, and that any player was left out there too long or was unnecessarily left on the bench. Our basketball IQ and hustle quotient definitely both increased with the trade and it showed in the rally tonight. The turnovers are still painful (I swear, if I were opposing coach, I would let gordon and kaman catch the ball everytime down and throw a hard double constantly…those two CANNOT pass on the fly under duress), but really, considering there was a very good chance that these guys would be mailing in the last couple of months and going through the motions would be the norm, I don’t think any of us can complain much.

by Joe Wolf's Mullet on Feb 23, 2010 8:00 AM PST via mobile reply actions  

Screw JJ and Rudy Gay

if these are the guys we realistically have a chance at, I say to hell with them and bring back this crew. These guys are ballers.

by big0lbad on Feb 23, 2010 8:24 AM PST reply actions  

second that

though a bit premature. Lets see how this squad finishes.

by dulciusEXasperis on Feb 23, 2010 9:17 AM PST up reply actions  

I was thinking the same thing during the 1st half last night

I’d be very happy to see that squad + Blake take the floor next year, rather than Kaman, Blake, Baron, Gordon, Johnson and absolutely zero bench. The team I saw out there was a playoff team. Other than the King, there’s no FA out there that makes us a playoff team with nothing but 2nd-round picks and veteran minimum guys on the 2nd unit.

by boltsfan21 on Feb 23, 2010 9:47 AM PST up reply actions  

Wow

You guys see a win and all of a sudden your sold. We’re a decent home team, we play well against the Eastern Conference teams (.500 record this year) and the Bobcats are not a good team. I don’t think we need to sign a max player unless his name is either Lebron or Dwyane but a couple of good solid vets make a lot of sense. Can Outlaw, Blake and Gooden be those guys? Possible but its far too early to determine.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 23, 2010 11:18 AM PST up reply actions  

I did say it was a bit premature

but I haven’t thought we could land James since the get go. Even if he does leave the Cavs we’re competing against what, 4-5 other teams looking to bring him in?

by dulciusEXasperis on Feb 23, 2010 2:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Great Blake! He made his free throw!!

Heart warming to see him exorcise that demon. And some great razzing by BD afterwards!

BTW, if first impressions matter, Gooden looks good. Maybe he’s been a bonehead in younger years, but now he knows what he’s doing. I’m not sure why others are so confident that he’s only a rental. What makes him less likely to resign than anyone else?

by SilverClip on Feb 23, 2010 9:05 AM PST reply actions  

Check me if I'm wrong...

I could dig through the FA, but don’t feel like doing so right now… John R or Lawler4ever can hopefully pick up the slack for me here, right or wrong…

but since Gooden signed a one year deal with Dallas, I don’t think the Clippers even have his Bird rights. I tend to agree with his self-assessment in his Saturday press conference – he’s much better than the ‘9 teams in 8 seasons’ sound bite would indicate. He was the starting PF for the Eastern conference champs three seasons ago, and he’s still in his prime. He signed a one year deal for $4M last year – I think he can get $3M this summer. And I think a lot of teams will be interested. So the Clippers don’t necessarily have any advantage in pursuing him, other than familiarity, which may or may not end up being an advantage.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Feb 23, 2010 9:39 AM PST up reply actions  

FAQ... not FA

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Feb 23, 2010 9:51 AM PST up reply actions  

Next Season's Team

Lebron – Yes their will be enough cap space for him to sign with the Clippers
Davis
Kaman
Gordon
Griffin – Yes Blake will start ahead of Jordan,

Bench – If they can keep them all

Blake
Outlaw
Butler
Jordan
Smith

Plus most likely one lottery pick. How sweet it would be if it were John Wall

Here’s hoping

by Buddahfan on Feb 23, 2010 9:12 AM PST reply actions  

hahahaha

you smoking too much “buddah” there buddy

by bacek on Feb 23, 2010 9:15 AM PST up reply actions  

Why Wouldn't Lebron Want To Play For The Clippers

Okay John Wall is a long shot.

But all the rest of team except for Lebron is here already.

If Los Angeles is good enough for Kobe it sure should be good enough for Lebron.

Thank positive

by Buddahfan on Feb 23, 2010 10:22 AM PST up reply actions  

Not really possible

SBlake, Outlaw, Butler and Smith would all have to sign for the veteran’s minimum in order for that to happen. And that’s not going to happen.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Feb 23, 2010 9:41 AM PST up reply actions  

How much are they worth?

I agree on Blake, but the others?

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 9:59 AM PST up reply actions  

Sorry - I read minimum but thought mid level - I agree with you

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 10:00 AM PST up reply actions  

I doubt any wll get the MLE

but if you add LeBron, essentially every other roster spot has to go to a min player

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Feb 23, 2010 12:15 PM PST up reply actions  

Which is one reason why the Clippers make sense for him

Of the teams with space, the Clippers and Bulls have the most complete rosters.

New York or Miami will be LeBron + another star and a skeleton crew.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 23, 2010 12:22 PM PST up reply actions  

but we'll also have no one coming off the bench

Though that’s solved by playing the starting five 48 minutes….

by dulciusEXasperis on Feb 23, 2010 2:05 PM PST up reply actions  

Steve, a request for a future article: Why are we so fixated on the choice of top level FA vs re-signing our players?

Aren’t we overlooking one other scenario, which is trading for a substantial player (a la ZBo)? With all of the cap space we have, we generally don’t have to send anyone out. The only real difference is that you’re limited to teams that want to dump good players for largely financial reasons.

When Dunleavy stepped down, he said in an ESPN interview that he would much rather trade for a good player than hope you can sign one as a FA, as it takes all of the unpredictability out of the equation. My hypothesis is that if we don’t get LBJ, we’ll be looking to get that solid small forward through a trade/salary dump.

So which great small forwards play for teams that are either cash strapped, over the cap or looking to start over?

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein

by Another son of Mike Smith on Feb 23, 2010 10:12 AM PST up reply actions  

Great?

None that I can think of.

Good?

Iguadala
Wallace (cost too much in a trade IMO)
Possibly Deng.

But they are pretty expensive….

by Michael White on Feb 23, 2010 10:17 AM PST up reply actions  

Are they any more expensive than what it's going to cost to sign Rudy Gay or Joe Johnson?

Don’t know their situations, so it’s an open question… also, if Prince came back healthy, I still think he would bring tremendous value to our team.

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein

by Another son of Mike Smith on Feb 23, 2010 10:19 AM PST up reply actions  

No I don’t believe they are. That being said, they will cost an asset in a trade (like a draft pick at a minimum) whilst Joe Johsnon and Gay can be had for “just” money.

I would do it for Wallace, but our resident Bobcat expert has made it clear that Wallace won’t come without a significant peice (Gordon) going to Charlotte.

by Michael White on Feb 23, 2010 10:21 AM PST up reply actions  

While I generally like to hold onto draft picks, it sounds like there would be some value to including that so we don’t have to deal with a cap hold. Again, it all comes down to the player in question, but I do believe there are legit scenarios out there that we don’t tend to include in these conversations about next season, FA, re-signing our current players, etc.

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein

by Another son of Mike Smith on Feb 23, 2010 10:26 AM PST up reply actions  

Agree

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 23, 2010 10:29 AM PST up reply actions  

Tayshaun Prince

The best trade would be for Prince who only has 1 year left on his deal next year.

I think we should angle towards clearing cap for Deron/CP3.

by DariusN on Feb 23, 2010 10:30 AM PST up reply actions  

Resigning

I believe you can resign your own players regardless of where you are in the cap.,

The key is to sign Lebron first and then resign your own players.

by Buddahfan on Feb 23, 2010 10:24 AM PST up reply actions  

Problem is

that in order to have the cap space to sign Lebron you have to renounce your free agents. By renouncing them, you forfeit the ability to sign them regardless of where you are in the cap.

You can’t have both.

by Michael White on Feb 23, 2010 10:25 AM PST up reply actions  

But when do you renounce them?

I believe you can renounce them anytime you want… so we can try for LBJ and only renounce our guys if plan A-D fail.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 23, 2010 11:20 AM PST up reply actions  

This

Free agents become free on 7/1, but they stay on your books until you renounce them or they sign with someone else.

So it can all be one action like FA agrees to deal and Clippers renounce appropriate rights.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Feb 23, 2010 11:23 AM PST up reply actions  

Just read Buddahfan's comment

Yes, Monsieur White is correct, if we were to sign Lebron we’d have to renounce all our expiring contracts (Butler, Gooden, Blake, Outlaw, Smith, Collins, Novak, Butler, Bobby Brown and Skinner). Probably have to renounce Ricky Davis, Mark Madsen and Kareem Rush as well.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 23, 2010 11:23 AM PST up reply actions  

Professionals

The bench is stronger now. Blake is a huge upgrade from Telfair. And, it helps that Blake, Gooden, and Outlaw are playing hard to earn new contracts for next year. I agree with Michael White that the Clips may want to trade their #1 draft choice just to have more cap space. In looking at the draft, I see only John Wall and Evan Turner as players who could step in and help the Clips from day one. Then, the Clips would have a pretty good three guard rotation with Gordon, Baron, and the new guy.

by Mike Wr on Feb 23, 2010 9:15 AM PST reply actions  

Concerning the long and surprisingly diplomtic "right column" discussion above

The Camby and AT trades, IMO, go together and are about considerably more than cap space.

Lebron is the obvious Plan A, but that’s not all that the trades are about. More essentially, they bring us offseason flexibility, important in an ever-shifting environment, which is further enhanced by our current competiveness (better team image + less expensive, still valuable lottery pick).

If we do the AT trade w/o the Camby trade, then our bench is a lopsided disaster without a viable backup point guard. Then the season is really tanked, which I have to think would hurt our chances in free agency. It’s hard to place a value on team image, but I’d venture that it’s not negligible. Besides, we have free agents w/ or w/o these trades whom we may want to resign… Losing less makes a team feel more like home.

If we do the Camby trade w/o the AT trade, then that’s even worse. Again, we’d have a lopsided bench, and no improvement in terms of cap space. But I’d also put it in terms of flexibility: Right now, we can go after Lebron, we can resign our good talent, or we can sign and trade a player or two. Without the AT trade, each of these three roads is either hindered or blocked entirely.

by SilverClip on Feb 23, 2010 2:03 PM PST reply actions  

I don't think they go together

considering the sequence. The trade between the Cavs-Wiz-Clippers came at the 11th hour of the trade deadline. The Cavs were shopping hard for Amare for awhile as well. It seemed pretty risky that we traded Camby before we had even moved Thornton and Telfair.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 24, 2010 5:50 AM PST up reply actions  

+1

The trade sequence indicates the Clippers wanted to go through with the Camby trade regardless of whether the Telfair/Thornton trade went through. The FO cashed in Camby like a casino chip, and I suppose it was good business. Still, I would have treated a hard working, respected player like Camby with more respect, but the Clipper FO has never been known for displaying class and loyalty.

by ClipCat on Feb 24, 2010 8:14 AM PST up reply actions  

Screw that

This is a business, the Clippers only obligation is to make this team as good as possible. I pull a hair for Marcus Camby having his feelings hurt because he was traded. He’s a big boy, he’ll get over it. It’s not like the Clippers have enjoyed SO much success on the court that they afford to make decisions based on rewarding guys who are perceived to be hard working. Clippers need to worry about winning.

I get your beef that the Clips shouldn’t trade Camby just to cash in on money. But to say that they owed Camby more than that is nonsense. Guys occasionally get traded in professional sports, it’s part of the business. Besides, Camby was here for a season and a half. BFD. I’ll never understand why people were so enamored with this guy that people continue to project this hard working, respected persona that I have no reason to believe is actually true. He throws temper tantrums every time he is traded, milked an injury last season and then (it’s a miracle!) got better just in time to play the last two games and get his roster bonus. Camby’s reputation of being a hard working guy comes from his time BEFORE showing up in LAC, because for the life of me I can’t see any instances you can point to in the time he was here to support the description you have of him above.

by Michael White on Feb 24, 2010 8:21 AM PST up reply actions  

Disagree on two levels

If the trades had been reversed, then maybe I could believe the FO traded Camby out of concern for roster balance and keeping the team respectable for the rest of this season. But that’s not what happened. If the Clips had not pulled off the 2nd trade for Gooden (certainly a possibility at the time), the PF position would have become a major weakness the rest of this season, and the team would have been significantly worse. Had the Clips at least ended up with a draft pick or a prospect, an argument could be made the short term sacrifice was a fair tradeoff for future improvement, but that didn’t happen either. So based on simple logic, the trade was not about making “this team as good as possible.”

Under the right circumstances (i.e. actually making the team better), I would have reluctantly been ok with trading Camby. But Camby was one of the very few Clipper players who I actually enjoyed watching last season. In contrast to some of his teammates, he did play hard when healthy – playing more minutes, pulling down more rebounds and blocking more shots than any Clip fan had reason to expect. Since he showed up to camp in good shape and has been able to remain productive at an age where most of his peers have retired, I have to infer that he works pretty hard off the court, too. Camby also mentored a young DeAndre Jordan through a tough rookie season and didn’t seem to cause any trouble once he got over being dumped by Denver. I don’t know whether or not he milked his injury at the end of the season, but I can’t blame him for wanting to cash in on his bonuses. Due to Camby’s contributions to the team the last two seasons, I believe his wish to remain on the team should have been considered (not necessarily obeyed) for much the same reason that I feel Brand let down the Clips when he left. Players (and team employees and fans) are not just widgets; they are people.

by ClipCat on Feb 24, 2010 9:06 AM PST up reply actions  

I agree and

this does not bode well for our future with the current owner / GM. Which is why I wonder whether dumping Thornton was best for us.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 24, 2010 10:09 AM PST up reply actions  

Then where is your outrage for trading Al Thornton?

He too worked hard when healthy, never caused any problems, seemed like a fairly likeable guy and a good teammate. The reason there are almost no complaints about unloading Thornton is that most view it as a sound basketball move. Sure, it’s rather easy for you to idealistically say that players are not just widgets but are people, but its not like the idea of trading players for other assets is particularly novel and the fact that you only selectively complain about it indicates that you have no moral problem with it. What you have a problem with is that you like Camby and either wanted to keep him or you wanted to get more for him. I get that, I may disagree with your position from a basketball standpoint, but I would understand that position. What I don’t understand and in fact I strongly object to is that you feel the need to play on the heartstrings of Camby being a good guy and the organization didn’t do right by him. I feel the organization has no moral obligation to a guy because they work hard (that is what they are paid for right) and instead they have an obligation to their fans to field the most competitive team possible. You may disagree that this move does that , but to blast the organization for lacking class because they didn’t show adequate respect to Marcus Camby (for doing the job he is paid to do) is offbase.

by Michael White on Feb 24, 2010 10:32 AM PST up reply actions  

Isn't he just saying

that Camby is too valuable to the team to be traded for the limited return they got (i.e., a few bucks)?

I agree with you that this is a business, but from a business perspective the trade just doesn’t make much sense to the Clippers (to me at least). What exactly is it that you like about the trade (other than renting a couple of players for a few months who will not be back but who give D Jordan a chance to play a bit more)? They have the cap space regardless.

Btw, I’m not so sure the Thornton trade was a sound basketball move.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 24, 2010 11:11 AM PST up reply actions  

Well no, I’m not sure thats what he is saying. We have discussed the basketball/business aspects of the Camby and Thornton moves respectively and that wasn’t my reason for getting involved at this point.

I took exception to the notion that Camby was treated poorly by the organization. He was traded because the organization thought it was the best move for the team. The organization might be wrong about that (it wouldn’t be the first time the team made a wrong move) but the logic of trading an asset for other assets I have no philosophical disagreements with. I get that they are people not widgets, but the organization is responsible to the fans, not to the players who are compensated for their participation.

To answer your last question, at the time of the trade I was pretty agnostic about it. I always liked Outlaw and never much cared for Blake (though he’s been rather impressive so far) and taken in a vaccum I hated the idea of DJ or Smith being the starting PF (that would have been a definite downgrade.) But now the Clips have Gooden who isn’t as good as Camby but is much more competent of a PF than DJ or Smith so the Clips actually look pretty good. I always liked Thornton and I generally disagreed with the idea of just clearing out space and hoping for Lebron, but again I get the logic to it.

by Michael White on Feb 24, 2010 11:26 AM PST up reply actions  

Good points

My concern is that running players off for a few bucks like they just did Camby seems to be particularly a Clipper phenomenon. I wonder how this would affect some of the high level potential free agents like LBJ who seem to be genuinely concerned about their teammates (at least those they like) and how the organization they choose might treat them.

Camby was very well-liked by Clipper teammates (BD for example described him as a great player, a great defender). Is there any concern about how LBJ might react to the decision to trade Camby for less than full value just to save a few bucks short term ? I personally think that such actions do not exemplify professionalism and stand in the way of a realistic chance of snaring someone like LBJ. Which is why I’ve been advocating a new GM for a long time now and why I continue to question the merit of dumping Thornton.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 24, 2010 11:44 AM PST up reply actions  

Btw - I've always liked Outlaw - the problem is that he won't be here next year

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 24, 2010 11:49 AM PST up reply actions  

That depends

Outlaw may be here. The Clippers get his Bird rights, so they can offer him the most.

Now, they may have renounced him by then, but who knows. But his return is not out of the question if the others don’t pan out.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 24, 2010 12:00 PM PST up reply actions  

How does this renouncing thing work

Can they wait to renounce until LBJ makes his decision, or is there a deadline by which they have to renounce or be prevented from doing so?

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 24, 2010 12:03 PM PST up reply actions  

From what I understand

the renouncing can be done at the same time that they want to exercise the cap space. So say they reach a deal with James and in order to push the deal through, they renounce everybody. If James announces that he will exercise his player option with Cleveland and we decide to target a cheaper option, then we will at that point renounce the free agents necessary to facilitate that transaction.

by Michael White on Feb 24, 2010 12:13 PM PST up reply actions  

Got it - thanks

So the real issue is whether we can get LBJ to make his decision, either way, before the signing period commences.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 24, 2010 12:44 PM PST up reply actions  

I am saying what Jax wrote, that Camby was too valuable to be traded for what the Clips got, expiring contracts and cash. By value, I mean his productivity, leadership, reputation and entertainment value to the fans. If Dunleavy knew for sure that he would definitely trade Thornton and Telfair the next day, then maybe that would change my thinking a little. But I’m skeptical that the second trade was imminent, and the Camby trade taken by itself would have substantially weakened the team.

The trade also sent the wrong message to the rest of the team. Trading a respected veteran presence doesn’t show the remaining players that their continued hard work and dedication is valued. I doubt that Baron and Kaman both happened to have their worst performances of the season immediately after the Camby trade by coincidence. Going forward, this trade could lower team morale and reinforces the idea that the remaining players are expendable regardless of their performance and effort. We may think players are paid a lot so they should work hard to “earn” their exorbitant contracts, but that’s our perspective and not necessarily that of the players.

Jax makes a good point that future free agents may not look at this trade favorably. Although I wouldn’t expect that to be a primary consideration, dumping players for profit does reinforce the notion that the Clippers aren’t a real team committed to competing with the perenial contenders. I also am concerned about how this trade and constant roster turnover will affect LA’s chances at re-signing its own young players, especially DJ, who seemed to benefit greatly from playing with Camby.

As for outrage over the Thornton trade, I disagreed with that trade, too. I believe the Clips could have traded Thornton and Telfair after the season without too much trouble. Thornton should have been showcased the rest of the season, and LA potentially could have gotten more than just cap space for him. He seems like one of the players who would have benefitted from the coaching change, and he seemed to play pretty well this season when he got consistent minutes as a starter. Even if that didn’t happen, LA still has its first round pick to trade as a substantial incentive for another team under the cap to take on Thornton and/or Telfair later.

Also, I don’t view the trades the same because Thornton was not nearly as valuable to the team this year and last. He may have been liked as a teammate, but he didn’t have nearly the same status and standing as Camby with his teammates and throughout the league. And he didn’t seem too upset at the trade. He may have welcomed it as he’s now with a team that would seem to be a better fit for his abilities. Had Camby not clearly indicated he wanted to be a Clipper and wanted to remain a Clipper, I would not have had as much of a problem with dealing him.

I suspect that Dunleavy either was ordered or felt pressure to make a substantial trade by the deadline. The Camby trade was made to add to the team’s short term profits, and the Telfair/Thornton deal was made to give fans hope for the off-season while cleaning up the roster imbalance caused by the first trade. I believe the trade sequence was not accidental and probably was intentional.

by ClipCat on Feb 24, 2010 1:59 PM PST up reply actions  

Good Points

I can’t really disagree strongly with anything that you’re saying here, and I have a deep respect for the “reasonable intensity” of your feelings about it. But I have to say that I had a different attitude about the whole thing, and I want to try to figure out why that is so.

The Camby trade had a feeling of inevitability about it to me. We have a clear sense now, afterwards (and as you note the timing and intention of the second trade is a complex factor), that clearing the maximum capspace was the priority. If the Clips/GMMDSr had wanted to get prospects or draft picks, they might have been able to. It seems as if they developed a specific goal, and then made moves to execute that goal. The goal was to be able to go after a max free agent, make a big play, and if that doesn’t work then there are still all sorts of free agents out there and they can use the money to build the team around the core. Like I said, I feel like I understand it better now, after the fact. It makes sense at least.

As far as sequencing goes, it may have been backwards, but it can’t be that the Washington/Cleveland trade came out of the blue. The Cavs had to be working on getting Jamison for awhile: he was a primary target. My guess is that trading Thornton and Telfair was GMMDSr’s priority. When he thought he had a way to make that happen, and getting in on the Cleveland/Washington trade seemed like a possibility, that’s when he started looking around to replace Thornton and Telfair, and that’s when he pulled the quick trigger on the Portland trade. But all of that’s just a guess. Outlaw and Blake are just a bit too tidy as replacements and even upgrades on T&T for it to have been an accident.

On Camby and his discontent. I have to say that this deal seems more like a favor to Camby than a slight or poor, disrespectful treatment. Camby seems to be interested in projecting the importance of continuity and loyalty, in a business where that’s not going to work out very often. If he really wants to play with Baron, Kaman, Griffin, Gordon, DJ and the Clippers, this was the best way to do it, by the way. He’s welcome to sign with them at a minimal rate next year. In the meantime, he’s got a chance to compete and probably play in the playoffs, and play games that count. He goes to a very appreciative fan base. He should be fine.

As far as leaving the Clippers is concerned, the way I look at that one is that things have evolved in some very interesting ways since training camp and the beginning of the season, and going even further back, things have come a very long way from when Camby was hastily acquired to fill the gap left by FElton’s departure. There were a lot of things going on with Camby: we finally got to see Kaman-Camby, and it was really fun to watch. But it also didn’t work perfectly, and it wasn’t enough to withstand EGordon missing games. His good guy, veteran leadership, play hard mode was great and his play was fun to watch and it will be missed, but it wasn’t so essential that it should block major change and turnover. With Gooden, Blake, and Outlaw, and DJ playing a new role, the Clips could be an improved team.

Big things that happened that have to be factored in are that Kaman stepped into a new level of expertise and a new role, Griffin didn’t get on the court (after ZBo was traded—that’s probably the deal to worry about at this point, for this season, but there was no way to see this coming), and DJordan’s progress and need for minutes is ahead of schedule. Kaman-Camby was nice, but we were never going to see Camby-Griffin, a lost opportunity for Camby, and we had no Camby-Zbo this year. Kaman’s inattentiveness in rebounding with Camby on the floor is another thing that’s revealing itself.

The main thing is, or seems to be, that all of the different strands played themselves out, the Clips weren’t heading to the playoffs, and that meant that Camby would be part of the change, sent to a team making a playoff run that would give up something that the Clippers could use. Again, it’s a bit clearer after the fact. I’m still not sure why I wasn’t upset at all about at the time, when others were, but it just seemed to be part of the general sequence of things.

by citizen zhiv on Feb 24, 2010 2:31 PM PST up reply actions  

I guess

I don’t see Outlaw and Blake as true replacements for Thornton and Telfair since they are gone after this year.

And I continue to believe that we could have gotten much more for Camby.

But I think this is a dead horse at this point. Hopefully MDSr can work his magic and sign LBJ and the rest is history.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 24, 2010 4:52 PM PST up reply actions  

Thanks for the feedback

I also had to stop and consider why there wasn’t greater indignation about the Camby trade such as happened after FElton snuck out of town. I agree that had a lot to do with the general consensus that Camby was likely a goner. At the start of the season, I, too, expected him to be traded if Kaman and BG stayed healthy and played reasonably well. With the playoffs out of the picture, it still wasn’t especially surprising he was traded. It was the trade itself that I didn’t see coming.

Sill, it seemed to me that discontent over the trade seemed to be building until Blake and Outlaw arrived. That appears to have appeased most of the Nation. I’m not down on either of them and already had thought about Outlaw as someone the Clips might want to sign in the off-season. However, Portland’s choice of players was limited since they had to be expiring contracts. So I’m not so sure Blake and Outlaw aren’t the guys Portland chose to send out. That they took the places of players the Clippers wanted to trade could have been a fortunate coincidence. We can only speculate, and perhaps being a Clipper fan for too long has made me cynical about management. Then again, cynicism tends to blend into reality with Sterling.

But as to why I was upset by this trade, I’ve always been more of a fan of the players than of the franchise itself. The colors and logo are ok I guess, but the coaching, management and owner generally have not been something to root for over the years. So my attachment to the Clips has always been to the players and especially hard-nosed bangers like Bo Outlaw, Loy Vaught, FElton, Chris Kaman and Camby. Their style of play reflected how I played basketball. That is to say, I wasn’t especially skilled, but I was tall and played hard. So my strong reaction is not just about facts and figures, but then it’s the nature of a fan to have attachments to the players on your team. Otherwise, who or what is it exactly that we root for?

by ClipCat on Feb 24, 2010 7:13 PM PST up reply actions  

There is so much conjecture in there I don't know where to start

The trade also sent the wrong message to the rest of the team. Trading a respected veteran presence doesn’t show the remaining players that their continued hard work and dedication is valued.

For 1 thing, these guys are professionals. It’s their damn job. People always say that midseason trades send the wrong message, that they are giving up on the season or whatever. But the fact remains that sometimes trades are necessary and sure you want to give a thought to how it will affect the chemistry of the team but if these millionaires can’t get over it quickly and get back to doing what they are paid for, I’m afraid their is a bigger problem than the trade itself and the big problem is the team lacks any professionals. If that’s the case, the Clips might need to work on that.

LA still has its first round pick to trade as a substantial incentive for another team under the cap to take on Thornton and/or Telfair later.

That seems stupid. So you are saying you disagreed with the timing of the Thornton trade because even if we didn’t do it now, we could have done it later only we would have had to give up more to do so. That doesn’t make sense.

He may have been liked as a teammate, but he didn’t have nearly the same status and standing as Camby with his teammates and throughout the league

Obviously you have a better feel for the pulse of the NBA than I do. I just watch the games and make opinions on how good these guys are at basketball. I don’t have a network of sources that can explain to me that Camby is respected more throughout the league than Al Thornton is. Again, if this were true (and teams actually cared about the level of respect you believe Camby has as opposed to his ability to play basketball well) perhaps there would have been better deals for the Clippers at the deadline. Though, I take the fact that this is all we got for Camby as a sign that this was the market for him, and not a sign that Dunleavy is incompetent (which he would have to be since its such common knowledge that Camby is so valuable and respected throughout the league.)

I also am concerned about how this trade and constant roster turnover will affect LA’s chances at re-signing its own young players, especially DJ, who seemed to benefit greatly from playing with Camby.

At this point I’m more concerned with Deandre Jordan’s ability to play basketball at the NBA level than I am about our chances at re-signing him.

Although I wouldn’t expect that to be a primary consideration, dumping players for profit does reinforce the notion that the Clippers aren’t a real team committed to competing with the perenial contenders.

Not that you have even proven that the Clippers have done that, but isn’t that the exact circumstances that we got Camby to begin with. He was traded for nothing so that Denver could avoid luxury tax implications, it hasn’t hurt Denver’s reputation any. Doesn’t every team make decisions based on financial concerns? Where did this idea that it was unique (and particularly damaging) to the Clippers come from?

by Michael White on Feb 24, 2010 2:31 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't get your last point

Denver traded Camby for salary cap considerations – shedding whatever his salary was – $17 M? – so they could sign other players and make the team better.

The Clippers apparently traded Camby for $3 M cash so DTS could pocket the money, enhancing his personal bank account.

Is that the same thing?

LOL at the D Jordan argument.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 24, 2010 4:49 PM PST up reply actions  

I thought it was to get under the luxury tax, which is effectively the same thing. I could be wrong though. But if a team trades somebody to get under the luxury tax which saves the owner money, its the same thing as the team trading someone for cash which gives the owner money. If the Denver/ Camby trade was to free up cap space to sign other players, then ignore my last point.

by Michael White on Feb 24, 2010 4:56 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't know the answer

But I think there might be a difference between getting under the cap and simply pocketing cash.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 24, 2010 5:09 PM PST up reply actions  

it was basically the same

denver didn’t want to pay the luxury tax, so they give us a free camby, is the same we did trade him for money.

by XXDC2XX on Feb 24, 2010 6:39 PM PST up reply actions  

Is it?

I think dumping a player to get under the cap is abgenerally accepted as reasonable around the league. However, dumping a good player simply to pocket straight cash is a douche move.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 24, 2010 6:56 PM PST up reply actions  

+1

That’s the concise version of my response below.

by ClipCat on Feb 24, 2010 7:58 PM PST up reply actions  

you are probably right

main difference i guess is we could have gotten something else like a pick.

by XXDC2XX on Feb 25, 2010 1:05 PM PST up reply actions  

No need to get too worked up over my opinions. I’m not trying to win a point by point debate with you – just trying to explain my perspective. There’s plenty of conjecture in both our reasoning, and I respectfully disagree with yours. I’ll just respond to two points you made.

1) My statement that the Clips could use their 1st to help move Thornton and Telfair was taken out of context. I wasn’t advocating for that, just showing that the Clips had plenty of other options that could still have resulted in the cap space to sign LeBron. That particular scenario would only occur after they had a verbal commitment from LeBron in which case they likely would need to trade the rights to whoever they drafted in order to sign him. And I would expect them to get something back in that deal even if it wasn’t fair market value.

2) The Clippers have a history and reputation for making decisions based on finances at the expense of their on-court product. They’ve improved that image, but they have a long ways to go to get out of the deep hole dug throughout most of Sterling’s ownership. Giving up Camby was a financial decision for both Denver and LA, but getting under the luxury tax IMO is more acceptable than pocketing a quick profit when its convenient (sustainable business practice > greed). Denver gets the benefit of the doubt because they started with a better reputation, and they already had spent the money to build a winning team. The Clippers have often had a payroll near the minimum and have never significantly exceeded the salary cap.

by ClipCat on Feb 24, 2010 7:54 PM PST up reply actions  

I’m not getting worked up at all. Frankly, I have enjoyed debating with you in the past (both regarding NBA and MLB) so I didn’t think I was nor intended to go overboard in my responses…..

by Michael White on Feb 25, 2010 7:57 AM PST up reply actions  

Cool, it’s hard to tell sometimes in this format.

by ClipCat on Feb 25, 2010 8:34 AM PST up reply actions  

Hmmm, a question of motive

SP has been pretty clear that he thinks the AT trade was about cap space, and that the Camby trade was just irritating. So our motive was mainly over cap space and Lebron, with some $ thrown in.

I think the trade combination was about offseason flexibility, which is enhanced by our present competitiveness. Sequence notwithstanding, I think that Dun’s motive was forward-looking and GM-strategic. I’ll stand by that.

ClipCat, I believe, thinks our motive was mainly financial, with a some cap space thrown in.

“I suspect that Dunleavy either was ordered or felt pressure to make a substantial trade by the deadline. The Camby trade was made to add to the team’s short term profits, and the Telfair/Thornton deal was made to give fans hope for the off-season while cleaning up the roster imbalance caused by the first trade.”

This is a little like SP view, but with a more cynical emphasis. I’m not convinced that he’s wrong, either, but I am very skeptical.

Cap space, flexibility, or financial profit. Or something else.

The butler did it, but by what motive? This would make a good post.

by SilverClip on Feb 24, 2010 3:25 PM PST up reply actions  

Maybe I overstated my point, but I think the Camby trade was about cashing out, while the Telfair/Thornton deal was about cap space. I’m not sure what we intend to do with that cap space should we miss out on LeBron or the other top FA’s, and that’s where skepticism fits in. I also doubt that Dunleavy has the autonomy and authority to act only in the interest of improving the team.

by ClipCat on Feb 24, 2010 7:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Good Topic

I’d like to discuss this, and CC makes some good points. Don’t have time at the moment. Later.

by citizen zhiv on Feb 24, 2010 10:46 AM PST up reply actions  

If the trade was really just about the extra $3M

then I’m inclined to agree, Camby deserved better, but much more importantly it doesn’t make the team better (no draft pick or prospect), and that’s pretty F’ed up.

But I’m inclined to look for other motives. They’re not hard to find, either, though I admit that I can’t know what Dun was really thinking.

The trades taken together do put us in a promising place on a number of levels. The present roster looks balanced and reasonably strong, we have a number of talents that can opt to resign (or sign and trade), and we have that cap space now. I stress, it’s the pairing of the two trades that accomplishes all this. Whether or not Dun got lucky, both trades were required. (The AT trade alone really just gives us cap space).

I don’t have a great answer for the sequence of the trades. It’s a good counter-argument. But I might speculate that the two trades were less than a day apart (as I recall), and so Dun may have had reason to be confident. Or, maybe Dun had another fall-back trade in his back pocket. It’s also worth considering the possibility, maybe Dun was alright with the Camby trade if the AT trade fell through, but not vice versa. After the Camby trade, DJ is still around to plug the gap. After the AT trade (w/o the Camby trade), we have no depth at the 1 and 3, so the season would be imperiled. Since the AT trade was really for cap space, it would be counterproductive to go into free fall… Hurts our team image and creates a larger cap hold with our draft pick.

So the sequencing argument still doesn’t convince me. We’ve ended up with some excellent flexibility, and I’m inclined to believe that this was Dun’s priority all along.

by SilverClip on Feb 24, 2010 11:35 AM PST up reply actions  

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