Clippers 97 - Pistons 91 - LA Sweeps Detroit
I watched this game at home with my good friends Nick and Maya, who are passing through LA after their honeymoon in New Zealand. Neither is a huge hoops fan - Nick usually goes to a Clippers game with me when he's in town, but Maya may have been watching her first ever NBA game. It's always interesting to me to watch games with people who aren't immersed in the NBA, because it helps me see things from a different perspective.
At the start of the game, I mentioned that the Clippers had lost 13 of 14 against the Pistons, and Nick, very logically stated that it didn't matter - these are two different teams, so seven years of history has no bearing on this particular game. I had to confront my illogical (yet very real) belief that it did matter - that certain opponents just have a team's number. Maybe it's confidence of the dominant team, or lack of confidence of the other team. Maybe there's something else. But something about the Pistons just seems to mean that the Clippers will struggle, regardless of who is on the roster.
For most of the first half, it seemed that my illogical fear was well-founded. Then again, maybe it wasn't so illogical after all. While it's true that the Pistons were 21 and 35 coming into this game, most of those losses came with either Tayshaun Prince or Rip Hamilton or both out of the lineup. Both of those guys were playing tonight, and neither has much experience with losing to the Clippers (Prince has none). As for the Clippers, they just couldn't make shots in the first half. They hovered around 30% shooting for most of it, and compounded that by turning the ball over 10 times, continuing a disturbing trend. By all rights they should have been down by 20, but somehow they found themselves down only 8 at the intermission.
The second half was much better. The Clippers held onto the ball (4 turnovers) and started making some shots. They also played pretty good defense, making Detroit work much harder for their scores.
In the fourth quarter, two guys who had combined to miss all seven of their three point attempts through three quarters decided to dual it out from beyond the arc. Rasual Butler made three three pointers in the quarter - and each one was huge. He tied the game for the first time since the first quarter with his first three. His second a few moments later gave them their biggest lead of the game to that point, a four point cushion. And his last secured the lead for good after Detroit had regained control.
On the other side, Hamilton, a 25% three point shooter this season who had made only 21 on the year coming in, made two on consecutive possessions to take a 3 point Clipper lead and flip it. Then, with less than a minute to go, he made his biggest shot of the night to give the Pistons the lead with the shot clock winding down. Butler answer immediately with his own three.
For all of his prowess shooting the three, Hamilton was terrible from the free throw line tonight. He made only 2 of 8, and missed three in the final seconds when he could have cut the lead to 1 and given Detroit one final chance in the game. It had to have been Hamilton's worst free throw shooting night ever.
For the Clippers, Butler was clearly the hero. While it's true that he struggled in the rest of the game (he was 2 for 10 going into the fourth), his 12 points in the final frame were crucial. He also made the block on Stuckey that more or less sealed the win.
The bad news is that Eric Gordon struggled for the second game in a row. The three pointer wasn't falling (1 for 4), nor was he particularly successful driving. He finished 4 for 13 from the field, scoring just 13 points on those 13 shots, a much lower efficiency than we're used to seeing from EJ.
We wondered in the preview what Kim Hughes would do at the power forward spot. I knew that eventually Drew Gooden would be the starter there. DeAndre Jordan is not a 4, and Craig Smith is a little undersized and one dimensional to be the starter. Well, eventually came a little sooner than I expected, as Gooden became the starter in only his second game as a Clipper. He responded with 20 points and 13 rebounds (6 offensive rebounds). Combined with Chris Kaman's 21 and 15, the Clippers starting big went for 41 points and 28 rebounds - a monstrous night.
Gooden and Kaman helped the Clippers to a huge 56 to 44 rebounding advantage. After giving up 19 offensive rebounds to the Pistons in their first meeting in Detroit, it was pretty disconcerting to see Detroit grab 17 offensive rebounds in this one. But then again the Clippers themselves had 21 offensive boards, so that more than made up for it.
It's nice to get a win against the Pistons. It's nice to have the team on a three game winning streak. It's nice to have the team look relatively deep for the second game in a row (Craig Smith didn't do much, and Travis Outlaw didn't have as good a game as he did on Monday, but even so you tell these guys can play). But things get a LOT tougher Friday in Phoenix, so let's not get too excited just yet.
A couple of final notes on this game:
- Kim Hughes took over the Clippers talking about how they were going to be a fast breaking team. For the second game in a row, both of them wins, the Clippers got zero fast break points.
- The Pistons are paying $16.5M this season, and $96M over five seasons, to two guys who played a combined 36 minutes tonight - and they signed Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva this summer. It's not like they got a couple good years out of them and then they declined. The contract is starting out as a disaster - we'll have to invent new words for how bad it will be a couple of years from now. Gordon didn't make a shot or score a point. Those contracts are going to doom the Pistons to mediocrity for 3 or 4 seasons at least. Let's hope GMMDsr notes the lesson - don't spend your cap space just because you can.
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Good morning, and thank you SP for the write-up
Did Maya enjoy the game?
What is up with EJ committing fouls on 3-pointers in the waning seconds when the team is up by 4? I’m reminded of a phase when I repeatedly forgot to latch my lunch box before picking it up. It’s just a brain fart.
Very nice to see a few wins for a change. It sometimes looks like our guys are swimming through molasses, but they also seem more talented and determined.
And great point about not overpaying in the offseason. I would think we should either land top talent for the long term, or else just shore things up for the short term.
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
Maya
She stayed up for all of it, even though we didn’t fire it up until about 11 on the DVR… but I think she just wanted to hang out with me.
I meant to say something about EJ but forgot – he actually had two plays in the final 20 seconds that were potentially costly. After the Clippers got the stop up two, they ran out on the fast break and EJ got his shot blocked by Prince – if you don’t have a dunk in that situation, you pull the ball out. Then he committed the foul on the three.
In both cases, there is only one play that can really hurt you (coming away from a possession with less than 24 seconds without using clock and scoring, giving up a four point play) and he managed to do both of them. The Clippers were very fortunate to get away with both of them, as they got the loose ball after Prince’s block and Hamilton missed the three and all the free throws.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Feb 25, 2010 9:11 AM PST up reply actions
Well he didnt start that break
The ball probably shouldn’t have been in his hands to begin with on that possession, but once he got it that was a pretty big error.
The lesson, as always, is that running is dumb.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Ha
It’s funny. I didn’t have the exact same though you did (that running is always dumb) but right after it happened I kind of said to myself, “well Hughes did want them to get a fast break basket.” Obviously two really dumb plays by EJ and if that 4 point play would have happened at the end of the game it would be just as insanse as hanging on the rim to get a technical and blow the game, twice.
by Michael White on Feb 25, 2010 9:44 AM PST up reply actions
I mean look if you have an uncontested break there you take it
But it was pretty well contested before EJ caught the ball. I’m looking for the vet PG there to know to run out the clock.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
gotta blame bd on that one...
When he started that break, I couldn’t believe they were running it…It didn’t look like they had numbers…
This new look Pistons look awful…what are they trying to build?
Roger Sterling: To my knees, Don. They're bringing to my knees!"
by Lawler's Law on Feb 25, 2010 11:20 AM PST up reply actions
It’s barons fault Gordon got blocked? Of course if Blake had the ball he would of thrown it down? Come on guys
by Sam50 on Feb 25, 2010 2:41 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
pull it back out....didn't he know the clock?
Roger Sterling: To my knees, Don. They're bringing to my knees!"
by Lawler's Law on Feb 25, 2010 6:07 PM PST up reply actions
Easy bucket means stretch the lead
rather than keep a small lead and take chances in cutting team.
I’d take the points 90% of the time
"Running"
Not sure what that means in a basketball context anymore. The teams we associate with “running” aren’t really running teams, but rather “gunning” teams.
What sets the Suns and Warriors apart is that they chuck up a bunch of 3’s early in the clock. Sure they run, but it’s usually right to the 3-pt line. But those teams are also methodical in what they do
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Rasual Butler said it best after the game
As he was interviewed. He basically said that the coach gives them the green light to shoot and that the team plays faster now and that it’s fun.
It’s early, but those are encouraging signs IMO.
Perhaps the sky isn’t falling after all.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Fun Fact
Clippers overall pace for the season: 92.1
Clippers overall pace in the post-CMDSr era: 91.5
Last night’s game: 84.6
So except for them being slower now, Butler did say it best.
I guess.
Clippers’ pace was also 92.1 last season as well.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
It's sad
You seem to be more interested in arguing than just enjoying the wins. You have four posts in this discussion, which really is celebrating a nice Clipper win, and you don’t seem very happy.
Did you enjoy the game last night? Is there anything we can do to brighten your day?
PS – I don’t know about the factors that contribute to “pace,” whatever that may be, but I do know that Rasual is a professional NBA player who has played with the team all year. He probably has a fairly good idea about the systems he’s played under and whether he’s enjoying playing for Hughes.
I suppose that I could side with you on this, based on your obvious NBA experience, but I think I’ll take his side here.
In any event, I’m sure that you hope that the team continues to improve under new leadership. After all, MDSr himself thought it was time for him to step down. Indeed, Hughes already has a winning percentage better than MDSr (not that that’s saying much).
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Not saying much....
And also not true. On any level.
Kim Hughes – 3-5, .375
Mike Dunleavy career – .461
Mike Dunleavy Clippers career – .397
Mike Dunleavy season – .421
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Feb 25, 2010 10:49 AM PST up reply actions
I thought he was 3 - 4 - my bad
Either way, not the disaster projected by some if you are comparing his percentage to his predecessor.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Oh oh....
Players often say things that aren’t necessarily demonstrated in the data. I’d tend to believe Butler more about the ‘green light’ (something that has more to do with feelings, i.e. the confidence his coach instills in him) than about the ‘faster’ thing, which would certainly not seem to be true.
They’re certainly not playing faster in any measurable way, and quite the opposite, as you point out. Be careful with throwing out an 84.6 for an individual game – the Pistons play at the second slowest pace in the league, and both of the teams on the court impact the pace of the game. One reason the Clippers’ pace under Hughes is statistically down is the opponents – San Antonio, Atlanta, Charlotte, Detroit and Portland are five of the seven slowest paced teams in the league in pace (balanced by Golden State of course, who’s first by a mile).
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Feb 25, 2010 10:29 AM PST up reply actions
I don't think he was talking about "pace"
If you watch the team run their offense, it appears at least to me that they are playing with more confidence and that they are playing with more purpose. Not sure what Rasual meant by his use of the term, but perhaps you can ask him the next time you get a chance. He’s clearly happy about the new system.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
And for those 8 games
They played slower than their opponents’ average except for 2., including all of the bottom pace teams.
The Clippers have just played slower now.
There isn’t any reasonable way to call last night’s game fast paced.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
If you say so, my man, if you say so
You’re the “pace” expert apparently
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
About Eric Gordon's Foul
Here is a quote from a recap article of the game on LA Times:
“I appreciate him missing the free throws,” joked interim Clippers Coach Kim Hughes, who said Gordon was supposed to foul Hamilton before the shot but apparently “didn’t get the memo.”
Maybe Gordon wasn’t expecting the shot so early, or was confident with the defensive positioning he had. Regardless, I am happy the Clippers were able to come back again to win in the 4th (30-20) even after a game with a ton of missed open shots.
I was excited to see how much energy Gooden put in the game. He really wasn’t bluffing when he said he had a lot to show the Clippers’ fans. Whenever I think of Gooden, I think of that offensive rebound machine that use to be on the Cavs. He would just always get the offensive rebounds and give his team 2nd chances.
It is way too early to judge this Clippers team with just a few games, but if this keeps up our GM has a lot more potential options this summer.
by ClipperTheorist on Feb 25, 2010 9:27 AM PST up reply actions
I blame Dunleavy for not telling him the situation.
Wait, what?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
I don't understand what Kim was thinking.
Before the EJ foul on Rip’s three, EJ intentionally fouled before that. You’re team is up for points, not three. There’s no reason to foul to stop a tying a three. Didn’t get that at all.
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's doing down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on Feb 25, 2010 11:57 AM PST up reply actions
the first foul
They had that one to give, so they gave it. that’s SOP.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Feb 25, 2010 3:37 PM PST up reply actions
But why do it immediately? I thought they should've burned another second or two.
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's doing down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on Feb 26, 2010 9:33 AM PST up reply actions
I love the effort
This team is competing every night, too bad we didn’t make these trades earlier.
We gotta resign Blake the guy is a winner.
by The Blake Griffin Era on Feb 25, 2010 7:17 AM PST via mobile reply actions
Another fun end of season
Funny how after the Clips have blown any chance of making the playoffs, the games get interesting again. Much like last season, we have a team full of different, interesting characters to root for. And it doesn’t matter so much if they win or not, although this 3 game streak has been fantastic!
Silver lining?
Someone please correct me if I’m misunderstanding, but I think if we get too high of a draft pick, we’ll be forced to sacrifice more of our cap space. Therefore, it would only make sense for the Clips to keep fighting hard to get a decent record, to maximize our cap space and attract a free agent with our roster’s talent… right?
Correct
If the Clips wanted to offer the max to Lebron, they would likely have to trade their first round pick.
by Michael White on Feb 25, 2010 8:57 AM PST up reply actions
Unless we #1 pick
I’d trade our 1st round pick. It’s a very weak draft and we don’t need to waste cap space on a player that probably won’t be on the team in three years.
by Highbury Library on Feb 25, 2010 8:59 AM PST up reply actions
We'd need to keep it at #2 as well. Evan Turner is the type of 3 that we have needed.
by Lawler 4ever on Feb 25, 2010 11:01 AM PST up reply actions
I am a big Turner fan
but he seems more like a poor man’s Brandon Roy than a Shane Battier. I think Turner needs the ball in his hands a lot in order to be effective, and we don’t need that from our SF.
by Highbury Library on Feb 25, 2010 3:00 PM PST up reply actions
Wouldn’t a poor man’s Brandon Roy be better than Shane Battier?
by Michael White on Feb 25, 2010 3:08 PM PST up reply actions
Turner is going to be really good
It’s a good problem to have, he would fit in perfectly with the starting 5.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Feb 25, 2010 3:36 PM PST up reply actions
Yes he would be
The point I was trying to make is that Turner is much more of a combo guard than the oft-desired “3 and D” SF.
by Highbury Library on Feb 25, 2010 5:06 PM PST up reply actions
Yea
But I think if you’re picking in the top 3, you’re looking for a superstar, not a role playing SF.
The reality is that this team needs more than just a “3 and D” SF. We’re not the Spurs here. This team needs star talent. It simply doesn’t have it.
If the Clips somehow luck into the top 3 again, you get the best player available.
I agree
I was responding to Lawler 4ever that drafting Turner with the intention of making him our starting 3 is probably unwise since he projects to be Brandon Roy-lite.
by Highbury Library on Feb 25, 2010 5:18 PM PST up reply actions
He actually reminds me more of Andre Iguodala
not quite as freakish the athlete but better fundamentally.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Feb 25, 2010 5:31 PM PST up reply actions
i dont agree here
griffin was the concesus 1st, hasnt play yet, but we assume and hope he wil be a star. after him only curry and evans are good. tabeet has bust written all over him, i dont think harden is going to be a star, rubio probably wont come untill traded, flyyn (not star material)jennings is getting worst by month, only griffin, tyreke and curry are star material and i think curry is not gonna develop well because of playing in gs.
The logic's a little inverted...
We don’t know exactly where the cap will be set, so we don’t know how much they might be able to pay a first round pick. My gut is that they can’t afford the pick at all. In that case, they have to trade the pick to preserve the space, and if you’re going to do that, you want it to be as high as possible to get as much value as possible. For instance, trading a first rounder now for a future first rounder and cash – something like that.
BUT, this is not a tanking year. We’ve become experts in Advanced Tanking Theory the last few seasons. Plan A for improving the team is attracting a major free agent, not maximizing chances for winning the lottery. So you want to close the season as strong as possible really. The fact that they also have this complication of the money they’ll owe a first rounder is another, less significant, factor in not tanking.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Feb 25, 2010 9:16 AM PST up reply actions
Now HERE's where the Camby trade becomes important and looks more rational
If you’re going to trade AT and Telfair for cap space, then obviously you have free agency in mind. But as you mention, here’s our Plan A: Close the season as strong as possible to attract a top tier guy.
Sooooo, BEFORE trading AT and Telfair, you want to make sure you have good, expiring replacements. Hence the Camby trade comes first. DJ, Smith, and whoever else you can get (Gooden) can fill in at the 4, but you’ve GOT to at least have a backup pg in order to be competitive.
Had the AT trade not gone through, well, then we didn’t optimize Camby’s value, but we do get time to develop DJ, plus we have some nice Bird rights.
Had we traded away AT and Telfair first, and had the Camby trade then fallen through, we would have been far less than optimized for our pursuit of Lebron. Our bench would have been too weak to finish the year well, and our pick would likely have come in too high. Dunleavy might have seen this as the greater evil. Hence, his sequencing of the trades.
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
If that's the plan, then I agree with it
The problem is that many of the players that helped them play better won’t be back.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
If we sign Lebron, then it won't matter,
and if we don’t sign him, then we should try to resign some of our guys after all.
Actually, though, what’s more important to me is to ascribe some rationality to the two trades as a pair. Otherwise, we’re stuck looking at the Camby trade as a non-basketball money maker that randomly happened to compliment the AT trade. I have a very hard time believing that. —LOL, I also suppose that I don’t WANT to believe that! I think that Dunleavy is a smart guy who cares about basketball, and frankly, this illusion is important to me. I hope it’s true.
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
It helps basketball wise
Whether he had the specific pieces in place first or not, he knew that Thornton and Telfair had to go in order to get the cap space. That was a given. So Camby for upgraded replacements works from a basketball standpoint – for 30 games. So prioritizing a good performance over those 30 games, as a way to be more attractive to free agents, is not unreasonable. But I don’t think the Bird rights are significant.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Feb 25, 2010 11:10 AM PST up reply actions
Good points
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Feb 25, 2010 10:43 AM PST up reply actions
Gotta Say
I hate the idea of trading a lottery pick. That makes the trades worse to me. They should have found a way to free up that extra cap space to keep the pick. Teams like the Clips can’t afford to trade away lottery picks. That’s just asking for trouble. Lottery picks are pretty much the only way you get star talent for bargain prices. Teams like Phoenix put themselves in a lot of trouble by giving away first rounders to save money.
"should have found a way to free up extra cap space"
That would have to entail trading one of Gordon, Kaman, Baron or Griffin, right? Or simply not going after Lebron.
It’s hard to imagine a lottery pick around 8-9 would be worth trading any of those players in a straight salary dump.
by Michael White on Feb 25, 2010 11:09 AM PST up reply actions
True
There were very few other options. You can free up almost a million more by not exercising DJ’s option. And then you’re down to those four.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Feb 25, 2010 11:11 AM PST up reply actions
Yea I guess so
For some reason, the various sites I was relying on for the math seemed to indicate that we’d have enough cap space for a MAX deal without that.
I’m not sure it makes any sense to deal a lottery pick. What happens if we get in the top 3? Do you still make that trade? Probably not.
I just hate trading lottery picks for nothing. I’ve always been a supporter going after Lebron. But man it hurts! haha
I guess we can be reasonable Clippers fans
and just count on no superstars signing with us next season. With that in mind, we will be able to fill out the roster with nice pieces, including our draft pick.
I totally agree
you don’t want to just dump lottery picks, I really hope we don’t deal this pick for a future one.
by The Blake Griffin Era on Feb 25, 2010 12:20 PM PST up reply actions
Timing
With thanks to Clip Nation, I’ll be watching this offseason very closely. But frankly I’ve never before kept my eye on the offseason calendar as moves were going down.
So I take it that the draft occurs first, and then the free agent season opens. If so, then we may have to trade the pick without having any real idea what our sweepstakes chances are. - That’s a tough pill to swallow.
What are the chances that we’ll draft somebody, and then if Lebron comes through, we can then turn around and trade him? I’d be a little nervous that we’d have trouble with the deal, and the delay might cost us. Or, maybe other teams shooting for Lebron would try to sabatoge our trade efforts, forcing us out of the sweepstakes.
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
Yea
The draft comes a couple of weeks before free agency period starts, and I think about a month before free agents can actually sign.
The scenario you’re thinking could happen, but it would be highly unlikely. First of all, I can’t even remember the last time someone was drafted, and then traded later that summer. It could happen though. But it would have to be a situation where everything falls in line perfectly – ie Lebron wants to come and we can swing a trade immediately. Lebron isn’t going to wait around while we try to find a trade partner.
Isn’t it rare for a recently drafted player to be traded for cap space because lottery picks are valuable, and teams want to hold onto them. I don’t think the Clippers would have any problems finding a willing taker for the rights to their lottery pick should LeBron come calling. If the tables were turned, I’d be thrilled for the Clips to get the rights to a lottery pick at a low cost.
we could trade the pick for ricky rubio
if we do that, and we get lucky and lebron decides to come, we could sign rubio even over the cap right??
Exactly
I still have a Rubio man-crush, so I am holding out hope that the first NBA team he plays for is LAC.
by Michael White on Feb 25, 2010 1:16 PM PST up reply actions
+1
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
That would be a great move for us
We don’t really need a rookie next year anyways, so even if Rubio took another 1-2 years to come over it would be worth it.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Feb 25, 2010 3:38 PM PST up reply actions
i have such a man-crush on him
that i had to talk me into the idea that getting griffin and the first pick was better than getting the second and rubio, still was hoping for memphis to do something stupid like trading the pick to us. i think dunleavy would have happily give kaman for the 5th pick had i known it was rubio
What happened to Joe Dumars?
He began the decade by letting Grant Hill leave (good move), trading Jerry Stakhouse for Rip Hamilton (proving once again to be a worthy foil to Michael Jordan), acquring Ben Wallace and Chauncey Billups, hiring Rick Carlisle (good), firing Rick Carlisle for Larry Brown (good), and trading for Rasheed Wallace. His only bad move (and it was a bad one) during that time was drafting Darko ahead of Carmelo, Bosh and Wade.
These moves won the Pistons a championship and took them to Game 7 of the Finals the next year. Detroit reached six straight ECFs.
Then it gets ugly. Though he wisley chose not to overpay Ben Wallace, he extended Hamilton too much for too long. To compensate for that, he traded Billups for AI so that he can have cap space a whole year earlier than the biggest free agent summer of the decade. With all of that cash was burning a hole in his pocket, and needs at PF and Center, he spends $90+M on undersized combo guard and a small forward, both of whom now are coming off the bench.
Indeed. let’s hope Dunleavy heeds the lesson, and doesn’t just sign players to sign players.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Dumars
When Milph were saying something along the lines of “Dumars is still one of the best GMs in the league” I found myself screaming at the TV in disagreement. Your list of good moves is hard to argue with, though I would quibble a bit. Maybe it’s just that I think Ben Wallace and Chauncey Billups were more about luck than anything else. Did he know that Billups was going to turn into a perennial all star when he signed him as a five year vet who’d mostly been a backup? If he did know that, why didn’t he sign him two years earlier when he was a free agent and went to the Wolves for about $2M per year? Ditto Ben Wallace – yes, he was smart to let Grant Hill go in retrospect (of course, he may have had some inside info on how much the Pistons doctors had effed him up), but Wallace and Chucky Atkins appear to have been more or less warm bodies in the sign and trade – I find it hard to believe that Ben Wallace was the key to that deal. In fact, the irony hear is that Orlando renounced Billups in order to clear cap space for Hill and McGrady. Dumars appears to have chosen Chucky Atkins over Billups two years before he signed him.
Everyone gave him a pass on the Milicic thing because the won the title when Milicic was a rookie, so all was forgiven. But I tend to view Dumars as a guy who lucked into a couple of monstrously fortunate signings to get to the top, and hasn’t been able to do any of the heavy lifting involved in staying at the top.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Feb 25, 2010 10:41 AM PST up reply actions
Pretty much agree
It’s kind of crazy to me that Dumars has this incredible rep as a great executive. Yes he brought the team a championship, and he deserves a lot of respect for that, but he’s also stumbled over and over again since.
I do think he realized that Chauncey was coming into his own when he signed him away from Minny. Chauncey had a great year in Minny but a lot of people missed it because, well it was in Minny. Dumars noticed and smartly signed him away.
Wallace though was pure luck. He didn’t “let” Grant Hill go. He had no choice. The Magic sold him on pairing with another star in Orlando and he was gone. It was about getting something to salvage the situation and they got really lucky with Wallace. Even if Dumars saw potential in Wallace, he was hardly happy to let Hill go for Wallace.
But drafting Darko, trading Chauncey, extending Rip and signing Ben Gordon/Charlie V were just horrible, inexcusable moves.
You left out some key moves he did make though
He did draft Arron Afflalo, Mehmet Okur, Tayshaun Prince. Also traded Jerry Stackhouse for Rip Hamilton a deal that looked unbalanced at the time. His recent transactions have been bad, he tried to reload and ended up ruining what was a pretty good team in just a year.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Feb 25, 2010 1:03 PM PST up reply actions
Yea
I mean I wasn’t listing each and every move he made. You’ll note that he lost Affalo and Okur for virtually nothing and gave Rip an inexplicable extension.
Of course
I sad his recent transactions are bad. You can’t fall hard if you weren’t up high to begin with.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Feb 25, 2010 3:39 PM PST up reply actions
Draft
You can’t pick and choose his draft picks and say he’s done great. You have to look at everything. He drafted Rodney White with the 9th pick the same year he drafted Okur 37th. Who is Rodney White, you ask? Exactly. I think he was in camp with the Clippers a couple of years ago. He also drafted Mateen Cleaves 14, in addition to the Darko pick. So if he can just stay out of the lottery, he’s great. He’s oh for three on lottery picks, with three major busts.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Feb 25, 2010 3:56 PM PST up reply actions
He won a championship without a superstar
’nuff said
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Weirdest series ever
Kobe went nuts and starting chucking everything instead of dumping it into Shaq would could score at will.
by Michael White on Feb 25, 2010 4:01 PM PST up reply actions
That's not weird
And that’s not Kobe going nuts. That’s Kobe being Kobe.
Look at last night’s game vs. the Mavs. Bynum was getting whatever he wanted against the Mavs. Yet he got 8 shots (hitting 5), Pau got 9 (also hitting 5) while Kobe goes 9-23.
That’s Kobe’s MO – He’d clearly rather lose than not take a back seat and do what’s best for the team.
Win some lose some
He did make some bad ones even then. Actually the Rodney White one looks bad but he was actually being considered by MJ as the first overall pick at some point, makes Kwame look like a better pick now. Was Cleaves really a bust, he was the 14th pick in the draft and he did play in the NBA for 9 years. They traded him for Jon Barry and a 1st round pick, that’s more than we got for Al Thornton for example.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Feb 25, 2010 5:23 PM PST up reply actions
I kind of remember
that Dumars’ first trade as GM was so bad that the league called it off. Anybody else remember something like that?
Cleaves
14 picks are not locks, but yes, I’d call Cleaves a bust. Incidentally, he only played 6 years. And he played fewer that 600 minutes in the final five years of his career. Detroit gave him a chance as a local hero, and then he was a glorified cheerleader the rest of his career. Dumars parlayed him into Jon Barry and Carlos Delfino – better than nothing, I guess.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Feb 25, 2010 6:14 PM PST up reply actions
Here's a list of 14th picks since 2000 (When Cleaves was drafted)
Looks like you are right, though a few had overall shorter careers. Whatever happened to McCants… he’s actually a pretty good scorer off the bench. If he would almost be a 20ppg scorer if he played starter minutes.
2001 – Troy Murphy
2002 – Fred Jones
2003 – Luke Ridnour
2004 – Kris Humphries
2005 – Rashad McCants
2006 – Ronnie Brewer
2007 – Al Thornton
2008 – Anthony Randolph
2009 – Earl Clark
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Feb 25, 2010 9:40 PM PST up reply actions
Very interesting
14 picks aren’t so terrible for being so far down the list.
It would be an interesting study to find out which pick # has had the most players stick.
Bui I’m not up to it.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Did Maya appreciate the screaming?
Welcome back to the US, where we take or sports commentary seriosly!
I generally agree that he lucked into some things
but the fact is he put together a successful roster that was extremetly competeitve for the better part of a decade. And now he is a disaster, proving that he was probably overrated in the first place.
He’s heading for Isiah territory.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
I was at the game
and was very surprised with Drew Gooden. The way he played helps ease the pain of Camby the Blazer. Gooden shot like 6 freethrows before the game was 6 mins old I think. His 3point play early was very nice too. If you see some replays you can see me behind the basket! haha
With that said about Gooden, I was disappointed to not see Craig Smith play a lot this game (I even wore my Mobely jersey! Ha, get it?). But the way Gooden was playing, I can’t justify putting in Craig Smith at that cost. Gooden did have some foul trouble, and each time he got a foul he instantly went to the bench, DJ (or sometimes Outlaw) wasn’t off the yet bench and he was making is way to his seat, shaking his head.
Overall synopsis of the game, Clippers couldn’t shoot in the first half, Detroit couldn’t shoot in the second half. Oh and the block at the other end was monster, Butler was in on that one too. Good D down the stretch for the Clippers. (TAKE THAT PRINCE.)
If anyone else was at the game, during half time they had Long Beach NJB play (kids). There was a TINY girl (#11) I’d say not even 3 feet tall, but she was CROSSING OVER KIDS SICK! Reminded me of Muggsy or Boykins with some Rafer “Skip to my Lou” Alston street cross overs. I wonder if there’s any video on it…
the most important thing in that recap was your last line
I hope we don’t just spend it cuz we got it this offseason. Kinda doubt the team will though. Sterling has always said he will pay top dollar for top players but won’t overpay a journeyman or avg player (and no baron comments, please). Let’s hope he holds to that. If we get spurned by stars and just end up with a deep roster full of solid players, so be it.
by Joe Wolf's Mullet on Feb 25, 2010 11:46 AM PST via mobile reply actions
After all of MDSr.'s moves...
It’s safe to assume he’s not going to throw a max contract at a second or third tier player. Why give Rudy Gay a gaint deal when Outlaw and the rest of the bench can be had for much cheaper?
No matter what some people think, Dunleavy is no fool.
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's doing down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on Feb 25, 2010 12:04 PM PST reply actions
Pistons ban shoes
MILPH went down this road last night…i found it very interesting that the team would ban the shoes. I am sure Nike gave them a different type because the tv shots showed Nikes. Yahoo’s BDL clears it up even more...
Roger Sterling: To my knees, Don. They're bringing to my knees!"
What a game ugly as hell but a W
With this win if we can grab 5 more wins in a row we are looking at something interestinjg until then it’s shining crap season
after the second win i decide to desmoralize mysellf by going to see the standings
turns put we are ‘just’ 7 games away from the 8th spot in the losses, who knows maybe a very good streak (a la GS in 2007) and a bad one from portland…..naa just wishful thinking
Caption for the photo above
With #10, Eric Gordon in the background… #1 Baron Davis pushes away #0 Drew Gooden saying “Get away from me, we aint number 10!!”

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