After LeBron, what are our options?
by MTM22 on Feb 27, 2010 3:21 PM PST
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The Clippers will have a lot of options this summer, with of course the signing of league MVP LeBron James being the first choice. After that, opinions differ on what the the team should do with its cap space. This post is all about what plan B should be.
B1 Spend most of the cap space on Rudy Gay or Joe Johnson. Although Johnson would be good now, I don't see the team giving him 20mil when he's 34 years old. Rudy Gay is not worth the max or even close to it, but age is on his side as he would be signed through his prime on a 5 year deal.
B2 Resign the core bench and use the MLE to sign veterans like Marcus Camby and Ray Allen.
B3 Resign the core bench and try to make a trade for the heavily paid Paul Pierce or Andre Iguodala. This option is both difficult and unlikely because you either need a third team to complete the deal or you need to give up draft picks and either Baron or Kaman.
B4 Resign part of the core bench and take a gamble with the injury prone Tracy McGrady or Manu Ginobli
B5 Resign the bench to expiring contracts and look towards the summer of 2011.
This summer will greatly affect the franchise for many years to come so it's a good thing the team has many options.
Remember to leave a comment if you disagree or think I missed something.
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How would AI and BD work?
Iggy likes to handle the ball, and well Baron doesn’t do anything on the offensive end of the floor when he doesnt have the ball. Teams could sag off of BD and then Iggy’s driving lanes and Griffin and Kaman’s post ups would also suffer b/c of double teams.
HVYDRT007-"EJ's value is diminishing Game By Game"
Thanks for making my day HVYDRT, lmao!
It could work
Baron played his best with Stephen Jackson who handles the ball alot like iggy
One BIG problem
Baron isn’t that same Baron Davis. Baron is much like Allen Iverson now, and well Iggy and Iverson isn’t working out so good is it?
HVYDRT007-"EJ's value is diminishing Game By Game"
Thanks for making my day HVYDRT, lmao!
Baron is nowhere near Allen Iverson
he’s not causing waves in the locker room for starters and he still goes to practices. Plus he shoots way less than AI.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Feb 28, 2010 9:20 PM PST up reply actions
I don't agree
I still think Baron can play at a very high level. He proved that at the beginning of this season, he just seems to have motivation issues that hold him back.
Heck no!
This would not help our team. I am a fan of these two players, but we need young talent. We are starting to see that singing Baron to his contract was a mistake. I highly doubt the Clipper want to add two more aging veterans to the mix.
HVYDRT007-"EJ's value is diminishing Game By Game"
Thanks for making my day HVYDRT, lmao!
I think
if LBJ isn’t interested, we should at least make an offer to Dwayne Wade.
At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.
Could we go the route of
a sign and trade with Miami, Wade for Gordon and our draft pick. Although one problem with bringing in Wade is what does Baron do. Wade is not a PG but he usually handles the ball most of the possession which is currently what Baron does for us. So if we sign Wade what does Baron do in the offense.
" Baron for the win, BINGO!!!! The Clipers Win, The Clippers win!!! "
Ralph Lawler
Would MIA say no...
to a Sign and Trade of Wade for Baron, EJ, and a Number One Pick? That’s pretty solid, and if Wade makes it known he’s not coming back, we could clean up. We’d still have enough capspace for LeBron as well….
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's doing down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on Feb 28, 2010 9:12 AM PST up reply actions
well if we got the #1 pick I would not do that trade
you don’t trade away your chance at John Wall. And I don’t think that Lebron will sign anywhere with another FA I think that he doesn’t want to share the spotlight with another superstar.
" Baron for the win, BINGO!!!! The Clipers Win, The Clippers win!!! "
Ralph Lawler
by bestclipfan on Feb 28, 2010 10:02 AM PST up reply actions
He would sign with another superstar
but probably not Wade. I think they realize their respective legacies are better off without playing on the same team. I think either would welcome a big like Chris Bosh, Amare or Boozer on their teams though.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Feb 28, 2010 4:24 PM PST up reply actions
yeah if Lebron does sign with another super star
it would have to be one that doesn’t need the ball often which would make Wade a no go but I could definitely see him signing somewhere with Bosh.
" Baron for the win, BINGO!!!! The Clipers Win, The Clippers win!!! "
Ralph Lawler
By Number One Pick I meant First-Round pick.
No way would I trade EJ AND Wall for Wade.
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's doing down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on Mar 1, 2010 1:01 PM PST up reply actions
ok thats what I thought you meant
" Baron for the win, BINGO!!!! The Clipers Win, The Clippers win!!! "
Ralph Lawler
If Wade where to go anywhere why no his hometown of Chicago, who has the money to bring him in.
Why here….
by dulciusEXasperis on Feb 28, 2010 4:52 PM PST up reply actions
Those are my thought too
Wade is either going to stay in Miami (if they get a PF) or he is going to play SG in Chicago.
HVYDRT007-"EJ's value is diminishing Game By Game"
Thanks for making my day HVYDRT, lmao!
You would just give up on 21 year old EJ!?
Wade is currently 28 years old. He is turnover prone and he is a very below average 3 point shooter. There is no denying that he is a top 10 NBA player, but he has had injury problems that have kept him out for long periods of time.
HVYDRT007-"EJ's value is diminishing Game By Game"
Thanks for making my day HVYDRT, lmao!
Wade is a superstar and has a ring
and as much as I love EJ; and I do love EJ a lot, EJ will not probably ever get as good as Wade is. Although I am still tentative on anything involving Wade because I am not sure what we would do with Baron. Unless we can get rid of Baron then I would say no to Wade.
" Baron for the win, BINGO!!!! The Clipers Win, The Clippers win!!! "
Ralph Lawler
Wade had Shaq, Gary Payton, Alonzo Mourning, Antoine Walker, Pat Riley, etc...
Wade is a top 10 player in the NBA, but I can’t see the Clippers moving EJ. He is so young and has so much talent.
HVYDRT007-"EJ's value is diminishing Game By Game"
Thanks for making my day HVYDRT, lmao!
My Plan B
would be to go after DWade. B2 would be Bosh, even though we have Griffin; because Bosh is a known quantity and has never suffered a season ending injury. My B3 would be your B1, and so on.
"Excellence...is not an act, but a habit" Aristotle
If we get Wade....
….. we’re trading Gordon and Baron.
Which would
technically give us enough money to sign Lebron as well. I’m good with that.
Wade + $16.5 Mil cap space >>>> Baron + Gordon
At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.
why gordon
we could play wade and gordon, a sf we get (maybe rudy gay), kaman, griffin
would you play Gordon at pg or Sg?
And also that still begs the question of how do you get rid of Baron.
" Baron for the win, BINGO!!!! The Clipers Win, The Clippers win!!! "
Ralph Lawler
After LeBron...
I’d probably just go about re-signing our own guys. This would give us some consistency and a team with quality depth.
Baron / Blake
Gordon / Butler
Outlaw / Draft Pick
Griffin / Smith
Kaman / DJ
Give Brown or Collins the QO if it makes a difference in us getting the MLE or not.
With the MLE, I’d go after a veteran, 3 point specialist or defender (e.g. Camby, Mike Miller, Childress, Morrow or a combination of Azuibuike, Singleton, Ross type players to fill out the roster).
You have to inquire about Wade, but in all likelihood, he’s staying in Miami or going back home to Chicago. Miami can pick up another MAX FA, and he’s have Rose & Noah in Chicago. He’d likely have a better running mate (2nd option) in both of those locations than he would have here.
I’d look at Iguodala once again. Philly wanted to move him with Dalembert this season, but maybe they change their tunes and try to move him at the trading deadline since he is an expiring contract. If we could get Iggy for a TPE and future draft picks, then I’d probably do that.
For almost 2 years, Joe Johnson looked like a great way to go. At this point, I’m concerned about his age and the mileage that he has racked up. I’m not sure how good of a team we’d be with picking him up and having a skeleton crew for a bench. Gay is a decent player that could help, but the problem is that he is likely to be vastly overpaid for what he’ll actually bring to the team. It would all depend on the asking price. Memphis will have to make a decision on Ronnie Brewer as well, so we’d need to keep an eye on that situation as well if we pursued Gay.
You'd pay the MLE for those guys?
I don’t think any of them are worth it, not this year. Though I like the rest of your plan. Gay is an RFA and I think too many teams are looking at him as a consolation prize. He’ll be too expensive for what he is.
I like your angle on Iguadola but I don’t know what a TPE is… a trade exception? Would you give up the Minny pick? (I’d rather give up one of our own.)
Agree on Joe Johnson… not for the max and not worth a long deal. MDSr. won’t go there.
Camby, Miller & Childress are the guys that I would outright give it to.
Morrow would be questionable, because he is young and not exactly proven, but he is one of the best shooters in the league. The other guys (Singleton, Ross, Azuibuike type players) would get a small fraction of it in a situation where 3 or so guys are splitting the $5.4M (or whatever the MLE ends up at). It wouldn’t necessarily be those players, but players that can provide what they can at a reasonable price.
The available list of free-agents that are actually available can be found here. Players like Ray Allen, Manu Ginobili and McGrady are players that I wouldn’t expect to be available to us for the MLE. Their teams will likely retain them. If they accept the MLE, they’d likely do so with a contender.
That’s right. A TPE is a Traded Player Exception. We would be basically giving Philly a trade exception for the amount of Iggy’s contract.
by Lawler 4ever on Feb 28, 2010 2:09 PM PST up reply actions
Morrow would end up sucking because he won't play against the Clippers
He’d light it up in practice though…
Oh, wait...
“Give Brown or Collins the QO if it makes a difference in us getting the MLE or not.” That’s very smart but does that mean you have to sign those guys later? As I recall they gave Korolev a QO, then cut him. Does he get paid? Does he count against the cap? How does that work?
He would get paid if he accepted the QO and signed nowhere else.
Basically it would make them Restricted Free Agents that we could match if someone offers them a contract. If not then we’d have them for the season. Brown’s is just over a million, while Collins’ is a lot steeper at $2.8M. Then they would become unrestricted free-agents in the summer of 2011.
by Lawler 4ever on Feb 28, 2010 2:16 PM PST up reply actions
Hhmmmm
I think we have 61 million on the cap next year if we choose not to renounce any of our guys. I think we could renounce a few of the guys (Mardy for sure, he’s not worth 2.8 million) and still be over the cap enough to use the MLE.
I think Blake, Outlaw and Gooden are all worth around the MLE so they will have other suitors, Rhino is due for a raise in the 3-4 million range per year, Butler is also worth around 2-3 million per year. So if we stand pat with the new guys, bring in our lottery pick and a healthy Blake Griffin that could be our team next year. That put us a little bit ahead of where we came in last year and we’d be a low playoff seed if our health permitted (big if).
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Feb 28, 2010 4:32 PM PST up reply actions
Really CC?
You’re putting Blake, Outlaw, Gooden at the 5M+ level? That’s what Artest got last year. I just don’t see it. I think they’ll be at the 4-5 for three years. You squeeze in another good vet with the difference.
I do?
Well let’s see… Blake is making 5 million this year, Gooden 4.5 million and Outlaw 4 million. Um so I think that’s been the market rate. Tons of team with cap space this year so these guys will have some suitors. I think Outlaw can get the MLE from some teams, he’s the youngest and since he’s never been a full-time starter has the most upside. With Blake and Gooden I think they will take less than the MLE if they get additional years since this is their last decent sized contract (they are 30 and 28 respectively).
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Feb 28, 2010 9:22 PM PST up reply actions
Not far off...
I’m not sure the current salaries matter much. The NBA economy is down and dropping. But you’re right, there are a lot of teams with cap space. Maybe that makes up the difference.
So far, I don’t see much difference between Outlaw and Butler. Outlaw’s bigger, younger… but the MLE? He’s not as good as Ariza, who got the MLE for five years.
Maybe you go to four years for Blake but I don’t think a backup pg gets over 5M. Gooden seems like a redundant piece unless you don’t think Griffin’s going to stay healthy.
Outlaw
Outlaw is a better rebounder and more active and versatile scorer than Butler. He’s not miles better but it is discernible.
I’m not a huge fan of giving a 30 year old point guard a longer term deal but Blake’s game does seem to be one that won’t be affected by age. Gooden is a good backup 4/5, he is a competent PF and he could play C for a small ball lineup.
I would think solid citizens like Blake, Gooden and Outlaw will get some reasonable deals and interest from teams and get similar deals to the ones they had.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Mar 1, 2010 12:19 PM PST up reply actions
I was thinking too hard.
and I forgot about our TPE’s. Our Free Agent’s cap holds can range anywhere from 130-200% of their 2009-10 salary depending on their bird rights (Larry, Early, Non, etc.)
We have $33.53M Committed salary to Baron, Gordon, Griffin, Kaman and DJ (unguaranteed).
10th Pick is approximately $1.87M
Trade Exceptions (according to ESPN’s Trade Machine):
$3.355M (Randolph)
$1.55M (Camby)
$1.06M (Richardson)
Other Exceptions
~$5.8M (Mid Level)
$2.08M (Bi-Annual)
= $49,243, 349.
Add in the cap holds to our free-agents and we are well over the cap.
So totally forget what I said about Collins LOL.
Now I'm totally confused.
You’re adding the exceptions to our salary totals? Don’t the MLE and the BLE count only if you’re already over the cap? And why do the TPE’s count against the cap?
It is confusing.
What is included in team’s salaries
How much do free agents count against the cap
The exceptions are included in team salary even when we are “theoretically” under the cap. In order to free up the cap space, these exceptions must be renounced. Here is a good read on exceptions and how they are included in a team’s salary.
by Lawler 4ever on Mar 2, 2010 11:20 AM PST up reply actions
Thanks for the links. So, in order to sign LeBron (or any max FA)...
…we have to renounce everything, including all our exceptions. Which is why the MLE and the BAE will not be available. (Everytime I think I have a handle on this, I lose it again, or there’s a wrinkle I didn’t understand.)
Regarding Bird rights: I thought the only advantage was the extra year (the sixth?). Which is probably insignificant for our FA’s. But it also means (if we haven’t renounced them) that we can go over the cap in order to sign them… and that’s the real value in trading for Blake, Outlaw, and Gooden now. So, if we don’t sign a big fish and don’t renounce anything or anyone we can sign all our free agents, still have our MLE and BAE, and have all our trade exceptions in place. Is that right? (When do the TPE’s expire?)
That's Exactly Right!!!
The TPE’s expire exactly one year after they were acquired.
$3,355,000 (Zach Randolph) July 19th, 2010
$1,060,000 (Quentin Richardson) July 20th, 2010
$1,550,000 (Marcus Camby) should be February 16th, 2011
The link above doesn’t seem to be totally up to date, but it does list the first two exceptions..
Okay one more question regarding the TPE's...
How are they valuable? Can you use them to balance trades but only to balance trades? In other words, can I trade them, all or in part for a player. Say I want Trevor Ariza and Houston agrees. Can I send them all 3 of my TPE’s for his roughly 6M salary? How about individually for lower-priced players?
No...
The separate trade exceptions cannot be combined.
"look, you can find any coach you want, bring him in here and run the situation. But I don't think they are going to do as good a job as I do." -Mike Dunleavy Sr.
by CLiPPz WeRD 12 on Mar 2, 2010 5:16 PM PST up reply actions
Great questions here
Here’s another one (you can judge if it’s great or not)
If we decide to sign Childress for much less than max, couldn’t we, theoretically speaking, renounce not all but merely enough of our free agents in order to clear enough cap space. Once we sign Childress, then, couldn’t we resign our remaining free agents for even more than their cap holds, using their Bird rights to go over the cap?
Or more simply, and more relevantly, do we have to renounce everybody in order to enter the free agent market at all? (If you can’t, that seems silly, but if you can, then the conundrum above seems to arise).
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
Sorry, rephrase:
(If you have to renounce everybody, that seems silly, but if don’t…)
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
If I'm interpreting the rules correctly...
it would be possible to clear up cap space by renouncing a few guys and then going over the cap by using our bird rights.
The problem is that the cap holds are going to exceed what the players were actually paid during the 09-10 season.
It would seem that Outlaw, Blake, Smith & Butler would have a hold of 200% of their 09-10 salary.
Gooden would have a hold of 130% of his 09-10 salary.
Each player is currently making between $4-5M (Butler is just under $4M).
by Lawler 4ever on Mar 4, 2010 12:38 AM PST up reply actions
I will burn every piece of Clippers merch I own
if we do your plan B4. Why would we want injury prone players when that has been a major issue for us the last three years? It’s not like we have the Suns’ training staff; we have Jasen F’ing Powell, a man whose incompetence is only surpassed by that of our former head coach.
by Highbury Library on Feb 28, 2010 9:08 AM PST reply actions
A one year incentized deal
for one of those guys could be a good find. Actually aside from our number one draft pick our guys have been pretty healthy this year (knock on wood).
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Feb 28, 2010 4:44 PM PST up reply actions
Question
Not sure this is the right thread. How would BD and the King play together? The King runs the offense and needs three point shooters around him like he has in Cleveland. Is BD a good enough three point shooter ?
The lineup would be:
Kaman
BG
The King
EJ
BD
Not sure that is the greatest lineup given that the King would be dominating the ball. Or would the King play differently with the Clippers?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
I think you're right
BD will present a problem, unless he can improve on his 3 point shooting like he did with his free throw shooting. But I think Baron will have a problem playing off the ball every night. Maybe he has to be traded if we get Lebron. I think if he is traded we would have to throw in some future picks to sweeten the deal.
"Excellence...is not an act, but a habit" Aristotle
by Cliptomaniac on Mar 1, 2010 11:24 AM PST up reply actions
My guess is his 3pt shooting would improve
Primarily because everyone else who has played with LBJ has improved substantially. I’m guessing its because of the open looks.
Mo Williams went from a then-career best 38% to 43% from 3pt since moving to the Cavs.
Delonte West went from 36% to 38%
Anthony Parker is up to a career high 45% now
So if Baron could become a halfway decent shooter (33-35% range) I think he’d be okay. He would just need to focus on getting to the basket, playing good D and making wide open jumpers.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Mar 1, 2010 12:25 PM PST up reply actions
WHERE IS GERALD GREEN?
Thinking of options and and developing players what happen to Gerald Green??? He’s still young with a major upside in talent…what happen to him>>>
I am thinking we should trade our lottery pick and minnys pick to move up and select this Evan Turner kid out of Ohio State
We wouldnt have to fork over millions of dollars and we can use the cap space to sign excellent back ups. Any thoughts?
I'd love for us to get a top 2 pick in this draft. Evan Turner is the player I want.
What would be sweet is if got the number 1 and we got number 2. We draft Turner and try to pull off a deal centered around Minny’s pick for Rubio’s rights.
by Lawler 4ever on Mar 5, 2010 12:35 AM PST up reply actions
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