Dunleavy Out As Coach - I Did Not See That Coming
by Steve Perrin on Feb 4, 2010 5:44 PM PST
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PrintAs I mentioned in my Hawks recap last night, I'm sick. In fact, I was in bed asleep most of the day. I actually heard the news from the ClipperWidow, who heard it on NPR. So that's a first - she knew important Clipper news before I did. Thanks to Seth (the artist formerly known as Phoenix Stan) for getting the news up on the front page while I lay in bed.
So here are the facts. Mike Dunleavy Sr. is no longer the coach of the Clippers, but he remains the General Manager. Assistant Coach Kim Hughes is stepping in as the interim coach for the rest of the season (that's 33 games). The news was announced by the Clippers today including prepared statements from MDsr.
This saga has of course been long and drawn out. During the 07-08 season in which Elton Brand was hurt, the Clippers won only 23 games, which would have gotten many coaches fired. But the massive number of games lost to injury was viewed as a mitigating factor, a decision I supported at the time.
Then, when that 23 win season was followed up with a 19 win season, it became a major issue. The Clippers retained Dunleavy as head coach far longer than almost any franchise in NBA history had in similar circumstances. The reasoning once again focused on the team's injury problems, but frankly the excuse had long since worn thin. For one thing, the team did not suffer nearly as many injuries last season as it did the season before. For another, it mostly played lackluster and uninspired basketball even when healthy.
I wrote a lot about the Clippers' need to move forward with a new coach last year. When it didn't happen, and when Blake Griffin ended up missing the entire season this year, I assumed he was safe for the rest of this season at least. The team was performing better on the court (they've already surpassed last season's win total) and there were plenty of injury excuses still - if he'd remained coach before, I assumed he'd remain coach through this year.
So for a move to occur now, while the team has a semi-respectable .429 winning percentage, is certainly a surprise. The losses in New Jersey, Minnesota and Cleveland over the last eight days were embarrassing to be certain - but the injury excuse card was readily available, with Blake Griffin out for the season, Marcus Camby hurt during the Nets game, and Chris Kaman missing the next two. So if this is a case of Dunleavy being forced out, it's hard to figure. Why now?
Of course, if you take the announcement at face value, Dunleavy wasn't forced out at all. Rather, GMMDsr is merely relieving CMDsr of his duties so GMMDsr can concentrate on basketball operations. This has of course been a possible face-saving exit strategy throughout this ordeal. In fact, in an interesting coincidence, I suggested this exact scenario (Dunleavy relinguishes the coaching reigns while remaining GM, Hughes takes over on an interim basis) a year ago tomorrow, Feb. 5, 2009. For what it's worth, I started floating the idea in December 2008.
None of this occurs in a vacuum. Dunleavy has the rest of this season and all of the next remaining on his 2006 contract extension. (Surely among the worst contract extensions in the history of the NBA - he went from 47 wins in the season before he got the extension, to 40 wins in the final year of his old contract after the extension had been signed but before it had kicked in, to 23 wins in the first year of the contract, to 19 wins in the second year, to relieved of his duties in the third year.) He's pulling down about $5M per season on that deal, and the conventional wisdom has always been that injuries and patience were really just convenient excuses for Donald Sterling to avoid firing his coach and paying him $5M to do nothing. Of course, by retaining GMMDsr and promoting Hughes to the first chair, Sterling avoids the replacement cost of hiring a new coach and GM. He is paying exactly the same amount the rest of the season for a general manager and a coach. Elegant.
One assumes that some newly visible fissures between Dunleavy and Baron Davis were at least part of the timing. After clashing for most of last season, the coach and the point guard made a big deal about being on the same page this year. But bad losses to last place teams have a way of bringing simmering tensions to the surface. After the losses in New Jersey and Minnesota, Baron made comments about not playing with "freedom" and that the team needed to be more "free-flowing". The next day, the LA Times' Ben Bolch quoted a defensive sounding Dunleavy saying "None of those [free-flowing] teams have ever gone past the first round [of the playoffs]". A fanpost by Citizen Nelsan about the situation looks pretty prescient today.
So where does this all leave us?
Again, if we are to take the announcement at face value, you can assume that the Clippers will be actively trying to improve their roster over the next six months. Face-saving exit strategy or not, it's actually true that there are a lot of things on the horizon for a GM to be thinking about. As MDsr said in the press release:
I’ve come to the conclusion that this is the ideal time for me to direct my efforts toward the many personnel opportunities that lie before us, such as the trade market, the Draft and the free agent process. We fully expect to be active and productive on all those fronts.
The fluctuations in the salary cap estimates over the last year have been difficult to follow, and the simple fact is that no one knows exactly what the cap is going to be when LeBron and others hit the market in July. But with arena attendance not off as much as previously predicted, the Clippers are suddenly within spitting distance of an actual max offer to LeBron (or Wade or Bosh). With both of them playing well and neither being particularly easy to move, it seems likely that the big contracts, Chris Kaman and Baron Davis, aren't going anywhere. But by moving either Al Thornton or Sebastian Telfair (or both), the Clippers can actually be in a position to make a legitimate offer - something that few other teams can actually do.
Or perhaps GMMDsr will use some of his many, many trade chips (Marcus Camby, a decent sized trade exception, several other expiring contracts, a future first round pick from the Wolves) to make a big move now and pre-empt the summer of 2010. Can he land a name on the level of LeBron or Wade? Certainly not - of course few names are on that level. But there's little doubt that several former All Stars could be had for the right price this month. Do the Clippers really want Caron Butler or Josh Howard or Richard Jefferson? I'm not convinced, but if they could be had cheaply enough, it might be the right move.
The point is, there is a lot for a GM to look at, and it's hard to do that while diagramming plays.
What becomes of the head coaching position? Interim coaches rarely get the pre-fix removed from their titles - although Scotty Brooks managed to do it in Oklahoma City. The Clippers might suddenly look like a pretty cherry job this summer, with a solid unit in place and Blake Griffin and possibly a high-priced free agent on the way. It's interesting that they handed the reigns to Hughes - he was the logical choice last season, but with another assistant on the staff who happens to have head coaching experience, it's a little surprising that they went with Hughes instead of John Lucas. I like Hughes, and I think he has the type of personality that might get a temporary boost out of the players during the remaining 33 games. But it's impossible to know how might perform as an NBA head coach over the long haul. Lucas has hinted this season that he'd like another crack at a head coaching gig, and one assumes he'll be under consideration this summer. Will the Clippers go after a high profile coach while paying their GM $5M? Will a high profile coach want the job, given the likelihood that GMMDsr will be looking over their shoulder? Then there is the potential impact of a coaching search on the free agent market. Does LeBron's high school coach need a job? Maybe the Clippers could pull an Ed Manning.
Obviously we'll be talking about this for weeks to come.
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High Profile Coach
This is my biggest concern and why I remain somewhat disappointed that Dun was not removed completely. Will a coach like Jeff Van Gundy come here knowing that Dunleavy will be right over his shoulder? I would wonder if I was going to be constantly second guessed by a guy who clearly considers himself a top coach.
Or is this an Al Davis situation where Dun doesn’t even want a high profile coach and would prefer keeping a guy like Hughes in place as a virtual figurehead who does Dunleavy’s bidding?
My hope is that they’re keeping Dun around because having to find a new coach and a new GM mid-season may cause a lot of disruption and threatens to leave the team rudderless going into a very important off-season.
Maybe the idea is to let Dun run things under close supervision until the summer when they can go out and get a whole new GM/coach regime in place.
Maybe
Dunleavy is a strong personality for sure and it can’t be appealing to a coach to have the former coach sitting in the office next door. The most recent example would be SVG and Pat Riley, and that didn’t work out so well for Stan. Fortunately for him, he’s done OK in his next gig.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
Big difference though between SVG and Riley
For one SVG was on his first coaching job while Riley is one of the greatest coaches ever. Another is Dunleavy has nowhere near the clout a Riley has, I doubt he’ll even have too much input in hiring the next head coach.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Feb 5, 2010 12:48 AM PST up reply actions
I'm starting to wonder
Initially I was inclined to believe that the team was just allowing Dun to save face to respect what he’s done for the franchise. But hearing him on the radio and doing interviews makes me wonder if this is actually the arrangement they think is best.
Maybe Dun is actually going to run the front office for the rest of his contract. I can see it. I don’t agree with it, but like others have said, Sterling doesn’t want to pay someone $5 mil to sit at home. Plus, Dun’s been competent enough (not good, just not particularly bad) so that it’s reasonable to allow him to stay as GM.
I haven't heard the radio interviews, but
I find that difficult to believe. Maybe they can keep him around to fetch coffee. He’s a very prideful guy and likely went out of his way to show us that this wasn’t a firing. Which it was. Remember how much he wanted to prove that EB screwed him (with texts no one ever saw).
Remember, DTS continued to pay Elgin Baylor while MDSr was running the team. There’s a pattern there.
The more interesting question I think, and one that doesn’t seem to be addressed, is who actually was involved in pushing him out. DTS wouldn’t have done this alone and wouldn’t have done it without getting advice somewhere. I suspect that John Lucas pushed it along.
In any event, our Clippers suddenly have new life. I would not have extended him but I certainly would have dumped him for cause after he publicly clashed with DTS and after the ridiculous 06-07 season. His actions then left no doubt that he would never again be successful as a Clippers coach.
Finally.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Feb 5, 2010 6:25 AM PST up reply actions
Heisler
Heisler says in the LAT that the last year of his contract is set to be paid out over the next two years. That puts his salary (5 mil split into two halves) about the same as Mitch Kupchak’s.
Texts
People saw the texts. I did not see them, but I have spoken directly to people who saw the texts.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Feb 5, 2010 10:38 AM PST up reply actions
objection - hearsay
In addition, and I don’t want to rehash everything here, but the main issue is that he told us all that he was just negotiating as coach when in reality he was the gm. That was an attempt to make EB look worse in our eyes based on falsehoods. In other words he lied to us. Not an honorable person imo.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Feb 5, 2010 10:45 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Objection sustained counselor
I approve of this type of commenting. A few times I have wanted to object on the basis of improper foundation.
by Michael White on Feb 5, 2010 10:46 AM PST up reply actions
Lucky for us all MDSr. scewed up the Brand deal
EB sucks, and the Clips ended up with Blake Griffin.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
It makes sense for Dunleavy to remain as GM
…because there isn’t another basketball guy in the organization. As bad as Elgin was, he was at least a basketball guy and a great player back in the day. IRemember it was Elgin who brought Dunleavy in. ’m not sure if Andy Roeser has ever dribbled a ball in his life. Letting Roeser and DTS conduct a search for a new Clippers coach and GM can be gruesome. Sterling surrounds himself with Yes men in his real estate empire, which works well there, but probably not in running a professional basketball organization.
Agreed
That’s probably why they needed him. As you said, he’s the only basketball guy left in the org.
Which is why I never liked the whole head coach/GM dual role. You need more than one guy who knows what he’s doing in the franchise.
You know you're in trouble when
MDSr is “the only basketball guy left in the org”
Why people continue to think he knows what he’s doing boggles the mind.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Feb 5, 2010 6:26 AM PST up reply actions
Heisler again
Article talks about the way he overturned the Clips roster, just Kaman left from team that had Cassell, FElton, etc.
Not sure I get that, Jax...
“Why people continue to think he knows what he’s doing boggles the mind.” Huh? I understand everyone’s gripe with him as coach… but here he actually seems to have done the right thing. The Clippers needed a change, AND they need continued stability. What’s happening seems like the best option. And whether he was pushed or jumped doesn’t really matter.
I guess I’m never gonna understand why people can’t see what remarkable changes MDSr’s wrought from a historical perspective. He is, by far, the best basketball mind the Clippers have ever had AND he caused Donald Sterling to act like a responsible owner. They build monuments for people who’ve done far less.
hes done some good things but
He’s sub .400 for six years plus. And he’s a terrible coach who should have been fired long ago.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Feb 5, 2010 10:48 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
I suspect that he was removed completely - he might remain a figurehead ala Baylor for a while
Which is ironic given that he participated in the Baylor charade.
Hughes will run the team. MDSr is OUT. Finally.
Best Clipper move in a long time.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Feb 4, 2010 9:51 PM PST up reply actions
there you are...
i have yet to see an indepth post from John R on this topic…
Roger Sterling: To my knees, Don. They're bringing to my knees!"
by Lawler's Law on Feb 4, 2010 10:13 PM PST up reply actions
Yes, I'm enjoying the moment ;-)
A new beginning
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Feb 5, 2010 6:27 AM PST up reply actions
No indepth post required at this point
Its what happens next that matters.
Congrats boys, DTS is running your franchise now.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Dts was running it anyway John
We still have MDsr as GM so how has the power at the top changed much?
As much as i wanted him gone as coach I’d be more than happy if he stayed as GM
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Feb 5, 2010 10:45 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
I knew that was the direction you'd go
And I don’t blame you. After every loss people got to pin it on Dunleavy. Now after every loss you get to ask who is to blame.
by Michael White on Feb 5, 2010 10:48 AM PST up reply actions
LOL
DTS couldn’t do mich worse as coach.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Feb 5, 2010 10:49 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Who is talking about coach?
Its your point that GMDSr is out as well. If true, then its about DTS running the whole show.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
A good decision
One wonders why he even bothered to go on the road trip if this was being tossed around. Perhaps Hughes will prove a worthy head coach.
In the meantime, I would certainly welcome the right roster move at this point. Camby could be a great fit for a lot of contenders, and his stock is high right now. Unless he has designs on returning to next year’s Clippers, it may be wise to move him. Butler, Howard and Jefferson would all fit.
As far as the summer sweepstakes, I really don’t see LeBron or Wade in play. I predict that LeBron will stay in Cleveland and Wade will only leave Miami if it is for Chicago. Bosh will team up with one of them (unless they team up together in NY). What the Clippers need is another SF with range. Joe Johnson should be the target.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
JJ is in the same boat
Why would he leave Atlanta? The team is an up and coming contender where he’s the unquestioned leader. Moreover, with the new CBA looming, he’ll be looking for the biggest payday possible, and Atlanta gives him that.
I’d love JJ on this team but he’s only marginally more likely than a Lebron or a Wade. He’s not leaving a contending eastern conference team for a perennial loser.
Therein lies the problem for all the top FA’s. Despite what we want to think, nobody sees the Clips as a place to go win. Only Lebron would have the balls to want to come play in Kobe’s back yard.
The Suns were an up and comer when....
he left them for a dismal Atlanta team. JJ said that he was going to whomever wanted to pay him the most—- got to love that he is truthful—- most players lie
He wanted his own team
Which is why I made the point that he likes being Atlanta’s unquestioned leader.
It’s not just that the Hawks are up and coming. It’s that they’re his team and they can offer him the most money.
No way he leaves that for the Clippers.
It’s worth it to see if Lebron might make the jump. Even if there’s a very little chance. You don’t get even a 1% chance at a Lebron James many times. This summer, the Clips have a shot…even if it’s an outside one. You don’t give up that chance for a Caron Butler type player. Sure if Denver calls offering Melo, you make that trade. But barring that, you wait for Lebron.
Above average SFs will be available later on.
JJ=Boring..we need a marquee player
DTS aint putting out for a guy with a forgettable name..don’t care how good he was 3 years ago..
I'll bet you LeBron's 2011 salary that he doesn't end up here
nor Wade.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Well-timed
“As the Clipper World (Slowly) Turns”—that was the headline I was thinking of going with. This was inevitable, obviously, and from certain perspectives long overdue, so one big question is: why now? There’s all sorts of meat on this bone for us Clipper cognoscenti, but for starters I think the timing is pretty good, and it makes some sense.
I was writing and wondering this morning about whether any shred of hope is still alive for this season (it isn’t, I don’t think). So that’s one reason to make the move. Going into the Funkiest Game of All in Memphis, there was still a possibility that the team would gel and make the run that other teams like the Funk and the Thunder have done. Didn’t happen, injuries (an excuse) intervened, the losses in NJ and Minn showed that the team was capable of playing at the lowest level, Cleveland was over before it started, and Atlanta slipped away unnecessarily. You also don’t want to make this change right before going out on an epic, tough road trip, and doing it right away when you get back makes some sense.
I’m not going to vilify MDSr and his system right now—others will do that. We can digest, dissect and analyze over time. I think it’s clear that there certainly wasn’t any real upside left in Dunleavy’s coaching. The best case was that he built a playoff team, that then chokes when they get there. They have to learn to win enough to get to the playoffs, and then they have to learn to win in the playoffs. He’s not a great game and pressure coach, so he might do okay in the challenges ahead, and he has some familiarity with them, but he wouldn’t be great. We can leave it at that.
So, timing-wise, one of the most intriguing things is that he’s going to collect the salary and focus on being the GM. This gives him another shot to stay in and guide the organization, with a different focus, and he’ll still make some decisive moves but he won’t be the one deciding whether Craig Smith or DJordan is the first big off the bench anymore. Now he’s going to spend a couple weeks deciding what to do with Marcus Camby and others, shaping the future.
I think that the run for Kobe—and the failed deal with FElton—is a good indication of what his GM activity might be like, given the cap space situation. He’s going to want to make a significant free agent deal of some kind, or a significant trade that pre-empts such a deal. That sets up the offseason (and the draft, etc.) to be his team, without him as coach. If he makes the big deal, then he sticks around for a year and sees how the team fares, see what happens. If the deals don’t go well and things stay mediocre to poor, the time on his money runs out and the Clippers start over.
The other he can look at as GM is hiring a coach. It seems doubtful he would be allowed to do a longterm deal for a questionable coach, especially since he won’t be around.
All very interesting. Lots to think about and discuss. Gotta go.
The Clippers as I've said can be in play if they hire a good young GM
and an up and coming coach
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Feb 4, 2010 9:52 PM PST up reply actions
sweet verse mikey p. :-) Helped brighten my day
"Put the icing on the cake ladies and gentlemen" - Ralph Lawler vs. The Grizzlies
by In GrIfFin We TrUsT on Feb 5, 2010 10:01 AM PST up reply actions
Road Trip
If Dunleavy wasn’t on the rocks before the trip, the back to back losses with the Nets & Timberwolves probably put him on the chopping block, and rightly so. Since a coach is rarely fired on a trip, the polite thing to do was to give him the chance to finish up the trip and perhaps even a chance at redemption. That actually presented itself in Atlanta, where if they would have won, he probably still had an opportunity to get the team on a run back to .500 – That of course didn’t happen, and the rest is history. I’m glad they chose Hughes.
As far as who exactly got Dunleavy fired? I think everyone within the organization knew of the growing frustration among the fans. The season has been hanging in the balance the last couple of weeks, and I think DTS, Roeser, and whoever they consult with, possibly even BD? felt it was the right time, and even though Dunleavy was probably reluctant, you have to think that he knew as well. He’s heard the chants and everything else, he might even be a little relieved not to have to face the heckling fans for the upcoming homestand.
Just got home and heard the news and my initial reaction went like this:
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!
After I composed myself, I was wondering just who Kim Hughes is. Is our future head coach a little Asian woman? What’s going on here?
I've got nothing.
Um...
He’s been the top assistant for the team for years and years.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
I would have preferred to start over with an Asian woman.
It might finally bring the Clippers a happy ending.
Okay, I’m done.
I've got nothing.
You're done?
Done what?
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
We had that already...
Yuta Tabuse…the fans loved it but it didn’t really produce much in the win column. By the way Yuta is a small MALE asian, but more like a well groomed “pretty boy”. The “Jordan of Japan”.
by Takebb909 on Feb 4, 2010 8:57 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Wow didn't see this coming
but I am happy it did.
" Baron for the win, BINGO!!!! The Clipers Win, The Clippers win!!! "
Ralph Lawler
Wow
I left the office all afternoon for a meeting. Had a few text messages passing along the news.
This was a big day for blogging, and I missed it. I’m very upset about this. You practice all year long, and they you miss the game.
How do you think I feel?
Seth had to post it for me! If even called me, but I slept through the call. It’s actually fortunate for me that this announcement didn’t happen at 10 AM… I would have been missing in action for like 8 hours.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
Mojo going strong
SP goes down hard on the day the change finally happens.
Coincidence? I don’t think so.
by citizen zhiv on Feb 4, 2010 10:39 PM PST up reply actions
took all the reverse mojo out of him...
almost Herculian like….
Roger Sterling: To my knees, Don. They're bringing to my knees!"
Herculean Reverse Mojo Effort
Exactly. Obviously SP was giving the team everything he’s got, as always. He didn’t achieve fuhrer status in Clips Nation by fearing the pain.
by citizen zhiv on Feb 5, 2010 10:31 AM PST up reply actions
Death, taxes...
and the Clipper Steve MOJO.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
I think MD went with someone the players could look up to.
Kim Hughes is6’10". LOL
MD didn't do anything - he's gone
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Feb 4, 2010 9:53 PM PST up reply actions
He's still the GM
Not gone.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
That's just to save face IMO
I suspect he’s gone in terms of retaining any power.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Feb 4, 2010 9:55 PM PST up reply actions
I actually disagree...
Unless this is some PR stunt (which is definitely not out of the question) I think MDsr is actually going to stay on as GM through the remainder of his contract. Where the hell else is he going to get $5 million a year for anything? (Assassin for hire?)
He’s not going to get offered another coaching job anytime soon, and Sterling is going to let him get paid for applying Rogaine at home. Besides, I’m one of those folks who thinks he’s done a decent job as GM. Let him continue to pull money from Sterling’s pockets, something he’s been really good at.
At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.
We'll see
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Outlined above
Jax—what makes you think he has been relieved of GM duties/power? If he had the reins in the first place, isn’t the logical scenario that he came back from the unsuccessful road trip, looked at the future, and thought it was a good time to step aside and let Hughes gets some games under his belt, change things up, focus (as GMMDSr) on making phone calls and shopping Camby, the trade exception, etc., relinquish the courtside helm. He might have discussed it with Olshey or whoever (DTS? probably not. Hughes? Lucas? Definitely yes.) before leaving on the trip or during it, after the Memphis debacle and the series of setbacks that immediately followed. The margin for success was thin enough before, and it closed during that time.
I think MDSr gets it, to a certain degree. He’s not insane and power-mad, and he’s making a calculated play for his exit. The timing is right for him to head upstairs, take over Elgin’s seat. Olshey might be putting together a shortlist for other GMs, but DTS is not about to pay out MDSr and send him away.
Unless you have reason to believe otherwise.
by citizen zhiv on Feb 4, 2010 10:47 PM PST up reply actions
Because, Zhiv, it's the Clippers, Jake
That’s DTS’ pattern. They kept Baylor around for years pretending that he was the GM. MDSr was front and center in that charade. So this is among other things quite an ironic turn of events.
As I said above, he’s very prideful. Remember, this guy who told us all that he’s smarter and better than anyone who could replace him just got dumped. There’s a power play afoot beneath the surface now. He didn’t fire himself. He is not calling the shots any longer.
You guys give him far too much respect. Only the Clippers would have allowed such an incompetent to stick around so long. Even they realize it now.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Feb 5, 2010 6:32 AM PST up reply actions
Swimming against the tide
More like “It’s the Clippers, Jax”, no?
The LAT articles are worth looking at. Heisler does a good job; I don’t think Plaschke gets it. Plaschke—not going to worry about spelling his name correctly—suggests that Byron Scott might be a good coaching candidate. What he doesn’t realize is something that KA pointed out to close his excellent post yesterday: it’s Baron Davis’s team now. BD played for BScott in New Orleans, and found it unpleasant. Chris Paul is still in NO, and Scott is gone. No way Scott will be coach of the Clippers. BPlasch mentions JVG, which is a good name. He also says Avery Johnson, but I don’t see that. My sense is that John Lucas would be a better coach than Avery Johnson.
At any rate, Dunleavy changed the Clippers, pushed to get the practice facility built, etc. Just because his coaching tenure was rocky and didn’t work out doesn’t mean he’s anything like Elgin Baylor. If the team, with his new coach and more new players after trades, draft, free agency doesn’t make the playoffs next year, then he’ll be gone. But probably not before.
I know this goes against your hopes for a clean sweep. At least it’s a significant change.
by citizen zhiv on Feb 5, 2010 7:43 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
+1
Anyone advocating a clean sweep like Jax just doesn’t get it. Have you already forgotten was the time was like pre-2003? Without Dunleavy riding Sterling, we go right back to that. I put full faith in Dunleavy running the team than letting Sterling run things willy-nilly.
I hope and pray MDSr. stays as GM.
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's doing down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on Feb 5, 2010 9:33 AM PST up reply actions
*what the team was like
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's doing down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on Feb 5, 2010 9:34 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah I want him to stay on as GM as well
very aggressive and always working the phones, so to speak.
by dulciusEXasperis on Feb 5, 2010 10:10 AM PST up reply actions
At the statue
My favorite thing about going through this thread now is swamig’s statue for Dunleavy. Probably not in front of Staples. How about Sterling World Plaza in Beverly Hills? No—I know—at the practice facility. Maybe do a tableau of MDSr and OEB together, looking at plans, staring at the future: seeing the line of Clipper greats in their minds’ eye: Baron Davis, Blake Griffin. Chris Kaman is there, and Eric Gordon. Some guy the team gets through trade, free agency or draft, although I’d be happy for Marcus Camby to have a statue in the Clipper pantheon.
GforP can go worship at the MDSrOEB statue.
Cause DTS is such a classy guy, can’t you see him saying to EB: “It’s okay, Elgin. I know the lawsuit settlement is skimpy, not what you wanted. But I commissioned this excellent statue of you and Dunleavy. C’mon, buddy!”
Statues in the ancient world were generally painted, even though they were made of the finest marble, which was lying around in all sorts of places back in the day. I think you’d have to use paint on the statues to capture Dunleavy’s cheesy suit and Elgin’s excellent sweater..
by citizen zhiv on Feb 5, 2010 10:42 AM PST up reply actions
Well, technically...
I said monument, not statue. And I didn’t say Dun deserves one, but if you want to take it there, that’s okay. But it’s interesting you bring up the practice facility, Zhiv, I forgot about that… because that building is a monument to MDSr. I think many will recall that when Mike Dunleavy first arrived he insisted the Clippers build a practice facility… and, surprisingly, DTS agreed. Don got a good deal on a bit of swampland down in Playa Del Rey, hired an architect, then sat on the project for something like two years. Mike Dunleavy, the man, not the statue, kept reminding, kept insisting, kept telling DTS it was necessary. And guess what, it happened. They should name it after the guy… because he made it happen.
um he is not respected around the league
Again we will see what happens. To me the notion that he voluntarily gave up his coaching responsibilities is laughable.
We will see it will all come out in the wash.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Feb 5, 2010 10:54 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
From radio comments and other coaches
It seems as though he is somewhat respected. The only people giving him crud are certain Clipper fans.
I think he is respected as a basketball guy
Been around a while. But his coaching credentials have declined. He may have coached his last game ever, although this is the NBA, home of retread coaches galore. The same people tend to just move around.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Let me put it this way
Players don’t want to play for him. Look at what happened with EB. If you can’t sign your own franchise players, you aren’t doing your job. The fact EB went elsewhere does not bode well for MDSr’s future as GM.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Of course he was forced out...
I’m pretty sure he knew it though. Hard to believe he could rationalize that the team still had a chance to do anything this year. He might have wanted to coach Blake Griffin but that was too far in the future.
Not to toot my horn...
but the first time Griffin’s return was pushed back from December to January, I said it was bad news for Dunleavy.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Yep - you did - good call
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
He is definitely still the GM
And good thing. He has done a satisfactory job in that role. The players were no longer listening to him on the sidelines.
He will be GM for another year until his contract is up. Then, “we’ll see”.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
the key is whether he is running the show
There we disagree. At this point I have no inside scoop. Do you?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Feb 5, 2010 10:55 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
No scoops
just logic. Why pay him $5M to do nothing? I’d bet anything that he is still making personell decisions for at least this year and probably next year.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Triva Time
Which NBA head coach is taller than Hughes?
Current?
None. Rambis and Kiki come to mind as tall, but not as tall as Hughes. NBA history…. Bill Cartwright. McHale was also listed at 6’10" like Hughes. There are probably others.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
Ewing's still with Magic, right?
7’0" if I recall correctly.
by Highbury Library on Feb 4, 2010 9:10 PM PST up reply actions
HEAD coach
Reading comprehension FAIL.
by Highbury Library on Feb 4, 2010 9:10 PM PST up reply actions
Herb Williams
Sometimes listed as 6’11", sometimes 6’10". He might have been the tallest.
Glad you said it...
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
Wilt
Was a player-coach in the ABA so he doesn’t count and even then he didn’t even really coach.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Feb 5, 2010 11:34 AM PST up reply actions
Russel was a player coach, so he doesn't count either?
Cartwright’s still the tallest.
Bill Russell is pretty tall
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
thank mercy MDSr.'s where he ought to be
making great personnel moves and far away from game-calling. He’s slightly reverse Jeff Bower.
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Feb 4, 2010 7:34 PM PST reply actions
May Lightning Strike Me Now
Because, I NEVER thought I’d write these words, thank you Donald Sterling.
Ugh, feel ill already…
Why Kim Hughes
I remembered in November when CMDsr was on hot seat, he stated teams changing coach during season not finding success in the past, coach Hughes happened to be the assistants with Clippers the longest. he know the players better than Lucas or Brown.
We should develop our own guys
if you check the NBA history, most teams signed free agents not necessary turning their fortune around immediately, with the exception of the Celtics three seasons ago, but even this team won only one champion, their window of winning another one is fast closing. in you look around the NBA teams, all the success franchises Lakers, Spurs, Cavs, they all have one thing in common, they drafted and developed their franchise player.
Since we concluded that LBJ, Wade, nor Bosh are not likely join the Clippers, why not develop our own draft picks. we are one or two good draft pick away from relevant.
I present to you
Shaquille O’Neal. Drafted by Orlando. Won rings for LA and Miami.
We have tried to develop our draft picks
but if you look at the guys we’ve picked from Lamond Murray, Maurice Taylor, Derek Anderson, Kandiman, Wilcox, etc etc you’ll see these guys had limited upside. Even when they left they found fairly modest success elsewhere. We do have EJ, AT, BG and Kaman so the core of this team is home grown. Actually we only have 3 significant FA signings ever, Tim Thomas, Cuttino Mobley and Baron Davis, aside from those 3 we normally just get bottom of the barrel guys like Skinner, Jason Hart etc.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Feb 5, 2010 11:37 AM PST up reply actions
Its not wrong to want to draft well
But I think you miss the mark with the develop talk.
What did the Lakers do to develop Kobe? What did the Spurs do to develop Duncan? Please be specific and demonstrate how Duncan would be a completely different player if he had been drafted by the Celtics instead.
Was it because they used their first overall pick on the consensus #1 big, then brought in a legendary player and maybe greatest ever at the position to work with them as a personal coach?
No, I’m thinking of that Olowokandi guy.
Drafting well matters, but development is largely a myth.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
lol
that whole argument goes against the idea a player can improve. From day to day a player can improved it’s depends on 2 factors the players will and who he/she is learning from.
Development is a myth lmao
So many players come to mind
The silliness continues.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
fashion
I’m going to miss MDSr’s crazy coats and ties on the sidelines.
by Citizen Roy G Biv on Feb 4, 2010 8:49 PM PST reply actions
Taking Elgin's seat
He’ll still be wearing some crazy DunleavyGear to the games, but he’ll be sitting in that GM seat. It’d be awesome if he started wearing those crazy sweaters OEB (Original EB) used to wear.
by citizen zhiv on Feb 4, 2010 10:49 PM PST up reply actions
Hooray!
The witch is dead! (Or close enough to dead) I didn’t believe this headline was true until I read the whole story. Dunleavy out as coach, and the Bobcats are close to being sold (I’m in Charlotte). What a great week!
I like the core team we have now, and they should be kept together long enough to find out how successful they can be with a new coach. This team doesn’t need to make major personel moves. They finally made the most important one today.
If LeBron or Wade comes calling in free agency, that plan can always change. Hopefully Dunleavy has a feel for whether Camby will return although that didn’t work so well with FElton. Still, I’m optimistic he can be re-signed for a couple more productive years. Then the Clippers can draft a small forward – Damion James is my choice right now. With Blake finally playing next season, this team will have enough talent to compete with anyone.
lol yeah, I'm gonna watch inside the NBA to see what Sir Charles has to say about this
Charles: "First of aalll……(blah blah blah blah blah)
by baron_davis needs a fro on Feb 4, 2010 9:14 PM PST up reply actions
I'm kind of gonna miss Dunleavy, the jokes and criticism were quite amusing to me when I went to Clipper blogs....now who are we gonna bash for fun??
by baron_davis needs a fro on Feb 4, 2010 9:15 PM PST reply actions
no those were actually called for. but usually if nothin interesting is going on with the Clips
we’d just make fun of Dun’s suits, or Dun’s face, or Dun’s bald spot
by baron_davis needs a fro on Feb 4, 2010 9:22 PM PST up reply actions
I'm laughing
The photo that Steve put up is hilarious, at least to me.
Dunleavy is drawing up a play with confidence, and Coach Hughes is staring at the white board with a look of “Really dude? Again? FML!”
I will say it again… I really like this move. I know John R. will state that it has no consequence, because after all, coaching is like… well, like nothing. I, however, think this is muy bueno . I’ve been smiling all day. A lot of my Laker-fan friends have been texting me “Congrats”, and “Finally”, to which I respond “you have no idea how good this feels”. Which isn’t exactly true, since they have had the pleasure of seeing MDsr fired from their team as well.
At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.
Can't believe how great Portland Trail Blazers have been with all the injuries they have had while losing Roy
This dumb@$$ needed to go good.
i have to admit
i do feel alot better about being a fan…SOMETHING had to be done…lately, i was not looking forward, or even putting an effort to watch/listen to the games, but this definitely changes things…i like gmmdsr, and I know this is the best, if not this year, then the next! Chin up John R!!
Roger Sterling: To my knees, Don. They're bringing to my knees!"
I'm fine
Now its on all of those other guys to have been right.
As someone said somewhere else “The witch is dead”. Except, you know, there’s no such thing as witches, so a witch hunt is never appropriate.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
It's a Wizard of Oz moment! (not a witch hunt)
A seemingly insurmountable barrier to success has been lifted, and we can all take a deep breath of fresh air. Changing coaches doesn’t mean the team will be better, but it offers hope that they can be. Club optimism can open its doors once more!
Many have correctly pointed out that Dunleavy deserves respect for convincing Sterling to retain talent and occaisonally pursue free agents. He helped make the Clips a “real” NBA team that at least attempted to be competitive. Well, any NBA team striving to become a contender would have changed coaches long ago if they struggled as badly as the Clips have the past three years. Ironically, removing Dunleavy is just as important as hiring him was for the Clippers to become a respectable, competitive franchise.
Whatever flavor of female sorcerer you prefer
Remember that they are all just a metaphor. A symbol for something else.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
A few posters have wondered who the tallest NBA coaches were.
I’ve come up with Bill Carwright at 7’1", and Wilt Chamerlan at 7’1". Wilt coached in the ABA for one year. The next was Bob Lanier at 6’11", McHale and Mikan at 6’10" and 5 others at 6’9".
It might be fun to speculate who the shortest one is (but near impossible to find out), the closest I’ve come up with is Fratello at 5’7".
Thanks, Mike, for everything you have done to turn this franchise around since you got here.
Most people on this blog weren’t part of the dog-day Clipper years during the late 80s and 90s. Gotta like his comment during a recent interview that this is a “man’s game”. Kaman, Gordon, take note. Play hurt once in a while and don’t whine.
BTW, Gordon is too short and is over-rated. Can’t finish, dribble, make good decisions, or rebound. Taller players post him up. Since he has trouble making free throws, gotta question his shooting ability, too.
He doesn't do those things very well.
He’s a very good perimeter defender, able to attack the basket, good finisher, knocks down shots from the outside which opens the floor for everyone else, he’s shown to be one the league’s most efficient guards (although he’s currently been slumping) and he’s capable exploding for 30 points on any given night.
He’s in his second year. Give the guy some time.
by Lawler 4ever on Feb 5, 2010 12:25 AM PST up reply actions
+1
you can’t judge the kids game when he is barely old enough to drink. He will improve over time, the most important things is he has the most important things down already: he can make jump shots, he can drive, and he can finish with contact. He needs to improve his passing and handling skills but these are minor things that can be improved over a summer. And I don’t think that Gordon should be the target of the no whining. Gordon missed very few games last season and has missed the games this season with very legitimate injuries. Gordon’s injuries are not the Kaman ghost injuries that defy logic.
" Baron for the win, BINGO!!!! The Clipers Win, The Clippers win!!! "
Ralph Lawler
i agree with this wholeheartedly.
i first started going to a few games in the mid 90s. the bo outlaw years and such when i was 12. this organization was horrible. maybe its not the best yet, but MD sr. has at least turned the clippers at worst into a middling franchise.
i mean looka t the team, its got a future, they dont have boat loads of bad contracts, they have good young players, and the team isnt bleeding money. somehow through the mike dunleavy years, this team has become at least a decent franchise.
i mean look at other franchises out there. we could be new orleans which is firesaling players. or a place like phoenix where they sell draft picks for money. or philadelphia where they have boatloads tied up in dalembart and brand yet their 2 best post men are bench players.
dunleavy got this ship turned around. i guess most people do not realize just how horrible this franchise was when we were carting our tony massenberg and terry dehere etc and getting excited about chumps like maurice taylor (who hillariously is banished to china on steph marbury’s team)
Before we start celebrating...
Let’s think things through….Dunleavy’s effectiveness as coach of this franchise was probably over three years ago. However, him stepping down in the middle of the season with no long term replacement lined up doesn’t bode well. The main benefit of changing coach mid season is that you allow the players to get used to a new coach and new system, so having the second half of this season to acclimate for next year is beneficial. Is Kim Hughes auditioning for the head coach contract next year? Let’s say his record from here on out is .500…will that be enough to retain him for next season? Will the fans on this blog be happy with Hughes? But more importantly for DTS, will the season ticket holders be happy with Hughes going forward? (most NBA team revenues come from ticket sales and arena concessions) Many of us, over the years, haven’t been all too happy with Dunleavy either, but nor do we join in the sporadic and oft ill-timed “Fire Dunleavy” chants…mainly because alot of us have been there longer than Dunleavy has been coach.
The Hughes promotion is key for the franchise. If all the players know that Kim Hughes is only an interim coach, then he won’t have the respect of the players, and they probably won’t be interested in learning a new system if he were to try and put one in…because what would be the point? Promoting Hughes as head coach right now only make sense if Dunleavy and DTS believes that he has what it takes to be a good coach in this league. Let’s hope that he does. Because Dunleavy could have coached this team to the summer before finding a long term replacement. Otherwise, with Hughes gone in three months, we will be right back on the coaching carousel, and long term fans have seen this movie a dozen times before. Let’s see if there are any grown ups in the room to make decisions going forward.
Not necessarily
I think you’re making a lot of assumptions, particularly about Hughes. You hit the nail on the head with your first line and that’s the reason he was fired. He wasn’t effective and he simply lost this team.
The reason it finally happened is that it had gotten to an embarrassing level that even Sterling couldn’t justify keeping him. Any other franchise not named the Warriors would have fired Dunleavy twice by now. Only Sterling would wait this long (Cohan would still be waiting).
None of that speaks to Hughes’ abilities. The bottom line is that it was obvious to pretty much everyone that a change had to be made and it finally was. You can’t implement a new system mid-season so that’s not even an issue. Hughes will likely just streamline Dun’s playbook and allow them to improvise more.
As for next season, this allows the team to see if Hughes has the coaching chops to warrant keeping him on. If he does, Sterling has a cheap head coach. If not, they can re-evaluate over the summer. Keeping Dun all season robs them of a chance to gives Hughes a look. That’s all there is to it.
Actually madglove...
Sterling is very good at firing coaches. I’m not sure how long you’ve been a Clippers fan, or if you’ve been around in the old days and have forgotten, but Sterling used to fire a coach once every 1.5 season before he hired Dunleavy. Since I’ve been a fan and started buying tickets to the old Sports Arena, we’ve had: Don Chaney, Gene Shue, Don Casey, Mike Schuler, Larry Brown, Bob Weiss, Bill Fitch, Chris Ford, Jim Todd, Alvin Gentry, & Dennis Johnson before MDSr. That’s 12 coaches in 18 years…so each coach averaged 1.5 season before he got the axe. As I recall, the coaching carousel didn’t lead to very many wins for the franchise. Dunleavy is an anamoly in the long line of short lived Clippers coaches.
Oh I've been around
What’s with Clips fans around here lately constantly questioning how long fans have been around? As if the Clips got good recently and there are a lot of bandwagoners.
Not only have I been around, I have some ties within the organization.
And as for Sterling’s willingness to fire coaches, first of all, it was Elgin making those calls. Yea Sterling had to give his ok, but it’s different when there’s an actual GM telling you that a change needs to be made. In this case, Sterling had to make the call himself for the first time in all those years you just outlined.
And ask yourself how many of those coaches had Dunleavy’s contract. 28 other owners would have fired their coach regardless for the kind of performance Dun’s teams have given lately. Maybe if Sterling wasn’t paying millions to settle discrimination lawsuits, he would have acted sooner.
I think it's because...
this blog has been overrun with teenagers lately, talking about the new Mass Effect video games etc. The thing you have to remember about DTS was that it was his decision not to give guys like Chaney and Casey contracts longer than two years…specifically so he can fire them without financial repercussion. Elgin rounded up the coaches for interview but ultimately, DTS made the call to hire them and for how long. The only exception was Larry Brown, who DTS revered, but every time Larry hears a train whistle, he looks forlornly toward the next town. The only other exception was Bill Fitch after he was awarded his second contract, which DTS broke, when he fired him.
According to Mark Heisler, who I like as a sportswriter, DTS has been soliciting everyone’s opinions about Dunleavy for the past few years. Heisler, like many old NBA hands, seem to like or respect Dunleavy. In his articles, he has been advising DTS to stay the course with Dunleavy; that stability for the franchise is a good thing. As fans, we can only hope that DTS doesn’t revert back to his old habits. An old dog can learn new tricks right?
Heisler
I read that piece he wrote as well. Maybe if DTS would pony up for a real GM to run his team, he wouldn’t have to run around asking sports writers, who aren’t any more qualified than an average season ticket holder, or their advice.
I like Heisler fine as a sportswriter, but he’s no NBA exec and his writing shows it. If anything, he’s far more interested in making pithy comments to entertain than provide good analysis.
Good conversation
Also take into account that those coaches that were previously fired didn’t have $22M 4 year contracts to pay up.
I still don’t understand the premise behind the employment contracts in the sporting world. In no other “real world” job would you collect all your money if you were fired for poor performance.
Yet in sports, a coach performs poorly, gets fired and then gets paid!!!!
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
Real world?
Sporting world is just like “real” world. CEOs of corporate entities get fired all the time for poor performance & lo & behold, in their contracts are HUGE golden parachutes after their terminations.
That being said, hooray for this wonderful news!!!!! Best thing to happen to the team in a long time.
Go Clips!!!!!!!!
Good point
Maybe I should have just said people in “normal” jobs!
Bingo! Oh me oh my!
by ClippersUK on Feb 5, 2010 10:51 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
According to Mark Heisler?
Have you ever gone to a game and been around DTS? He solicits everyone’s opinions about everything, constantly, and always has. That’s just the way he is.
Your post above with all due respect is just incorrect where you say dumping MDSr now doesn’t bode well. This is the best move the Clippers have made in years. Three years overdue. Now they at least have a chance to get back to respectability. They have talent. Now it’s time to get someone in who can help to mold that talent.
Let it go, man, let it go, and enjoy the ride.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Feb 5, 2010 6:37 AM PST up reply actions
back to respectability?
The closest thing the Clippers have come to respectability is under MDsr.
Yes he led them there (as did Larry Brown before)l, temporarily
But he also led them away. Someone else will bring them back (using his practice facility)
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
What’s with Clips fans around here lately constantly questioning how long fans have been around?
Because they only did get good recently and there are a lot of bandwagoners? It is only during the MDSr tenure that someone can say the Clippers name without a chuckle or a spit.
I would ask the question because there seem to be an ever increasing number of comments that seem to completely lack historical perspective.
As to coaching turnover: So as long as Elgin was around he was making the obviously good decision to keep firing coaches, but once he left we were left with the generous and/or cowardly Sterling who is ruthless enough to allegedly ignore anti-discrimination law but won’t fire his coach and this is a bad decision.
Its a strange collection of beliefs.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Having problems following the convo?
Your post was about as unintelligible as they come, but if you tried to summarize my points, you may need to take a reading comp class.
LOL
Since you didn’t refute anything about my comment, I guess you sign off on it.
I can see I am the new target of your hate.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
There's no need to refute it
Your post is incoherent.
When you write things that are worth responding to, I do. And obviously I respond frequently.
When you want to try to lay on the sarcasm by misrepresenting what I wrote, it’s not worth a substantive response because your post lacked substance to begin with.
Keep trying though.
Hate hate hate hate hate hate
So my comment (Steve makes posts we make comments) was first unintelligible, then sarcasm including misrepresentation.
Maybe you only needed to reread it a few times to understand? You still aren’t quite there though. It isn’t sarcasm, and it doesn’t misrepresent what you wrote at all. It also incorprates ideas like Clippers history and that perspective.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Not hate, just saying that your post is nonsensical
Which is entirely correct.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
I think the questioning of tenure as a Clippers fan has been brought up
is because it seems there seems to be a rift in mentality between long time fans and “05-06” fans.
The 05-06 fans seem to think Dunleavy is the worst thing to ever happen to the Clippers. That a 21-28 record is a “joke”…when in fact it is somewhat respectable, relatively speaking.
The longer tenured fans remember the dog days prior to MDsr. Despite disagreements on the coaching ability, many of the longer tenured fans thank MDsr for changing the mentality of this place and attempting to win.
That's silly
The line isn’t between fans who appreciate what Dun has done or not. The line is that Dun apologists like John want to reference how bad things used to be as a scare tactic that things will return to those days. Anyone who doesn’t think that’s necessarily the case is thus labeled a “new fan” to try to reduce their credibility.
And frankly, it’s silly to maintain the status quo because the length of Dun’s tenure is better than that of past coaches. The last 2-3 years have been just as bad as our past years. The fact that he won in 05-06 is great, but it doesn’t mean he should be immune from accountability.
Being a long suffering fan and remembering the days when Sterling refused to spend doesn’t mean you have to accept being a crappy team now. For all the improvements that Dun brought, last year’s 19 win season was one of the worst seasons in franchise history…and Ralph, who is as tenured as they come, agreed.
Stop making excuses for those who ignorantly support Dun. It has nothing to do with being a long time fan. It has everything to do with having an opinion and anchoring it by trying to criticize the fandom of others.
"Anchoring it by trying to criticize the fandom of others."
I understand why you would feel that way, but it really doesn’t apply. I ask the question because to ignore history equally comes across as not having access to it. I have to ask because in the internet comment form there is no immediately way to tell the difference between someone ignoring the past and someone ignorant of it.
Criticizing fandom is dumb because, to me, being fanatical is kinda dumb. Taking pride in the accomplishment of other men is weird. Notice I don’t use the word “we” to refer to the Clippers…
However, are you denying that there is a significant amount of Clippers fans who are only Clippers fans because of the Dunleavy era’s success and that these fans wouldn’t have the full perspective of the pre-Dunleavy era? Then, ironically, they are mad at the man who deserves some amount of responsbility for them being Clippers fans in the first place. Surely this is true…
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
No I don't deny that
I’m sure there are quite a few fans who are fans post-Dunleavy.
What’s strange to me is that you act as if wanting Dun fired or even criticizing his lack of effectiveness in the last few years is tantamount to ignoring his contributions. That’s simply not true.
I don’t think too many people, even Jax, are saying “I wish Dun were NEVER here” or “He’s the worst thing to ever happen to us!”
My point is and always has been that yes he did a lot of positive things here, but the last few years he’s been terrible. Everyone wants to point to what happened nearly half a decade ago. Yea, that was great, but right now, this isn’t great.
That’s why his firing was warranted. It’s irrelevant how things were before he got here. The last few years have been just as bad as those pre-Dun.
Firing was warranted...
…but chants like “ding dong…the witch is dead, etc” which show lack of historical context in my opinion.
Is it really worthwhile
to harp on a pop-culture reference?
I don’t know if anyone literally feels like he was a witch.
Those are more of your assumptions
You are assuming the best in those that agree with you and the worst in those that disagree.
Its all right here on the page.
Luckily its rare that someone agree with me so I am not stricken by that affliction.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Allow me to remove some of the assumptions
Please excuse the Wizard of Oz reference if it was misleading. I was just making the point that for those of us who lost faith in CMDSr long ago, a new era can begin. It’s not so much about criticizing Dunleavy as it is celebrating the moment when, just maybe, the team transitions into something far more exciting and successful than what we’ve endured the last three years.
I give Dunleavy much respect for his previous accomplishments, but IMO he limited the team’s potential as long as he remained the coach. His system failed to take advantage of the players’ strengths, and he was not successful at leading and motivating them.
Plenty of long time Clipper fans feel the same way, and I’m not ignorant of the risks involved in parting ways with Dunleavy. But IMO, trying out a different coach has been a risk worth taking since the middle of last season. And I’ve been pulling for the Clips since the Larry Brown years.
Btw
Your point makes quite a few assumptions:
Then, ironically, they are mad at the man who deserves some amount of responsbility for them being Clippers fans in the first place. Surely this is true…
You have no evidence that establishes that those who criticize Dun are in fact post-Dun fans. Again, it’s just a way for Dun supporters to try to bolster their position.
Some long time fans like me wanted Dun fired. Some didn’t. I’m sure some post-Dun fans didn’t want him fired either.
Just having a handful of Dun supporters pompously declare that they’re old fans doesn’t mean the opposite is true for Dun criticizers.
Those are your assumptions, not mine
“You have no evidence that establishes that those who criticize Dun are in fact post-Dun fans.”
No. I understand that there are members of both groups who may be critics.
When have I ever declared myself an old fan? Through the viewing parties I have confessed to many of the citizens that I am, in fact, not an old fan, so how could I see value in that?
In fact, if I see the Clippers quit and go back to the old ways, I will drop them, as the kids say, like they are hot. What happens now matters a lot.
These are all your prejudices, not mine.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
No offense but your arguments are nonsensical and irrelevant
MDSr is a bad coach by any measure. Record, xs and os, ability to motivate, etc.
He should have been fired long ago like any bad coach.
I suspect you raise all these irrelevant issues about how long people have been fans because you have nothing to say when it comes to his actual coaching ability.
Curious though – since you say coaches don’t matter, why do you care so much?
You want to talk about the lessons of history? The history of MDSr is a losing history. By record. By his coaching at crunch time. By getting into ego battles with players. By denigrating the owner. By denigrating the coach. By lying to all of us about his role on the team, by failing to resign key free agents. His behavior in the past, i.e., his history, suggests only that he needed to go long ago.
You act like the team will retreat back to the distant past without him. He’s sub .400. Not much different than the past you fear so much. What’s worse, losing without talent or losing with talent?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
I've been going to games for 25 years and been a
STH for almost the past 10 – and I absolutely despised the way Dunleavy coached. I won’t pile on other than to say I’m glad he’s not coaching anymore.
by eastie Rich on Feb 5, 2010 12:18 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
What’s strange to me is that you act as if wanting Dun fired or even criticizing his lack of effectiveness in the last few years is tantamount to ignoring his contributions.
But I don’t do that either.
My point is, and has always been, there was a long period in Clippers history when losing was acceptable. Then for a very short period all of a sudden we are up in arms because we don’t have enough success RIGHT NOW.
Its not about ignoring his contributions because they are his contributions. Its about betting everything on the fact that the prior two decades and 20 coaches are the fluke and the current success (05-06,06-07, and the current rebuild in progress), however fleeting, can be replicated by another GM within the construct of the Clippers organization.
The only way, to me, that those two views can be reconciled is that there are two acceptable outcomes:
A) It will work
B) Its ok that it doesn’t work and a return to the status quo is acceptable because no MDSr = no expectations.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
"The current rebuild in progress"
I think we’ve already established that the current team is not in rebuilding mode. Only those who are apologists for losers describe it in such a way.
Why not just sit back, relax, and see what happens. Because things weren’t working with MDSr and they were never going to work with MDSr. I told you that three years ago. You didn’t listen then. I guess you’ll have to now.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Get your point...
Just trying to provide some rationale….
…I myself am excited to see how the team is going to play under Kim. I remember the games he coached being really fun.
CAN'T STOP GRINNING!!!!!!!
I LOVE IT ,LOVE IT,LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOW CAN WE GET A COUPLE OF WINS AND MAYBE MAKE THE PLAYOFFS? NEW COACH HUGHES……..LET EM RUN COACH, LET EM RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GOOD RIDDANCE !!!!!
DON’T EVER TRY TO COACH AGAIN DUMPLEAVY AND BUY YOURSELF A SUIT THAT HAS MATCHING PANTS -YA BUMM!!!!
if i was dunleavy, i would have stepped down also
after watching that pitiful start to the 3rd quarter in the atlanta game, i dont blame dunleavy at all…if it was me, i would have gone nuclear on kaman for giving the game away….dunleavy has mad some very good moves as the gm…the one exception was signing baron davis who is immensely talented and at the same time totally uncoachable…as someone who has been a clip fan since 1985 ive seen the bonehead draft choices(terry dehere, randy woods, benoit, reggie williams, olowakandi etc) and the terrible trades(danny manning for an old dominique and charles smith for Stanley “fatman” roberts) and the experiment with “hot plate” williams…these and more all came about with elgin(nice man, terrible gm)…also all of the coaching changes…with dunleavy, the clips made good draft choices (except for korolev) and made some good cap decisions and has good young talent to build around….so, im happy that dunleavy came here…im glad that he brought stability…elgin could have never acquired camby as quickly as dunleavy did after the brand exit…he brought in smith, telfair and butler which were good moves…but, they need a point guard who wants to be the leader and wants to win as much as chris paul, deron williams, rondo, derek fisher, steve nash etc…and baron doesnt have that passion and will to win…watching dunleavy’s face at the start of the 3rd quarter in atlanta, im surprised he didnt just walk out on the players…now that would have been statement.
From reading the Heisler article....
…it sounds like Dunleavy will not have much power beyond this season. If he proves to be a good GM and the Clippers make the playoffs next season perhaps he’ll stay beyond next season, but he’ll have to accept less money(how could he not!)
I actually like him as a GM
He’s made good draft picks the last 3-4 seasons and has always been very active and aggressive in making changes that, all in all, have bettered the team. Who else would take over if he were to leave? Whether he was a bad coach or not, there’s no doubting the energy he put into this team. You gotta love that, especially from a GM.
by dulciusEXasperis on Feb 5, 2010 8:32 AM PST up reply actions
The team's next de facto coach...
NOTE: I wrote this for another thread, but it seems better placed here
It’s Baron. As KA astutely points out on ClipperBlog. "it’s Baron’s team now."
Rightly or wrongly, Baron got exactly what he wanted. Everybody played it more graciously this year, but BD’s comment from a few games ago about wanting to run is sufficient evidence for me to conclude that the same power struggle from last year has been bubbling below the surface this year. The two systems were at odds and in practical terms, Baron has won… it’s happened before in the NBA where a player ultimately has more clout than a coach, so it’s not a huge shock for those who follow the game.
But that brings us to what I view as a more interesting line of questioning…
So Baron has no more excuses… am I right?
Hasn’t he been saying (in different ways) that the system has been holding him and the team back?
Will we hold Baron to the same standard that we held Dunleavy?
If the team doesn’t make the playoffs, should we be chanting his name at games, demanding his ouster?
And to go back to an interesting discussion from a few days ago on a different thread, what should be the new standard for the team’s "success"?
Should we all hold the team to the same standard as before?
I honestly don’t know the answers to these questions, but the only thing I do know is that there is a new sheriff in town.
And his name is Boom.
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein
by Another son of Mike Smith on Feb 5, 2010 10:17 AM PST reply actions
I've seen Magic Johnson dish, and Baron Davis is no Magic Johnson
I have a much more cynical question that is in tune with one of the themes of the day and ties into the standard for “success” theme.
Doesn’t having an interim coach send a strong rebuilding signal and make it ok to lose again? Isn’t that what firing the coach every year and a half was about all along?
Isn’t it all about shifting expectations?
Now we can all watch the Spurs game and whatever happens happens. The “witch” is dead.
The Clippers are free to return to go about the business of being the Clippers now that mean ol’ man Dunleavy is gone.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Let it go man
Your petulant ranting about how everyone got what they wanted and now they’ll see is pretty sad.
Like I’ve maintained before, what are you so scared of? That we’ll return to winning 19 games a season? Oh wait, we did that with Dun.
I'm just glad he's gone and wish he'd gone sooner. I can finally
feel good about this team again. And come what may, at least there’s a chance of a better future. There was none with Dunleavy.
What petulant ranting?
What rant? Can you even point to a single comment that could be considered a rant?
Way to attack the messenger…
Here is where I might make a question about how long have you been following the Clippers. Since, again, before MDSr a 19 win season wasn’t the outlier.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Outlier?
First of all, your constant whining about people calling him a “witch” and repeating over and over that people who wanted will now see is pretty sad. You don’t need to repeat yourself that many times in that many different posts.
The irony of you acting the part of the innocent poster being attacked is rich. What “message” are you sharing btw if you’re the messenger?
And your outlier comment unwittingly proves my comment (emphasis on lack of wit). You’re right, the 19 win season wasn’t an outlier. That’s my point. Dun lost just as much as everyone else did. That’s why there’s nothing to fear in firing him.
He brought some good things and I appreciate the 05-06 season and the positive influence he had on Sterling. But his time as a coach was done.
Should read
“repeating over and over that people who wanted him fired will now see how wrong they were…”
"constant whining "
You might need a deep breath here. No comments of mine today have been “constant” anything since there have been only a few and on another of differnet topics including Joe Johnson, Rudy Gay, the salary cap, my state of being and any number of things.
" Dun lost just as much as everyone else did."
This is obviously not true. Noone won like he did. That is completely true.
You are feeling strong emotions today and I get that, but you might want to cool off a bit and read what I write and respond to that instead of the boogeyman you have created of me.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Again
I’ll repeat myself – what “message” are you passing along that makes you a messenger? For a guy who demands people “read” your posts you sure do a worthless job of reading others.
You’re right that Dun won more than anyone else overall. Way to intentionally misread my post to try and make your point. Since we were talking about a 19 win SINGLE SEASON, obviously I meant that he lost in a single season as much as anyone else did. And in the last couple of years, he’s been just as bad, if not worse, than our past bad coaches. That is completely true.
I’m not feeling strong emotions. In fact, given the unusually poor quality of your posts today, I’m guessing you must be suffering from depression now that your favorite person in the world is no longer coach.
YOU were talking about a single 19 win season, who is this we?
I have been talking about history. One is a very narrow view and one is broad, expansive, enlightening and helpful.
Why do you get to define the terms of discourse?
I am sure I can copy and paste a few of your comments from yesterday that were complete jibberish of emotion. You are VERY excited about this. So don’t try to pretend like you are not. This seems to be causing you to have trouble coping with those who do not feel the exact same way. I understand why some would be more comfortable if Clipsnation was an echo chamber; it’s human nature.
Whereas my sig for a long time has been coaches don’t matter. They really don’t. All that matters is the future, and we don’t know the future is better right now. All we have is uncertainty and the lessons of the past. Tragedy and farce and all that.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
More illogical comments
So I was emotional and excited YESTERDAY and that conclusively means that I’m emotional TODAY? Try again.
So the event DID fill you with strong emotions
Interesting.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Yes DID
Do I really need to point out that there’s a difference between past tense and present tense and that you can’t use them interchangeably like you attempted to?
How can you be so sure they have passed?
You have read all my comments today and assumed things that aren’t there. We aren’t always the best judges of ourselves.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
I am rubber you are glue?
Its come to that?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Again, the irony of you saying I can't cope with differing opinions
is rich.
I’ll wait for the next time you attack someone’s commitment as a fan or their intelligence because they don’t agree with you.
When did I question someone's commitment as a fan?
That’s where you are reading things that aren’t there.
As for intelligence, that’s reserved for those that attack me first.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Really guys?
I don’t chime in often, but I read this site frequently, and frankly am finding the back and forth between you guys to be childish, vindictive, and on the whole, rather boring. I enjoy reading what people say on these boards; usually there’s insightful comments and therapeutic venting that is essential to the existence of a Clipper fan. If you guys want to have pointless arguments with each other, please exchange email addresses or something so the rest of us don’t have to suffer through it.
by Z-Bo's Revenge on Feb 5, 2010 1:12 PM PST up reply actions
Sorry but I disagree with that
John R is a complete fool when it comes to the game of basketball. We are all watching him self-destruct because he’s afraid of the big bad world without his fearless leader at the helm.
It’s an interesting metaphor for the Clippers. People who run the team, like John R, historically haven’t had high basketball IQs. MDSr was one of them, but in some ways he was a bit better. Still bad, but a bit better. One successful year in seven. For some like John R that’s good enough. For most of us, it’s not.
I feel sorry for him. But this is a necessary catharsis for a number of us.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
"...at least there’s a chance of a better future. There was none with Dunleavy."
So does that mean that our expectations for success have just been raised?
And if there is a chance of a better future, to whom does that responsibility for realizing that chance lie? Does it fall to Baron? Or does it fall to nobody until next season (and presumably a new head coach) arrives?
Not trying to antagonize, but I believe that is a completely fair question.
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein
by Another son of Mike Smith on Feb 5, 2010 10:54 AM PST reply actions
Especially since I would prefer to look ahead rather than behind and end all of this bickering...
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein
by Another son of Mike Smith on Feb 5, 2010 10:59 AM PST up reply actions
It would be nice
But he is still there. And for a few years after he is gone his ghost will still be around to blame for draft picks and free agent signings.
Much like Obama is increasing his talk of Bush of late, I wouldn’t expect Dunleavy to fall out of anyone’s vocab until at least 2012.
Healing is a process.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
We could see where the franchise was going with Dunleavy, next year
might be worse or it could be better. Chances are it will be better, but that’s my opinion. So, I think “I” can be optimistic again about the team. Having someone coach who’s ineffective is a detriment, having the possiblity that someone will come in and do better is what we all hope for.
Good post
It’s too early to tell I think. Let’s just step back and let things unfold. BD may or may not be too old to run the team for long. Kim Hughes might or might not work out as the head coach. They may find a competent GM. Who knows, they might even sign a big free agent next year without MDSr around (that’s one of the reasons I suspect this move was made).
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Coaches don't matter...
except when they rub their players the wrong way, which is what has been happening. The best coaches tend to be hands off coaches (Phil and Pop). The exception may be Reilly. I don’t consider Larry Brown a great coach. Overrated.
What do all championship coaches have in common? The best players. It’s that simple. Is Doc Rivers a great coach? Heck no. But he had the most talent in 2008. Reilly won with Magic, Worthy and Kareem, then Wade, Shaq, and Bennett Salvatore.
Heck, KC Jones won with Boston in the 80’s. Why? Because he had the most talent and let his players play.
Anyway, the Clippers don’t have championship talent. Dunleavy was only holding them back inasmuch as he was annoying to the players. Nothing Kim Hughes does will make the team better. It will be what he doesn’t do to screw up.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
It's an interesting point...
I’m not sure where I sit in this argument. I mean, sometimes, you need an offensive play… and it’s up to the coaches to install it. But I think in the NBA a coach is more often the author of the defensive scheme.
I know this dates me, but I remember the old Red Holzman-Knick teams. Dick Barnett, the weird, knee-jacking two guard, called all the offensive sets… and they usually had a pretty good collection of offensive weapons. But it was Holzman’s defense that won games. And those were definitely defensive-minded teams.
Of course, there might not be any argument here, because Holzman was definitely not a guy who rubbed his player’s the wrong way.
It's really not that difficult to tell whether a coach is any good
Just watch the team play for a few games. There’s no mysticism to it.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
does hughes give us
all the prescribed Novak-aine level!!?
Roger Sterling: To my knees, Don. They're bringing to my knees!"
Good question
I don’t know if it’s time to display the Novakian card quite yet. It would be nice, however. Is Novak really such a huge liability on defense that he should never play, even when other guys can’t shoot at all. Not that Novak is shooting very well playing only tiny, incidental minutes. I don’t know where Novak stands on my list right now. I’m probably more interested in seeing if Hughes finds more minutes for DJordan and gets more out of him somehow.
Playing a guy like DJordan and developing him is an important thing at this point because the Clips are not going to make the playoffs. They want to gel and play better and get rid of whatever Dunleavy taint is actually on them (can’t say that there really is one: maybe there is, maybe there isn’t), but at this point it’s time to defer to guys with a future.
I really like Camby and have a lot of fun watching him play these days, and the Clippers can be really good at times with him on their roster. But he might be gone, and then we’d see a lot more DJordan, while waiting for Griffin to arrive next year.
I Shouldn't be surprised
That the news has done nothing to bring people together. Afterall, it’s a good time to re-hash old arguments, and create new ones.
Dunleavy was simply able to persuade Sterling into giving him run of the mill. Luckily for us, if he is leaving for good and has lost all power, then he is leaving the team well stocked and with a bright future.
The team obviously needs to find a better leader and sharper in game coach, while adding a player that can close games. Most games are decided by a couple of shots here or there and we have no one that can be counted on at the end of games.
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