Another Game in Texas Tonight
by Steve Perrin on Mar 13, 2010 11:06 PM PST
in News
10 comments
Just a quick aside about a couple of things that caught my eye from another NBA game that took place in Texas tonight.
As one-sided as the Clippers game in San Antonio figured to be, the Knicks game in Dallas figured to be every bit as bad. Dallas was riding a league high 13 game winning streak; New York had lost 17 of 21. And like the Spurs-Clippers series, the Mavs have completely dominated the Knicks in recent years, with Dallas winning 15 of the last 16 meetings including a 50 (!) point win in New York earlier this season. The Knicks had not won in Dallas THIS CENTURY.
So it was sure to be a blowout in Dallas tonight. And indeed it was, only not the one everyone expected. The Knicks beat the Mavs 128 to 94.
I have two points, tangential to the Clippers. One is that you just never know what's going to happen. You think you know, and most of the time that's exactly what happens, but every once in a while something crazy happens. And that's why we'll probably keep watching the Clippers during these final 15 games - because something crazy might happen.
The other point has to do with the Marcus Camby trade. The Knicks leading scorer tonight was Bill Walker, a 2008 second round draft pick who'd been unable to crack the Celtics rotation in a season plus in Boston. The Knicks were able to get Walker AND J.R. Giddens AND a second round pick from Boston for Nate Robinson - a player who didn't figure into their future at any rate. I refuse to believe that Nate Robinson was worth more than Marcus Camby on the NBA's trading floor. And certainly Travis Outlaw and Steve Blake are more established talents and more likely to help a team this season. But who cares? They've got expiring contracts and the odds of them re-signing with the Clippers this off season are slim regardless.
I'd MUCH rather have Walker or Giddens, big time college stars who've not gotten much burn in the NBA - who also happen to have team options on their contracts. If Outlaw or Blake go on a tear to end the season, all they're doing is driving up their price on the free agent market, making it less likely they'll be any long term benefit to the team. If Walker or Giddens starts to light it up (as indeed Walker has), the Knicks can exercise their option and retain one or both on the cheap. If not, they are gone for coveted cap space, which is something the Knicks and Clippers have in common.
Walker is shooting 60% as a Knick, averaging 10 points per game and has topped 20 on 4 occasions. Oh yeah, and he's 22.
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lol It' gets to me to when I look around the league and see that kind of stuff.
I also believe it was alos dumb as hell to not get any prospects with all the expiring we traded that was a backwards move we don’t need max money we need to create the best team possiblle and having a prospect here helps that cause, No one who deserves max money is coming here and we shouldn’t overpay Rudy Gay to do so (reports say he has interest with the Knicks).
Last I think your point of watching games can be blurred here because all the bottom feeder teams are in tank mode to raise their stock. The New York Knicks do not have a first round pick this year so they have no reason to not go full momentum. Knicks are in a place where everyone is just trying to get better before the leave the team or to maintain their spot on the team for next season.Don’t see the Clippers doing anything of interest anytime soon just ride the wave. With all this sucking our draft stock is rising isn’t like it has done much in the past couple of years but it’s nice to think it could.
I'm not sure of your reasoning here, Steve...
Walker and Giddens have been around for two years and couldn’t find floor time with the Celtics or the Knicks. Donny Walsh used them as throw-ins in trades (and the Knicks are super thin on the bench, this year and next). Are you actually familiar with these players or are you using stats as a basis for your argument?
The win in Dallas is exactly what it seems: an outlier.
Steve Blake and Travis Outlaw are borderline NBA starters and came with Bird rights. They are part of Clipper “plan B”. Marcus Camby probably wasn’t. It seems to me Blake, Travis and their Birds are worth far more than Walker and Giddens and their team options. I think we’ll see Walker and Giddens getting plenty of floor time in the next few years: In Europe, playing with the Nick Fazekas’ of the world. Just because they’re young doesn’t make them good.
I think the whole 'Bird Rights' thing is overblown.
The Larry Bird exception simply allows a team to go over the cap to resign it’s own player. Being that the Clippers are going to be under the cap, the Bird rights probably won’t come into play at all. IF the Clippers pay Outlaw and Blake enough that the team is subsequently over the cap, then they’ve handed out some pretty horrendous contracts!
What the Bird rights don’t do, is make a free agent have to come back to your team. In a year where quite a few teams will have cap space, players like Blake and Outlaw will get competitive offers once the big dogs are off the block. If they are like most players, they will want to go where they can either start, have a high probability of making the playoffs, or both. As we know, the Clippers don’t offer that to either of these players. Also, the unsettled environment that they have been in since coming over (no real coach, no gm, lots of losing) probably doesn’t make the Clippers their natural first choice. They aren’t going to sign with the Clippers just because the team has their bird rights.
In Walker, you have a young prospect who might have been a lottery pick if not for a knee injury. He is outproducing either Blake or Outlaw since the trade deadline. He was buried in a Boston rotation that included a couple of all-star guards. In NY, with playing time, he is proving that he can be a solid rotation player in the NBA. At 22, he has potential to be even better. The best part? The Knicks actually have an option on his contract next year for just 850,000 bucks. That’s more valuable than Bird rights.
That's very interesting...
…and you actually seem to know something about Walker that Steve doesn’t (and I certainly don’t) know. (I mispoke about Walsh using he (and Giddens) as throw-ins on trades. Obviously, he’s still with the Knicks, Donny Walsh received him in trade, not the other way around.)
But I still think this is fuzzy thinking. In playing the same game slightly differently (trading away a player for cap space by acquiring Bird rights instead of option contracts), the Clipper get free looks at players who might actually contribute to their team next year.
I understand your argument against overvaluing Bird rights but it’s not at all hard to believe that the Clips might find the best value out there this summer is the return of all or several of their Bird free agents (some combination of Blake, Outlaw, Gooden, Smith, Butler, and Novak)… with the addition of Blake Griffin, a number one pick, and a good coach you might be looking at a strong starting squad and a really deep bench. Iyou chose to resign five of the six you’d probably have to go over the cap. Your Bird rights make that easy.
Of course don’t forget the other possibility… any one of those guys named above might be very valuable in sign and trade situations, probably more valuable than 2nd year, 2nd round rookies on an option year.
Of course, were there any of these option guys available to the Clips in the Camby deal? Did the Clips need or want Walker (a two guard)? We know they need a backup point guard and Outlaw’s certainly worth thinking about. How many 2nd year, 2nd round small forwards with options were available for Marcus Camby?
No way
Bringing back all our free agents would be ridiculous. We have a team that’s gone 4-11 since we traded Camby, do we really want to bring back the same exact group next year?
We should have traded for young, cheap players to get a cheap look at. Walker was OJ Mayo’s high school teammate and before 2 knee injuries was seen as a Vince Carter type player. Trading for Blake and Outlaw never made a ton of sense as it didn’t clear any additional cap space nor did we acquire any prospects (we eventually made cap space but in a separate deal). Now we’re probably going to reshuffle the deck and aside from our 5 signed players everyone else will probably not return next year.
I’m guessing we end up with Andre Iguodala, and maybe bring back one free agent like Rasual Butler and then a bunch of filler. A young enough crew to bring some hope and still good enough to compete for a playoff spot immediately.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Mar 14, 2010 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Iggy?
Have I been out of the loop? How do you figure we’ll be able to swing him? Do you think they’d give him away to lower payroll?
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
I knew it
I knew that stuff about Walker… just didn’t say it. He was recruited to Kansas St along with Beasley, and was having a monster freshman year before he blew out his knee.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Mar 14, 2010 9:04 PM PDT up reply actions
What Pearl said
I’ve more or less said this before, but the Bird rights for a team like the Clippers to a guy like Steve Blake are almost meaningless. They may be under the cap, in which case they’d have to renounce the Bird rights. Even if they go 100% to plan B and try to keep their Bird players, they have no advantage over the rest of the league. It’s not just that so many teams are under the cap – neither Outlaw nor Blake are going to get as much as the mid level exception, so any team in the NBA could sign them. Same with a sign and trade – what’s the point for a guy who’s gonna make $3M next year?
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Mar 14, 2010 9:02 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't know what this team is going to do.
The least these guys could do is finish the last 20 games of the season actually giving a damn. I remember that win streak we had on Feb. 20, 22, and 24. Yeah it wasn’t against the best competition but the new guys were playing well and we thought, prematurely, that these guys should be brought back. Look how great we can play….What happened to that type of play and energy that came with those wins? I don’t believe this team could beat anyone right now. Are they that disinterested? Do they just not give a flying f**k about the image they’re sending.
I don’t even believe any FA would want to come here. You hear players mentioning the Nets and Knicks, but no Clippers. Yeah the Nets are having an abysmal season but that’s all that can be used as firepower to belittle them. Not only do we play poor ball, but we have a TERRIBLE image and a forgettable history that’s always following us and kicking us in the ass. I remember reading articles from actual media outlets pleading to Blake Griffin not to join the Clippers. Just retire or hold out on the draft. You don’t want to go to the Clippers. Your career will die. Who would want to be affiliated with this team, unless they love the idea of making a Cinderella story. But is it worth their trouble?
I’m sick of always looking forward to next year; sick of waiting. I’m f**king ready today. When is this team going to be ready?
by dulciusEXasperis on Mar 14, 2010 9:58 AM PST reply actions
That Camby trade
What were the REAL motivations, I wonder.
1) The extra $ that came with it
2) An ill-conceived attempt to still win this season after the AT trade, maybe to satisfy DTS (“We want to win right now..”)
3) A shot at plan B, Bird rights and all.
4) Keep our lottery pick lower, so we could potentially afford it even after signing a max player.
And of course, maybe there’s a wink-wink deal going on, so we can resign Camby in the offseason (I doubt it).
In any case, it really looks like we’re throwing in the towel now, so that would eliminate reasons 2 and 4. As for reason 3, I’m no longer smitten with either Blake or Outlaw, though it would be nice to keep a capable backup pg. I just hope our main motivation wasn’t the $. :-(
Camby could have gotten us a prospect or two. That might have been the better move, but we still would have needed a good deal of luck on our side. I would have most wanted to trade Camby for an established wing like Butler or Iggy, but maybe that wasn’t realistic.
At this point, I’m just cheering hard for the Knicks, Pistons, and 76ers.
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
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