Poll: Kaman a Bust?
by moKi on Mar 16, 2010 1:04 PM PDT
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PrintSo, upcoming free agency - LeBron stays in Cleveland, Wade in Miami, Joe Johnson reunites with D'Antoni in New York...should the Clippers go after Bosh if he's available and trade Kaman for some sort of SF upgrade over Butler?
(Note: I don't think Rudy Gay deserves a max contract, do you? Thus he is not mentioned here.)
Or hey maybe Butler is good enough to start if surrounded by BD, EJ, BG and Bosh?
If anyone's still around in here, what say you?
PS: Even Yao Ming might want to come to LA for the huge Chinese community here. (But man his knees/feet are a big gamble...which is why I suggest Bosh - think the Olympics really improved his game)
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Not fair to do this after the game last night
People have that fresh in their minds and will say to ship Kaman. I think he is very good as a second or third option. We need to keep him
I guess if you're a recent fan...
But I’ve been a fan of Chris since year one. He was actually one of the main reasons I became a Clipper fan – amazing.
Anyhow, I saw so much potential his rookie year and he definitely has flashes of brilliance, where you think he should be a perennial all star. But then he gets hurt or just looks totally distracted/unmotivated. And he still brings the ball down way too much. Still too many dribbles, still too many chippies missed around the rim…
So…not fair to do this after last night’s game? Maybe. But I’ve been watching him for 7 YEARS and kind of losing hope that he’s going to improve in those areas. At some point as a fan you have to accept the fact that the player you root for is not going to be as consistently good as you hope for.
I've been watching him since year one as well
and I actually like seeing the progression. Its pretty rare for guys to improve this steadily, he could have easily stagnated once he got his big contract a few years ago but he’s actually improved a lot each year (health permitting) since. Is he sometimes frustrating (like blowing a wide open layup yesterday) and causes you to momentarily hate him? Yea, but he’s also a pretty skilled big man in a time where there just aren’t many around. Obviously if you could get Dwight Howard, Yao or someone to replace him you’d do it, but even on a really really good team Chris Kaman can get you 13 pts, 10 rebounds and that’s not something you can find a lot.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Mar 16, 2010 5:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Agree
Just saying the Clips might have a better chance of landing an All Star center in free agency. So if they do, shouldn’t they trade Kaman and do it?
I guess that’s my definition of bust in the title. It’s the Clippers admitting they are open to going for a Yao or Bosh and move Kaman to fill needs. It means Kaman is not the number one choice at center on this team.
Not a knock on how much he’s improved or how good he is individually. A bust as far as fitting into the Clipper’s vision of the future.
Well...
not sure how you mend that fence if we pursue Bosh and if we get turned down we have a pissed off Kaman. I’m wondering if its even possible but could we do a sign and trade of say Kaman for Bosh and DeMar DeRozan? This way I think we can still keep our lottery pick and we have a SF.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Mar 17, 2010 2:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah that could hurt some feelings
But Kaman’s already lost his biggest believer in Dunleavy and Hughes may not be with the team next year as well. So he may already be feeling disconnected now. Anyhow Kaman has always struck me as a guy who cares more about his boat & friends than whether he’s in trade rumors. I think being in the league 7 years, he knows it’s just part of the business.
Plus he’s had good examples in Camby and Gooden for playing hard no matter where you are, making the best of where you are. If he gets his panties in a bunch and dogs it just because his feelings were hurt, that would be really lame and just reflect badly on him I think.
I really don’t see him being hurt that bad. It might sting for a bit but he’d forget it and move forward.
Not that I disagree with your overall point (that guys should play hard because its their job) you should note that Gooden and Camby are playing for a contract next season.
by Michael White on Mar 17, 2010 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions
True
I think Kaman would be playing for a contract soon as well so it wouldn’t look good to dog it one year and then blow up in his contract year – but on the Clippers, things can always get worse I guess.
I think Camby would play at the same level regardless, but maybe I’m naive. He seemed like such a good hustle guy. Hurts to think he was only playing that way this year for a contract.
On a side note, I think Milph or some other broadcasters mentioned that he had incentives in his contract to reach certain numbers which I think is more good than bad. Theoretically it could promote individualism and weaken teamwork but I think in reality it pushes players to play through “headaches” and “flu-like symptoms” and in general is good for the team. Good for him for making sure he has goals to acheive and is rewarded for his hustle.
Plus Camby was diving on the floor risking injury which most times doesn’t show up on the stat line. I think it showed he wasn’t concerned with it being a contract year.
Gooden. No idea.
I think Kaman has the skill set
but he’s tired. He’ll need to work on his stamina during the offseason but he is too talented to give up on.
Just remember how he was playing while the season, somewhat, still mattered
He’s fine. I don’t know whats going on with him. Maybe he’s just trying the “shot your way out of a slump” attempt….who knows.
Hopefully BG brings happier years.
by dulciusEXasperis on Mar 16, 2010 3:25 PM PDT reply actions
This is silly.
Kaman doesn’t need to get better, he just needs a more realistic spot in our offensive order. I believe a healthy Blake Griffin will reduce the need for Kaman jumpers, etc. Kaman 2.0 will fit solidly with a strong core. He’s been asked to do too much, and it’s no surprise it’s not working. EJ needs to be taking those shots, not Kaman.
Don’t trade him!
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's doing down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on Mar 16, 2010 3:32 PM PDT reply actions
I usually agree with you Moki but this is just stupid
Kaman is hardly a bust. He is averaging 20 points a game and until now he was playing great. He will get back into shape soon. I recommend him sitting out one or two games and giving DJ more playing time. We might lose but DJ is always fun to watch.
LeBron or Bust !!!!
It's not necessarily a question of bust or not bust...
The time to trade a player is when his stock is high, so that’s the thought process here I suppose. Obviously it matters whether you think Kaman overachieved or underachieved this season. I don’t think he should be traded, but looking at the poll numbers, it’s split almost down the middle. Not scientific of course, but interesting. That’s why I bumped it to the front page – because people are so split on it.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Mar 16, 2010 5:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Agreed
Not that he should stay, I feel it’s time to trade him. But I do feel that people mistakenly feel that when suggesting that Kaman should be traded, it’s the same thing as saying that he is completely useless. I feel that he is a good center, but just not the right piece for us. In addition, I do find it very interesting that we’re so evenly split on it.
Being from PA there is no other Clipper fans around me other than on this site. With that said, when the conversation comes up regarding Kaman 100% of the Non-Clipper basketball fans I speak to feel the same way I do, even before I make my opinion known. They agree that Kaman is a good center, but it’s time to direct our attention to DJ. Could it be that those that disagree are in denial due to loyalty?
by clippersince94 on Mar 16, 2010 6:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Kaman isn't untouchable
but I think the idea of directing our attention to DJ as our starting center is worrisome. We haven’t won a single game without Kaman this year (0-6… 0-7 if you count the game he got kicked out of at halftime).
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Mar 16, 2010 8:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Agree but also disagree
I agree with basically almost everything you said. Trade when stocks are high.
But, where BCF got this idea of bust or not stems from the title “Poll: Kaman a Bust?” So one of the questions that BCF addressed was the title itself, and I agree, Kaman is not a bust.
true
moKi’s title is a tad provocative.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Mar 16, 2010 10:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah
Guess i could have worded it better, but it’s the doldrums don’t really mind stirring something up the nation a little. Guilty.
But my main points (aside from the title) is that I’ve seen Kaman progress over the years but I’m getting tired of waiting or him to develop CONSISTENCY.
Thus if the Clips had a chance to get an A-level center as a free agent (I never advocated DJ as a starter next season) should the Clips trade Kaman to fill needs while his stock is still high coming off an"All Star" year.
That’s all.
Round Peg Square Hole
I still think the issue with Kaman is we ask him to be the franchise player by necessity even though he’s not good enough to carry that burden. To his credit he kept us competitive for most of the year but if we were expecting him to mainly rebound, play solid D and make a few shots here and there I think he’d be more consistent. He had a very nice run of 20 point games where he was really consistent. I think more than anything Kaman is now just dogging it until the year is over. Maybe he is some sort of super genius that is doing this to depress his trade value so he can’t be traded.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Mar 17, 2010 2:32 AM PDT up reply actions
Thought the same thing
I had the same basic analysis of Kaman, and I was struck by the poll results when I first saw them. It’s odd to see something that’s so even.
I don’t think he should be traded, and if he were to be replaced by DJordan, we would miss him (we already miss Camby). His contract is affordable now for his level of production. But he still hasn’t gotten over the hump and contributed to a winning season, 0506 aside. As well as he has played this year, with some great numbers over a sustained period, he wasn’t able to make up for the absence of Griffin, or the early season Gordon injury, and produce wins. He didn’t rebound as well as he should have in the first part of the season, and now he’s got some new kind of funkiness going.
While some blame Dunleavy or DTS or BDavis for Clipper misfortunes, Kaman has to bear his own share of the responsibility. He has worked hard, obviously, to make himself a much better player, and he can be productive, but he still has a ways to go. He needs to figure out how to become a winner.
by citizen zhiv on Mar 16, 2010 7:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah
Maybe it’s stupid but the basic idea of getting Bosh is probably a lot higher than LeBron, Wade or Johnson… And I don’t see giving max money to Gay…
The title and poll are just for funzies. Relax, I’m not saying we should trade Kaman unless we get a Bosh or Yao. From watching NBATV Bosh is not happy in Toronto and ready to bolt. Don’t hear anything like that about any SFs that we might throw max money at.
You don't trade away legit centers
Really we are asking too much of him. Due to the teams lack of overall talent Kaman is being viewed as a first option, when he really should be a 3rd option type player. This guy would look spectacular if he played with Lebron for instance (how many wide open jumpers would he get on screen and rolls?). I thought he and Griffin displayed some pretty nice chemistry in the preseason and Kaman definitely misses Camby for both his defensive help and also it gave him more room to operate in the post (Gooden hangs around closer to the basket).
FA in 2010.
Kaman in a Brendan Haywood role = solid.
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's doing down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on Mar 16, 2010 6:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Things he can do
Look at his stats from 2 years ago. He used to be a terrific rebounder, the more he focuses on scoring the less emphasis he puts on playing D and rebounding. If he is relegated to a more secondary role hopefully his hustle stats go up.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Mar 16, 2010 8:28 PM PDT up reply actions
That's the problem....'hopefully' is all we have right now.
If a player decides not to play D, the solution isn’t as simple as lets limit his offense and hopefully he’ll have more energy to play D. We need something more than that. A leader in the team, or a good coach (Phil Jackson made Shaq play D when he arrived, and led them to 4 champ).
by RockyMountain on Mar 17, 2010 9:16 AM PDT up reply actions
I said hopefully because you never know how it works itself out
but his history suggests that his rebounding and hustle stats are higher when his scoring is lower. By going back to his previous role that would be the assumed result from Kaman.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Mar 17, 2010 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions
He's certainly not an untouchable
The Clips have the rest of the season to continue to evaluate him and his value to the team. If there is a great deal out there for him— like for an allstar quality small forward — that’s something that certainly should be worth considering.
Jordan is probably a year or two away from being a reliable center. But he makes trading Kaman an option. But again, Kaman shouldn’t be traded unless the Clips can get something REALLY good in return.
this really gets moved to the front?
this of all threads? I think the “Blake Griffin on clearance” thread got robbed on this one
I voted no
but the fact is that we may end up having to choose a center in the draft (or else look foolish, given the available talent). Anything can happen, of course, but I imagine a scenario where the new guy shows promise fast enough, such that Kaman is deemed expendable relative to his still considerable trade value.
BTW, I would say the same thing if the 10th spot landed amidst a pool of talented point guards.
Why bring this up at all? Because I’m currently wrapped up in an internal debate over whether we should tank or not. Disregarding our hole at the wing, if the talent at the 7 spot isn’t much better than at the 10 spot, then it’s arguable that we should keep playing hard and not worry about the lottery. Whoever we get, if we keep him, then we’re likely to end up a nice trade chip. There’s more than one way to pursue a strong wingman.
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
We must tank
Looking at the standings, we have a terrific chance of sliding to the 4th lowest spot, and if that were to happen, there is a high probability that the Clippers would land a top 3 pick (which would guarantee one of Wall, Turner, or Johnson).
by bballanalyst on Mar 16, 2010 9:28 PM PDT up reply actions
50/ 50
But Griffin & Kaman seemed to have a good rapport in the preseason. Willing to wait to see how it all works next year, but if we get a good offer we should consider it.
Another factor is that we’ll need to replace him. DeAndre isn’t ready, but if we are drafting somewhere in the 7-11 range the best position on the board will almost certainly be Centers.
Kaman is not the problem BD is.
We need to get rid of Baron Davis somehow. We need a point guard who brings it every
night not when he feels like it.
Picking up CB certainly sounds enticing but
Kaman is certainly not a bust. He just isn’t meant to be a primary or even secondary option on offensive. The fact that Kaman did so well for a good chunk of the season is admirable but I’m sure it would be best for the team if he was able to have a reduced role in the offense next season. A healthy Blake Griffin and a more offensively capable DJ would do wonders in this regard.
We might be able to get a decent starting SF out of a Kaman trade but it would only be a marginal improvement over Kaman + a FA SF (albeit an overpaid one like Rudy Gay)
It's really two questions
Should the Clippers go after Bosh…yes.
Should the Clippers trade Kaman…no, unless they get Bosh
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Yeah we definitely would trade Kaman if we landed Bosh
And man that would be a fun lineup.
Pg:Baron
Sg:Gordon
Sf:????
Pf:Griffin
C:Bosh
All Baron would have to do is throw lobs and someone would dunk it home. Now imagine if we were somehow able to land Turner. And also moving Kaman would give us the cap space to resign Blake and maybe get more help at SF or SG. And I could totally see Bosh coming here to play with his good friend Baron. This summer is either going to be heartbreaking or awesome.
LeBron or Bust !!!!
by bestclipfan on Mar 16, 2010 10:42 PM PDT up reply actions
That would be a real turn of events
You’d think that Kaman would be good for a solid wing. Funny the thought of reuniting him with Brand in a trade for Iggy.
Others have argued that Bosh really isn’t a center, but the thought of Griffin and Bosh together kind of overwhelms that technicality, doesn’t it?
I like our chances for Bosh better than for James, too. Hmmm.
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
Yeah Bosh seems like a real LA guy
and he is good friends with Baron so that has to be a plus for us. Although I think that he might be leaning towards NY.
LeBron or Bust !!!!
by bestclipfan on Mar 16, 2010 11:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Bosh can't guard Centers
Bosh is too skinny to guard legit centers in this league. I just saw the Raptors play Lakers few nights ago and Bosh got abosolutely owned on defense when he was guarding Bynum or Pau. He couldn’t grab boards over those guys.
Offensively, he is an all star. On defense guarding other PFs, he’s good because he is lengthy and big enough.
What I am trying to say is Bosh is an all star, no doubt. But if we are going to bring him, bring him to play the right position which is PF, and stop asking him to play the Center.
Angels 2009 WS Champs
The Lakers have a huge front court
against about 25 of the other 30 teams in the league this won’t even be an issue. You could even protect Bosh on defense a bit by playing more zone or by switching BG onto the physical centers, since he is built as solidly as anyone. It wouldn’t be ideal (I think Bosh himself won’t want to play center) but if Bosh did come here with the understanding he’d play center then it would work.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Mar 17, 2010 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Trade him!
Potential can take you so far, you must work to live up to that potential. Kaman does not strike me as being that individual. I was a Kaman fan but 7 years have come and gone and he is very frustrating to watch. Fumbled catches and lack of concentration, it is time for him to be traded.
Trade Baron as well, he is lazy and loses focus as well.
more kneejerk crap
move along, nothing to see here
by Joe Wolf's Mullet on Mar 17, 2010 6:42 AM PDT reply actions
Hopefully something else in the front office happens soon
the abyss of hypothetic Clipper rhetoric is tiresome.
Is this a joke?
He’s a borderline All-Star this year….now people want to trade him. Yes, his value is high right now, but his contract is manageable. Plus, he’s one of the most productive Centers in the West, I think he’s lived up to his potential. He was never going to be the next Shaq.
This is going to be my team, and we're going to rise together.
-Clipper Darrell
of course it's a joke
actually…no…it’s not.
I really think all the big names might stay where they are this off season – leaving the Clippers with a chance to get Baron’s internet buddy, Chris Bosh. If they can come to terms with Bosh, don’t they sign him and trade Kaman?
I still don’t understand why the Clippers would attempt to fix the one position that isn’t broken (center) by committing more money to that position, and filling it with a person who isn’t even a center. I know its the thing now to just assume that PF’s and Center’s are interchangeable; notice all the crap about how Kaman isn’t a real all-star even though he was the only guy on the team who was actualy a center.
Honestly, if you wanted to bring in Bosh and trade somebody, it would make more sense to trade Griffin, but none of the people on this board would be willing to trade the “superstar” Blake Griffin.
by Michael White on Mar 17, 2010 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions
I guess position wise
That makes more sense to trade Griffin but I don’t think money wise he’d be able to get you back enough in a trade?
I don’t know much about the numbers much but I think they have to be within a certain range and with Blake being a rookie I don’t think he (relatively) makes that much?
Good point though. Bosh and Kaman could be pretty awesome. But then a more running type team with Blake and Bosh could be more fun to watch…
Fun to watch is on the low end of the importance scale for me. In terms of numbers, it would work if you wanted to trade Griffin. If the Clippers moved Griffin for, say a first round pick the next year or something, then the Clippers would have the cap space to offer Bosh max money and keep Kaman and Baron. At least that team would have an identity, a veteran team making a push, with young players like Gordon (who can contribute in the NBA) and Jordan (who is still a project) rounding out the squad. You would still have a problem with SF, but you’d have to hope that upgrading from Marcus Camby to Chris Bosh would be enough to overcome that deficiency.
BTW, I would not trade Bosh for Griffin (or more to the point trading away Griffin and signing Bosh.) I like Bosh fine I guess, but I’m a little leery that his breakout year this year is more than just a push during his walk year so that he can get max value on the open market. I’d keep Griffin and hope for the best. I actually do have a plan for what I would do if I were GM of the Clippers, but I’ll need to think it out more and write it in a fanpost (I know the suspense is killing you.)
by Michael White on Mar 17, 2010 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions
Of Course
Agree – Winning trumps fun to watch all day – but it will be a Clippers organization next season with (possibly) a New GM, a New Coach, and with a possible 8 – 10 New Guys learning to play with each other.
Next season could end up being a little like watching the OKC Thunder in it’s infancy. So playing solid but fun to watch bball would be great for fans I think. If they had a chance to win in the last couple minutes of every game, that would be a great improvement right there.
I’m not saying any of these scenarios is great. Just started with the possibility that the positions we need to fill might not be available through free agency this off season. If there are no great SFs that want to come here, none that we want to offer max money to…do we trade someone?
Gordon and Griffin seem too early to trade away. Baron’s contract might be too hefty in next year’s shrinking cap (but Zach’s contract seemed impossible to unload as well – so what do I know). So I guess that leaves Kaman or maybe DJ?
Looking forward to reading your “If I were GM” post.
If there are no great SFs that want to come here, none that we want to offer max money to…do we trade someone?
Or, we just wait a year (hint: a really good SF is going to be a free agent the following year and hopefully everyone else will have blown all their capspace overpaying for Gay, Bosh, Stoudemire, Boozer and Johnson.) Just because we have all this money doesn’t mean we need to spend it immediately. Besides, next year will be Griffin’s first look at competitive basketball in a long time. Waiting a year to spend the cap space seems like a prudent thing to do, considering we really have no idea what Griffin will be able to accomplish in the NBA.
Law of dimishing returns.
Is a lineup of (a)
Baron
Gordon
filler SF
Griffin
Bosh
better than a lineup of (b)
Baron
Gordon
filler SF
Griffin
Kaman.
Even if you think lineup (a) is better than lineup (b) the question is by how much. Is the upgrade enough between the two to warrant trading Kaman’s reasonable contract for a max contract for Bosh? The answer for me is “no.” I don’t give a max contract this offseason to a guy unless their name is Wade or James.
by Michael White on Mar 17, 2010 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions
I guess it would depend on
What the Clips could get for Kaman. I don’t know what that magic name is but I would suspect it to be in the Granger level to pull the trigger…
I guess waiting another year isn’t a bad idea either but you saw that ridiculous memo firing Dunleavy. “We want to win now – willing to spend unlimited resources – blah blah blah”.
Sounds like the Clips want to blow their wad now. So if they are going to throw max money at someone – I say go for the best free agent available regardless of position and then trade to get what you need to fill the roster out.
Maybe sign and trade Baron and our first pick this year for a couple of players or an All Star?
Arrggg. The possibilities are just too vast at this point…
don’t know what that magic name is but I would suspect it to be in the Granger level to pull the trigger…
Oh, well if that’s what we are talking about, ya that works. That won’t happen (Granger is Indiana’s star) but if that’s the haul we get for Kaman, I’d take it. I still a) don’t want to replace a 7 foot center with a 6’10 power forward and b) don’t want to give the 6’10 guy playing out of position max money; but at least in this scenario played out it would make the team better. But again, Granger is not being swapped for Kaman.
Basically my idea is this:
Trade Baron for Eddy Curry: as madglove stated before, if NYK sign Amare and Johnson, they will need a Baron Davis to run the point.
Trade our Minnesota pick for Rubio: Also, we need to convice Rubio to come stateside since next season would essentially be a rebuilding year which it will be anyway because our starting PF hasn’t played a game in 18 months.
Next year free agency, use cap space we currently have plus savings from Eddy Curry expiring to sign Carmelo Anthony and fill out the roster.
I’m not happy that we resign ourselve to another year of rebuilding (especially since it is another year in Kaman’s prime) but I don’t see any way around it. Griffin will have to work the kinks out, and we’ll still have nobody at SF and the bench will probably still blow.
by Michael White on Mar 17, 2010 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions
Good point
Kaman’s prime years are getting wasted. And big guys just don’t age as gracefully as PGs (Nash, Kidd, Billups…)
At least DJ is only 21!
Melo!
Wow never thought of that one. I guess because of all the battles the Clips had with Melo and his bad attitude, getting tossed – I never really liked him. But I heard the Olympics had a big affect on him too so maybe he’s got a better attitude now.
But would he want to come to LA??? Seems just as likely as LeBron or Wade coming to the Clips – kinda low.
I like the Rubio idea but would hope it doesn’t end up an Al Thornton to Travis Outlaw kind of deal where you think it’s better but just ends up around the same or worse.
Creative thinking though – starting over – that would definitely make Kaman the veteran of the group.
I think Carmelo is more likely
to come to LA. Lebron is so damn good that it doesn’t matter where he goes. It’s only a matter of time till he gets his ring. Wade already has his ring. Carmelo will go where 1) he gets paid (which we can offer him max money) 2) best supporting cast (Griffin, Gordon and Rubio sounds good to me) and 3) being in a big city like L.A makes him more marketable.
Plus, I admit to being a huge fan of Carmelo’s game. Obviously, Wade and James are worth signing now. Any of the others this offseason, not so much.
by Michael White on Mar 17, 2010 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah It's probably 2% Wade to 1% LeBron now
Miami might fall out of the playoffs, Wade might want better guys around him and look at our roster….
Cavs looks so good, so deep right now it’s ridiculous – BD, EJ and Kaman look like peanuts compared to what he’s got over there right now – and Shaq’s coming back and maybe big Z too???
Unbelievable.
Is their roster so good?
I think Jamison is pretty good, of course he couldn’t help the Wiz avoid being a disaster the past 2 years. Parker and Moon are specialists, Shaq and Big Z are a combined 70+ years old, the list goes and on. I think he has a decent bunch but without Lebron that team doesn’t even make the playoffs (the Cavs finally won a game without Lebron, which made them 1-9 I think in the past 10 games without him).
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Mar 17, 2010 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Melo coming here
is about the same as LBJ coming here. It’s a terrible idea to tank another year for the chance to go after one free agent. I already disagreed on your view on Bosh (he is a max player) but yes, the rest of the market (Boozer, Amare and Gay are going to be overpriced). If we can’t get LBJ, Bosh or Wade then we should just make trades. There will be numerous teams seeking cap relief this off-season or we can go after a few mid range guys like J Chill.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Mar 17, 2010 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions
I am in no way suggesting the Clippers tank next year.
I acknowledged that I would sign Wade or James, just not Bosh.
by Michael White on Mar 17, 2010 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions
You above Eddy Curry trade idea
suggested otherwise?
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Mar 17, 2010 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Rebuild yes. Tank no
Look, at least its a plan. Go young, build around Rubio, Griffin and Gordon, develop DJ and have cap space the following year for a max offer to Melo.
As opposed to keeping Baron (which I am fine with BTW) but making the wrong free agent signing (like JJ or Gay at the max) which will make the Clippers better in the short run but that’s about it.
by Michael White on Mar 17, 2010 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Well I agree with the fact we don't pursue Gay and even JJ
not unless there is some weird market issues this summer and those guys get less than the max contracts but JJ seems like a lock to get one either in ATL or NY. The recent news from Memphis is a good thing, that should hopefully scare the Clippers front office away from pursuing Gay. We go for the big 3 and failing that we sign a J Chill or make a ZBo type trade ourselves to a team looking for cap relief. I wouldn’t mind trading Baron but that more or less depends on if we have a viable replacement option at PG. Having a Sebastian Telfair type as our starter is awful as we witnessed earlier this year.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Mar 17, 2010 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions
So, what exactly is wrong with my plan then? We get the replacement in Rubio and see what he can do. We keep the pressure off BG by basically letting him use this year to get used to the speed of the NBA as opposed to if we are going for it this year we will need to have a platoon partner for BG if (as I have hypothesized in the past) he has a problem staying out of foul trouble in his first year in the NBA. We unload Baron to the 1 team that would arguably take him without us giving in a first round pick too. And we have a ton of flexibility with the cap going forward, and do so without surrendering any of our draft picks (with the exception of the one being used to get Rubio of course.)
As I acknowledged above, the biggest thing I would be disappointed with is wasting a year of Kaman’s prime, but short of getting Wade and Lebron, the Clippers won’t be winning a championship next year anyway. I think my plan puts the team on the path of bulding towards a winner (of course with the caveat that it relies heaviliy on 2 unprovens in Rubio and Griffin.)
I agree with you 100% in your position that trading Baron and Kaman should only be done if a viable replacement is involved.
by Michael White on Mar 17, 2010 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Rubio
not sure if you have been following him at all but he’s been terrible this year. Not to mention he still has at least a year before he can workout a buyout I believe so we wouldn’t see him next year anyways.
http://www.euroleague.net/competition/players/showplayer?clubcode=jov&pcode=LFW
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Mar 17, 2010 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Contract issues aside...
have you watched Rubio at all this year? (I genuinely don’t mean that to be condescending…I am actually curious). I know that stats don’t look great, but I have watched him play quite a few times this year thanks to nba tv and dvr. The kid is better than the numbers reflect.
Rubio is 19 years old, playing on one of the best clubs outside of the United States. He is splitting time with Juan Carlos Navarro, playing about 20 mins a game. In that time he is shooting about 39% from the floor, 31% from 3, and 95% from the free throw line. He is also getting the better part of 5 assists a game. In my opinion, the numbers aren’t too terrible(particularly for a 19 yr old). And what I really like about Rubio is what I liked about Shaun Livingston, his vision. The kid is a world class passer. His jumpshot, could stand to improve, but I have faith that a 19 yr old can still develop one, in fact i completely expect it.
I think that Rubio really has what it takes to be a special player in the NBA, and if he can be had I would snatch him up in a heartbeat. “Writers” like Bill Simmons who look at Rubios numbers (and even misreport them…Simmons suggested he was shooting 30% in his latest mailbag) and declare that he is a bust are ridiculous.
I've only seen highlights
and its good to hear he passes the eyeball test but I think his numbers are worrisome. He has a slow release on his shot and he isn’t terribly athletic. Maybe in the right system he can flourish but in he’ll have more trouble in half-court sets. He does have good court vision and he has some flashy moves but he won’t be able to come in and be a good starting PG for a couple of years.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Mar 18, 2010 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Granger is a SF
and if we got Bosh and traded Kaman for Granger we’d have probably the best starters in the NBA.
SG – EJ
PG – Baron
C – Bosh
PF – BG
SF – Granger
The only real issue would be durability and the fact we’d have no bench… but that’s kind of the game in a nutshell if your team isn’t over the salary cap.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Mar 17, 2010 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions
So, are you agreeing with me? I said that I would trade Granger for Kaman and sign Bosh…
My point was that Indiana wouldn’t do it, not that I or LAC wouldn’t do it.
by Michael White on Mar 17, 2010 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions
I'd do the Granger trade in a heart beat
if we got Bosh already. Otherwise we can’t trade our center for a SF. The replacement value between DJ and Kaman is probably far wide than the replacement value of Granger and our next SF I would think.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Mar 17, 2010 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions
The replacement value between DJ and Kaman is probably far wide than the replacement value of Granger and our next SF I would think.
Agreed.
by Michael White on Mar 17, 2010 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions
and of course
Indiana probably wouldn’t go for it. Although they do seem to have a vast collection of tall white guys so maybe that’s what they are going for? They need to sign Steve Blake and JJ Reddick this offseason and see what happens! It would be pretty retro and isn’t that what’s popular these days?
SG – Reddick
PG – Blake
C – Kaman
PF – Murphy
SF – Dunleavy
Bench – Jeff Foster, Psycho T, Travis Diener, Josh McRoberts
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Mar 17, 2010 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Brilliant
I’d watch this team just for the novelty of it all. I can totally imagine Psycho T, Jeff Foster and Chris Kaman running into each other at full speed.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Mar 17, 2010 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Bosh is a max contract player
Let’s see… he turns 26 this month so he’s not even in his prime. He has been a very good player for a number of years and this year is hardly a huge bump in production (he’s averaged 22.5 the past 4 seasons) so him averaging 24 pts this year is nothing unusual. You put him next to BG and you have a terrific front court for the next 5 years.
We know the floor for BG, he’s going to be a good team defender, solid passer (for a big) and excellent rebounder. If he plays starter minutes he’ll be a 14-10 rebound guy from the start.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Mar 17, 2010 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Your GM plans
I’d probably have to start a group called fire Michael White the day after you were hired ;)
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Mar 17, 2010 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Ridiculous idea
Centers and PFs are interchangeable in the new NBA. There are only 3 or 4 legitimate post centers left in the NBA that you’d need a true center to guard. Bosh is significantly better than Kaman in every facet of the game and would provide us a huge boost.
Trading Griffin is terrible, aside from the fact he’s a standout kid and already being groomed as the face of the franchise, he also has a great contract (thanks to the rookie scale) and is just 21. Youth and upside speak loudest, especially for teams coming off 3 consecutive 50 loss seasons.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Mar 17, 2010 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions
He's not a boderline all star
People should get over the man crush of kaman. He’s not that good i wish pat riley had taken kaman so we could have gotten wade. Kaman he like bynum (hate the lakers by the way) one day he’s good next day he’s bad we need somebody who does the intangibles like an hortford. Chris Kaman is being payed like’s he an all star (so many players are) but he’s not even close he seems to care more about being an all star then proving he is one. I always thought he be like top 3 centers in the league that’s just not going to happen. I would not have a problem with him if he had the letter d in his name any where. Watch him on rotation i dont think he’s ever been dunked on either whcih is a bigger problem (means he does’nt protect the rim)
l've said this every week
Trade him he plays no d not 2.0 or 5.0 or what ever. He has all the tools but is lazy as hell. Why is it most of the centers have a career game against him. May be playing for us has made him hate his life. I don’t know all i know is we should pay chris bosh or david lee somebody who’s going to get 17 pts and 10 rebounds with out having to shoot a bunch of shots. I really think Kaman just gets confused with what ever he doing.
Srsly?
I don’t know all i know is we should pay chris bosh or david lee somebody who’s going to get 17 pts and 10 rebounds with out having to shoot a bunch of shots.
David Lee: 1,040 FGA through 68 games = 15.2FGA
Chris Bosh: 980 FGA through 59 games = 16.6 FGA
Chris Kaman: 1,008 FGA through 63 games = 16.0 FGA
Your implication is wrong.
Again.
Finally a voice of reason.
The fact of the matter is that there are only two types of centers in the NBA. Type A is a defensive center who can obstruct shots and rebound, but lacks any real shooting ability other than dunks and tip ins. Type B is too small to rebound and out-muscles his opponents on the inside, so instead focuses on stretching the D with a jumpshot and a soft touch around the basket but lacks the defensive intensity of Type A. There’s no real center in the NBA today that embodies both Type A & B. (See Olajuwon, Hakeem)
The problems is this; when your jump shot stops falling then what good are you? For a center that can’t rebound or block shots, or even play defense with any intensity, what good is he when his jump shot isn’t working? Being able to score means nothing when you are getting scored on the next trip down the floor.
This is the same problem with Baron Davis but that is a whole other story. The clips need to trade Kaman and Baron and start completely fresh with a young talented team, much like Oklahoma City has done. They need to replace them with players that are not defensive liabilities but are still good enough to contribute on the offensive end.
P.S. DO NOT TRADE GRIFFIN!!!
Kaman can rebound
he’s a solid if not good rebounder. He can also block some shots (what happened to the one from 2 years ago though that almost blocked 3 shots a game?). He also has a nice array of post moves. I think he’s a decent defensive player and he does try (he gets dunked on a lot, part of it is he tries to block a lot of shots that a lot of guys would just let go uncontested). So I wouldn’t consider him or Baron defensive liabilities. Baron is probably our 2nd best player defensively now.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Mar 17, 2010 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Rebounding is pure effort
It doesn’t matter how tall you are all you need to rebound is a big body and the willingness to use it. Kaman had 3 rebounds last game, and 3 rebounds in the game before that. In his last 5 he’s averaged 5.6 and has only 1 block in those 5 games. When is it acceptable for a center to do this? Any 6’10 jackass could walk on the floor and box out and get this many rebounds. Which makes that 6’10 jackass just as good on defense as Chris Kaman. This is unacceptable behavior and to let it continue is also unacceptable. Let’s not even get into Kaman’s inability to move laterally, all i have to say is Kris Humphries. Think about Kris Humphries for a while…
by ChrisPaulFTW on Mar 17, 2010 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions
So his recent stretch pretty much invalidate his entire career?
because he has been for his career a solid rebounder. He averages 10 rebounds per 36 minutes for his career, which is a good number. That’s about the same rate as Andrew Bynum, Deandre Jordan, Andrew Bogut and even better than Marc Gasol. He’s not the rebounding machine that Dwight Howard is but he’s hardly a bad rebounder.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Mar 17, 2010 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions
I think it says a lot about his work ethic
I think these last 5 games speak loudly to his type of character on the floor. Do you really want your center to think it’s acceptable to play like this? Plus in Kaman’s entire career he has only averaged over 10 rebounds once. It’s that exact mentality that he can get away with being lazy that makes him a bad center. Kaman will never have the mentality of a Marcus Camby or Zach Randolph for that matter to just go and get the ball. If you want to make the playoffs then stick with Kaman and see what happens, if you want to actually win in the playoffs you are going to need a center that can actually and willingly get rebounds.
by ChrisPaulFTW on Mar 17, 2010 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Last time I checked...
Kaman was our center when we went to the semi-finals in 05-06. Zbo hasn’t been to the playoffs since his 2nd year in the league and he’s never won a playoff series. Camby hasn’t won a playoff series since he was on the Knicks years ago. Doesn’t mean they are bad players, just not sure your argument is based on any actual facts. Kaman has the same rebounding rate as ZBo for his career (10.2 to 10.1) so not sure where you are going with there either. Camby is a better rebounder than Kaman, no surprise there, Camby has been one of the top rebounders in the league for a decade.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Mar 17, 2010 5:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Let's see
Zbo has averaged over 10 rebounds 5 times in his career, Camby has done it 9 times and it’s not like i’m comparing him to all-start caliber players here. I’m comparing him to players that would be lucky if they made the all-star team. So basically Kaman is a third rate player that you want to build around? What exactly has he proven in his career that is worth keeping him around? Because he forgot how to play defense, he can’t pass, he barely rebounds, and he can’t move laterally. Basically Kaman has a jump shot and that’s worth building around?
BTW that 05-06 semi-finals year happened to be on the back of Elton Brand not Chris Kaman. Kaman was playing clean up back then.
by ChrisPaulFTW on Mar 18, 2010 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions
You changed the question
You asked do I really want to see us make the playoffs and see what happens (this is a great “problem” to have in Clipperland, at least were in the playoffs in this hypothetical!) and we have seen it happen before and what happened is we advanced. He did his job, heck he got molested by Reggie Evans for his trouble…
Kaman if he played as many minutes as ZBo would average the same amount of rebounds based off their career averages. Look it up, its a verifiable fact. He’s certainly not a third rate player, he might be best suited for the third option on your team instead of your primary option but hey were a potential 50 loss team for a reason.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Mar 18, 2010 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions
If he's our second best d player or 1st
We got issues if that’s the case per 42 min a game for centers he has the 6th worst block shot ratio out of 17 elegible centers. Not to mention he ranks 3 in total mins. This is how bad he’s playing he averages the same amount of blocks per game as mehmet okur who we know doesnt play any d and he plays 6 more min a game then him. Lets go to rebounds he ranks 7th overall but the only guy that does a worst job at rebounding with how many mins playing a game is brooke lopez.The fact that he’s not in the top 4 is just sad seeing he plays a whole bunch more mins then brendan haywood.He’s no 2 in turn overs he shoots the most shots but has one of the worst field goal % ( to many jumpers not enough easy baskets and dunks to many miss layups) but he’s tied for most points. For the most part if you were a gm and saw this what would you say. Let’s keep him cause he sucks ass most of the time but is good some times. If kaman is as good as some of you think why have his averages gone down instead of up.Since camby is gone you think he would get more blks and rebounds.
Not to mention
If Baron is our second best defensive option? Baron “oh shit i got screened” Davis we are in deep deep trouble
by ChrisPaulFTW on Mar 17, 2010 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions
I’d say keep him because he’s currently one of the best players on the NBA.
Just curious about the “fans” who so dislike the best, most productive Clipper players – what is it that you like about the team? Is it the uniforms, the owner or do you just like constant player turnover?
Clippers off season to do list:
1) hire Mark Warkentien (denver’s FA gm).
2) let him choose the coach.
3) trade Baron and our ‘10 pick for Andre Iguodala and Jrue holliday..
4) re-sign Blake, Rhino and Butler.
‘10-’11 clippers line up
PG- Jrue Holliday / Steve Blake
SG- Eric Gordon / Butler
SF- Iguodala / Butler
PF- Blake Griffin / Craig Smith
C- Kaman / D.J.
P.S. i would keep Kaman because Im not sure you would get top value for him. Especially not Bosh in a sign and trade. Kaman just does’nt get the respect he deserves and I think having Kaman in the middle will make it easier for Griffin next year. Remember he’s still gonna be a rook next season.
I'm really hoping we get JVG
His teams have always won save that year the Rockets lost Tmac and Yao for a good part of the year. His teams are always good at defense and if he can make a team with Yao and McGrady a top defensive team then he can make our crew better.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Mar 18, 2010 6:11 PM PDT up reply actions
The Problem
with Kaman is that when he’s not playing well, he f***ing sucks. He turns the ball over a million times, he misses everything, he doesn;t rebound he doesn’t do shit.. he’s only valuable when he’s hitting the jumper.
We don't gotta get rid of Kaman
We just need to take him out of the overall offense. Right now he is supposed to be our top scorer @ 20 points a game. These are points that he has to work for by earning them in the post and then taking some 18ft shots ect. Kaman needs to average 14points and 10 rebounds next season. half of those points should be put backs.
Of course, maybe next season he will fix all his stupid mistakes like turning the ball over and become a more complete center. Even if he doesn’t, I don’t think we can get anything better by trading him.
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