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Josh Childress - For Less than the MLE? I Did Not See That Coming

There's a lot I don't understand.  I freely admit that.  For instance, how can light be both a particle and a wave?  Or fried ice cream.  How can you fry ice cream?

When free agency started, the early contract signings were all through the roof.  Drew Gooden 5/$32M, Amir Johnson 5/$34M, Rudy Gay and Joe Johnson maxed out, Paul Pierce 4/$61M, etc.  For the Clippers, the fact that they needed a quality small forward, and that the top names in that category were being paid these un-FSM-ly sums, the implication was that it was unlikely they would be able to fill the position on the cheap.

With LeBron James never a realistic option and Gay thankfully off the market, many in Clips Nation turned their attention to a sleeper candidate, who wasn't really that much of a sleeper at all:  Josh Childress.  Childress was a restricted free agent who had left the Hawks to play in Europe two summers ago.  The original concern that the Hawks would match any reasonable offer went away when Johnson signed his mega-deal - no way the Hawks could actually afford to pay Childress at that point.  But the fact remained that if Travis Outlaw was worth 5/$35M to the Nets and Wes Matthews was worth 5/$33M to the Trailblazers, then Childress was bound to get a LOT more than that.  Right?

Star-divide

Clips Nation cap watchers were doing the math on the Ryan Gomes, Randy Foye and Brian Cook deals, trying to figure out if the team still had enough money to sign Sofoklis Schortsanitis AND make a competitive offer to Childress.  Would $8M per year be enough?  Or would it take $9M or $10M? 

So the 5/$30M contract that Childress reportedly is signing with the Phoenix Suns is DEFINITELY another thing that I don't understand.

What happened?  Did I overvalue Josh Childress?  If so, I wasn't the only one.  On Tom Ziller's original list of the top 50 free agents this summer, he listed Childress 11th, after 10 guys who each signed for at least $75M.  That's also about where Chad Ford of ESPN (insider requierd) had Childress ranked.  Now, I'll admit that there was a drop off after the top ten guys, but there are also many players who got more money (both per year and total) than Childress at the end of the day. 

It's entirely possible that NBA GM's are just as dumb as they've always been.  Childress' game is not flashy - for instance, he scores fewer points than Travis Outlaw.  But he does it in a much more efficient manner than Trout, while also being a better rebounder, defender, passer...  well, pretty much everything.  Nonetheless, points per game has always been the stat that seems to get the attention and the money, and while I thought that was changing, maybe the change is coming more slowly than I believed.

Or maybe it's a case of "out of sight, out of mind".  Childress has been playing for Greek team Olympiakos the last two seasons.  Did his absence from the NBA depress his market value?  When JChill opted for Greece two summers ago, it was because he couldn't get a contract higher than the 5/$36M that the Hawks had offered.  That was in a market where very few teams had money to spend.  Two years later, with teams across the NBA awash in cap space and wielding huge trade exceptions, Childress actually takes LESS?  Sure, he's two years older, but simple economics would seem to indicate that he'd get more, and certainly everything else we've seen this summer has indicated a signficant inflationary trend (Hakim Warrick, 1/$3M 7/09 vs. 4/$18M 7/10; Drew Gooden, 1/$45.M 7/09 vs. 5/$32M 7/10). 

So, no, I don't get it.  Were the Clippers in there, offering more for Childress?  I don't know, but it seems to me they should have been.  Unfortunately, I know very little about the players the Clippers may have targeted this summer.  It's also possible that JChill took less to play in Phoenix than he might have gotten elsewhere.  It wouldn't be the first time, as Phoenix has a player-friendly rep from way back (think Danny Manning).  I'm not sure the Robert Sarver Suns deserve that same rep, but these impressions can be long-lasting (which is why Donald Sterling will never rehab his image, no matter if or how much he changes). 

So it all seems strange and mysterious that Childress could end up in Phoenix at such a seeming discout.  What gives?  What are we missing?

Enter Lon Babby conspiracy theory.  Tom Ziller (the same guy that ranked Childress 11th among free agents) gives a nice, high level account of how Babby, the agent for Hedo Turkoglu and until recently for Childress, seems to have had a massive conflict of interest in the recent Suns transactions.  You see, Babby is the likely successor to Steve Kerr as GM in Phoenix. 

While Sarver chooses his GM -- a search in which Babby, Hedo's agent, is said to be the favorite -- coach Alvin Gentry is making these major, impactful decisions for the Suns. Babby surely sees a grand opportunity to set Hedo up well, with a competitive team who boasts a superlative point guard (Steve Nash) and a breezy, personable coach (Gentry). Raptors GM Bryan Colangelo doesn't have to be asked twice to sign off on such an agreeable deal. So the only folks to convince are Gentry and -- one would assume -- Sarver.

In other words, one man who could soon be answering to the agent pitching the trade and another who wants to hire the agent.

That may explain the Hedo angle, but I don't quite follow the Childress involvement - though Ziller did tweet this a little later:

Rejected headline for that Babby piece: "Did Hedo eat Josh Childress' big payday?"

It's all very intriguing, but I'm not sure I see a smoking gun here.  Something doesn't quite fit.  For one thing, if Babby is Childress' former agent, where is his current agent in all of this?  Talk about a guy with an interest in JChill getting the biggest possible payday.  As with the Brand/Falk situation in 2008, I find it hard to believe that these players can be so completely manipulated by their agents (who I readily accept as pure evil) that they lose sight completely of their own interests.  Childress went to Stanford (Brand to Duke) - he's not Lon Babby's puppet.

Just put the whole affair on the very long list of "Things I don't understand."

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I thought MLE

was like 5.7 or something. Wasn’t he had at a little more than mid level exception at 6 a year?

by JackduhSun on Jul 12, 2010 12:37 PM PDT reply actions  

Tough to say

You can compare first season or total value, it depends what you want to compare and what matters for the discussion.

All depends on how it is structured.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 12, 2010 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Raises

It could be for more than the MLE this year, if it doesn’t include raises. But a 5 year deal that starts at the MLE and includes the allowable raises comes in at maybe $34M (without doing all the math right now). So if it’s really 5/$30, it’s less than he could make on an MLE deal. More importantly, less than many lesser players (IMO): Gooden, Outlaw, Matthews, etc.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Jul 12, 2010 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Are you in Vegas already?

Double-down!

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 12, 2010 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sigh

as President of the Chill Out In LA campaign I’m depressed over this news. I was at least hoping some team like the Knicks would overpay him then I could cope with not having him in LA but this is just too much. I’m going to go burn my Clippers gear.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Jul 12, 2010 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

And you all got pissed

at my prior post re management and signing Foye, Gomes and Cook. Everyone thought that a big move was coming for the likes of, oh say, JChill? Ha, I say, Ha. Now who is the next target, the unstable Josh Howard or Marquis Daniels. Will the front office taut that as a significant signing. Here we go, mired in mediocrity again. Depressing. Where’s my shotgun!!!

by daclipjoint on Jul 12, 2010 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

so...

is mike miller or prince still available??? do we even have a chance with anyone of these guys?

by mujicas_clippers on Jul 12, 2010 12:39 PM PDT reply actions  

No on Miller

Yes on Prince being available. Doubtful that the Clippers have the space left or if all Detroit wants is a TPE since Prince is expiring anyway and these are largely equivalent.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 12, 2010 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

No on Miller??

But the Clippers are so much more enticing than Miami! I mean, he could start for us, while he’d have to play behind LeBron James or Dwyane Wade in Miami. It’s obvious, really…

by Erik O on Jul 12, 2010 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

They are supposed to be 99% done on the contract

Seems like the big 3 took a little less to make room or something? I stopped watching some time ago.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 12, 2010 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

I figured

He’s buddies with LeBron, right? Didn’t even need to have a summit to guarantee THAT signing.

by Erik O on Jul 12, 2010 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Avail

Prince is Prince. He’s a Piston, not a free agent. Might be avail, might not. Clippers can’t afford a cap absorb trade and still sign Sofo.

Miller signed with Miami.

Ronnie Brewer is the only thing approaching a quality SF left.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Jul 12, 2010 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Is the Miller signing official?

If we threw all 10 mil of our cap space at him, he’d be paid more AND starting here as opposed to taking less to win in MIA. Not saying he’s NOT going to the Heat, but after that three hour meeting we had, isn’t he still a possibility at this point?

"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's doing down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.

by Gordon for President on Jul 12, 2010 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Lurking

Out there.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 12, 2010 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Haven't heard anything on the McGrady front...

anyone hear anything? He seems to be the ideal candidate.

1) Willing to sign a short deal to re-establish value
2) Should be a hit at the box office
3) Plays a position of need

I know he is doing a lot of charitable work in Africa. Make he is hanging out with Baron?

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Jul 12, 2010 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

You forgot...

4) Potentially destroy the development of our youngsters by filling the locker room with exactly the opposite of what we need.

Put it this way, my friends in Houston, who are HUGE Rockets fans, have never liked T-Mac. Even when he was in his prime, they still had a ton of complaints. It wasn’t like the Kobe-love here in LA. Without the talent part, there doesn’t seem to be much else to T-Mac, which is sad, given that he used to be my favorite player.

by Erik O on Jul 12, 2010 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Short timer, little money

The key is “willing to sign a short deal to reestablish value.”

If he’s a 1-year hired gun, with a team option on the 2nd year or maybe a mutual option, it might be a good deal. His status would be very different from the guy that he was in Houston. I don’t think he would destroy anybody’s development as a short-term player. But it’s hard to tell what his locker room attitude and approach to the game might be.

by citizen zhiv on Jul 12, 2010 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

Heard the opposite elsewhere

they loved him in Orlando until he forced a trade (the GM got death threats). He was respected and liked in the Rockets locker room.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Jul 12, 2010 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yea, Yao definitely loved him

I was mostly referencing to whether he was loved by fans (i.e. stuff that makes us love Steve Novak more than Baron Davis a lot of the time, but that we always found in Elton, before he became FElton).

by Erik O on Jul 12, 2010 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Fans loved him too

he was very popular (popular in China too). Teams didn’t like the injuries but they were legitimate injuries.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Jul 12, 2010 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Who else is there though?

McGrady would take a 2 year 15 million deal (with the 2nd year being a team option) I would think. And he’s less of a problem than say Josh Howard.

I’m giving up on this team if we sit on the cap space, at least pick up some draft picks with the space.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Jul 12, 2010 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

How long have you been a Clipper fan

If it’s as long as I suspect you won’t be giving up on this team. Aren’t you a season ticket holder?

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Been a fan since 1989

And I will give up on this team. I had the FA in 2010 as my signature for over a year for a reason. This team has to give me some reason for us to even care. Really if they don’t give a *&$% about winning, why should we?

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Jul 12, 2010 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

I get it but

why didn’t you quit during the MDSr era?

Or the 15 years before that which were horrible?

I suspect that you won’t be going anywhere. Particularly now that they have a pretty good team IMO.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sad...

It’ll be pretty sad if we come out of this FA period with Gomes, Foye and Brian Cook as our only acquisitions. I felt that Olshey’s draft was solid and I liked the VDN hire, but so far this is not the work of team that will have any kind of a chance. I too really view this as a watershed moment for the team. The cap space was there to make an impact. I never thought we’d get anyone huge but I thought Neil was sharp enough to maybe cut a deal with a team in the luxury tax and absorb that salary. We’re not done yet but its getting down to the wire. With $10mil left we better bring in a guy that can give us some production or we’re gonna be right back in the lottery.

"I want someone who will, you know, let me put it in or who [will] suck on it." – Donald Sterling

by Dow Jones on Jul 12, 2010 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree but

We’re likely right back in the lottery regardless.

Given this posting, were you expecting that Josh Childress would make this team a playoff team? Doubtful.

There were two guys on the free agent market that would make this team a playoff team; one we recruited for a third of the time everyone else recruited, and the other we apparently just ignored.

Nobody else out there is likely good enough to make this team a playoff team. The Clips right now have some nice talent, but it’s really young talent. That usually guarantees inconsistent play. And in the west, that’s not likely good enough to make the playoffs.

by madglove on Jul 12, 2010 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Having said that, I agree that not getting a quality FA

or making a lopsided trade for talent this summer would be a huge disappointment.

by madglove on Jul 12, 2010 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

…were you expecting that Josh Childress would make this team a playoff team? Doubtful.

I agree, probably not. We’d have a better chance with Josh, but we’re still very young.

I think a better question is, Had we signed Childress now, would our core then be set up to go far, given a few years time? -I don’t know what the answer is. It’s possible that the FO still sees us missing some key pieces, and so they don’t want to commit now to a merely talented role player.

What’s frustrating is that I can’t tell if the Clips are trying to be savvy or just trying to make a profit. But for the moment let’s assume the best of them: Assuming we’re out to win a long-term race, is it best to shift right away into a higher gear, or should we merely rev the engines and wait for a more optimal moment to move on the field?

"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT

by SilverClip on Jul 12, 2010 7:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Great points

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 7:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

You are still in your 20s, right?

So you’ve been a fan of this team for over two thirds of your life and this is it?

Wow.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Late 20s yea

Actually its easier to quit on a team than ever. Before it was hard to watch anything besides the Clippers and Lakers. One can follow any team now.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Jul 12, 2010 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Whoa

That’s a little crazy.

You can def follow any team, but are you just going to pick some team to “love” and tell yourself that you’re in love with that team now?

I’ll be interested to see what you decide to do. I understand the sentiment though. I honestly don’t blame anyone for dropping the Clips. It’s irrational to support this team.

by madglove on Jul 12, 2010 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Jesus.

And you called me a downer.

I've got nothing.

by bc56274 on Jul 12, 2010 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't get it either

Perhaps he has been overvalued as a starter due to his lack of consistent shooting range. He’s basically an SG/SF tweener.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 12:44 PM PDT reply actions  

Well there ya go

Olshey doesn’t want any SG/SF tweeners, he only wants SF/PF tweeners.

I like that word.

by Erik O on Jul 12, 2010 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

"lack of consistent shooting range"

You are working overtime to justify it Jax.

I’m sure even Olshey is surprised to already have an apologist.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Jul 12, 2010 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Why, you and John R were working overtime for MDSr for seven years

And apparently still are.

JK. Don’t drag me down

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

I feel like this validates what many have said countless times before.

PPG trumps all in the League and intangibles are largely ignored.

Teams want intangibles from the $1-3 mil guys…not the $5+ mil guys. Does it make sense? Not really. But I’m guessing the teams are thinking that a guy who can score at $5 mil looks like a steal whereas the intangibles guy scoring 8-12 ppg looks like a bad signing.

Keep in mind that many GMs/Presidents have to answer to their owners. And it’s VERY possible that owners, like the majority of fans, are most impressed by PPG.

by madglove on Jul 12, 2010 12:47 PM PDT reply actions  

PPG

Everything else is tiebreakers.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 12, 2010 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Still?

Doesn’t explain Wes Matthews of course. But in the end I draw the same conclusion. A few teams (Houston, Portland) see the big picture. Everyone else is stuck in pre-Oakland A’s MLB, looking for home run hitters, ignoring pitch count. So Portland paid Matthews already… no one left to bid up Jchill. Maybe.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Jul 12, 2010 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Post Oakland A’s MLB put more of a focus on home run hitters. Pre Oakland A’s viewed a single and a homerun the same. Post view a homerun as 4 times more valuable.

by Michael White on Jul 12, 2010 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

Is it only 4x?

Intuition feels like it would be more. The baseball numbers are crazy.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 12, 2010 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Actually, since that point the conventional wisdow is it’s actually a lot less. I think 2.5 times is more correct.

Steve’s point was correct. The best thing a baseball hitter can do is go to the plate and leave it without an out being recorded. So any outcome is valuable from walk to homerun. The basic logic is that baseball is an untimed sport and the game ends with outs accrued. So every out gets you closer to losing. That’s why the new models pretty much argue that bunting is incredibly stupid as is trading outs for runs (sac flys.)

by Michael White on Jul 12, 2010 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

I know about the outs thing

But singles end up as double plays. Anyway, just a curiosity for me.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 12, 2010 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

I was hesitant to make a baseball reference...

since I’m ignorant. The point is, baseball is light years ahead in understanding what actually matters, in getting past prior misconceptions. Of course, as you well know, it’s easier to quantify in baseball, where almost everything boils down to truly individual stuff – a pitcher versus a hitter. No help defenders, no assists, no double teams to face.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Jul 12, 2010 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think it also depends on the makeup of the team

Teams need three consistent scorers to win, the old saying goes. Players like J Chill are important ingredients, but the team cannot win without the three consistent scorers. Most teams start all three but a few (Spurs for example) only start two of them.

We are (the conventional wisdom goes) looking for a starting SF. I guess the FO has to decide whether they can afford to have the starting SF not be a player who can stretch the defense given the two bigs that we have. Presumably our three consistent scorers are going to be BG, EJ and BD. Kaman will get his. In that scenario, what kind of player should be the 5th starter? If JChill can shoot at around 36% at high volume I don’t see why he couldn’t be that guy. However, I don’t know the answer to that question.

Do we still want him coming off the bench? What would that do to Aminu’s development? Seems to me based on his college stats that he’s similar to J Chill (but obviously much younger).

Anyway, food for thought I suppose.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

"Teams need three consistent scorers"

I think you pulled that right out of your butt.

The 2008 Celtics, the 2001 Lakers and the Spurs are the only teams I can think of that had three consistent scorers, and that’s only because of the lack of 30ppg scorers.

I think you are just trying to justify why Olshey passed on Childress. And it all goes back to your disdain for Dunleavy, which I’ve always said bordered on irrational.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Jul 12, 2010 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nice post mikey

First, you’re better than that. I expect you to be at least. That’s the conventional wisdom as I understand it. I don’t think I typically engage in flame wars with you, but if that’s what you want . . .

Second, I’m not defending anyone. Just trying to figure out what the rationale might be, mikey.

Third, I think supporting a sub .400 coach / GM for seven years is irrational (not just bordering on irrational). But that has nothing to do with this.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

I did not support a sub .400 coach

Also, I hardly flamed you. But off the top of my head, I could only think of a few champions that had three major scorers. It’s not a key to winning.

Champs typically have hustle guys and rebounders surrounding one or two big time scorers.

Anyhow, I think the Clippers GM is having a tough week. Foye and Gomes were passable. VDN was a marginal, uninspiring hire. Those are the positives.

Signing Brian Cook was a huge bummer. Watching other good players, including JChill get gobbled up was disappointing.

My fear was that keeping Olshey as GM was Sterling’s way of not hiring a real GM and instead having a puppet to keep costs down. Hope I’m wrong, but I need a little convincing now.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Jul 12, 2010 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

I didn't say major, I said consistent

Three guys who could be counted on to score consistently. Night in and night out.

I think we need to see how this plays out before ripping the guy. At least one game. After all, MDSr had seven years.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

MDSR didn't get 7 years

the honeymoon ended after 4 years. It dragged on because of the FO unwillingness to eat his contract.

So let’s recap the last 6 months. Trade Camby for no future considerations (but some cash for the Clippers). Trade Thornton and Telfair for cap space. Fire Dunleavy, promote Kim Hughes. Stop paying Dunleavy and some staff. Fire Hughes. Rehire Hughes since heck he’s already getting paid. Trade future pick for Bledsoe (when picks were reportedly available for cash). Very uninspiring presentation for LBJ, with equally embarrassing press releases. Pick Del Negro with reports DTS picked him despite Casey being the basketball minds preferred pick and rumors that Del Negro would cost less. Sign 2 average free agents and a minimum contract of a player with no other suitors. And to top if off word is the Clippers are now done.

Yea, so far so good.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Jul 12, 2010 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's certainly one way to view what's occurred

There are others. Yours is a pretty negative view of the current FO. I’m choosing to wait and see.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

Negative view?

those were statements of facts. Except for the Lebron thing (which is a matter of opinion) everything else is a factual statement.

Camby trade? Fact
Thornton and Telfair trade? Fact
Fire Dunleavy as coach? Fact
Stop paying Dunleavy and staff? Fact
Fire Hughes? Fact
Rehire Hughes? Fact
Hire Del Negro? Fact
Report DTS overrode basketball minds in FO? Fact
Del Negro contract covered partially by Bulls? Fact
Pincus says Clippers are done making moves? Fact

Like I said, if this is all they do this summer I’m cancelling my season tickets. I’ll advise my friends and fellow STH to do the same. There better be a trade brewing, not going to bother with another likely 50 loss season.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Jul 12, 2010 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

The report is a fact, which is to say it is a fact that a report surfaced. But it is not a fact that the front office overrode basketball minds. That’s speculation. Ditto for what Pincus said.

And I didn’t view rehiring Hughes as a bad thing. I give him a lot of credit for helping our big men develop jump shots.

by Michael White on Jul 12, 2010 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Exactly

Alot of what you’re saying is based on pure conjecture.

Some of which is inaccurate. See SP for the explanation on the VDN contract. VDN is costing us more than Casey.

Camby trade – why is that such a problem for you? That’s a very expensive player to have.

Thornton sucks. Do you really want him here?

Fire MDSr. Long overdue.

Stop paying MDSr – that’s a legal issue that you know nothing about other than what’s been reported. The matter is in arbitration (you might not know that). Either way, so what.

Fire Hughes and rehire Hughes – is this really something that is the source of your consternation? Somehow, I doubt it.

Hire VDN? You’re going to walk over that? Seriously? Many people believe he’s better than Casey. Yet you’re not even sticking around to see how it plays out. Um, ok.

DTS overriding basketball minds? Pure conjecture.

Pincus said Clips are done? Oh boy, it’s all over now. You should cancel your season tickets.

Reality – the Clippers have a good team and a new coach and FO. Things are looking up for the first time in years. You’re bitching because they didn’t make some sort of splash free agent signing. Like JChill. As if he’d be a splash.

IMO you’re not the brightest bulb on the bush if you walk out on the team now before they even play one game with the new players. Particularly since you’ve been with the team through the dark days that the current situation hardly comjpares to.

I think you are smart, however. You’ve just been taken in by some on the site who are very negative because they are tied to the security of the old regime.

In any event, do what you must. I for one am going to see how it plays out. Not for seven years though. ;-)

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

What happened to Jax, and who is this imposter?

The Jax I remember demanded a competent front office that made decisions to improve the team. This guy is just making excuses for the FO. Would any of us have said in June that signing Foye, Gomes and Cook would constitute an acceptable off-season?

Either Olshey hasn’t been effective at signing top talent, or he’s being handicapped by an owner who isn’t willing to pay for top talent. Neither explanation should be acceptable.

by ClipCat on Jul 12, 2010 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Exactly, Cat

Which is why I believe that, for Jax, this is about Dunleavy, who, don’t get me wrong, needed to be fired as coach.

And while I’m not a huge Dunleavy admirer, I recognized that he was the first person who successfully got DTS to open the wallet. That was his value. For the first time the Clippers were making basketball decisions. My fear was that Dunleavy’s dismissal would be a return to the old guard, rather than a step forward. It seems that may be the case.

I really hoped that the Clippers were going to hire known GM that would at least continue what Dunleavy started – getting DTS to spend $$ on players.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Jul 12, 2010 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

And here come the MDSr security blanket folks

As I’ve said ad nauseum (let’s review):

They got rid of the bad GM – check

They got rid of the bad coach – check

They hired a new coach – jury still out on if competent

They hired a new GM – jury still out

They have a good team in place that with the right management and coaching can do well. That’s what the naysayers just don’t get.

No. 1 pick huge impact player – check

Competent top 10 pg – check

improving SG – check

Capable center – check

Potential impact player finally arrives – SOFO – check

Two capable free agent signings so far at good prices – check.

I think they should spend the rest of their cash. However, you bet your asses I’m going to let this play out.

It couldn’t get any worse than it’s been.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

"good team in place "

When did this all of a sudden become a good team?

How is Olshey’s core roster different from Dunleavy’s (aside from draft picks and marginal FAs)?

It’s basically the same, sans Camby and Thornton, and you were very critcal of their being traded when you thought Dunleavy had done it.

Otherwise, they’ve swapped Telfair, then Blake for Foye, Butler and Outlaw for Gomes, and Novak for B.Cook.

Which of those moves suddenly made the Clippers a “good team”?

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Jul 12, 2010 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

I find it interesting

that you would overstate my position

I have always thought the team was pretty good as is. Let me repeat – more than anything else, the team needed (1) a competent coach; and (2) a comptetent FO.

Even MDSr got them to almost .500 last year without BG.

I personally think that they are potentially a good team. In the right system, with a good coach and FO behind them, they could be good.

The point is that they didn’t need a tremendous amount of new players. What they needed most of all was to revamp management. Which, mikey, is what I’ve been saying all along.

Many around here however, think that they have to go out and sign critical free agents to make them a good team when in reality, I think they need to see how the players they have play under a real coach with a real system before spending millions more in long term commitments.

I was not critical of the Thornton move. I wondered whether it was worth it to move Thornton given his low cost. That falls hand in hand with my belief that the main problem with this team isn’t really the players.

Camby – that’s another issue altogether. I think in hindsight it was best for all concerned.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Circles

Had the previous GM been as lousy as you claim one would think a roster overhaul would be needed.

Anyway, didn’t like Sr. as a coach, thought he was a decent GM, and didn’t think a return to Sterling’s old ways was worth it.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Jul 12, 2010 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Among other things

his problem was that he signed some players (BD) who didn’t mesh with the coach.

But the main problem with him IMO was that he wasn’t respected as a GM around the league and players didn’t like him.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hmm

Where did you get that he wasn’t respect as a GM around the league? That is more conjecture than anything.

I think some players liked him but he was losing some of the team. Really he had to go because no franchise should tolerate 3 consecutive 50 loss seasons in a row.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Jul 12, 2010 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

A couple of reasons

First, he wasn’t the actual GM. Elgin was. So the entire thing was a charade as exposed by Falk in the Elton Brand fiasco.

Second, players didn’t like him. I’m not going to go into more detail but several have told me personally. It’s obvious.

Third, the Clipper FO thought he was an arrogant prick. Which he was. Just ask him.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 5:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

These points fail to address his question

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 12, 2010 5:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Am I now being tag-teamed?

Don’t you have anything better to do?

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

I was interested in your "insider" answer

But you didn’t address his question.

I am not surprised.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 12, 2010 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

By "insider"

you mean that you don’t believe that a relatively high level FO employee for years told me that they all hated MDSr because he was such an arrogant prick?

I could care less if you believe me.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

If so

why wait so long to fire him? Because Sterling is a cheap bastard who refuses to eat any contracts. Then he stops paying him… which apparently no one but Jax can understand even though its an absolute rarity for this to happen… to a team besides the Clippers that is.

And Elgin has been out for over a year and a half. MDSr made the ZBo trade, the Camby trade, the Craig Smith, Telfair, Thornton trades. He’s actually respected by the rest of the coaching community. I would think he has more respect than Olshey the former aspiring actor.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Jul 12, 2010 5:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ok

I didn’t say he shouldn’t eat the contract. The legal issues as I understand them have to do with how to handle the payments over time and what MDSr is supposed to do in the interim. He’s not entitled to a lump sum under the contract as I understand it.

Sorry, MDSr is not respected by the coaching community. And you’d be wrong about who’s respected more between Olshey and MDSr. You can try to impugn Olshey by referencing acting but you don’t know him or really much about him so what’s the point?

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Right

and again what proof do you offer that MDsr is not respected by other coaches. I don’t recall Phil Jackson ever having disparaging remarks about him. Dunleavy won coach of the year before. He was a rising star when he coached the Lakers in the early 90s.

And again, what proof do you have that Olshey is a respected GM? He hasn’t signed a coveted free agent yet. So far his only trade was a future pick for Eric Bledsoe. DSr entire career vs Olshey’s 5 months as acting GM. Hmmmmmmmm….

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Jul 12, 2010 6:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Proof?

George Karl for just one example.

If you don’t know MDSr’s a bad coach I don’t know what to say. Bad coaches typically are not respected. If you want me to walk you through his sub .400 record, his horrible game day coaching, etc., let me know.

The NBA typically doesn’t respect losers.

I’m expensive, but worth it.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 6:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Never heard Karl say anything

and apparently one coach represents the other 28 coaches.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Jul 12, 2010 7:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

So you want sworn statements?

Egads, man, the guy is a bad coach.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 7:16 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

LOL

you are the one always accusing others of making things up (very amusing by the way)… I also think MDSr had to go but I’m not making up things about other coaches not respecting him or whatever other crap you made up.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Jul 12, 2010 7:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

That Jax never really existed

Its always been about Dunleavy as a person.

Still is.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 12, 2010 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh, ok

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Its increasingly not just me

One might look inside ones self.

Might.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 12, 2010 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

If I were you I'd quit

while you’re only so far behind

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hmm

Maybe its just been about me all along.

Either is plausible.

Based on this thread it seems you see everything through at least one of us.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 12, 2010 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Let me know when

you want to actually engage in a real discussion. Until then please stop wasting my time.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I'll still follow the Clips

my days of spending actual money to support this team are likely through however. Well at least until Sterling croaks. As they say, there is no reason to throw good money after bad.

But the team has made it clear once again they are fine selling a inferior product. I’ve outgrown the Scion line of cars, its time to upgrade to a sexy european luxury car.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Jul 12, 2010 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

That seems reasonable

Wait on season tix until they put a winning product on the floor.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm open

I had much higher hopes for Summer 2010, excluding LeBron, whom I knew wasn’t coming here anyway.

Other than a fine draft, I see little progress.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Jul 12, 2010 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Do we think he passed?

I don’t know that he passed. We can guess that they didn’t offer him 5/40 8 mil or 3/25, or something that would have gotten his attention. And we can guess that he didn’t offer him the Trout money, 5/35.

I’m going with the Lon Babby conspiracy theory. Maybe a little Steve Nash/Grant Hill thrown in.

It’s hard to say that the Clippers didn’t want him, but there’s nothing to suggest that they talked to him either.

by citizen zhiv on Jul 12, 2010 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

He either passed

never bothered in the first place. Both not good.

The Babby theory is legit, though.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Jul 12, 2010 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

My problem with the Babby theory

Is Occam’s Razor seems to cut entirely the other way.

Second problem: if that’s how it is, the NBA is in a terrible place.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 12, 2010 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

The NBA is without a doubt in a terrible place

Sham after sham after sham.

This one would rank low on the consquence scale if it does turn out to be another backroom deal, but it’s par for today’s course, IMO.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Jul 12, 2010 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Isn't it more than that?

The GM of Toronto, from the Suns, is involved in the sign and trade?

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

The sign and trade is a seperate transaction

The Childress part is Childress for a draft pick.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 12, 2010 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

The Colangelo thing...

Yes he’s from the Suns, but he comes out of the Hedo deal with a much better deal than anyone in the NBA ever thought he’d get. Why would contending former team help bottom dwelling new team? It’s not West and Grizz helping the Lakers… it’s Sarver helping the former owner’s Sun in Toronto… that’s a stretch. But it’s an interesting thought… I am definitely confused.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Jul 12, 2010 4:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah - I don't know

I was just commenting on the connection.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Former owner's son

Not former owners’ Sun….

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Jul 12, 2010 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

I thought that was on purpose ;-)

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Me too

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Jul 12, 2010 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

This signing makes no sense for a number of reasons

1) It’s a sign and trade. Childress could have gotten 6 years yet he took only 5 years.

2) He’s getting less money than Wesley Matthews and Travis Outlaw.

3) He might not even be a starter on the Suns.

4) His points per 36 minutes is higher than Matthews.

5) I’m assuming the Hawks wanted to trade him out of the conference, so the Clippers should have been a ideal destination.

KAAHHHHHHHHNNNNNNNNNNNNN!

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Jul 12, 2010 12:50 PM PDT reply actions  

Ick

Just realized we are paying Ryan Gomes and Brian Cook what the Suns are paying for J Chill. It’s cool to drink at 1pm on a Monday right?

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Jul 12, 2010 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

ICKKK!

I threw up in my mouth.

by Newton Pham on Jul 12, 2010 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Don't worry

Haven’t you heard, Olshey knows what he’s doing.

It’s a new day in Clipper-dom, don’t ya know?

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Jul 12, 2010 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

More of the same to me

Phil Jackson alone makes more in one year than the entire coaching staff and basketball operations make in 3 years.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Jul 12, 2010 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

No I caught it

was just adding to the misery. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if Olshey and Roeser flew coach to Cleveland.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Jul 12, 2010 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

And I have some real property

in FLA to sell to those rose colored glasses wearers.

by daclipjoint on Jul 12, 2010 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm gonna assume the Clippers already had another plan

And that’s why they didn’t persue JChill.

by MannyA on Jul 12, 2010 1:05 PM PDT via mobile reply actions  

glass half full

but even an optimist like myself isn’t sure. My best guess is they didn’t want to sign anyone not named Lebron to a contract that long.

by chrisd on Jul 12, 2010 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Carmelo is the only possible big chip

But yeah, I’ve been saying all along that the Nuggets are going to implode this year or next…Clips could be positioned to help them out…

by banandy on Jul 12, 2010 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’m really hoping the FO knows better than we do. I assume they had to have some decent scouting checking out Sofo, so hopefully they’ve seen a lot more of jchill than i’ve seen in the past few years. It’s hard to see him not being worth MLE money though… Maybe they think the fro doesn’t make him ‘play the right way’

by osamu on Jul 12, 2010 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

that's a good point...scouting Sofo would definitely have allowed FO to know as much as they need to know about JChill

I’m guessing it was either a) FO didn’t think he was a good fit or, b) his agent told FO that he isn’t interested

by banandy on Jul 12, 2010 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Per Eric Pincus.

Barnes rejects ORL’s offer of 2.6 mil per, looking for lucrative contract. I think dude is definitely worth Wes Matthews money, young enough to stay with core for next 3-4 years.

"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's doing down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.

by Gordon for President on Jul 12, 2010 1:14 PM PDT reply actions  

Childress reversal.....but Melo?!

I admit, I was not on Clipperchuck’s bandwagon when signing J-Chill was being discussed for around 10 mil a year. In fact……I was depressed we’d consider that! But he signed for just under HALF that?! Man……I just climbed aboard the bandwagon too late!

I thank Banandy for taking my sullen psyche up a notch for throwing what is likely a far fetched idea out I can ruminate on in fantasy land……Melo on the Clips?! I’d take that?!

(Don’t ruin it by saying what we have to give up for that. I’ll have to join Chuck in getting juiced on an early Monday afternoon. Just let a long suffering Clipper fan dream awhile, ok?)

;o)

by Clipper Doggy on Jul 12, 2010 1:18 PM PDT reply actions  

Other than Griffin is there anything you wouldn’t give up for Melo?

by Michael White on Jul 12, 2010 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Um........

Good point. No.

(I was worried the answer to “what would we have to give up?” would be “the entire starting lineup plus the Clipper Spirit” – but I guess maybe that was me being a tad bit overly worried, huh?)

Still……is there really anything to this possibility? (Wait – don’t tell me. I’ll go back to dreaming ignorantly with a smile on my face.)

by Clipper Doggy on Jul 12, 2010 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Next big 3

Amare, Melo and Chris Paul to NYK. This is what the people say.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 12, 2010 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Attrition for the win?

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 12, 2010 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's all we have John...it's all we have.

We certainly don’t have free agent signings to look forward to. All my favorite SFs are gone.

by Newton Pham on Jul 12, 2010 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

He is expiring

There is always next year.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 12, 2010 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

You mean, this isn’t the only summer free agents will be available?

by Michael White on Jul 12, 2010 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nope

That includes the Clippers too of course.

Griffin himself becomes a free agent one day. It would be a shame to spend his time with us waiting for that perfect moment.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 12, 2010 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

+1

Need to be a winning team before BG hits FA or else HE IS GONE!

by Newton Pham on Jul 12, 2010 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

And we have already lost one year of it

without him playing a minute.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Jul 12, 2010 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ya, that was a bummer.

by Michael White on Jul 12, 2010 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’m fine giving him his raise for year 2 in the league (easy for me to say since it’s not my money) but I wish LAC got a redshirt year out of it and he had one more year of club control.

by Michael White on Jul 12, 2010 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

We'll know how Blake feels about the Clippers

sooner rather than later, when he is up for an extension.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Jul 12, 2010 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

He’s not enough of a star to only take a 3 year extension I would think. So he’ll sign a 5 year deal assuming he’s worth it.

by Michael White on Jul 12, 2010 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's the good news

He might be that starry in fact, but being a PF he might not have the PPG number to justify it.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 12, 2010 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’m actually tripping over myself on the logic here, so help me out. But Durant is definitely a star, but he took the sure thing payday in the 5 year extension from OKC. I would think Griffin would do the same.

The guys who didn’t, were Bosh, Wade and James so that they could become a UFA quicker.

by Michael White on Jul 12, 2010 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well Im just saying

Maybe Griffin goes 17/17 on 58% shooting. That’s huge huge value, but well below stardom in the PPG market.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 12, 2010 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

BG would be smart to sign a 3 year deal

really he needs to keep the pressure on the FO to spend on his supporting cast. If he signs a long term deal the Clippers will continue to be cheap (well they probably will be cheap but hopefully less cheap)

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Jul 12, 2010 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don’t know. For a guy who already had one major knee injury, I gotta think he takes the guaranteed money as soon as he can.

by Michael White on Jul 12, 2010 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Was it really major?

It isn’t a blown ACL, MCL or any other alphabet tear. Nor was it a microfracture. It was supposedly just a small fracture in a awkward place that didn’t heal on its own.

Anyways for our sake, we really want him to sign shorter deals so it pressures the front office to make some moves.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Jul 12, 2010 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

He missed an entire season

So I think it’s fair to call it “major.”

I mean, it’s taken almost as long as an ACL injury would have.

Let’s hope he comes back fully healthy faster than someone would from an ACL though.

by madglove on Jul 12, 2010 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

He did miss the entire year

but everything I’ve read said it wasn’t a serious injury (hence the original 6 week projection). I’m more optimistic about his knees than if he blew one out like Amare. I’m knocking on wood as I type this.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Jul 12, 2010 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wait a minute

I thought you’re out of here ;-)

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Obviously I hope you're right

but as we discussed here before (and which Steve posted about), the 6 week projection seemed more like poor PR than anything else. Overpromise, underdeliver.

In the end, he missed the entire season, and I don’t think anyone can call that anything other than major.

by madglove on Jul 12, 2010 4:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Bron/Wade/Bosh

There was an extra factor of the CBA… they knew when signing contracts in 2007 that CBA expired in 2010, and knew the next one would be less player-friendly. Most (almost all) players take the guaranteed years. Too many things can go wrong… injuries being primary. If you’re LeBron James, maybe it’s a safe-ish bet. Anyone else, it’s dicey…. I though Bosh was taking a big risk at the time, but obviously it paid off.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Jul 12, 2010 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

I just can't see Melo turning down the extension

That kind of money won’t be there next year.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Jul 12, 2010 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oops!

I said “just under half that”?! What the…..?! lol OK, make that “just over”.

Oh who quabbles over a few million here and there anyway? lol

-Badwit Mathman

by Clipper Doggy on Jul 12, 2010 1:20 PM PDT reply actions  

Dude with the 'tude

I think he hates our team colors: red, white, and blue.

by Erik O on Jul 12, 2010 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

You got that right

Poor Josh was forced to live in rotten old America and have to scrape his way by playing basketball for millions.

Such misfortune. But at least he got to smoke some good stuff.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Jul 12, 2010 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

I've been talking about taking Howard on for a while now.

One year deal? Suppose not if BOS and CHI are interested, but if they are we should be too. 3 year deal?

Getting a nagging feeling Gomes is the starter, and we’re going to sit on the cap space. It makes no sense to have Gomes and Aminu competing for backup minutes that should all go to Aminu.

But we’er a solid SF away from being a legit playoff threat. Fuck. So close to rising and it seems we’re gonna stand pat. Typical.

"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's doing down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.

by Gordon for President on Jul 12, 2010 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Just like when we passed on trading Livy for A.I.

"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's doing down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.

by Gordon for President on Jul 12, 2010 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Didn't Howard tear something in his knee

at the end of the year? I would think he’s out until the all-star break. Judging by the Clippers last few years, the Clipper season might be over before he returns.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Jul 12, 2010 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wow

This is a bit hard to accept, and everything up above makes sense. It’s just odd. The Clippers seem to be caught exactly between the guys who seem to be overpaid and the guys who sign for less. Having Miller and Chill go below apparent market value is just a drag. With Miller, it’s kicking a little Miami sand in the face, after they put together the 3 Amigos, that they then start to get the Elite Team Discount, and pick up more guys.

The Chill situation is just bizarre, and it only makes sense according to the Lon Babby conspiracy theories. Not sure how this is the best case scenario for Childress, aside from getting to play with Nash and a great offensive system, where he can thrive. But why should some one take a Phoenix discount, especially after Amare is gone? I don’t get it.

Not sure that I blame the Clippers, hard to tell what they could have done. But we don’t know what they’ve been doing.

The other piece to the equation is the “play the young guys” approach. We might know a little bit more after we get a look at AFA in summer league. Gordon was young but he was a starter, Griffin would have been a starter and is going to be, and even Thornton could have been a respectable starter as a rookie. The bigger guy, the bigger/longer contract, less time for AFA. But he’s 19 and obviously it wouldn’t be bad for the Clips to have a good player/good fit plugged into the starting lineup.

Frustrating.

by citizen zhiv on Jul 12, 2010 2:21 PM PDT reply actions  

The Miller deal makes sense

He’ll save on the taxes (damn you Sacramento!) and get to join the best trio around. Win-win.

JChill, on the other hand, is just a bummer. PHX is getting a solid player for a bargain. One would think LAC may have had a good shot had they made a serious offer.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Jul 12, 2010 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Isn´t Jefferson available

War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.-1984 George Orwell.

by tomkanti on Jul 12, 2010 2:59 PM PDT reply actions  

sadly, I’m getting more hopefully they’ll take a shot at RJ. I never really liked him, but I think it’s mostly cause of his tattoo.

But I do think most of his troubles in SA stemmed from joining an already established team, and was trying to fit in too much. I don’t think he’d have the problem here, and has always seemed like a pretty classy guy (other than that wedding fiasco?) that would ‘play the right way’. I’m curious what kind of money he’s worth though. He left 15 mil on the table, so I’m guessing it’s take a least a 30 mil contract to sign him. Maybe he’d be worth like 7-8mil per for 3 or 4 years? I have no clue what his market value is now, but I’m guessing he thinks it’s still pretty high.

by osamu on Jul 12, 2010 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Haha

What’s his tattoo?

by Erik O on Jul 12, 2010 11:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

So where do we go from here?

Looks like another 30 win season, you know, if some breaks go our way.

I've got nothing.

by bc56274 on Jul 12, 2010 3:55 PM PDT reply actions  

unfortunately

breaks never go the Clippers way

by bacek on Jul 12, 2010 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

wait...

agreeing? disagreeing?

Don’t know if you are in club optimism or club “it’s the Clippers”

by bacek on Jul 12, 2010 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

"It's the Clippers".

Always hoping for the best, but expecting the worst.

I've got nothing.

by bc56274 on Jul 12, 2010 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

It certainly is for me.

It would be nice to think we could be relevant someday, but I’m just not sure that will ever happen as long as Sterling is the owner.

I've got nothing.

by bc56274 on Jul 12, 2010 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

As currently constructed anywhere from 30-45 wins is possible

So many big bets on so many rookies.

The thing to know is, with a proper free agency period, it could have easily been 10-15 more.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 12, 2010 5:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think its possible of course

If there are significant injuries, even worse is possible. The team is razor thin as constructed.

I was reflecting on the gathered talent and if the season proceeds as normal. With some much riding on rookies, especially the upside of Griffin, its really hard to say.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 12, 2010 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

What do you mean by "a proper free agency period" and how would that

“easily” translate into “10-15 more” wins?

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 5:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Clearly you believe the Clippers got the 3 best free agents available

Otherwise your questions are absurd.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 12, 2010 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Exactly - you are just blowing smoke as usual

Why wasn’t MDSr ever able to have a “proper free agency” period in the six years he ran the team?

Just curious.

They really should just hire you since you’re the best.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 5:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

"Otherwise your questions are absurd."

“Exactly”

Argue what you believe, don’t wait for me. Your question indicates you don’t think the Clippers could have done any better.

We get that. Its absurd.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 12, 2010 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Once again, why would they win 10-15 more games with a "proper free agency period"

You said it. You should explain it.

If you don’t we will assume you can’t.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 5:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

LOL

Who is this we?

Who do you imagine is with you today?

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 12, 2010 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

All you do is dodge

Discussion is pointless. I feel sorry for anyone who gets caught up in your nonsense.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 5:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Correct me if I'm wrong...

I think John is saying, if we signed more talented free agents, we’d be much more likely to get 10-15 more wins. We’d probably have to spend more of our cap if we signed better free agents.

I think we can all agree there’s no guarantee this would have been the best choice. Maybe AFA turns into an All-Star later, and we’re all thankful we paid for a SF that AFA could eventually replace, and we didn’t spend $30M for 3 years to lock up Mike Miller. Maybe AFA turns into a complete bust and we’re pissed we didn’t lock up a talented SF when we had the chance to win 10-15 more games.

It could really go either way, so what’s the point in arguing?

by Erik O on Jul 12, 2010 11:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

John R and Jax...

I can’t tell if you guys seriously hate each other, or secretly want to rip each other’s clothing off and have hot mansex.

Whatever the case, I find the banter pretty funny. Carry on.

I've got nothing.

by bc56274 on Jul 12, 2010 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Did he run the team for 6 years?

Or was Elgin really the GM?

You can’t even keep your story straight anymore.

Say what you believe. It might reduce the impression you are incredibly dishonest. Might.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 12, 2010 5:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

We did

we had Brand who reneged on us and Baron Davis who signed with us. That’s actually huge. Even though those signings ultimately wouldn’t have paid off they would have been big moves at the time. Instead the team just picks through the scraps like hyenas after the lions have eaten their fill.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Jul 12, 2010 6:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

You two are basically a tag team now

CC – don’t you have some small companies to advise? We know John R has nothing. I’ve got to get back to work.

Apparently you want some hot mansex with John R. Please, no photos.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 6:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

I got plenty of things to do

but arguing with you is so much more enjoyable. I promise you I make much more than you did when you were my age. Possibly more than you make even now.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Jul 12, 2010 6:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

You have no idea how old I am or how much money I make

Having said that, your focus on money does make you seem a bit superficial.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 6:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

I would surmise you are in your late 30s to mid 40s

since you’ve mentioned you have kids.

Actually you’re the one bringing our personal lives into the equation since you bring up my work first.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Jul 12, 2010 7:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

I mentioned work, you mentioned money

And then in your bravado you took it a step further and started telling me your schlong is longer

Again you know nothing about me

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 12, 2010 7:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Cool

let’s keep it that way.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Jul 12, 2010 7:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Smartest/Dumbest Fans in the NBA

As someone who has been a Clipper fan since 1980 here in San Diego I can honestly say that we are both the smartest fans (high basketball IQ) and also the dumbest fans in sports. It is insane to think that someone like Donald Sterling will all of a sudden change who he is, but most of us keep thinking for some reason that he will. And even if we don’t think that he will change, we assume that someone who has no credible experience like Neil Olshey will succeed despite the Donald. Sadly like Raider fan we have two options:1) Hope that high life expectancy and longevity does not run in the Sterling family or 2)boycott the team in every way, hoping that you can hurt him in the only way he feels pain which is in his pocketbook. I don’t feel right about wishing death on anybody when its about sports so I am going with option #2 and I suggest everybody else does too. We can get rid of him real quick if for the 41 home games next year no one shows up, or watches on TV or buys the merchandise. I am going to do that for the first time in 31 seasons this year and I hope the rest of you do the smart thing and do the same.

by sdclipp on Jul 12, 2010 10:41 PM PDT reply actions  

The name of the team is Olympiacos, not Olympiakos. Why can no one in the United States spell it right?

by Ming on Jul 13, 2010 5:14 PM PDT reply actions  

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