Is the Clippers' Roster Set?
by Steve Perrin on Jul 20, 2010 2:06 PM PDT
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PrintSummer League is over, most of the free agents are signed, and now we have to settle in for the long, long off-season. Sure, the off-season (for the Clippers at least) has already been going on for three months. But in those three months, we've had the NBA playoffs, the draft lottery, the draft, free agency, a new coach hiring and summer league. Basically, it's been busier than the regular season. But between now and the beginning of training camp in October, we could be in for a ten week dry spell.
It's entirely possible that there won't be any signings of note during this time. With the re-signing of Craig Smith yesterday (which also signals the likely end of the MBFGC experiment), the Clippers now have twelve players under contract (though not all of them are guaranteed ). I keep hearing that the team plans to carry thirteen contracts (more on that later), and the play of Marqus Blakely in Las Vegas should earn him a camp invite and serious consideration for the regular season roster. There's certainly room for at least one more external signing (and of course the team has a well-publicized meeting with Tracy McGrady this week) and truth be told, I do expect at least one more name to be added. But there's a chance that what you see is what you get.
Here's what you see currently:
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Point Guard |
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Shooting Guard |
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Small Forward |
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Power Forward |
Craig Smith |
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Center |
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* Contract not fully guaranteed
It's a pretty good starting lineup - with a weak link at the small forward. However, it is sorely lacking in depth, unless the teenagers are ready to contribute a lot more quickly than they demonstrated in Las Vegas.
Obviously, they have to add at least one more player. That one could conceivably be Blakely. The simple truth is, during Summer League he looked more ready to contribute now than any of the three drafted rookies. As for Jordan and Warren, it's highly likely that they'll be on the team come November. They've already invested two years in developing Jordan, and his contract is very inexpensive, so it only makes sense to see that investment through. We'll know sooner rather than later on DJ - his contract becomes guaranteed on August 1. Warren's deal is partially guaranteed, so it seems highly likely that they'll at least start the season with him. As of now, they don't appear to need the roster spots. If push comes to shove, they could always waive Warren during the season to make more room.
I keep seeing the Clippers discussed in the mix for the final Western Conference playoff spot, and I honestly don't see why. Comparing this team to last season's team that won 29 games, you have Blake Griffin replacing Marcus Camby and less depth (no Al Thornton). You have to extrapolate Blake Griffin to an All Star level right now to assume that the team is actually better. Don't get me wrong - I think Griffin is in fact a difference maker. But Camby was still very productive last season, so the improvement in the team is limited to the delta above that productivity. Moreover, Blake's entering his rookie season. It may take some time before he's first team All Pro, you know?
Are we expecting signficant improvement from the rest of the lineup? Well, Kaman is coming off an All Star appearance and by far his best scoring season. I'd love to see more of the 07-08 Kaman, with rebounding and blocked shots, especially in Camby's absence. But in general, it's pretty tough to ask for an improvement over a career year. Obviously we'd like to see a better season from Baron Davis, and we can certainly hope for it given that his two seasons in LA have been subpar compared to his career. However, the much more likely scenario is that at the age of 31 his skills have started to decline and will continue to do so. Eric Gordon is still just 21 and should be improving to be sure. Unfortunately, he didn't show nearly the improvement from is rookie season to last year, which makes one less optimistic about a big improvement this year.
I'm not trying to be pessimistic here, just realistic. I think the Clippers are very well positioned for the future, but that future depends on development from AFA and Bledsoe, who do not appear ready to contribute in a meaningfull way as rookies. That leaves the team not significantly better this season than last season.
Having said that, last season's team was playing .500 basketball until they gave up and mailed in the second half. So there should be enough talent to play around .500, and there will hopefully not be any specific reason to give up (like Griffin's injury provided last year). Unfortunately, if anything the playoff picture in the West looks more crowded than ever. Last year the assumption was that Houston was out, while no one had Oklahoma City or Memphis on the radar. Now OKC looks like a lock, Houston hopes to have Yao healthy along with Kevin Martin, Memphis is just as talented as they were and Phoenix and Utah are both trying to hang tough after losing All Star bigs to free agency. It took 50 wins to make the playoffs in the West last season. It'll take something similar this season, it seems to me.
Back to the roster: I haven't hidden my disappointment in the fact that Josh Childress is in Phoenix at what appears to me to be a bargain price. Having said that, it is very easy to make the argument that long term contracts for non-elite talent would have been the worst possible outcome for the Clippers this season. 2010-2011 is the 'show progress and develop the young players' season. Other than DeAndre, there are no significant free agents next summer (and it's open to debate as to whether he is significant). 2011-2012 is the 'moment of truth' season, when this core will need to make the playoffs and show real promise. Eric Gordon will be a restricted free agent in two summers, and Chris Kaman will be unrestricted. That is the time to decide whether the current core will be retained and built around, or whether it's time to start over yet again. Obviously Gordon is more key than Kaman at that point. But the point remains that once LeBron James said "Miami", the upcoming season became a checkpoint on the way to 11-12. Sad, but true.
So drafting 19 year olds and NOT signing five year deals was the exactly correct decision. Foye's deal expires in time to re-sign Gordon. Gomes' three year deal is an expiring contract at that point, almost as valuable. The contract length is what makes the newly minted ClipperWolves good signings. They may or may not be super productive, but with relatively short deals, they were worth the risk.
To remain consistent with that approach, if the Clippers do indeed sign McGrady or some other player this summer, it should be for at most two seasons. If they sign anyone long term, then it will be a real head scratcher.
By my math (and penciling in Craig Smith at his prior $2.3M, which is a total guess at this point, but shouldn't be too far off one way or the other), I have the Clippers with about $9M in cap space still. Now, why would you consider going into the season with $9M and an available roster spot? Of course there's the knee-jerk obvious, Clipper-hatin' (though not necessarily false) answer: to save money. But there are less cynical possibilities as well. The flexibiliy of being below the cap allows teams to add players during the regular season, not just during July. Players on teams that are looking to shed salary, and even the occasional decent free agent (like when Nenad Krstic returned from Europe mid season) may become available at any time, and the Clippers will likely be opportunistic in that regard. Unfortunately, it's not as if the Clippers are the only team entering the season with some flexibility. There were so many teams with space at the beginning of the summer that many of them still have a decent chunk of change. Moreover, many of those trade exceptions that have been flying around the league are still out there, since sign and trades were all the rage this summer.
Will the Clippers sign McGrady? We'll see. It's a decent fit in some ways. TMac wants a chance to prove that he can still play; the Clippers could use some short term help, and have a shortage of playmakers on the wing. He probably wouldn't be a good fit in the starting lineup, but he could absolutely be a featured sixth man for LAC.
Beyond McGrady, there's not much of interest out there at this point. You might as well carry Marqus Blakely as your 13th man (young, athletic, active, high basketball IQ) as the guys who are still available as free agents.
That roster above definitely has some holes. If Kaman or Jordan gets hurt, you're left with Blake Griffin or Brian Cook playing some five. There are enough players that in theory can play multiple spots that you're probably OK depth-wise at the other spots. The real problem is going to be the quality, not the quantity. For instance, if (when) Baron gets hurt, you've got Foye backed up by Bledsoe at the point.
One name to keep an eye on is Jason Kapono. The Clippers could certainly use more shooting, and according to Marc Stein, the Sixers are looking to move Kapono from their crowded wing position. Kapono is in the final year of his contract, and has a very close relationship with Neil Olshey, who coached him at Artesia High. He may want to go to a contender, but if he is interested in being back home in SoCal, the Clippers might be a good fit.
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I sure hope not.
If i was the Gm of the team i would round it out with another clipper fan favorite Rasual
Butler again for a two year contract and I would still see if T-mac would work out and i
still think the clippers need one more big man and Earl Barron would come in for very
cheap since it looks like management is going back to its cheap ways.
Butler was a fan favorite?
He was terrible to start the year and still managed to have a pretty poor year overall.
by Michael White on Jul 20, 2010 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions
He was playing good until we went to
Tank mode with the rest of the team. His game started slow but he did eventually take the
job away with his play over AT.
I think Butler earned respect from the fans
playing i all 82 games and breaking the 3 point FGM franchise record.
But was never really a fan favorite.
All I remember from Butler are a few break away dunks, a lot of threes, and holding the ball at the top of the key until the shot clock goes down.
Would love his return, but its not necessary.
I like it
But there haven’t many rumblings about Rasual other than Miami and other contenders looking to sign him for something around the minimum.
He wasn’t a fan favorite really, though a big chunk of clipper nation appreciated having him on the floor as opposed to Thornton. The coaching staff’s decision to start him over AT and the plus/minus numbers indicate he was more effective as well.
Question is, will Ryan Gomes & Aminu prove to be more effective than Butler/Thornton. There are some encouraging signs that the answer could be yes, but a lot will depend on how quickly Aminu can assimilate.
by ghost_ride on Jul 20, 2010 3:25 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Thank You
Gomes is a good player, definitely better then both AT and Sool
i think we'll get an answer after TMac work outs
Patience is the game. Trying to counter strike the opponents next move. ( But hope its the right waiting game because Clipper Nation been waiting for so long) I hope its not too late before…..check mate!
by LAClippers1983 on Jul 20, 2010 2:38 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
when will kneemac workout with the clippers?
by Chaderack on Jul 20, 2010 6:04 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
According to Lisa Dillman's twitter - Physical today, workout tomorrow.
9:21 LAC - Offensive foul on C. Smith
by LancasterGordon4Eva on Jul 20, 2010 8:17 PM PDT up reply actions
funny
how every player is close to olshey in high school
Even the Clippers, those longtime losers, thought they could be a player this summer.
Kapono is different
Olshey was literally his coach at Artesia. After Olshey starting working for Arn Tellem, he met and worked with lots of players and prospects. But he’s known and worked directly with JK forever.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Jul 20, 2010 5:54 PM PDT up reply actions
In fact
Isn’t his work with Kapono the way Olshey got his break?
I think after Kapono he started working with more players and that’s how he got his start right?
It always takes that 1. Thorpe had Kevin Martin. I think Kapono was Olshey’s guy.
Had we signed Childress (or a comparable player) to a 5-year mid-level contract...
I’m just not seeing how that could have hurt us very much in the summer of 2012.
If things were working at that point, we’d have cap space to match offers for Gordon, plus Bird rights on Kaman. The extra $6M committed to our midlevel guy might have limited our flexibility somewhat, but not terrifically, and in the meantime we’d probably have a better sense of where our talent might take us. Not to mention, we’d have a quality player locked into a reasonable contract.
On the other hand, if things weren’t working by 2012, then we could still trash the project and start over. But that doesn’t mean we’d want to scrap everybody. Childress or whoever could have provided a bit of quality continuity, and again at an unextraordinary price.
I can see why picking up Deng or Iggy might have stuck us in a bind later on. But this mid-level stuff seems innocuous enough, and with the chance of a good payoff. So what’s the rebuttal?
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
Or that they simply don’t think Childress warrants 5 years at the MLE.
by Michael White on Jul 20, 2010 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm responding to SP's more general point
…it is very easy to make the argument that long term contracts for non-elite talent would have been the worst possible outcome for the Clippers this season.
It’s possible that the Clips simply decided not to pursue any long term deals. I’m open to argument, but I don’t like this strategy. Again, a mid-level guy wouldn’t have ruined us.
At this point, for me, the term “Childress” is really a place holder for the concept, “A quality mid-level guy whom we might have signed but didn’t.” I’m not obsessed with JChill in particular.
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
You seem obsessed. Especially since you bring it up to refute Steve’s point even though Steve specifically mentions in the article that he would have wanted to bring in Childress.
I wanted Childress, you wanted Childress, Steve wanted Childress, Clipper Chuck wanted Childress. It didn’t happen. There are plenty of possible reasons for why it didn’t happen and as long as we don’t have the answer we don’t have a smoking gun either.
by Michael White on Jul 20, 2010 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, I wanted Childress, too
As long as we’re talking about the Clippers under DTS, then we are long past the point where a smoking gun is needed. But what might have been isn’t worth dwelling on too much longer either. I’ve never been a Clipper fan because they had a great owner/management. Hopefully Gomes will turn out to be a great bargain, and AFA will be a quick learner.
I just got in this evening
to read your response here. So I can see, if and when I bring up the point again about NBA rebuilding strategy, I may want to avoid mentioning specific names. In all of this, JChill really has been beside the point.
In fact, I probably should have simply said, “Going forward this offseason, if we have an uncomplicated chance to sign quality help at midlevel money, we should not let a long time commitment get in the way. A good-fit, 5yr/$30M signing has the potential to help us a lot more than it might hurt us.” Smoking gun or not, my point is that we ought to be at least this aggressive in our free agent hunt. For all I know, the FO might even agree! The point would still be worth making.
But these aren’t fighting words. I’m not trying to take SP on here… I thought I was just engaging in his discussion topic. Of course, I want to hear what the other side has to say. In the summer of 2012, might having an extra mid-level guy hinder us in significant ways? JohnR actually gets at some of the numbers in his comment below, and I see that the situation is kind of complicated. I think he basically agrees with me, though.
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
Wouldn't mind Tmac...
at the right price and length as Steve has said. I saw Tmac play last year and it’s clear he’s no where close to the player he was in Orlando or even early in Houston, though he still shows the ability to pass and hit outside shots on occasion. If we could sign him for say $3-$4 million a year for 2 years, I wouldn’t think of it as the worst thing in the world. He would add some depth and scoring though I wouldn’t want him to start simply because he would take shots away from Eric and Blake. I think it all comes down to how Tmac views himself and if he can take a smaller role.
he was willing to take a smaller role in ny
of courese that was if they got lebron so..
Hopefully not too bad
They listed it as a sprain. He told me there was a small fracture. But he also said hopefully it won’t be too bad and he won’t be out too long. The question for a guy like him is whether he will risk hanging out through training camp, or whether he’ll sign a new contract in Europe when he gets the chance.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Jul 20, 2010 5:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Reading this is depressing...
…I’m starting to feel Deja Vu again.
In two years we will have to blow up this youth movement….start over…and do another youth movement.
Vicious cycle.
Change the owner, change the name, change the venue
This is the only way to break the “curse” (DTS). Maybe then a youth movement will stick because our young stars will extend their contracts (i.e. OKC).
"Excellence...is not an act, but a habit" Aristotle
by Cliptomaniac on Jul 20, 2010 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Since changing the owner, name & venue isn't going to happen
I do wonder if this 2 year plan is in effect since in 2 years we will have our lottery pick and the Timberwolves lottery pick (unprotected). It does make a good scenario to start fresh then. Aminu & Bledsoe will be 21, Blake will have 2 years experinece, we will see if Gordon improves or stays the same, we will have a lot of cap space. I want the Clippers to win now as much as everyone does, but if we can build a team for a long term rather than short term, I’m OK with 2 years of misery if it will work out in the long run. Yes, I know it’s a gamble, but do we really have any chance further than 2 years from now?????
I guess you're right
The key is that we must have enough success over the next two years to give the youngsters a reason to stay. It’ll probably all depend on what Blake Griffin does once he becomes a FA.
"Excellence...is not an act, but a habit" Aristotle
by Cliptomaniac on Jul 21, 2010 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions
BG is from Oklahoma
KD plays for Oklahoma
KD is a superstar, loyal, and has faith in his young teammates/team
KD will stick it out with OKC for as long as possible
I hope BG becomes out KD
Jordan had to wait 3 years for the Bulls to get Pippin
Putting together a winner takes time.
by Raining Buckets on Jul 21, 2010 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions
The Clippers have been terrible for the last three seasons
From when do we start counting, and when is that improvement supposed to start showing up as wins?
3 seasons!?
Try three decades! I say we start counting from 1984. I think 2014 would be a good year to pick as the time we should become a perennial playoff team like a Utah, Portland or San Antonio. A nice round 30 years.
"Excellence...is not an act, but a habit" Aristotle
by Cliptomaniac on Jul 21, 2010 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions
We start counting from Blake Griffin on.
it’s not that hard to undertand.
"Energizing the process, or turning it upside-down, fans now participate, writing blogs and posting comments and videos [...] the dialogue is to discourse what road rage is to driving." -Mark Heisler
by falconPUNCH on Jul 21, 2010 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions
If BG or the Clippers were afraid of letting BG play in the summer league
will he be allowed to scrimmage against the Rhino?
Doesn’t look like a playoff contender team to me. That is a huge hole at SF, and the depth looks terrible. This team would need everyone to stay healthy all year which hasn’t happened in any Clipper season I can remember. Hopefully they play hard for the new coach every night and work their way to 35-38 wins.
Very disappointed that Sofo did not bring more to the table. Was looking forward to seeing that big body work the NBA. What a waste of all these years talking about him. Glad the Rhino is back but that is about it when it comes to the summer signings, and I’m very unimpressed with our draft. Not a big fan of SF who don’t have good handles. Maybe he makes it up on the other end but I don’t see how he’s our future unless the future is as pedestrian as our past has been.
Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen
Current cap situation in July 2012
Depth chart under contract:
Davis/Bledsoe
XXX
Aminu/Gomes
Griffin
XXX
+ Draft Pick 2011, Draft Pick 2012(?), Draft Pick 2012MIN(?)
$29.58M under contract already + maybe average $6M total for the draft picks, could be more
Major Cap Holds:
Kaman (30) $18.3M
Gordon (24) $11.5M hold, pending RFA resolution
Foye (29) $5.2M
Total = As much as $70.58M
It is possible that one of the draft picks will go away to compensate OKC for Bledsoe and you can safely imagine they could renounce Foye. Kaman as a center of 30 will likely get an offer in the hood of $10 per so they will have to beat that or they have a big center problem. Alternately they can try to move BD’s expiring for a big and have a PG problem, which they have the next year either way. If they can do that and get Gordon back on the cheap at $8M (too much, but the Clippers may have to match that much or more), they can sit at as little as $41M, and still need to find a PG, a SG, and depth at the wing and frontcourt.
If they can’t do those things and keep Kaman they are capped out and still need a SG and lots of depth.
Its possible Foye and Gordon are somehow connected in Olshey’s mind, but it doesn’t make sense. No matter what each year you can have a guy for $6M per, but its not every year you can get a great player for that $6M. Accumulate assets whenever you can.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
The cap numbers look worse than it really is because of Baron
You forgot to note that Baron Davis’s contract would be an expiring deal with only 1 year left, and its taking up $15 million of that cap space. Gomes contract also would be an expiring deal with 1 year left at approx $5 million.
So once you lock in Kaman for $10 million, the total is closer to $62 million (probably right at the salary cap figure that year), and $20 million expires the following year with Baron and Gomes. It’s not a bad situation at all.
by ClippsFanSince91 on Jul 20, 2010 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Well I did note that it is expiring...
If Baron’s contract does expire in 2013 they will be doing the RFA thing with Griffin, so you need to replace a player at the same time as you are staring a max contract extension in the face.
I think a larger undercurrent I was getting at is there is a thousand variables between then and now, and a least a couple knowns much bigger than Foye and his $4M and certainly MUCH bigger than the difference between what Gomes got and what Childress got. Yes Foye’s contract expires when Gordon may get his extension, but that just means he is a cap hold and they need a new combo guard. Foye and Gordon shouldn’t be linked in any way.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Fine
But ignore Foye specifically – Gay for the max would be a problem for resigning Gordon. The point being, a bad long term contract is a worse thing than a bad short term contract, which I think we can all agree with. I would have been thrilled with Childress for five years at what he’s making (or LeBron James for that matter). But I haven’t seen many other 5 year deals I would touch.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Jul 20, 2010 6:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Mike Miller for 5/25 million
is a good deal, of course the Heat got the championship discount.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 20, 2010 6:52 PM PDT up reply actions
And the Florida "no sales tax" discount
Miller rejected a decent offer from the Lakers, too.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
LOL, I meant income tax, not sales tax
Not a morning person.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
youth movement
Only really pans out when you find a KD, LBJ, DWade. I hope BG can be that guy, so we’ll have to see.
I think we should just offer Jeremy Lin a contract and call it a year….. go for a re-do next offseason haha.
Lin doesn't make sense
I watched Lin and like his game plenty, but he just doesn’t have a slot here. They have guaranteed contracts in Bledsoe and Foye. Where is Lin going to play? What’s the point of offering him a real contract? He’s a combo guard at best, but most likely a PG. There’s no reason to have two rookie backups.
Bledsoe is the guy they targeted to develop, and unless you’re David Kahn, you give him the next two years to develop into a starting PG. If he doesn’t, then you look elsewhere. But they’ve committed guaranteed money and it’s only reasonable to give him every minute behind Baron that he can handle.
If Baron goes down, the last thing you want is two rookies trying to run the team.
yea, but I just like the kid
I didn’t really want him in a basketball sense, haha. He just seemed like he’d be a fan favorite. Lets get Sun Yue too, DTS has to want a share of that Chinese Media Money
I like him too
I came to this conclusion b/c I was actually thinking about whether there’s a way to fit him.
I just don’t think there is. I guess it could be argued they should just drop Willie Warren and put Lin in that slot.
not a basketball decision
But I would have stayed with Warren because his Girffins buddy and when he played with Griffin he was considered a lottery pick.
Lin wasn’t/isn’t either
I’m glad the Clippers are so good that they can make decisions for non-basketball reasons.
by Michael White on Jul 21, 2010 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions
because Lin, following BDavis and EBledso isn't redundant
and a dumb bball move…
"Energizing the process, or turning it upside-down, fans now participate, writing blogs and posting comments and videos [...] the dialogue is to discourse what road rage is to driving." -Mark Heisler
by falconPUNCH on Jul 21, 2010 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions
I’m not arguing one way or the other. Just laughing at the idea that the Clippers would or should make decisions like that for non-basketball reasons.
by Michael White on Jul 21, 2010 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions
Tmac or Kapono???
I know most of you are probably laughing at the idea of taking Kapono over Tmac. However, the truth is if Tmac demands a contract length of 2 or more years it probably makes more sense for the Clippers to trade for Kapono’s and his expiring contract.
Locking in Kapono, combined with Rhino and DJ’s expiring contracts would give the Clippers serious cap space for next years free agents. They’d simply have to ship off Foye or Gomes and they’d be able to make a max offer to Carmelo, Tony Parker (Eva L. belongs in LA), or Yao!!!
In my dream world, the Clippers lock in Tmac to a 1 year deal after tomorrow’s workout.
by ClippsFanSince91 on Jul 20, 2010 3:36 PM PDT reply actions
I think we'd all agree
No one wants to give TMac a bad contract, to sign him for more than two years, or to pay him “real” money (whatever that is in the NBA). TMac as to prove his value, rather than get paid for past services that, truth be told, he wasn’t able to perform.
So it’s not a joke to bring in Kapono over a bad TMac contract. Few would disagree.
But TMac wanting to join the Clips for a short term because he wants to be part of a team that might need him, so he can prove that he still has value, that’s a different story.
by citizen zhiv on Jul 20, 2010 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm tired of looking at next year....
can’t clips just win THIS year?!
ugh.
No
They won’t be good enough. That’s what happens when you trade your good players for cap space.
by Michael White on Jul 20, 2010 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Really?
Because if Camby and Thornton were here then the team would be a contender?
The team doesn’t have a superstar and it’s not possible to win w/o one. We need Blake to be that superstar. That’s what you spend the #1 overall pick for. When franchises successfully draft a legit star #1 overall, the franchise becomes elite in a couple of years. When franchises draft busts, that franchise is crippled.
It’s all on Blake’s shoulders…it has been since May 2009.
No. My point is now as it was then. Camby and Thornton could have been traded for assets that would have helped the team in 2010 and beyond. As could have Randolph. All of those players were moved for capspace to get Lebron. Either you agree with the move or disagree with the moves to clear out space for Lebron, but when it doesn’t work out you can’t blame management for not being able to field a better team this year.
by Michael White on Jul 20, 2010 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions
"Either you agree with the move or disagree with the moves to clear out space for Lebron, but when it doesn’t work out you can’t blame management for not being able to field a better team this year."
The Chicago Bulls are confused by this claim.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
With so many holes
The Clippers had plenty of opportunity. They passed.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
No, Bulls improved mainly because of Boozer
An upgrade at PF through FA was not really an option for us. You take out the Boozer add, the Bulls and Clippers offseason are both ho-hum.
Not just Boozer
The Bulls had two big holes – PF and SG. I would have liked Kyle Korver on the Clippers, and Ronnie Brewer and CJ Watson were also nice pickups. The Bulls made a pretty nice recovery after missing out on LeBron.
Sorry, at most that's a wash between the Clippers and Bulls if you ignore Boozer.
Korver, Brewer and Watson are role pieces in the same way that Gomes, Foye, Smith are. Fact is, if they hadn’t gotten Boozer, Bulls would be no where (consider that they gave away Hinrich).
Point is still that our holes weren’t easily addressable as Chicago’s (PF).
Sounds an awful lot like excuses and revisionist history. The Clippers had plenty of options to bring in a small forward heading into the off season, and they aren’t likely to have more in the near future.
Seriously? How many quality PF's were there in FA compared to quality SF's?
Excuses and revisionist history? Please.
You can criticize the Clippers moves, fine (btw, they did bring in two small forwards and may still bring in a third)…but to compare their moves with the Bulls whose biggest need happened to be the most readily available among impact players is simply unfair.
That’s like comparing someone trying to make a free throw vs a half court shot.
While I disagree that Boozer shouldn’t be strongly considered when rating the Bulls’ offseason, I’m primarily looking at how how the Bulls plugged their other holes, especially at SG. There were fewer options at SG than at SF, and the Bulls seemed to be in the running for most of them.
They quickly signed Kyle Korver, and when Orlando matched their offer for JJ Redick, they grabbed Ronnie Brewer. Then they traded for CJ Watson, too. They didn’t overpay for any of them either. That is the aggressive approach I wanted to see from the Clippers.
Maybe but doubtful
It’s doubtful that Thornton could have been traded for anything of significant value. He was pretty bad all year and a guy his age just doesn’t have a ton of value around the league. What do you think the team could have gotten for him?
As for Camby, I do think they made a crappy trade and said so at the time. But I highly doubt that Camby’s expiring contract was worth a piece that would have made this team a contender.
The reality is that Camby, Thornton and even ZBo had limited value collectively. Even if they decided to ignore cap space, what kind of pieces were they going to get? Nobody who would make this team a contender.
I’ll keeping hanging onto the “basically all the epxirings” for Caron Butler and Jamison proposal which had been discussed on this blog last year before the deadline.
by Michael White on Jul 20, 2010 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions
What does that really do though?
Butler is nowhere near an $11 mil player and Jamison is 34 yrs old making $13+ mil.
What does that team do? It has nowhere to go but down. So they make that trade at the deadline and probably still fall short of the playoffs.
Then this year is that a 50+ win team? Because it sure as heck isn’t after a lockout and Jamison is 36 and making $15 mil.
But it still fits into that 2012 plan Steve outlines above (I think.)
It puts a competitive product on the floor but the contracts expire at the right time. If BG is all that and more, I truly believe Jamison is movable.
Is it definitely a playoff team? Certainly not. But its a more talented squad that could make the playoffs if things go right. Simply playing in a playoff push or the playoffs themselves would be great experience for BG and Gordon instead of tanking the last 2 months of the year.
by Michael White on Jul 20, 2010 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Maybe
I don’t think so though. I just don’t see that team as a playoff team at all. I see it as a 41 win team at best. Still well shy of the playoffs with no upside. So basically we’re still in the same boat, only with a worse lottery pick. That’s not a meaningful impact.
Butler and Jamison certainly didn’t make significant impacts on the respective teams they were traded to.
That’s why my position has always been that you have to go after Lebron (like really go after him…not just show up and ask for pictures and autographs for 45 minutes and then send out a press release). He’s the only move they could have made that turns this whole team around.
Absent that, the franchise rests on Blake Griffin. And much like the Thunder won’t waste their money on big signings that could hurt KD, the Clips need to do the same. You see exactly what kind of player Blake is, pray he’s legit, and then use your resources to build around him.
I don’t think we disagree on that point…I’m just saying that trading for Butler and Jamison wouldn’t have done much. We’d still be where we are today for the most part.
Big, Big Point
is that Butler or Jamison didn’t make impacts on the teams they joined.
Another is that Butler’s put up some great stats, but never on a very good Wizards team and we remember seeing flashes of potential when he was with the Lakers but that team sucked.
We’ve needed a three point shooter, a plus defender, with some all around game, and it doesn’t seem like Caron is that guy.
They didn't?
Says who? Jamison was great as a Cav and Butler was very nice as a Mav.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
That's a bit of a stretch
Jamison was just okay as a Cav and Butler was average. Neither were capable of doing anything to help their teams win in the playoffs. And certainly neither are worth the cost, Jamison is very expensive (2 yrs 28.5 million) and Butler is a greatly declining player.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 20, 2010 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Jamison
Jamison was completely misused as a Cav. He’s a unique scorer, who they tried to turn into just another spread the floor shooter because no one can take touches away from LeBron (here that, Dwyane?)
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Jul 20, 2010 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions
I might have to modify my opinion below
I didn’t watch the Cavs too much
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
He got absolutely destroyed by KG
and his touches per 36 minutes remained the same. Jamison’s real value will be next summer when he becomes a big expiring contract.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 20, 2010 6:56 PM PDT up reply actions
I blame Mike Brown's offense for the failures you mention
LeBron and Wade will coexist quite well.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
What was the cost and how was it not worth it?
Now that the summer is almost complete we can see what the cost is.
If the Clippers had done that deal they can still draft Aminu, trade for Bledsoe and sign their choice of Gomes or Foye and Brian Cook with the MLE.
Basically, the cost of that deal would have been Gomes or Foye. I find this cost acceptable. Then instead of Gomes or Foye and an awkward $7M or so in cap space you have a $10M expiring contract this season and you will be able to use the MLE next season if you choose.
And since this started going out to 2012 you have a $13M expiring, a $15M expiring, and a $4M expiring which is actual flexibilty to improve instead of just replace.
It is what it is.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Down with nowhere to go > nowhere to go but down?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
It is kinda true
Nothing substantial resulted in the Thornton/Camby/Telfair deals, except the Clips got a few million in cash. Teams were desperate to Clear cap space at the time, I’m sure something of value could have resulted..even a few 2nd round picks could have helped. Alas, nothing resulted, and no Lebron.
We’ll see how things turn out. TMAC would clearly help this team…he’s a great passer and knows his role at this point in his career. Not sure what type of “mentor” he would be, but if it helps the team win a few more games, player and fan morale would greatly be improved. Maybe in the end, that’s more important….a sign of hope that the year is not awash before it’s even started.
This is going to be my team, and we're going to rise together.
-Clipper Darrell
They also have new management and their most talented player is a rookie
It will take some time
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
uh no
How do you propose they do that?
It’s easy to complain…but if you were the GM what magic trick would you pull that would somehow allow them to “win” this year?
There’s only one dude in the league who would have made that kind of impact, and he’s in Miami as part of the Superfriends.
I'm not talking about this specific year...
I’m talking about nearly my entire tenure as a Clipper fan (circa mid 90’s).
With exception of the playoff run in 05-06…
…all I ever do is look forward to “next year” or the “growth of a youth movement” only to be let down.
Then the cycle repeats.
It’s growing old.
That doesn't make sense
You obviously are talking about this specific year. You specifically said “can’t clips just win THIS year?!”
It makes zero sense to be let down or sad right now. What is there to be disappointed about? If you thought they were going to land Lebron, ok fine. But anything else and this team wasn’t going to “win” this year (by “win” I’m assuming you mean contend).
It's a combination of sentiments
Why hasn’t the management put the team into position to win by now?
I realize that it is too late….to actually set up the team to win this year….
We are always of the mindset, “oh well, there’s always next year….!”
I’m tired of waiting until next year, I want the team to win this year.
Nonsense.
The motto around here was not about a youth movement. It was about getting Lebron. Well, trying to get Lebron and failing has consequences. Now the Clips need to build for a future 2-3 years down the line when BG is in his prime. It is what it is.
Blaming management is silly, considering they implemented a strategy that was endorsed by 99% of the citizens of this blog.
by Michael White on Jul 20, 2010 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Ironic isn't it?
They bet the farm on Lebron, and when they went to make their pitch, they made a JV pitch that was hardly remembered by anybody.
That’s my gripe. I fully endorsed the Lebron move. To me, it was the only move that would have made a significant impact. If not Lebron, their only hope is that Griffin is all that we hope he is and build around him.
BUT to make all these moves to free up cap space and then make an idiotic presentation with a DVD of restaurants was just laughable.
Agreed
we had the lamest presentation but according to some it was brilliant zag.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 20, 2010 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions
It doesn't matter
The Clips had a minor outside chance…but at the end, it was between Chicago and Miami. Did Lebron take 5 teams hostage? Kinda, but it was a chance the teams had to take. Lame presentation or not, he’s in Miami, not NYK or LA.
This is going to be my team, and we're going to rise together.
-Clipper Darrell
What happened to all those previous youth movements?
How many youth movements have there been?
It’s a perpetual youth movement with this org.
Youth movement = small contracts and cost savings.
I’m not fully convinced that they went full force for LeBron. They might have looked at it as a way to dump salary without backlash.
Well, the last youth movement resulted in the playoff run didn’t it?
It’s not like there has been one since that point. I mean, they got the number 1 pick and it makes sense (especially now) to build around him. He got hurt meaning the BG years start a year later. Again, don’t see how you pin that on management.
by Michael White on Jul 20, 2010 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions
btw
I’m not saying management shouldn’t be criticized.
This franchise has been terrible. They don’t deserve the benefit of the doubt.
Just saying that this team couldn’t have built a contender over one summer once they missed on Lebron.
This is my position.
…and I am very disappointed.
Call it…the near breaking point.
I don't get your position
If you’re complaining about 20 years worth then yeah we’ve all been there. Not signing Childress or another random FA doesn’t change that.
You’re basically taking the position that you just want to complain for the sake of it. I mean, you want them to win this year but admit that there isn’t a move that can be made to make that happen.
I do want to win...be a contender
But honestly…I’d just like to see something. Some sign of progress…playoffs.
Take steps, to become contender you need to become a regular playoff team first.
With Childress the team has a much better chance at making the playoffs.
From there the team can build on its rep to attract FAs.
Being bottom of the league does not make FAs want to sign with the Clips.
I'm so disappointed..
…I’m barely coherent…
I understand
but it takes 50 wins to make the playoffs. 50! That’s insane. Childress does not make this team a playoff team.
I think it was dumb of management to lose out in Childress, but it’s not nearly as crucial as some are making it out to be (like mwhite said above).
It's not always going to take 50 wins
All of the star free agents went to the east! The top 3 picks in this years draft were won by Eastern teams ping pong balls. Last years draft gave the #1 pick to a western conference team, but it was the Clippers!! Times will get better and easier for the Clippers to make the Western conference playoffs in the near future.
I watch for the aging Suns, Spurs, Nuggets, and the Boozer-less Jazz all to take steps backwards. Granted the Jazz did add Jefferson, but they lost a lot more than just Boozer also! Chemistry is important!
by ClippsFanSince91 on Jul 21, 2010 8:51 PM PDT up reply actions
What?
Boozerless but they added Al Jefferson. Its not really that much of a downgrade.
Nuggets are aging but their core still remains: Carmelo Anthony and while you say Chauncy Billups is aging, Ty Lawson is also young and getting better.
Spurs are not the ideal team getting younger, but its still hard to argue against them and say their not a 50 win team still.
Suns are the only exception. They may have lost Amare, but they got Warrick also. Whos to say that Nash won’t make Warrick into a 15-10 player? I mean he did a great job with Frye didn’t he?
Then you also have to factor in Houston. Yao was out all year, and they still did pretty well. So Yao + Kevin Martin + Battier+ Ariza + Scola + Brooks can all be had in a valid argument. So to assume that you still need approx. 50 wins to get into the playoffs this year is a very solid hypothesis.
Why does it take a magic trick?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Do they have to go straight to championship contender?
The desire is to win now. Winning some more now then stepping up to championship contender seems more easily done then waiting around for the perfect moment to make a leap.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
If your best player has never played an NBA game, is "win now" realistic?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Why wouldnt it be?
A rookie Blake Griffin didn’t have to be the best player.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Jul 20, 2010 9:20 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
We tried for LBJ and like all except Miami failed
Who would you have selected?
Bosh? No, same position.
Wade, no he wasn’t coming here.
It’s nice to criticize but there aren’t alot of potential superstars out there.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
I don't think it takes a superstar to be better than a rookie Blake Griffin
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
then, who would you have taken
gay, JJ….i don’t really think there was a player in FA better than griffin, except for the max guys
Looks like it's just arguing to argue (against Clipper FO)
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
You had a good run trying to make it not personal
It was only a matter of time though.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Actually, my friend, you never tried
And my point is a fact
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Childress, for one
Will be better next year than Griffin.
The hope is that some day soon Griffin becomes the best player on the team, but there is nothing external forcing the Clippers to wait around for that day.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Yes but the moves suggested don't do that
That’s my point. Would trading for Butler and Jamison have helped the team win more games? Probably. Would it have made the team a 50 win team to make the playoffs? No. That team wouldn’t have outperformed the Thunder. And then you’re just adding two pieces at over $20 mil that are declining. So would that team “win more” going forward? Probably not. So what’s the point?
Would it have been good to sign a guy like Josh Childress? Yes absolutely. Would it have made this team a playoff team in 10-11? No.
After the missed out on Lebron, it was very reasonable for the team to add small contracts with value and wait to see exactly what we have in Griffin. Once we see him this season, then the true building can begin.
Of course they can very easily botch that up and I’ll be upset if they do. But as of this exact instant, they haven’t ruined anything. They could have done better, but all is not lost because we missed out on Josh Childress for 5 years.
The other side of that coin
is that Jamison and Butler begin expiring as it becomes time to extend Griffin. In the meantime Griffin will have had a few years of winning basketball under his belt, and be more inclined to stay.
If he plays his first three years for a loser, that’s not really good.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Winning basketball?
What’s the definition of that phrase? As I said above, this team with Jamison and Butler is not a 50 win playoff team. It’s much closer to a 41 win team and only declining.
So instead of giving the youth plenty of time and touches to learn and grow, we give the minutes and shots to Baron, Butler, Jamison and Kaman to lead this team to around .500 and low lottery. Is that “winning basketball.” Does that really make Griffin more inclined to stay?
Doubtful. Stockpile young talent and assets, give the kids plenty of minutes to learn and grow and build around Griffin.
Hmmm
“So instead of giving the youth plenty of time and touches to learn and grow”…
Is there any evidence this is required? Can you point me to examples of players who would have been great but didn’t get enough minutes?
Stockpile young talent and assets…
Assets such as expiring contracts? Expiring contracts and young talent are not exclusive in any way.
When does the building start?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
We're in the midst of it I thought
Is there any evidence this is required? Can you point me to examples of players who would have been great but didn’t get enough minutes?
No do you have any evidence that doing so hinders development in any way? What you’re asking for is virtually impossible. Players “who would have been great”? How is anyone supposed to prove that?
All I know is that quite a few scouts and trainers have stated that players need minutes and experience to develop. Go ask David Thorpe, who has said that quite a few times and is more readily accessible than most scouts/trainers.
As for expiring contracts, I never said they’re mutually exclusive to young talent. Who ever said we shouldn’t add expiring contracts? You’re taking two separate points and confusing them. Butler & Jamison were both high priced vets who shoot a lot and expiring contracts. I don’t have a problem with expiring contracts. I do have a problem with bringing in expensive aging vets who shoot a lot. I’d rather gives those shots to the kids.
Who's talking about limiting minutes?
Griffin would certainly be the starting 4, Butler would start at the 3.
Jamison could have been a very solid 6th man, or been moved in the offseason.
Where is the dilemma?
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Is Griffin the only youth on this team?
And you don’t address shots at all. Butler and Jamison are both guys who take quite a few shots. So clearly shots would be taken away from EJ and Griffin and playing time would be limited for Aminu (or whomever we drafted).
And my overall point is this…so what? They didn’t make that move…what did they lose out on? A lower lottery pick. They certainly weren’t a playoff team. And both Butler and Jamison are only a year older this year. So…what exactly did we miss out on by not making that move?
Aminu would be the backup SF
which he is anyway. Neither Griffin nor Gordon are volume shooters anyway. In fact, what this team lacks is a go to scorer. Butler is close.
LeBron would have limited touches, too, by the way.
It would have been a good move. Possible playoff team.
Hindsight now.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
are you actually
comparing butler and jamison to lebron. i don’t think anyone here would complain if lebron took touches away from griffin, gordon and aminu
No comparision
Obviously.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
FWIW
Kobe only started 7 games his first two years combined and averaged only 15mpg his first year.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
And?
Lebron James started in 79 games and averaged 39.5 mpg his first year.
Look at a guy like Jermaine O’neal, who languished on Portland’s bench for 4 years behind high priced vets. He got almost no playing time and Portland just gave up on him.
Then he goes to Indiana, finally gets minutes and shots and becomes an all-star.
Well that's the point
But you are saying Jermaine O’Neal was good as soon as he got to start? I agree. The team might lose value by having a great player on the bench, but it doesn’t hold back the players development. It wasn’t the case that O’Neal had to go to IND THEN play 3 more years to be good. His per36 stats in POR are right in line and his year by year totals by his age doesn’t seem to have been affected at all by being behind the jailblazer bigs.
There is a lot of belief about needing minutes, but there doesn’t seem to be any actual evidence of a connection whatsoever.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
No I'm saying O'Neal finally got a chance to get better
What you said supports my point. His per36 stats didn’t change much at all during his years in Portland. In fact, they got worse from his rookie year, and just stayed there til he got to Indiana.
In Indiana he scored more per36 and his PER shot way up. Then his numbers continued to climb each year after that.
So those 4 years in Portland where his numbers didn’t improve at all show why a player needs minutes and experience. Once he got that in Indiana he not only became a better player immediately, but he finally started to get better.
Dunleavy stunted his growth.
Rasheed Wallace and others in Portland said they couldn’t figure out why O’Neal was stuck on the bench. Maybe not in rookie year but the years after that. If he had played and grown, Portland would have been a dynasty to rival the Lakers. No wonder Rasheed hates Dunleavy to this day. Then again, he hates a lot of people.
Then again, Sheed isn't the only player who hates Dunleavy
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
His numbers went up because he got older
Just like any other player.
Just like Kobe.
Minutes don’t matter.
But since your constraint is winning a championship, I guess getting Griffin 35 minutes instead of 15 means they are only 3 seasons away!
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Then how do you explain his years in Portland?
Was he in some suspended animation where he didn’t get older in the 4 years he was in Portland?
The only meaningful difference between his years in Portland, where he didn’t improve at all in 4 years, and his years in Indiana, where he consistently improved until he hit his prime, is…minutes.
Kobe should never be used as an example of anything (except I guess a selfish egomaniac). He’s almost always the exception to the rule. Just like Lebron. Minutes matter to the majority of players.
Next year's free agents? Do we really have a chance of getting any good ones?
We got zippo with our “Max Resources” in a FA bonanza year that has been on everyone’s radar for a long time. Either because of past Clipper Lore or other teams paying too much, who can we really expect to get. We were probably luck to get Mobley and Baron when they were FAs…..
My friends, this perpetual rebuilding will have to come from the Lottery and draft, assuming we can re-sign the good players when their contract expires. That’s what the cap space is really there for when it comes to the Clippers. MD resigned Brand and Mags in 2003 and resigned Kaman later. This is why the TWovles 2012 pick is so valuable to the Clipper’s hopes to rebuild. Did Neil O trade it for Bledsoe? This franchise has been keeping the details of this trade secret since the draft. That can’t be good.
Let’s look at management’s level of honesty over the past 9 months.
- They said Griffin would be ready in about 8 weeks and he missed the entire season
- They said they would use Max Resources this offseason yet we weren’t able to use those resources to get a good caliber wing, like J Childress and decided to spend $1M on B Cook vs $2M on Sofo
- They haven’t revealed the details of the Bledsoe trade because it’s “complicated”.
Do you trust this franchise?
Got glass half full (if you want it)
For the last couple of years I’m not really sure how much confidence our team has had after the first few games. Obviously, two years ago was an absolute train wreck of a start w/ BD not seeing a reason to even really try.
Last season we had raised expectations after landing Blake Griffin and adding some much needed depth, and the team played better with a more complete roster, a healthy Kaman, and more reason to play for BD.
This year?
In order for us to compete we need a dominant player, and it’s no secret that we’re hoping Blake Griffin can be that guy. After summer league and preseason last year he was showing signs of being able to become that kind of player. Now a year later, there are major concerns as to whether he’ll simply be able to get through the season. Our only shot at playoffs this year is for this to be a ROY type of campaign for BG.
Eric Gordon. I really feel like EJ battled nagging injuries pretty much all season last year, not allowing him to get into the groove that he found in his rookie year. I think if he has luck with his health and hamstrings especially, he’s got a shot to really break out in his third year. He’s at the right age for it, and he has a good two year base of NBA experience to help him play a little bit more like a vet and with more confidence, something that could do wonders for his game.
The Three. This has been talked about ad naseum no doubt, and I’m not hearing anyone speculating that we’re better than last year. If nothing else, we’ll have more size at the position this year, and with Gomes ability to shoot the three and Aminu’s upside there is again some hope these guys can do better than those who came before.
PG. It’s also possible we see BD’s best year as a Clipper. He’ll have better pieces around him if Griffin and Gordon stay healthy, and he also figures to have better talent behind him in Foye and Bledsoe.
So if you’re inclined to be optimistic, there are things to watch and root for. This isn’t a doom and gloom roster by any means, and with plenty of cap flexibility post season shouldn’t be expected, but it shouldn’t be out of the question either.
by ghost_ride on Jul 20, 2010 4:10 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
I'm on team optimism
in terms of product on the floor (this doesn’t necessarily translate into wins)
I'm definitely hopeful
but that hope rests completely on Griffin. He has to be as good as advertised.
I think this team will be fun to watch and cheer for. It has youth and excitement and tons of upside.
But this team isn’t a playoff team. Sorry but it isn’t. 50 wins? Not unless Blake is way better than advertised.
I’d love to see the development. EJ needs to take a huge leap, Griffin needs to stay healthy and be what we hoped he would, and AFA, DJ and/or Bled have to look like they belong.
Still fragile
While the starting lineup is pretty good, injuries to any of them will likely have serious consequences. Last season it seemed the Clips couldn’t win without all their starters, and I don’t see that changing.
Foye looks like the only bench player who could credibly step into the starting lineup without impacting the team too badly. That’s why the team needed and still needs another quality wing. Childress seemed like the best choice, but there were plenty of other available options at reasonable prices that would have provided depth.
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A question for Clipper Steve...
So, you did everything but pick a number of wins. If it’s the same team, without the mid-season flop can they go .500? Or are you in the 34-40 neighborhood. You have to choose.
Was Craig Smith even a factor last year ?
I only remember Craig Smith as the Blake Griffin injurer. I wish the Clips could have gotten Luke Harangody. He plays the exact same game as the Rhino, and plus he can shoot the 3 ball. Plus he would’ve been far cheaper.
Lakers win
That’s all you have to point to. Baron had a great game, but Smith was literally our only offense at times. He’s just a consistent, high percentage low post scorer.
by ghost_ride on Jul 20, 2010 10:50 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Yup...
At times our bench was completely stagnant on offense, and Smith would, at times, score enough to keep us in games. I think it’s really good having him come off of the bench to help hold things down, especially if he is in the game with DJ.
"look, you can find any coach you want, bring him in here and run the situation. But I don't think they are going to do as good a job as I do." -Mike Dunleavy Sr.
by CLiPPz WeRD 12 on Jul 21, 2010 12:22 AM PDT up reply actions
Exactly
I think his role is somewhat comparable to Glen Davis in Boston, another undersized PF who can get buckets. If Craig can add the midrange J to his arsenal, that would definitely make him more valuable. David Lee figured that out last season and now he’s getting PAID.
by Raining Buckets on Jul 21, 2010 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions
I have faith in the 2 year plan!!!!
In 2 years, AFA & Bledsoe are 21 & Blake has 2 years experience and is still young, as it Gordon. We’ll have probably 2 lottery picks in ours and the T-Wolves, & we’ll have Baron’s expiring contract. That could make for a stellar young team to take us eventually to the playoffs longer than fixing 1 hole right now. As much as I want the Clippers to win now, I’d rather they win for the long term if it meant not winning now. How can you as a lifer Clips fan deny that?
i talked to kapono once ...
i told him to come to the clippers and he kinda just laughed it off
I always bring this up
people wonder why the Clips can’t get free agents.
No one wants to come to the Clippers
Unfortunately, yes
We can blame the FO for bad contracts (and for signing up bums like Brian Cook), but it’s not really management’s fault that players dismiss our team. Best case scenario, in my opinion, is that this team puts together a better-than-expected season led by BG. The Clippers need to really show that they are REALLY one piece away from contending. As fans, we all knew that we, along with the Bulls, had the best supporting cast for LeBron to come here. But because of his injury, Griffin has remained an unknown quantity; had he played last year, I think our pursuit of LeBron would not have been treated like a joke by the media.
Anyway, my point is that if our guys can put together a nice season (playoff appearance encouraged but not required) and create some OKC/Portland “young team” buzz, FA’s will be more interested in signing up for 2011.
by Raining Buckets on Jul 21, 2010 10:05 AM PDT reply actions
It's not management's fault that players dismiss our team?
That’s news. Then whose fault is it? Is there some mass conspiracy to keep the Clips down?
It’s obviously management’s fault (primarily the owner). If they had run this franchise better over the last 25 years, players wouldn’t dismiss our team.
If you want to not be dismissed you might want to win some of the bidding wars
Instead of taking a strange pride in never ever ever overpaying.
The Clippers need to be overpaying, smartly and with a clear target, but overpaying indeed.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
The Clippers won the bidding war for Baron Davis?
You pleased about that?
by Michael White on Jul 21, 2010 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions
That's not a complete assessment of what happened
By the time the free agency period truly opened the Clippers had two choices, finish the deal they had agreed to with Baron Davis during the moratorium or not finish the deal.
To me, not continuing the deal actually does go to the Clippers being a team you can dismiss and being cheap. So it wasn’t a bidding war per se, but as perceptions go, I think you have to continue with the deal after Brand bails. The contract obviously isn’t as good once Brand wasn’t included in the deal, but that was the situation they were left with.
I guess someone could disagree, but to me you have to still close the deal you agreed to if the player still wants to proceed.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
The problem with Baron's deal isn't the length or amount of money
it’s that Baron hasn’t played well.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
But it was a bidding war
between GSW and LAC. And LAC was willing to pay Baron way more than Golden State was.
So…the Clips won. What’s the problem?
How was that a bidding war?
GS offered one year, we offered five years
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
No
the Warriors didn’t make him a offer because Baron shocked everyone and opted out of a 17.8 million year at the 11th hour. Smart move by Baron, he secured himself a long term deal, if he had finished up that final year and had a similar 2008-2009 year with the Warriors he would have had a hard time getting more than the MLE last summer.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 21, 2010 9:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Um, yes
There was no bidding war, as I said.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Oops, meant to edit that before I posted. I meant to say that GS never made an offer (not even one year), Baron opted out and agreed to a deal with the Clippers before the Warriors figured out what was going on.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 21, 2010 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Dude, there were no other bidders
GS had no interest in a long term deal. No one else could afford it. There was no bidding war and there would not have been any bidding war.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
We will never know
the belief has always been that Baron and the Clippers had a secret deal which is why Baron opted out to begin with. It was a complete shock to the league he became available. Baron probably talked to FElton… the Clippers were planning to sign Udrih to the full MLE before BD became available last second.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 21, 2010 10:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Sorry but that's irrelevant
There were no other bidders or teams that had the money to bid on him.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
A few other teams had cap space
as well as sign and trades. I’ll use your favorite, provide proof that there wasn’t a better offer.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 22, 2010 1:49 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm sorry but
(1) I don’t have time;
(2) It’s not really that important; and
(3) I’m right.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Got you
We all know there is never any proof that you are right.
1) You have time
2) Agreed, it isn’t important
3) You don’t know that for sure, the burden is on you (see your Childress argument below).
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 23, 2010 2:14 AM PDT up reply actions
it must be sad
To have nothing better to do. We all know that you’re arguing just to argue. Feel free not to respond. If you want to pay me I will do your research for you.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Jul 23, 2010 8:08 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Haha
its you who lead the sad existence.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 23, 2010 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Uh...
One team made a bid…which you claim was one year.
The Clips made a bigger bid…five years.
Who won? The Clips. It’s really not that hard.
Never said there was a bigger bid
just that the Warriors never made a offer period. Baron opted out of his one year.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 22, 2010 1:49 AM PDT up reply actions
And the alternative to Baron was ...what?
Beno Udrih for the mid-level? Another year of Brevin Knight and Dan Dickau?
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
There was no bidding war - the Clippers vastly overpaid bidding against themselves
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
I'm ok with that
But that’s not going to change perception. Only winning will. You think overpaying Josh Childress or any other middle range FA will do anything to change this team’s rep? Sorry, it won’t.
Only winning will. Nothing else. That’s why I’m not upset with what they’ve done (or haven’t done) this summer. They didn’t screw up the chance to build a winner around Griffin.
Now don’t get me wrong, they could have done better and probably should have. But I’m not a fan of railing against management for not making minor moves that ultimately would have had a fairly small impact on wins and losses.
Well
They didn’t have to overpay to get Childress. And then that would have led to winning. And then…
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
How do you know that Childress would have come to the Clips?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
How do you know he wouldn't?
One question is as arbitrary as the other.
I feel confident assuming that there is some amount of money the Clippers could have offered Childress that they legally had under the cap that would have compelled him to come to LAC.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Not really
There were many teams vying for his services. You are arguing that our FO screwed up (something you do on a daily basis) because they didn’t (according to you) try for JChill.
One problem with your argument, such that it is, is that you cannot establish that he would have come here. There are too many variables. I don’t have to establish that he wouldn’t.
It’s your burden, my man.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
This wasn't the worst Clippers offseason
nor was it the best. It was actually pretty typical.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
not if you count Blake Griffin's return.
"Energizing the process, or turning it upside-down, fans now participate, writing blogs and posting comments and videos [...] the dialogue is to discourse what road rage is to driving." -Mark Heisler
That's not really part of the off-season
Griffin is under contract so of course he is returning just like Kaman, Baron, EJ and DJ. I suppose we can be glad the Clippers didn’t trade him, but the fact that he was injured last year doesn’t make the off-season any better or worse.
Yes it does. It was far worse!
Had Griffin played, the Clippers would have pushed for a playoff spot, and had more hype behind Griffin’s abilities. Yet, he didn’t play, and it cost the Clippers a chance at any of the star free agents.
What the Clippers got from the injury was Aminu. This pick would have more likely been Luke Babbit in the middle of the 1st round, with far less upside, if Griffin had been healthy.
Where this leaves the Clippers is waiting one more year to display Griffins talent, and then spend the cap space they have acquired.
by ClippsFanSince91 on Jul 21, 2010 8:59 PM PDT up reply actions
By management I meant the CURRENT front office; I should have specified
I think we can all agree that DTS is at fault. And, yes, the cumulative efforts of Clippers management over the years has been a serious problem. But we can’t be dropping 25 years of losing in a new GM’s lap and expect an instant turnaround, especially coming off a pretty underachieving losing season.
We weren’t the only team that missed out on FA’s. I didn’t see any top flight guys lining up to go to Charlotte, Minny, Toronto, Cleveland, or Jersey. There were a lot of better teams with a lot of money to throw around, and those teams were going to have first dibs on the best players.
by Raining Buckets on Jul 21, 2010 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Should Clippers sign Tmac, or offer the world for Chris Paul???
Tmac under a 1 year deal would round out a solid starting 5, and a team with a deep bench full of prospects. The Clippers could go out and win 40 to 50 games and maybe be a 7th or 8th seed. Next summer the Clippers would have $11 million or so to spend on a top tier free agent looking to join this young rising team.
Or, they can leverage everything and make a run for Chris Paul this summer! They can offer Gordon, Aminu, Bledsoe, and DJ for Chris Paul. Hornets get $7 million in cap savings and 4 promising players early in their ultra affordable rookie contracts.
Another trade option is to offer Kaman, Aminu, Bledsoe, Rhino expiring contract, and Twolves 1st round pick for Chris Paul and Okafor’s long term deals. Hornets save $7 million this year, and $11 million next year while adding 2 prospects and an all star center.
What should the Clippers do? Rent Tmac for 1 year and build a young team with cap space, or trade it all to put Blake Griffin and Chris Paul on the same team?
by ClippsFanSince91 on Jul 21, 2010 9:10 PM PDT reply actions
What do we have to offer NO?
I guess we could trade Baron and someone else but would they take that? They would probably also want us to take Okafor of their hands as well.
"baron doesn’t need electricity, he generates power from the BEARD"
Worlock
Read my post! It says what the two offer options are!
The Hornets are not going to want Baron. The Clippers would need to offer the Hornets lots of young prospects, offer the Hornets $8 million in annual cap relief by taking back more salary than they give, and maybe include Twolves unprotected 2012 pick.
I still like the simple trade of Aminu, Bledsoe, Deandre Jordan, and Twolves 1st round pick for Chris Paul. Hornets get 4 prospects and save $8 million/year.
Clippers lineup:
Paul – Baron
Gordon – Foye
Gomes – veteran min player
Griffin – Cook
Kaman – veteran min player
Then Clippers try and trade Baron for Curry who plays backup C. Then next offseason you land a megastar because you already have in place: 3 ALL STARS: Chris Paul, Blake Griffin, and Chris Kaman and cap space!!
by ClippsFanSince91 on Jul 21, 2010 9:46 PM PDT reply actions
it seems obvious
that the powers that be have done the bare minimum- they will field a team, and that’s all
Clippers Season Outlook
check out our outlook on the Clippers for next season http://pardonmybias.com/a-tale-of-two-teams/
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