SB Nation Los Angeles Editor's Pick
Getting off of Tilt. Clippers aren't in such a bad state after all.
by Newton Pham on Jul 26, 2010 11:37 AM PDT
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PrintBefore going into this free agency, we knew the LeBron sweepstakes was highly unlikely, nearly impossible. We reminded ourselves of that before going in. As it got closer and closer, our hopes started getting higher and higher.
Only to be crushed when the cards did not fall in our favor. Reality was, the cards were never in our favor and LeBron went to Miami. We knew this all along, but our hopes were so high....
...it sent us into tilt.
Pretty soon, irrationality took us over. We wanted something...anything. Rudy Gay, Josh Childress, Joe Johnson...TMAC!...anybody!
I'm settling down now....taking a look at this team...it isn't so bad.
Sure, we have a soft spot at SF, but most teams do...who is the center for the Spurs? OKC? Who is the SF for Orlando? Not exactly big names or big games for that matter....
Before the LeBron sweepstakes what were we talking about?...ohhh that's right, "if only the Clippers had a glue guy, someone who could keep the offense flowing, defend and do all the intangibles..."
If (and a very big if) Blake Griffin pans out, this is one of the most solid teams in Clipper history (on paper). Most of the historic Clipper teams were half filled with fringe NBA players, this team (with the exception of Cook) are solid players.
Clips have a former all-star PG, up and coming SG, glue SF, potentional ROY PF, All star center. Seriously, this isn't that bad.....
PG: Baron Davis, Randy Foye, Eric Bledsoe
Baron Davis, former all-star, old but not too old. Definitely lost a step, but still a top point guard if he learns to limit his bad shots. Randy Foye is young, solid and still has potential for upside (but even as he is today, not a bad option off the bench). Eric Bledsoe is a turnover machine, but still looked promising.
SG: Eric Gordon, Sool, Foye
Eric Gordon was pretty flat and showed little development over the previous year. Good thing his previous year was pretty solid. I'm expecting him to break out of the sophomore slump this year and with more offensive firepower in Blake Griffin, this should help EJ get open.
SF (the glaring weak spot, but not really): Gomes, Sool, AFA
No clearcut starter here. One thing we as fans really wanted was a solid rebounding SF who had the tools to play tough D. I haven't seen Gomes play enough to factor in his defense, but I know he can be a solid role player and knock down shots when open. AFA has the tools for D and has proven to be a solid rebounder in college, which is said to translate very well to the NBA.
PF: Blake Griffin, Craig Smith, Cook, Gomes, AFA
Blake Griffin has to be the real deal if the Clippers plan to succeed. Everything hinges on this. If he is as billed, the Clippers are a strong team, if not it is a 20-30 win season.
C: Chris Kaman, DeAndre Jordan, Cook
Chris Kaman is an All-Star. DJ looked like he regressed in SL and I hope that changes. Otherwise there will be some depth issues.
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Agree with this.
Too much gloom and doom here. Can we credit the Front Office (gag, even ownership) for not copping out and bringing in T-Mac? That’s the second year in a row The Donald has avoided typical Clipper fashion by signing players who are shadows of their former selves (A.I. anyone)?
Gomes and Foye are routinely looked at as bargain basement rejects, but I am MORE than pleased with these signings. Both guys can play multiple positions, are character guys, and have experience starting or subbing.
SF remains a weakness, but our best lineups always featured Sool at the 3. I remember the home game against the Cavaliers where he and EJ hit EVERYTHING. That certainly won’t happen every game, but the potential is there.
The position was also a problem because Sool was backed up all year by Thornton and then Outlaw, two clones who neither rebounded nor passed. Gomes can grab boards AND is a better shooter from deep than either of them.
I understand everyone’s awareness/skepticism/fear of Blake failing, but I think we’re all just being too worried. But who can blame us? My predication Blake makes everyone remember why he was drafted first and mops the floor with Wall for ROY.
I’m ready.
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on Jul 26, 2010 11:49 AM PDT reply actions
Not Really
We can’t credit the FO for not bringing in TMac because there’s a very good chance TMac isn’t here because he doesn’t want to be. That certainly isn’t something that should reflect positively on the organization.
At any rate, giving the FO credit for not bringing in players is setting the bar awfully low. Inactivity is not a virtue unless it’s assumed that activity will be counterproductive. The only hope left would be random luck. If that describes our team, then the future is bleak.
Nonsense, just because you have cap space doesn't mean you have to immediately use it.
Ask Joe Dumars.
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on Jul 26, 2010 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Didn't say you have to use it
I said the FO does not deserve credit for not signing TMac (or any other player they didn’t sign. With all apologies to Zhiv, I’m not buying that doing as little as possible is a good thing for a team coming off three terrible season in a row. I’m not passing out credit for simply not doing something bad.
If the FO finds ways to improve the team later, then that will deserve praise. But so far they’ve not done much more than the bare minimum to field a team.
Wow
To put Josh Childress in with Rudy Gay and Joe Johnson…that’s the irrationality I’m seeing here.
PG The Clippers have a marginally above average PG with a below average combo guard as his backup. If Baron shows more age (and doesn’t continue his abnormally torrent FT%) the Clippers are in trouble at this spot. Their primary backup has spent a career being well below average. Bledsoe’s college numbers suggested that he would struggle as a pro and nothing about Summer League diminished that.
SG Gordon was below average as a SG last season. He is young enough to show growth, but he has to to get to average and he has a long way to go to get there. It is not clear that he is better than his replacements, who are themselves not very good.
SF There is still not a single 3 on the roster despite all the talk about 2’s posing as 3’s. AFA’s Summer League performance confirmed what his college numbers suggested. He can rebound but he can’t shoot. Its unclear what this means for his position in the NBA. His rebounding is solid enough to play the 4, but if he is a 4 that means his FG% is an even larger disaster. Gomes’ most productive days are as a 4. Butler was a disaster as a 3 last season but may return to form some and be only well below average.
PF The 4 may be the Clippers’ best spot. It is possible that Griffin will surpass the production of Smith in his first season, but I wouldn’t call it a lock since he has now missed a full season. Still, Griffin projects out very strongly and Smith is a solid backup.
C Kaman had a down season last year except for the golden PPG leading to his all-star bid. If he continues his up-year-down-year trend and is able to leverage the rebounds left behind by the departed Camby he should be able to return to above average status. Jordan has spent his first two years hovering around average. The frontcourt continues to be in good shape overall, but upgrades were likely possible.
If I told you on the day that the pipes burst in Memphis that the haul for the Summer of 2010 was going to be Ryan Gomes, Randy Foye and Brian Cook, you would be very angry. And rightfully so. The only thing that has changed since then is some have managed to talk themselves into it by focusing on the fact that they avoided the very worst mistakes (yay for not being completely incompetent and the fact that those two guys stayed with their teams so the Clippers weren’t in play anyway?) and that they traded for an extra rookie which Clippers fans love (to have as an excuse for why they aren’t trying to win). THAT is the irrationality here.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
I stopped reading when you said Gordon was "below" average.
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on Jul 26, 2010 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions
+ 1,000
EJ was def above average when playing last season.
by Newton Pham on Jul 26, 2010 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions
EJ wasn't right with his body
I think he got hurt and wasn’t the same because of it and i don’t think he wasn’t fully
healed.
I agree with John R
everyone knows the stats are on his side of the argument. Proof is proof. “Eye test” is not a real form of proof.
You guys have to admit this is more of a case of people drinking the “homerade” opposed to John R drinking the “haterade.”
You guys have no proof to falsify John R’s comments.
homerade is more tasty though
some have ordered the biggest gulp version.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Gordons numbers weren't down except for...
his free throw percentage which was down from 86 to 74 % but he is not
a below average shooting guard only Kobe Bryant and O J Mayo had better
seasons than our Gordon so don’t mess with Eric if not we will all come
down on you.
Actually thats not true
More than Kobe (and Mayo probably had a equal year to EJ). EJ is at this point an average starting SG. He’s just 21 so he should get better but he lost a lot of momentum last year when he didn’t improve.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions
People keept equating a lack of improvement on EJ's part with regression.
I hate that. He didn’t get worse, he just didn’t get much better. Which for a Sophomore doesn’t amount to a hill of beans. EJ is an excellent 2-gaurd and knock down shooter. Despite being undersized, he’s still able to handle his own defenisvely against bigger 2’s.
Look at the sample size, though small, in which he sequentially guarded Kobe, Roy, and Wade. Nuff said. EJ is the future at the 2, and half the league would gladly swap their starting SG with ours.
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on Jul 26, 2010 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Doesn't that make him a average SG then?
If half the teams would swap their SG?
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually it implies that he's above average.
means that he would be better than half of the shooting guards in the league
At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.
If he's in the 12-18 range
that makes him average.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Wow.
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on Jul 26, 2010 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions
His stats are based on WOW
which as we’ve established time and time again is fatally flawed.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
"we’ve established time and time again is fatally flawed."
Is that the Royal We, or the Editorial We?
Because I don’t remember ClipsNation establishing anything of the sort.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Jax
has declared himself ruler of the optimists. You don’t need any stats or facts to back up any of it. If you wish it were so it will happen.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions
All I know
is that I never got to vote on whether or not WOW was flawed.
Musta been busy that day.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Jax had a party at his house that day
sadly, no one went so he cast the only vote.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 5:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Could've been
He was battling injuries and played quite a few games where he shouldn’t have been out there. Struggled from the FT line, and remember Kobe & D Wade are listed as SG’s, so if this is based on the mean of some computer data it could technically be true.
But I think most of us feel pretty confident that given average health, there wont be 10 more effective SG’s than EJ this year. There may not be 5.
Well, your moniker is Gordon for President
which frankly, ain’t such a bad idea. I mean, he really couldn’t do any worse.
If only he were old enough.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
As we have seen
speeches alone don’t get it done. It takes more than meaningless speeches.
It’s all about action, and EJ is a man of action.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
are you sure?
so far Barry is getting away with just speeches
Getting away is right
but things are not getting any better. Speeches, speeches, speeches.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
+1
Can’t believe I’ve swung fully over to the Jax side, but John R has become an insufferable, um, vinegar-based feminine hygiene product.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
I take no sides...
But Gordon sure as hell isn’t below average. Regardless of whether you take into account his age, he’s one of the best defenders at the position, and he’s got the rare ability to both attack the basket and make the outside shot. If we had 5 starters who were all at EJ’s talent level, we wouldn’t be anywhere close to below average.
Of course, I’m sure there’s some statistic that makes Gordon below average, but that’s likely due to the position being filled with outliers like Joe Johnson, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Brandon Roy, and of course, Ricky Davis.
You guys aren't agreeing with Jax
as much as you guys are just being optimistic which is a predominant trait in a Clippers fan. You’ll realize that none of this is based on any basketball analysis as much as hope. More power to you, it takes a deep reservoir of optimism to tolerate the Clippers futility year in year out.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Ok Mr. "doom and gloom"
Feel free to buy Laker season tix this year
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
I rather carpool with you
to San Francisco than go to a Lakers game. I’m actually a very optimistic person but to call this off-season a success is the definition of a homer.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions
i think we can safely say that
I’m not a homer.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Jul 26, 2010 2:20 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Oh you are the king of homers
You’ve put a positive spin on every move and have nothing to support the spin. I’m simply calling it like I see it.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Yep, that's me - Clipper homer
LOL
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
You're assuming a lot...
I think Gordon is definitely an above average SG. My opinion isn’t based on hope. It’s based on watching him play in the NBA for the past two years. You may have a different opinion than myself & others, but I don’t think it’s fair or rational to assume so much about how someone arrives at there opinion.
At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.
EJ is not an above average SG
unless you are literally taking Shooting Guard as that… then yes he is an above average “shooting” guard. The rest of his offensive game (passing, offensive rebounding, ball handling, play-making) is sub-par. I like EJ but some are already valuing him based on where he’ll be in 2-3 years to where he is presently.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions
There aren’t a ton of above average ball-handling and play-making SG’s in the NBA, excess for your top flight guys. OJ Mayo came into the league with the rep that he could slide into the 1, but he just played in the summer league so that he could get reps at PG. He failed again in summer league and everybody (perhaps even Mayo by now) acknowledges that he’s not a playmaker.
There is a reason they are called shooting guards. I’m not hanging my hat on the name, but at least EJ is a strong shooter. I also like his defense. We can all agree he needs to improve his rebounding and handles and I fully expect he will.
by Michael White on Jul 26, 2010 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions
All around
where do you rank him among the league SGs?
Kobe, Wade, Roy, Joe Johnson, Stephen Jackson, Iguodala, Vince Carter and Ginobili are ahead of him right?
He’s in the John Salmons, OJ Mayo, Jamal Crawford, Jason Richardson fondue of mediocrity as of today right?
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions
As of now, I think he is a near perfect comp to OJ Mayo. Both have upside, both have weaknesses.
by Michael White on Jul 26, 2010 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Where does that put him
in the 12-18 range right? Pretty sure that’s a average shooting guard.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions
And yet you're defending this statement
John R.: Gordon was below average as a SG last season. He is young enough to show growth, but he has to to get to average and he has a long way to go to get there.
So which is it? Is he a [sic] average shooting guard, or a below-average shooting guard who has a long way to go to get to average?
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
he was a below average sg last season
according to statistical analysis
try again
So what ARE these stats?
Have seen you say it’s based on statistical analysis but haven’t seen you provide it. Nor have I seen you defend whether the analysis itself is or isn’t flawed.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
whether you believe it is flawed or not is another discussion
how about this:
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/sg
as you can see EJ is ranked 25th among SGs in PER
if you take out qualified players that played less than 25mpg, EJ is still ranked 20th
He is ranked 20th in estimated wins added (EWA).
Everything mentioned is below average.
And Mayo is 23! I was right about them being perfect comps for one another.
Seriously though, that’s not good for EJ and needs to be improved upon. Easiest way to improve PER is to rebound the basketball.
by Michael White on Jul 26, 2010 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions
And PS, I was talking to Chuck
How could I be wrong and need to “try again” when I made no statement of fact but merely asked Chuck a question?
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
I've said he was average SG
he’s certainly nothing special yet. He has time on his size but there’s no guarantee he gets much better.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions
I love the idea of the world being with me or against me
I couldn’t make myself this important if I wanted to be.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
To be fair, this did start by you mocking the other posters (notably the author of the fanpost) by calling them irrational. I did say below that while I get your points, I think you are intentionally provacative in order to sell your point. I don’t think you are as slavish to WoW or that “coaches don’t matter” as you let on.
by Michael White on Jul 26, 2010 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Aren't we all irrational
I mean we actually spend time and money following a team that has had 2 winning seasons in the past 25 years. The team has lower than a 35% winning percentage in Los Angeles. That’s just irrational!
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Well
Irrational first appears in the original fanpost. Seems like a fair literary flair.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Right - like saying that your opinions
about Kevin Durant being “average” are nonsensical – literary flair . . .
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
On EJ being a below average starting SG?
then yes, I think he’s average. Its not quite a dramatic as health care reform, tax cuts or the war in Afghanistan though.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Eh
I’m defending it? I would be putting EJ in the bottom half, instead I’m putting him in the middle. I think EJ is solid, he’s not going to carry the team to the playoffs but he can pitch in.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, you were defending it
This thread began with John R. calling EJ “below average,” many of us disagreeing, and you leaping to his defense.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
If that is all you took from that comment
You missed a heck of a lot.
Closed minds are bad.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
That's all CC does - get used to it
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
You are such a moron
I didn’t agree with John R on his EJ assessment. Honestly I have about 30 comments in this thread saying EJ is average.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Wow, that's big of you
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Thanks
Geesh, at least get your facts right.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Well
Here’s a list from the mid-point of last season to start the discussion. Note that while many of those players may play multiple positions for their team, their position will be chosen by the position they played the most.
Now I am not talking about contract situation, age, anything else. Just ranking SG’s from last season.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Not really much of a lover of WOW
but to be honest I’ve never really dug to deep. Is there a link on their page that explains the process of creating the WOW stats?
At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.
WOW is fatally flawed
as many including Steve have indicated. It’s a tool but it’s misinterpreted and misused.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Yeah, I don't love it, as I stated above.
But figured I would do a little more research
At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.
As you said below
he’s below average and a specialist. He specialized in a certain area, which some teams needed. Put into a different team and Bruce Bowen and Thabo would be in a whole different ball game.
I was being sarcastic
:)
I think Thabo is good for OKC because they already have so many options on offense but would be a disaster on teams without playmakers.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Deep reservoir indeed
Been tolerating the futility since before you were born. But there’s nothing “optimistic” about disagreeing with the conclusion that EJ is “below average,” as John R put it. Nobody “below average” was invited to tryout for the national team.
It’s fine to make rational arguments backed by statistics, but there’s no rational use of statistics that can support an argument that Eric Gordon is not an above average NBA player. John R has moved beyond logic to the point where he’s now doing what he always accuses Jax of doing, which is arguing just to argue. He could’ve made the same argument without going to the absurd extreme of calling Gordon “below average.” That’s not healthy debate; that’s just being a d-bag.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Plenty of people below average have been invited to try out for the national team
Its why the national team hasn’t always won.
If the national team always had above average players, they would never lose.
The mindset of “Yay points!” still persists even in 2010.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Right there too
Bruce Bowen comes to mind. Heck JaVale McGee was invited, he hasn’t even been a consistent starter for his team yet.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Bruce Bowen was below average?
Nice try. He might have been below average offensively, but was the best defender in the league. I know you’ve now sworn allegiance to John R. Massengill IV, but you can’t possibly believe the stuff you’re now saying, can you?
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Sure do
Bruce Bowen was a average to below average individual player. He was a situational/specialist on a elite team like Derek Fisher is on the Lakers. He was also 36 when he was trying out for the team and out of the league a year later.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions
What was that?
Sorry, couldn’t hear you with your nose planted in JR’s crack. But Bowen was named 1st or 2nd team all-defense 8 times, so I’m certain nobody interested in arguing rationally would say that he was a [sic] average to below average individual player.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Ha
actually I disagree with John R on a lot of things (WoW and coaching for starters). He’s right on his analysis except for EJ being a below average starting SG.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Really? It's hard to see that
with the ten thousand sycophantic follow ups
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
LOL
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Massengill says what?
No interest in your flawed logic. Was talking about you, not to you, because I have no interest in talking to you.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
+1
it is absolutely flawed logic and he is very hypocritical. arguing just to argure: exactly what he is doing. Why come to a clipper blog and shoot down every single thread with pessimism? If you don’t like it, don’t post here! He is just a troll instigating flame posts.
You sure know a lot about fem hygene products
To what can we attribute your level of expertise?
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Having to deal with a lot of douchebags
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
I think you need to put your foot down with the Mrs.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Give this guy a break
he’s obviously upset that the Chargers lost LT. JETS JETS JETS
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Chargers and Clippers?
Damn, you’re double cursed.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Right or wrong
The team with the most points wins the game?
by Michael White on Jul 26, 2010 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions
I do get the point, I really do, but it seems like you are going overboard to show that others go overboard liking guys who can put the ball in the hole. Putting the ball in the basket is still the single best thing one can do to help their team win the game.
by Michael White on Jul 26, 2010 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions
I won't argue that an efficient scorer is extremely valuable
But someone else has to stop the other team from scoring, get the ball back, and then get the ball into position to be scored efficiently.
If you are good at one and bad at the other 3, you aren’t really good at all.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
If we’re still talking about EJ, I don’t consider him to be bad at the other 3. He’s a solid defender IMO.
He is a subpar rebounder and poor playmaker. I expect he will get much better at the latter (good vision, proper insticts, just needs to execute a lot better.) I’m not quite as hopeful on the former.
by Michael White on Jul 26, 2010 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Timeframe
seems like it would be a gradual process for EJ to become a play maker. The clock is ticking on these guys, we suck a couple of years and EJ can leave via free agency. If we waste the first 3 years of his career it becomes less likely we retain him right?
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Not really. Clips will match offers for him, so I don’t see him going anywhere for the foreseeable future.
by Michael White on Jul 26, 2010 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Will they?
I think its 50/50 on that.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions
If you are making a “Clippers are cheap” argument, then whether they suck for 3 years or not is irrelevant. EJ has no choice in the matter. Either the Clips match the offer sheet, or they don’t. EJ being salty about the fact that the team has sucked doesn’t matter in this instance.
by Michael White on Jul 26, 2010 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually
not sure if the pending lockout etc effects contracts but EJ could just take the qualifying off in 2012/2013 and be a unrestricted free agent in the summer of 2013. If we are still sad-sack losers in 2 years then I think that’s the likely scenario.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions
It's impossible to tell
I’d say the way this league is, barring a huge change in the CBA in favor of free agency (which is highly unlikely), the safe bet is that a player will stay with his team.
The number of players who refuse an extension, take the QO and leave, is small. You’re assuming that EJ will be so good that there will be a large FA market for him. But if he’s that good, presumably the team will pay to keep him.
It’s too hard to project that far anyway. So much can change. The team could draft/sign/trad for a stud SG between now and then and they may not even want EJ.
Which would render all this investment into EJ moot right?
I hope the team signs EJ to a extension next summer but we’ll see. The Clippers have never been proactive in retaining talent.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Never?
What about Brand? They were proactive there. They signed Kaman to an extension so clearly they were proactive with him.
Can’t say there were never proactive. Who have they let go that really hurt? I can’t think of too many players I was sad to see go.
The truth is that the team has struggled acquiring talent with bad drafts and not going hard after FA’s. I don’t really think retaining talent has been as big an issue. They’ve just rarely had talent worth keeping.
So
Will EJ be considered talent worth keeping?
What if someone offers him a contract starting at $10M?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
I feel that will be the case
can lock him up cheaper if they sign him to a longer deal before he becomes a RFA. If a guy like Wesley Matthews gets about 7 million per year, EJ is going to get 10.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Pfft
A below average SF just got a max deal.
This is the NBA. Where amazing happens.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
I find it funny that ClipperChuck spent a lot of time explaining how average EJ was but then claims how EJ is going to get 10
Maybe he meant that dumb GM’s will give him 10…or maybe he thought EJ the average is worth 10?
Bad players get big paydays all the time in the NBA
You can anticipate a bidding way for just about anyone coming off a rookie contract that got a bulk of the minutes.
I wouldn’t support the Clippers matching a $10M max years deal if EJ was offered one today, but that doesn’t mean it won’t happen.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
EJ deserves 6-8 million a year
but I cannot predict how the market will treat him though. It depends on how many teams need a SG in 2-3 years, which teams, the Clippers roster etc.
He’s actually underpaid right now because of the rookie scale deal. Any time you can get a decent starter for below the MLE then you are getting a good deal.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions
wait, you can't predict now? didn't you just say he's going to get 10? ok, whatever.
It’s probably best to suspend speculation on this until we all see how he improves this season.
If he improves
let’s not chalk it up just yet. I thought it was a sure thing last year as well. We know how that turned out.
I was guessing he’d fetch 10 million if he was a FA today but that all changes if the salary cap is lowered or there is a hard cap or they remove the luxury tax. Too many variables. But yes, if he was a URFA today I would predict he’d make 10 million a year.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 5:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Impossible to predict
First of all, it’s a virtual lock that there will be a new CBA in place which will have a substantial impact on salaries.
Second, while his agent will definitely repeat what you said about Matthews, the Clips will undoubtedly reference other much more reasonable salaries (JChill?). Who knows how it pans out. And if EJ is worth $10 mil b/c he’s that good by then…well then maybe they pay him.
Heck, Memphis just gave Rudy Gay a ton of cash…so the Clips may as well. It’s so far away…so much will happen between now and then.
So...
we need EJ’s contract to outlast DTS? Hmm.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 5:09 PM PDT up reply actions
That is true
but if you sign guys before they hit the market they are usually cheaper. There were players worth keeping though, Odom and Miller were valuable players. At least use them in sign and trades. They often let these players go without getting anything for them. Heck, Brand wouldn’t have even reached free agency on most teams.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions
S&T for rookie deals is tough
Because of BYC rules.
Gotta sign them or set them free mostly.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Should've sign him
Considering the Heat got Shaq for Odom and Butler, you’d think the Clippers with Miller and Odom had a chance. Either way you let young gifted assets like them go for nada and you end up worse off.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions
You have to start with scorers
Otherwise you will lose.
See Q Ross
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
+1
Also stopping the ball from going in the basket, which Gordon is also good at, but which is also being conveniently ignored by the EJ-sucks crowd.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
no it's not
check the stats, I am sure you haven’t.
If I have a moment I will throw up a fanpost analyzing EJ from last year
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
I'll be glad to inform you MW
these defensive stats taken from http://www.82games.com/0910/09LAC6.HTM#bypos
20.6 – 5.7 – 4.9 is the line that EJ allowed to opposing SGs
All this while allowing a eFG% of .504
He is ranked 18th in steals per game for players who got more than 25mpg among SGs
http://www.hoopdata.com/defrebstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=SG&yr=2010&gp=0&mins=25
He is ranked 3rd to last in DRR in players who played more than 25mpg among SGs
http://www.hoopdata.com/defrebstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=SG&yr=2010&gp=0&mins=25
He is ranked 30th in blocks per game in players who played more than 25mpg among SGs
He is ranked 25th in charges drawn in players who played more than 25mpg among SGs
http://www.hoopdata.com/defrebstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=SG&yr=2010&gp=0&mins=25
and finally he is ranked 21st in total defensive plays created in players who played more than 25mpg among SGs
http://www.hoopdata.com/defrebstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=SG&yr=2010&gp=0&mins=25
Now everyone is educated
no he was asking for specifics
I provided them
Everyone else hasn’t provided anything.
I back up what John R is saying because I have seen the statistical analysis.
Those that are disagreeing with him are hedging their bets on potential and the eye test
That I can agree with
I think EJ is an average SG as of today. He’s much more likely to move up than down barring injury (knock on wood). This is likely his floor, the question is if his ceiling is appreciably higher than what we’ve seen.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions
right
With a better coach and system and surrounding players. And maturity. Which is why your doom and gloom analysis is not reasonable. Again, the Lakers await you.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Jul 26, 2010 2:23 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Hey Stupid
stop claiming a coach and system we haven’t seen is better. Last I checked MDSr’s crappy system took a team to the Finals and WCF and even took the Clippers to the Semi-Finals.
There’s no guarantee EJ will get much better, just hope. We thought he would be better his sophomore year right? How did that work out for us?
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Ah - now we're getting personal - I've struck a nerve
I’ll take that as an admission.
Keep defending MDSr. A little push and the truth comes out. LOL
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
You always strike a nerve
as does John R…and you guys repeatedly strike each others’ nerves…thus striking all our collective nerves.
by madglove on Jul 26, 2010 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
LOL
Ouch!
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
I think you would be guilty of the same thing
But hey, we’re all Clipper fans
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
I'm not
apparently I’m a Clippers fan right? Idiot.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Bleh
guess i’m the idiot, meant to say Lakers fan.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions
My god you are stupid
I think MDSr deserved to be fired, I was for it the entire time. That doesn’t mean VDN is a upgrade. Whether you drive a broken honda or a broken toyota and it doesn’t matter, both are broken cars. You pretend that VDN is some proven coach, well he’s not. Most analysts point out he is still a unprepared head coach who can put together a nice presentation and interviews well. His knowledge of coaching is still underwhelming but pretty much everyone’s estimates.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Keep the insults coming
They just show that you’ve got nothing to say.
Let me ask you some basketball questions -
Why is it do you think that the team fired MDSr?
What can a new coach and new system bring that would be different than the old coach and system?
What do you think was happening last year that resulted in MDSr getting fired?
Why did the FO tell us all that the team wasn’t going anywhere with MSDr?
Did you actually watch the team not perform with MDSr?
Do you really think any of the players on the team actually respected MDSr and his coaching abilities?
Do you?
The point dear boy is that the team has been treading water for years. The coach sucked. He couldn’t put a team together well so he was a poor GM. He didn’t know how to do much except react to other teams’ moves. He had no creativity.
This year we have a chance to move forward. The existing team was pretty good but was underperforming. Now we have BG and some better quality backups.
Let’s just see what happens instead of reactively telling us why they didn’t do anything to make the team better. They are trying. Either get with the program or STFU until they have played 20 games. We’ve had enough of your chicken with the head cut off approach to all things Clippers.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Easy
Why is it do you think that the team fired MDSr?
Because they lost 59 and 63 games the previous two years. He should have been fired prior to the start of last season. The FO didn’t want to pay him to do nothing.
What can a new coach and new system bring that would be different than the old coach and system?
Depends, VDN isn’t a good head coach. The best you can find out there is “he’s not that bad”. Somehow I find that pretty uninspiring. The Poll done here on CN on who should be the head coach… was overwhelmingly in favor of Casey being head coach.
What do you think was happening last year that resulted in MDSr getting fired?
Enough paying fans were vocal about it. Kim Hughes got a huge ovation in the first game post MDSr. Money talks.
Why did the FO tell us all that the team wasn’t going anywhere with MSDr?
Because they want to sell change. They know the fan base are optimists by nature (we must be right?). What, they fire a guy and say oops that was a mistake (ironic I suppose if you think of Kim Hughes)
Did you actually watch the team not perform with MDSr?
I saw this team lose in every fashion possible. I didn’t even know acts of god (or fault plumbing) was possible but the Clips found a way.
Do you really think any of the players on the team actually respected MDSr and his coaching abilities?
I do, he was a respected head coach in the NBA by both players and colleagues. Did the team tune him out? Yes.
Do you?
I think he was a solid coach but lost his team over the past few years. It happens to pretty much every coach unless you win. He’s not the worst coach ever but he’s not a great coach either.
The point dear boy is that the team has been treading water for years. The coach sucked. He couldn’t put a team together well so he was a poor GM. He didn’t know how to do much except react to other teams’ moves. He had no creativity.
This year we have a chance to move forward. The existing team was pretty good but was underperforming. Now we have BG and some better quality backups.
Let’s just see what happens instead of reactively telling us why they didn’t do anything to make the team better. They are trying. Either get with the program or STFU until they have played 20 games. We’ve had enough of your chicken with the head cut off approach to all things Clippers.
Why don’t you STFU about things you clearly don’t understand. The team was flush with cash with ONE glaring weakness. Get a credible starting SF and they have failed in this one simple task.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions
what is your lowly expectation of this team again?
how futile will this year be according to your know-it-all-purely-objective-brilliant-but-off-putting mind?
32 wins
Slightly better than last year with BG. Nowhere near a playoff team with that huge hole we have at the 3.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions
not really
the team actually had a better roster last year before BG got hurt. I thought the team could win 42 games last year in pre-season.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Plus, he's young and improving
And if he’s put in an appropriate system, the sky’s the limit (within reason).
Adding BG certainly can’t hurt either.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
JChill grouped with them wasn't meant to be a comparison in skill level....
It was just a statement that I was desperate for a signing and anyone who had a name at the SF spot would have sufficed….hence running on Tilt.
However looking at it, without these signings…I feel that the team is in a good position both for now and for the future.
by Newton Pham on Jul 26, 2010 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Perspective at the Time
Agree that our ‘last year mindset’ would be appalled at the Clippers’ 2010 FA signings; but we would be equally appalled at what some of the average to below average FAs obtained on the free market. I’m hard-pressed to criticize the FO for not joining in the insanity, yet some how I find a way. Just the Clipper way.
Just curious, if instead of Gomes, we signed for Josh Childress but everything else were equal
Would you still be bashing the team?
If not, what sets of moves (other than Lebron) would you have needed to see in order to appease you and genuinely get you “on board”. I just find it mystifying at how critical some of us have been when there aren’t many clear cut moves that can be significantly better than what already transpired.
And no, please don’t start with, we should have resigned Steve Blake – that guy was never coming back.
Childress would have been very nice
But there should have been literally dozens of options.
Instead they signed Gomes, Foye and Cook on pretty much the first day of free agency. Since then, many better players have gone for very fair salaries. This indicates to me they never seriously considered anything else.
All someone has to do is explain Brian Cook to me and you might have a chance of changing my mind.
Why Brian Cook? That’s not a basketball move.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
There's no defense for Brian Cook
Steve Novak has a better chance of defending a prime Shaq in the post.
To sign him is one thing… but the 2nd year? My guess is him and Olshey were part of a devil’s 3 way.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions
CC the master of inconsequential opinions about irrelevant issues
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Nah
I’ve been studying your technique for years. No one is more irrelevant than you.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions
dozens? sorry, even if Childress was the man...I can't think of dozens that are clearly better choices than what we've got
I’ll give you Mike Miller? And then some trade possibilities…Prince? Iggy? What am I missing?
If Brian Cook plays significant minutes, then yes, this FO needs to pay dearly.
Noone needs to pay, and it doesn't matter if Cook plays
Why Brian Cook?
Why sign these players on the first day?
Answer these questions for me. I have listed plenty of options through the threads here and am frankly tired of repeating myself. I had listed options before last season even ended.
Why Brian Cook?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
That's not a particularly poignant question
Cook is a complete head scratcher. He’s also our 12th man (if that). Answering why or why not still leaves us with the top 11 guys to sort through and organize. So I’m simply not interested in the answer, even if it is woefully unsatisfying.
I’m with banandy in a narrow sense, that there weren’t THAT many free agents in play, at least not ones who were (1) of high quality, (2) reasonably priced, and (3) truly available to us. If you’d be good enough to provide us with your list (again?), then we might go through them and see who really qualifies as a missed opportunity. Meanwhile, there’s still a chance we might trade for someone, on your list or otherwise.
If you’re inclined to focus on a single player who illustrates our off season, then I would suggest Josh Childress. Why didn’t we sign him? If the answer is that we didn’t put our best foot forward, then I will join your ranks and hurl stones at the FO. If the answer is that his case was similar to Mike Miller’s, in that the deciding factors were really out of our control, then I’ll be lining up against you. It’s not so much who the FO has signed as where its head is at. The fact that we signed Gomes and Foye (and Cook) right away really doesn’t give us any great insight here, I’m afraid.
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
Brian Cook answers everything
Why Brian Cook tells us where the FO’s head is at.
It is all insight. Everything. This is why I am not interested in what they have to say. People lie, spin, etc. But what they did is what they did.
Why Foye, Gomes and Cook on the very first day of free agency? Why? And why for $4M?
Fill in the pieces now in retrospect: If they didn’t sign them at $4M each maybe they don’t make minimum salary. Did they choose those guys for the basketball talent or did they choose them because they could get them at the salary and terms they wanted, talent be damned?
The answers are all there if you will look at the why’s coldly and rationally and not wait to be told what you want to hear.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
I see what you're saying
and at this moment, I’m not arguing. If you’re right, then the Clips are seriously cheap bastards and really don’t warrant our fan-ship. Are you yourself so convinced? And if so, then do you intend to stick around? I don’t see why you (or anyone) would.
This situation is a little like looking at the surface topography and trying to figure out the tectonic forces underneath. I’m looking at the same contours as you, and I’m thinking, “Maybe the FO really needs EJ and Griffin to show their stuff this year, in order to have better leverage in free agency.” In other words, I’m not so sure the FO is all that you describe. The facts don’t point to a completely unique explanation. But maybe you’ve seen enough and are convinced regardless.
One fact that I’m not clear on: How common is it to sign and trade mid-level players? David Lee got a whole lot of $ from his NY deal. Did Blake, Outlaw, and Gooden have similar reason to cooperate with us? A sign and trade might have limited their negotiating options, it seems to me.
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
Only Blake would be a sign and trade option
We probably could have gotten back Sasha and a draft pick for instance. Gooden and Outlaw went to teams for the full MLE I think (Outlaw was above it actually but the Nets had cap space) so they didn’t need our help to make a deal work. J Chill for instance was a sign and trade just so the Hawks wouldn’t match a deal. Obviously it wasn’t much of a concern for the Suns as the Hawks settled for just a 2nd round pick.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Thanks!
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
LOL - Novak, Cook - that's the key
to winning or losing. The 14th man syndrome.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Dumb signing
in the sense it ate into cap room. It was a clear sign the team wasn’t going to be using it all up (cap space) on desired free agents. A smart team uses up all its cap space AND then uses the minimum exception to sign guys like Cook.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions
So you'd be fine with Novak
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Nope
I’d be cool with the signing some meaningful players and then they can sign losers like Cook, Novak, etc to minimum contracts. Signing Cook ate 800k in cap room (the difference between the cap hold and the minimum contract).
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions
There's no difference between roster charges (minimum cap holds) and minimum contracts
The NBA pays the difference, so as not to prevent teams from signing veterans who have a higher minimum salary.
If you’re going to be so outspoken, at least know the facts.
Link please
Minimum Salary Exception: Teams can sign players for the NBA’s minimum salary even if they are over the cap, for up to two years in length. In the case of two-year contracts, the second-season salary is the minimum salary for that season. The contract may not contain a signing bonus. This exception also allows minimum-salary players to be acquired via trade. There is no limit to the number of players that can be signed or acquired using this exception.
No mention of the cap hold difference so how is the difference not factored into cap space? I’ll take your word for it but provide a link anyways.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 9:46 PM PDT up reply actions
You really love links don't you
“When a player has been in the NBA for three or more seasons…the league actually reimburses the team for part of his salary – any amount above the minimum salary level for a two-year veteran…Only the two-year minimum salary is included in the team salary, not the player’s full salary. They do this so teams won’t shy away from signing older veterans simply because they are more expensive when filling out their last few roster spots.”
So it turns out we were both wrong – the 2-year minimum salary is about $400k more than the rookie minimum/roster charge.
Since were dealing with something tangible
having a reputable source would wrap up the discussion. Not to mention its always nice to learn more about the cap room, its so complicated that teams have cap specialists for it.
Ok, so then main point of my concern is still there then right? Signing Cook ate into the teams overall cap space then right? Why not wait until after signing all the key free agents? Brian Cook has been available since February, were we worried someone would claim him first?
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Its not about Childress
Its about the fact that they had Kaman at a great price, $19M in cap space or something silly like $24M in players WHO WERE IN DEMAND that they could sign and trade.
All of those assets. All of it. Every option available under the CBA.
Butler and Smith come back with no-trade clauses and they add Gomes, Foye and Cook.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Rhino and Sool have no trade clauses?
I thought the only guy in the league with that was Kobe (and now Paul Pierce)
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions
They can’t be traded before December 15th is what I think he’s referring to.
by Michael White on Jul 26, 2010 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions
And that's standard, isn't it?
As long as we have them for deadline deals…
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
Thats different
Can package together a poo poo platter of expirings starting mid december them. Delicious.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions
No
Players on one year contracts that will have Bird rights get no trade clauses. If they are traded they lose their Bird rights.
Radmanovich was in this case when he came to the Clippers.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
So are we prohibited from trading them, or would it merely cause them an impolite inconvenience?
I have to go back and read the rules. There was something about being signed with a single team for 3 years, if I recall. Smith and Sool don’t meet that, so I’m probably missing something.
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
They can say no, its a full trade veto
Devean George did this to the Mavs a couple years back.
Your Bird rights go with you when you are traded. Smith and Butler were traded to the Clippers so they hold their Bird rights since they have not changed teams as free agents.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Ahh
will have to read up on this, I do remember the Devean George fiasco. They had to include Stackhouse in a trade or something right? I think it turned out to be meaningless as George never resigned with the Mavs and it ended up costing Cuban some cash due to cap rules.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions
At the time you said they were positive moves in terms of timing
I guess you’ve reconsidered because you can use the argument against the FO, or so you think.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Yep - they were ready and took them off the market
Which you at the time said was good. They will be good backups.
But hey, the Lakers didn’t get them so obviously Groucho they were bad moves.
it must be sad to have so little self confidence.
John R has criticized the FO more in this thread then he had in the 7 years of MDSr’s sub .400 performance.
And VDN hasn’t yet coached one game.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
This is a lie of course
“Anytime you can reunite the 2007-2009, 23 wins per season Timberwolves
And for only $8M per year, you have to do it.”
Liars gotta lie. Its hard to imagine me praising these signings when I said that on the day they were announced.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
That's not what I'm referring to
I’ll find it when I get more time.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Obviously you couldn't have been referring to that
No afternoon activities today? Got time to do the research?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
EJ?
you know it’s a slow day in clippernation when we have nothing to talk about other than “is EJ average?”
by zac4president on Jul 26, 2010 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions
I thought there was a lot more content than that
But that seems to be what has been locked on to.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Yeah, let's talk about how Brian Cook = Clipper downfall
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Agreed w/ Gordon
Fans only watch offense in NBA Eric Gordon is a flat out stud on defense and once he gets his ball hanling under control will only improve his offense……HE IS FAR OUR BEST PLAY until Blake proves otherwise.
Yup.
Those 16 points during the Blue/White game ain’t shabby either.
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on Jul 26, 2010 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions
+1
EJ has a 16.4 scoring average over his first two season, he is also one of only three players in the NBA with 250 or more made 3pt and 2000+ points in first two seasons.
Ray Allen...
hmm I guessed Mike Miller but he was short 69 points. Then I remembered OJ Mayo
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions
He'll have to play better off the ball
Ray Allen is one of the three best guards ever in running around picks (ok, at least the last 20 years) with Reggie Miller and Rip Hamilton.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions
trust me
I know who Ray Allen is and he may very well be Eric’s ceiling. Last year’s Clippers team had a lot of trouble when EJ was missing. Watching Ray Allen run around those picks is so much fun to watch.
The Clippers were .370 with Gordon
And .300 without him.
He doesn’t matter nearly as much as everyone wants to believe.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
He is very young and has a lot of upside
He is not good enough right now to change a bad team. Though he could prove me wrong. He was our best player last season, unfortunately that’s not saying much
Well I find your point to be circular
If the players on the court aren’t responsible for the quality of the team, who is?
I am not saying he is a bad player, just below average as a SG. If you find him only good enough to be the best player on a bad team, well maybe the team is bad because he isn’t very good.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
you're simply not understanding me
He’s a great SG on a below average team. At this point in his career he is not good enough to be the best player on a playoff team.
I’m not saying that he’s Kobe, just a great young SG. If you find him to be a bad player (below average is bad right?) well maybe we should be looking for a new starting SG right? thats basically your argument in a nutshell
Below average isn't bad.
If you noticed I used words like disaster for the players who are bad. Seems like you didn’t read the whole comment but felt compelled to comment on it?
But yes, I would have considered new starting SG’s.
Why isn’t the FO looking at options at every position?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
hah now i find your argument to be circular
I made no comments about your post(and yes I read it), I made a comment to someone else about EJ’s ceiling. You disagreed with me.
Why isn’t the FO looking at options at every position? For many reasons. As far as SG? EJ is the last guy we want to get rid of because he is a great young SG at a discount price.
I feel like we are going to have to agree to disagree.
He isn't below average
His scoring average of 16.9 is 6.8 points higher than the league average for guards.
When you think about how young EJ is and the circumstances that this team has endured over the last two seasons, he has been just what the Clippers have needed with the 7th pick in the 2008 NBA Draft.
I can’t think of anyone besides Brandon Roy that is a shooting guard that has been drafted in the past 5 years that I would take over EJ. He has also been the perfect replacement at the shooting guard spot since Mobley retired.
Points per game is essentially meaningless
Especially compared to every single guard.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Not to say they are meaningless
but your focusing heavily on ppg. Al Thornton averaged 17, apparently people wasn’t too fond of him. But me personall believe EJ is average.
Why would one take a per game metric and compare it to every single guard?
Some players will get 35 minutes, some will get 4.
It doesn’t mean anything if we are trying to find out who is where relative to average.
We need to look per minute to begin with.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Eric Gordon isn't the Clippers best player
But if he was the Clippers are in worse shape.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Agree with that
Baron and Kaman are both better players right now. BG better be too or this will be a painful season.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions
That is your oppinion I suppose
EJ was absolutely the Clippers best player last year.
see i can state my opinions as if they are facts too!
no you are wrong
they are using statistical analysis
try again
Good point
after February all the games were meaningless… unless you were that poor SOB who bought season tickets and had to watch it to justify the expense.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions
nope, just a fan of basketball
but I’m sure you had season tickets. Unless you were that poor SOB who hates his team yet continues to post his opinions on his teams blog.
I hate losing
but that can be handled if the effort is deal. The team’s effort in the 2nd half was deplorable.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions
All good
people are just being optimistic. I don’t intend to rain on their parade but really the team hasn’t done anything to generate any optimism this off-season. Apparently its better to be delusional.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 6:41 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm sadly on your ship on this one
I remember last year I was optimistic. Hell we all were. But I think I was one of those fresh blood optimistics. I supported Thornton. Believed EJ would progress in his sophmore season. Thought there would be a less controlling MDSR.
I be so wrong sometimes.
Clippers Outlook
The Clippers have made some nice moves, but I think they have stacked up too much with athletic slashers with potential. I like the base with Kaman, Gordon, and Davis, but the roster needs help still. A lot falls on Blake Griffin this year. Check out my complete outlook on the Clippers for the upcoming season http://pardonmybias.com/a-tale-of-two-teams/
Back from vacation...
first site i visit!? (after facebook, that is…)
the only thing i have to say is that I will be very disappointed if those are our SF players!…2 seasons without a solid 3 is unheard of!
Roger Sterling: To my knees, Don. They're bringing to my knees!"
Ummm, the Bulls haven't add a legitimate PF in nearly a decade.
From Brand to Boozer. Yikes!
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on Jul 26, 2010 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, not a bad team, but...
nothing really to get excited about. With all the crap that we have been listening to about the BIG 2010 FREE AGENCY, we get here and sign Gomes, Foye, and Cook. Nothing really special happened, so it’s kind of a downer, after waiting for this summer for like 3 years.
Just another summer of putting together a lottery team. I think it’s time to trade Kaman and Baron, because every year we say ‘we are set at Center and Point Guard’, then we go on to have another crappy season. We are going no where with those two, so it’s probably better to move on.
"look, you can find any coach you want, bring him in here and run the situation. But I don't think they are going to do as good a job as I do." -Mike Dunleavy Sr.
Stop worrying
I can’t believe everyone has some crazy idea that Lebron or any other top free agent was going to come here,unless we overpaid them. I personally don’t want anyone here in a Clippers uniform who doesn’t want to be here. Players like T-Mac, an aging injury prone allstar in this league, uses the Clippers to generate media buzz around his name in the hopes some other team becomes interested,that’s why for once the FO saw it for what it was worth, and moved on. This is the same team that was projected to be in the playoffs all last season, by several sports analyst,but was derailed by the injury to Blake Griffin,I honestly believe we’ve added a better bench than last year, and it appears that everyone here want to be here, this team isn’t going to be some super elite team just by adding a player, we have as much talent as any team in this league, success for this team is going to be accomplished with EFFORT, nothing more nothing less, in the 05-06 season where we made it to the second round of the western conference we definately did not have the most talented team in the league by any stretch of the imagination,but that was a team that hustled and believed in themselves and it took us a long way, if this team plays and hustles us to it talent, we can go a long way without the hypethical signing we keep talking about. the players on the team have as much responsibility as the FO, to work as a hard working unit and play up to their maximum potential,and with that we should be alright.
If Randy Foye is our primary back-up PG we are screwed
Foye should never touch the PG spot. We need Bledsoe to step in and hold his own.
your tripping.
Foye started in washington after Gilbert was suspended and he had amazing stats. He averaged 10pts 3.5 assts 2rbs and 1 3pt in 23 minutes. Thats not bad for a back up.
Our biggest problem is not finding a legitimate STARTER caliber SF. Ryan Gomes is definitely not that guy.
Right - Telfair would be better
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
You forgot about Warren
Warren looked great at summer league.
"baron doesn’t need electricity, he generates power from the BEARD"
Worlock
Excellent use of the you forgot poland meme
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Weird day of comments
Seems like almost everyone wants to fight right now.
As to the main post, I’ll say that it seems like Newtybar is trying to convince himself. Just last week you were despondent and complaining about this team. Now, a few days later with no change, you’re talking about this team not being bad? Is it really you getting “off tilt” or you wanting to convince yourself?
The reality is probably in between your two positions. I guess it depends on what you mean by the team being “not that bad.” I think it will be watchable and entertaining. I think the team will definitely be better than last year. But, as I’ve said repeatedly, this team right now is not a playoff team.
As for John R’s comments, it’s funny because it’s actually not a whole lot different from what Newtybar said. Just stronger use of negative rhetoric to get a rise out of people. You can’t really say that his points are way off. Nor are they absolutely right. But again…most of his comment, like most posts/comments, are his opinions. So who knows?
In the end, Clips fans shouldn’t be “satisfied” or “happy” with this off-season. Even Ralph, the ultimate homer and team cheerleader, has expressed a hope that this isn’t it (which implies his dissatisfaction with the moves so far). It certainly hasn’t been a good off-season. But it hasn’t been a miserable one. The team will be better with Blake. It’s just a matter of how much better.
What’s important is that this off-season is not a vacuum. In many ways, they punted by signing a bunch of short 1-2 year contracts. We’ll see what happens going forward.
this is a good assessment
Yes, I wish FO pulled some spectacular moves, but other than Lebron…I can’t even think of any missed opportunities that really matter. I can think of a bunch that could have mattered, but nothing so obvious to warrant the current level of haterade.
I do like that most of us are willing to (at least) claim reason and logic in the spirited discussion.
Getting off of Tilt
As to the main post, I’ll say that it seems like Newtybar is trying to convince himself. Just last week you were despondent and complaining about this team. Now, a few days later with no change, you’re talking about this team not being bad? Is it really you getting "off tilt" or you wanting to convince yourself?
If you ever played poker this is sort of how Tilt works. For the last few months I was hoping for a BIG change and instead we got a couple of tweaks here and there. I was upset that nothing was happening and irrationally trying to “force the action”…without thinking it through.
Now that everything is settled, I’m of a calmer mindset. In this more calm mindset, I see that it wasn’t as bad as I thought it to be.
Nay
you have to go with your initial read. I thought we had a crappy hand and I’m sticking with it. I guess we could suck out on the river but we aren’t the most fortunate bunch right? I’m still holding out on DTS dying within the next 3 years. Someone remind him this is the best year to die, his heirs will save the most in taxes!
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Whist I wish death on no one
this is a good time for the wealthy to die.
The death tax is coming back with a vengence.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
I normally don't wish death on anyone
but DTS has caused quite a bit of pain and suffering that goes beyond just the suffering Clipper fans (although this is where he has affected most of us).
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 26, 2010 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Unremarkable is the word
Certainly not bold or daring. Signed a couple of former T-Wolves. Nothing new.
Obviously a coach was needed. Candiate after candidate came off the board while the Clippers waited. Then they pounced. Of all of the retreads we could have hired as coach, we got the one that was most recently fired. Hey, I guess that’s better than a Van Gundy or Fratello type who have been out of coaching for ages.
But I’m not completely down on VDN. His firing seemed to be more political than anything. His tenure was one of streaks. Lots of losing and winning streaks. Never were the Bulls consistent, and yet, he went 41-41 both years, as consistent as can be. So go figure. Since he has only coached two years, it is impossible to make a solid judgement. He looked lost in the 2009 playoffs, and yet, his team took the defending champs (albeit, shorthanded champs) to seven games.
The GM situation is more interesting. The Clippers could have hired a new GM from the ranks of any of the league’s perennial contenders. And yet, they decided to go with their own backbencher. Another underwhelming move, but, since he has only been on the job for 5 months, I can’t draw any conclusions about how good or bad he is at his new job.
This is far from the best Clippers offseason, and far from the worst. It was unremarkable.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Well my post is titled
“it wasn’t so bad afterall”…
….doesn’t really imply great.
Stronger negative rhetoric?
Everyone got hooked on “below average.” A tamer criticism I cannot think of.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
I actually think it was the rhetoric you used throughout and your tone
People did get hooked on the criticism of EJ, but it was also due to your overall rhetoric and tone of your comment. It was generally negative and critical and when they read the part on EJ, they just jumped on it.
Hmmm, I think all of us can read and respond intelligently, but too many of the posts have been getting too nasty...I think that's getting in the way
I appreciate John R’s attempt to provide a fanpost outlining his rationale. I would hope that all of us can agree/disagree based on an idea’s merits/proofs, not because of whether someone is supporting it or not.
I'm too lazy to read all the comments, but I agree
fact of the matter is we should be at least as good at last year’s team that was playing .500 ball up until the water main incident….
I don’t like all the comparisons of our team from last year after the trade deadline, cause not only were we really bad, but we weren’t playing for anything. To compare from early last season, basically our best starting lineup last year was baron, ej, sual, camby, kaman.
The only thing that really changed is replaced camby with hopefully a health BG. At SF, worst case scenario, gomes and AFA don’t prove to be worth taking the starting position from Sual, and we end up with the same starting SF as last year….
we were playing .500 ball with almost the same starting lineup, and have added a lot more upside guys that will HOPEFULLY be all stars one day in BG, AFA, Bledsoe… It’s not the dramatic change we were looking for, but I’m still trying to be optimistic.
If the team were able to play at .500 ball...
it would be easier to sign up some 2011 free agents.
we are basically the same team we saw last summer
but we are quite a bit deeper it seems. I can’t wait to see how this season plays out
Yep
were you excited w/ the FO moves last season? I know I was. Well mostly for BG, but then to move randolph for sual, smith, and telfair was good moves. We still haven’t seen BG play, so I don’t get why this offseason is such a downer, while last season was filled with anticipation. I know we didn’t make a huge move like other teams, but like they always say: “Rome wasn’t built in a day”
I know its fun to argue...
…but nothing truly objective can be said about this group when our future success depends so heavily on someone who has never played an NBA game. I am personally in the ROY camp for griffin. He is a true competitor and may even set an example for Baron and Kaman, who have been known to play lazy from time to time (no one wants to be out-worked by the 20 year old rookie). I also believe that if I am right about griffin (that he can be an 18 and 8 player from day 1), other players will feed off that: Kaman will get better looks in the midrange, EJ will have better looks beyond the arc, and Baron will have less chances to hack up ill-advised shots.
Thats the idea anyway…
so true
The current coach and front office are quite secondary to how well Griffin plays. It all rides on the players.
But it helps for the team acquire good players.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
I agree with that too
Im not thrilled with all of the moves we made. One thing i do like is that the current team is even set up to be lead by griffin. When the time is right, Baron will be phased out. I dont think Bledsoe will be ready to take over for baron within the next 2 years, but maybe after that. Baron is a good PG in the meantime. If he is looking to set his team up and be a true PG, he will not disappoint. Some of my favorite plays from last year include a sick dime from baron (see cross court bounce pass to sool against lakers last year).
A problem with the forums is that some people want to measure our team against and average standard. Have we really even earned that right? We havent been an average team for quite some time.
Agree w Gordon 4 PRes
I elect U…
John R.. take a happy pill man seriously .. well you are
Admittedly realistic.. but too much so man.. your raining on my hope for the best /optimistic expectations for the upcoming season…. Sure…. If Blake Griffin doesn’t seriously perform than yes we are in seriously bad shape and i have no idea what to do may give up on them all…..
Yes BD is aging and has been inconsistent.. But when things are going well and he has all cylinders working around him.. hes a different player. (But I personally thank him for the tanking that year we ended up w the 1st overall pick for B Griffen!!! ) SOmetimes this team seem smart not to waste their time and energy if we are too far down in the standings something tells me however when things are good and they are on the verge everybody on this team will STEP UP FINE!!! I wouldn’t say that about a college team but anyway…
Unfortunately.. i see what some of the naysayers are saying about Eric Gordon but Im not ready to give up on him.. lets see what happens.. the guy can score bottom line!! to me however its his kiss of death if he joins the USA team.. He has too much to prove / get in order here in Clipperland before he jaunts off to this summer dream team BS F THAT ..
Unfortunately.. i see what some of the naysayers are saying about Eric Gordon but Im not ready to give up on him.. lets see what happens.. the guy can score bottom line!! to me however its his kiss of death if he joins the USA team.. He has too much to prove / get in order here in Clipperland before he jaunts off to this summer dream team BS F THAT ..GOrdon 4 PRes.. I agree w him alot about our Rookie Class IT ROCKS !!!
Speaking of PG.. I like TELAFAR.. Hes gonna get cut?
Bring him back
Why did he leave?
You all didnt like him ???
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