Paging John R. Re: Chris Kaman's 07-08 Rebounding Numbers
by boltsfan21 on Jul 29, 2010 10:22 AM PDT
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An open letter to John R.:
In the comments section of your recent FanPost about the below-average shooting guard who is somehow on the verge of faking his way onto our national team, you asserted that a player's teammates have no bearing on his stats (though you did at one point admit that this is an "unexpected result"). A number of us called you on this assertion. I made the point that Chris Kaman's rebounding numbers were considerably higher during the '07-'08 season, which was the year Brand shredded his Achilles' tendon and was thus the only year in Kaman's career in which he wasn't playing alongside a PF who ranked among the league's Top 10 rebounders -- the implication of this clearly being that, in a year in which his teammates were inferior rebounders, Kaman's rebounding numbers increased because there were more opportunities available to him.
Your response to this line of inquiry was to accuse me of being unclear in my point and using circular logic. When others came to my defense and attempted to get you to back up your position rather than simply attacking me, you at first attempted to argue around the periphery of the matter at hand, and then simply disappeared without providing a legitimate counter or even answering the very simple, straightforward question I put to you in an attempt to get you to quit dodging the issue, which I will again put to you here: Do you think it’s pure coincidence that the one year Kaman’s rebounding numbers picked up happens to be the one year in which he didn’t share the floor with a PF who was one of the league’s Top 10 rebounders?
It's easy to be a bully who clings to a particular dogma and uses it to belittle those who disagree with him. It's much harder to admit that the world isn't so black-and-white, that we may not yet have all the answers, and that sometimes, even the most logical and empirically minded among us can be wrong. By the logic of the very dogma you cling to, statistics, it is highly unlikely that any one person can be right 100 percent of the time. And yet, to judge by the thousands of posts you've left on this site, you seem to believe that you are never wrong, and that nobody who opposes you ever has a valid point worthy of consideration. Time and again, when a point is made that you can't easily refute, you go off on a tangent, or attack the other person's intelligence, or simply move on to another thread to stir things up over there.
So please, show us that you are indeed as intellectually rigorous as you claim to be by not dodging this debate. Tell us why advanced metrics should be used as irrefutable proof of players' relative talents without any consideration given to the team context. Tell us why you would expect a shooter to perform exactly the same whether his point guard is Steve Nash or Monta Ellis. Or why a defender on a squad like the Celtics that plays great team defense wouldn't have better numbers in his individual matchups than would the self-same defender if he were placed on a woeful defensive team like last year's Clippers. I'll stipulate right off the bat that I'm a know-nothing moron with an addled brain, so you need not waste time making those points and can go straight to the heart of the matter. The floor is yours.
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Comments
Fight after school! This brings me back...
I remember before the internets, the world was a much nicer place…and then online anonymity happened.
They are both never wrong...
But CChuck doesn’t rely on stats for his points of view. Ergo: different people.
John R doesn't make 5,000 posts a day
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Jul 29, 2010 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Heh
comes from the guy with the same amount of comments as me.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 29, 2010 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions
CC tends to rely on attrition - he just wears you out
Not meaning to pile it on…I don’t always disagree with him or anything…
Yea right
logic wins out each time.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 29, 2010 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions
Are Jax
and Banandy the same person. Dumb logic, I use PER to evaluate players.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 29, 2010 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions
It's a little bizarre how you got dragged into this
It’s like everyone is ticked at everyone else…and people are so ticked at John R that they want to also kill anyone who has at some point agree with one of his points.
Bizarre.
Yes - I recall that you agreed with him last week on something
KILL!
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
I can see CC being dragged into this because he matches up with some of the accusations being leveled at John R
It’s not bizarre…and no, it’s not because they have differing opinions. To me, I think CC has gone overboard at times with his level of haterade…vicious attacks on the Clippers. Responding to the hate should be fair game considering the Clippers can’t be expected to speak in their defense here on CN.
Respond to the ideas
Don’t make up ideas about the people.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
You can't control peoples' thoughts, John
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
I saw the movie Inception
and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express before. I can do it.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 29, 2010 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Who wants to?
Think whatever you like about me. Just keep it to yourself.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Vicious attacks?
I point out that the team had a very disappointing free agency. About 2/3rd of CN apparently didn’t like the off-season either.
So let’s recap the three biggest things to happen this month.
Picked the less popular coach (based on a CN Poll) between Casey and VDN.
Missed out on the 1st and 2nd tier free agents.
Sitting on left over cap space.
Yep, a disappointing off-season to many.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 29, 2010 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions
this summary post is fine in isolation...
but you’ve peppered in plenty of snarky throughout in recent weeks, it’s that stuff that distracts from the content of whatever you may be trying to say.
Without snark, there is no internet
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
It would be a smart move
Discounted younger player and draft pick. From a just a basketball perspective it would be a better move than resigning Sool.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 29, 2010 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions
?
You think Vujacic would improve this team?
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 11, 2010 2:53 AM PDT up reply actions
Not really
he’s actually better than Sool though and its the draft pick the Clippers could use.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Aug 11, 2010 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions
Wow, so much fail.
PER is the worst stat you can use. Nothing about it correlates to winning games. Unless you shoot under 31%, you can only improve your PER by shooting more.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 11, 2010 2:52 AM PDT up reply actions
PER is far from perfect
but its still a better barometer than any singular statistic. PPG is easily the worst.
The players with the highest PER were on winning teams, how do you explain that?
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Aug 11, 2010 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions
...
PER is not even close to being a good statistic. Everyone has shown it is a horrible stat. PPG is terrible too. WP48 by Dave Berri, WARP, Adjusted +/-, and few others are the best ways to evaluate a player. Especially using rate stats instead of per game numbers is good too. If you want to continue this discussion with some other guys who may be better at explaining this, come to GoldenStateofMind. Jae would be happy to explain :)
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 11, 2010 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Already discredited source if its used by Warrior fans
I already have my crack dealer hookup for crappy basketball (thanks Steve!). Anymore and I’ll have to check myself into a Malibu rehab facility.
WARP, WP48, PER are all formulaic and the weight placed on each statistical category can be hotly debated.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Aug 11, 2010 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions
While your point remains we don’t have a be it all metric, PER is the worst you can use.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 11, 2010 6:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Your point is silly
And since you were willing to “stipulate right off the bat that I’m a know-nothing moron with an addled brain, so you need not waste time making those points and can go straight to the heart of the matter” it’s true I need not waste my time. But you summoned me and I am a man of the people.
The research is long done and settled. If you are really interested you would read the books about it. It’s all out there. Well sourced. It’s not my point or a theory. It is settled science. Your fight isn’t with me; it’s with reality. Players are who they are. Teammates don’t matter. If you want to come up with some extreme hypotheticals then I am sure you can break any model. No one is playing 5 Marcus Cambys. The fact is Brand and Camby aren’t in the same class. Per 36 minutes, Camby grabs a full 25% more rebounds than Brand. Comparing Brand and Camby and trying to equate them demonstrates 1) a lack of intelligence, 2) a lack of honesty, 3) a lack of research or 4) well something is seriously lacking. For Kaman to come to the same rebounding number with Camby at his side or with Brand at his side is completely unintuitive. But it happens. Just like it always happens. Just like Camby had the same number rebounding next to Nene. Just like Brand had the same number next to Kaman as he had next to Marcus Fizer. One peak season doesn’t change the model. You seem to have forgotten Powell started 25 games in that 07-08 season and he is much closer to Brand than Brand is to Camby. There was one freak season. It was an anomaly. You can accept it or not, but it doesn’t change what is.
If you are really interested in being stubborn and picking fights, then you will continue to do childish things like call people names and use their names in fanposts. If you are really interested in the research, do the reading and then come back.
The fact that you see yourself as being owed a response shows that YOU are the self-important, what is that word you are so fond of, douchebag? You can scream at the heavens all you want.
Its unclear what you are trying to achieve here. Unless it was embarrassing yourself, you failed. Do yourself a favor and delete this fanpost so no one has to see what happened to you here.
I dub thee, Jax 2.0.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Jul 29, 2010 10:49 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
John R, "man of the people".
I can’t get past that sentence. Spit out my coffee.
But, I didn’t think boltsfan21’s argument was particularly offensive. You’ve been called worse and it doesn’t seem to bother you. Is it just because it’s a fanpost addressed to you? You crave that notoriety don’t you?
I asked him to delete it, without it I have no notoriety
I find it extremely disrespectful to use my name in a fanpost. I wouldn’t do it to him or you or anyone.
I just want to live and be a part of the community. Its not me making myself bigger than life with this stuff. The things I am saying are not even really controversial anymore. If players stats aren’t consistent from team to team, then there is no point in them. Without consistency, they have no predictive power and thus they serve no purpose. Luckily, for all, they are extremely consistent.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
But it's ok for you to use mine in a response to his fanpost
You really have no idea what you write, do you.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Hey, you went there first in a fanshot
Or don’t you remember? Seems to be the same thing, hence, my comment is 100% valid.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
When was that?
The statute of limitations may have run out.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Ah that was from some before time?
Ok. Still, what was written was written.
No one forced you to join in this fail fanpost though. That was your choice. And your first response wasn’t even to my comment.
Substituting CC for me isn’t really better though, imo.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
You invited me.
Don’t you remember: “Jax 2.0”
Oh yeah, you don’t call people out.
As I said, be careful what you wish for.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Well you are here
What do you feel you have contributed?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
As I said, do not call me out
But since you’ve asked, note that I’ve tried to explain why you piss people off so much. I’m not sure you get it. So please read.
Why are you here?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
In this fanpost?
Like I said, because I am a man of the people.
You have explained why I piss YOU off so much. I dare to disagree with you is it? This makes me a bully or something?
Or its that I speak plainly and don’t mince words? Its is my style. I admit it. Life is too short for unnecessary prose.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
There's a difference
between speaking plainly and intentionally trying to rile everyone up. I’m also a fan of brevity.
I’m sure you understand that distinction.
Yes, you said he’s “Jax 2.0.” Do you even read what you write?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
As he says below, his beef is with what I said
He is merely trying to hide behind complaining about how I said it. This has been tried before. It didn’t work then either.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
FAIL
I didn’t say that below, in any conceivable way, shape, or form. That’s you arguing disingenuously once again. My beef was totally with how you said it, and particularly with where and when you said it. That couldn’t be clearer, but it conflicts with your never-wrong worldview, so you have to try to change the facts to make them fit.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
QUOTE
“It is both what you said and how you said it.”
“My beef was totally with how you said it "
Both of these things cannot be true, brother.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
And now you call him "brother"
You could use a relationship manager.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
All of clipsnation can be my brothers and sisters
All they have to do is not talk about me. Talk with me please. But never ABOUT me.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
I'm sure that's the context you meant
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Semantic bullshit
Here you were implying that below I had said my beef was only with what you said and not how ypu said it, so I was clarifying that this isn’t true. This is a classic example of the way you bully people by twisting their words rather than debating honestly.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
As opposed to arguing the merits of Kaman's 07-08 season to prove that Gordon isn't below average and therefore I'm a big meany
Yes, I’m the one using misdirection and arguing semantics.
It is not mere semantics that makes those two statements mutually exclusive. You let your guard down for a moment and revealed that it was in fact what I said that bothered you.
Before you started talking about me, you did not exist to me. You didn’t like what I said so you attacked me. If you feel like you are under attack you drew the fire on yourself.
Do the right thing. Delete the fanpost. I will forgive you everything and we can pretend it never happened.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Never
I don’t want your forgiveness. I don’t want to pretend it didn’t happen. I couldn’t give a flying phoooq what you think about me.
What I want you is for you to stop taking people’s words out of context to use against them, as you just did here. What I want is for you to stop shitting all over everyone on this blog whenever they disagree with you, or when we are trying to enjoy one small ray of light in 32 years of darkness, as you did in Newtybar’s post, and as you did when we got the news about EJ making the cut for New York. What I want is for you to stop being such a douche. Then I will forgive you and we can pretend it never happened.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
by boltsfan21 on Jul 29, 2010 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I would suggest that you stop being so
sanctimonious
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Your beef is that he called you out
Yet, in that same post you called me out.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
John R just mentioned you in comments
he doesn’t hasn’t written a page long fan post directed squarely at you.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 29, 2010 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Thanks John R -1
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Plus, there's no need for him to do that
Since he constantly says such things about me on a daily basis
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Quite the opposite
When you start bullying is often when others disagree with you. Though sometimes it is entirely unprovoked, as in your “unbiased analysis” of the current state of the Clippers in Newtybar’s feel-good FanPost, or your continued attacks when the rest of us were congratulating EJ for his Team USA success.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
My fanpost was about Eric Gordon
THIS fanpost is about me.
I can’t say it enough that the only people I have ever had beef with are the ones who want to turn a great blog about the Clippers into a tired blog about John R.
We both know who these people have been.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Jul 29, 2010 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
You've been building to this
It’s just peaking now.
Plus, we all know Kaman’s stats wouldn’t change if he were to play with a bunch of jr. high kids or if Hillary Clinton was the coach.
Come on - you incite alot of argument here
Not fair to blame those you incite. They are all Clipper fans.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Its not becoming a blog about John R.
its becoming a blog about: We can’t take any more John R.
- I’m not by any means including everyone in this statement
Count up the comments
It is what it is.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
I don't care what you dub me
At least it got you to sorta, kinda answer the question instead of completely dodging it once your cries of circular logic fell on deaf ears.
Of course, what’s wrong is your assertion that the research is “long done and settled,” as well as your assumption that I haven’t read any of it. On the contrary, the research is constantly evolving, and only the most dogmatic and closed-minded among us believe that it has, in just 5 years or so, been refined to the point where it is perfect and irrefutable. Most level-headed people realize that today’s advanced metrics are a useful tool in evaluating players, but should not be used as definitive proof that player X “is better than” player Y. Not even Hollinger is that big of a blowhard.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
by boltsfan21 on Jul 29, 2010 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Its not about advanced metrics
Its about if a player’s stats change with teammates. In any meaningful sense, they don’t.
No further study is required.
You can call me a bully, you can whine and cry and screen at the heavens and constantly try to change the subject.
Teammates don’t matter just like coaches don’t matter.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Jul 29, 2010 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
So you say
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
It's not an opinion you idiots.
It’s been proven goddamit.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 11, 2010 2:54 AM PDT up reply actions
Nice post
You spend alot of time here trying to incite people to argue. As you can see, this particular poster does not appreciate your pompous egotistical style. Frankly, I don’t appreciate it either.
You certainly have something to say. It’s unfortunate that you spend so much time so aggressively pushing your point and ridiculing anyone who disagrees with you.
Finally, I have no idea why you are bringing me into this discussion. I do not have a dog in the hunt. Having said that, now that you have, your suggestion that Bolts is “picking fights,” doing “childish things like call people names,” using peoples’ names in fanposts, etc., is quite funny.
You’re actually describing yourself.
But I’d let sleeping dogs lie if I were you when it comes to involving me in your attempts to deflect reasonable criticisms leveled by others. And I would look in the mirror.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
LOL
Thanks for the tips from Mr. I’m Not Mobile.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
You're welcome, Mr. Attack The Messenger (ATM)
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
I think the problem is that...John R considers the stats
as “settled science”…when in fact it is a very solid hypothesis.
If it was settled silence then we could easily use the WoW model and simply calculate the winner and loser of each game. We at Clipper Nation could be rich by pooling our money and placing bets in Vegas!
It’s far from settled.
by Newton Pham on Jul 29, 2010 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions
FWIW JohnR completely takes the BS quote out of context
Simmons says that MOST coaches don’t matter, in a discussion about Red Auerbach (sp?)
In fact Simmons lists Phil Jackson as one of the coaches that do matter.
Its in context, but not complete
The list of coaches that matter to him is very short. Its funny to me to see him comment so frequently about any other number of coaches that don’t matter to him since they are not on his list.
For all Clippers purposes, the quote is complete.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Don't ask me
It’s his quote. This is why it is in my signature, because he said it but doesn’t believe it. It has taken like 3 years for someone to finally understand.
Perhaps some good has come out of this thread after all.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
One freak season?
You can’t make that assertion without another season of Kaman playing with a sub-par rebounder to compare. Brand may grab 25% less rebounds than Camby per 36, but Tim Thomas grabs almost half as many rebounds as Camby per 36 mins, even at Tim’s peak.
hmmm...
I don’t agree with the way Boltsfan went about this… but I have a hard time agreeing with your assertion that teammates don’t matter. How do you feel about D-Wade, LBJ, & Bosh playing together next year? Do you think their numbers will be in line with their season averages? I personally don’t think that’s going to happen. What about putting David Lee next to Biedrins in Golden State? Any stat bump there? These things have an effect IMO. It’s not absolute, but they have an effect.
At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.
It will be a grand test, won't it?
Those two cases are certainly pushing the models to the extreme. But so did Camby and Kaman and the diminishing returns were minimal when compared to Kaman/Brand and Camby/Nene.
Houston was the opposite test last year. There was no known big scorer going into the season, yet their record came out just where the model said it would. I said bet the over, 35 wins was way to low.
I look forward to watching.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
For the Heat?
Barring injury which is obviously unpredictable, 60+ wins seems likely, 65 or more possible.
I guess that comes out as not a very bold prediction, but since I am not putting in the rotation I want and haven’t seen the one they will use, there is incomplete information.
The Warriors might be more interesting. Warriors or Clippers more wins next year?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
I was actually curious
of your prediction as to whether or not “the models” will hold up.
As far as team wins are concerned, I think your prediction for the Heat sounds about right. Clipper vs. Warriors? I think the Clippers will win more games, but not by much.
At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.
On second thought
since your model is stat based, I’m guessing your prediction is that the stats will hold… duh.
At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.
Only Lebron is off the scale
Wade, Bosh and Miller don’t shatter what the Lakers have.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
by John R on Jul 29, 2010 5:57 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Which rotation do you want?
Personally, I would love to see them experiment with James at PG, Wade at SG, Miller at SF (ehh..), Bosh at PF, at C.
Or they could put Wade at PG (he’s got experience there), Miller at SG (where he belongs), James at SF, Bosh at PF, at C.
I, too, am curious as to whether the models will hold up. If James’ stats, in particular, change considerably, we should all make sure to be aware that James didn’t really play SF in Cleveland—-he played as a point-forward that scores. If his role changes into a rebounder/passer and less of a scorer, we should all make sure to acknowledge that. (I assume your theory about teams not affecting a player’s statistics depends on them actually playing the same position/role as in comparative seasons.)
So my original point was thinking about the PG's and C's
But what if there is another idea for the rotations. There is evidence that Lebron can post a wp48 in excess of .900 in spurts. This translates to winning the game by himself.
What if you run out a team focused on Wade, Miller, Haslem, Bosh and Magloire. That’s like a 45 or more win team already. Then the second unit is Lebron and rest. His floormates can’t be much worse than he had in Cleveland and Arroyo is still a nice piece. This second unit only gets 15-20 per game and Lebron just tries to win the game by himself, running the point forward as he would have in crunch time with the Cavs, only you don’t wait for crunch time. You could bring the hammer in the 2nd quarter. The point isn’t that Lebron shoots every possession but he controls every single one and the ball is in his hands.
Too crazy to be tried though. Playing the correct position for one’s talents is very important. This might be a way to force it.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Too crazy? Not for video games!
I definitely used to do that in NBA 2k9 with Al Thornton on the bench, using him to do his iso-game all day, while playing team ball with the starters. If only this version of the 6th man were a popular trend. There are so many players that are best when they have the ball and are surrounded by role players. We call them “black holes,” but they are often extremely efficient. Allen Iverson would be great, even now, if he could accept this kind of a role off the bench. He would have his own team, in a sense, and he could run it his way. If only I ruled the world…
Rec.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 11, 2010 2:53 AM PDT up reply actions
BS
Your insistence that you don’t want it to be about you is the worst kind of false modesty. If that were true, you could’ve merely left the EJ debate where it started, in the “Getting off tilt” FanPost, rather than creating your own incendiary FanPost to draw attention to yourself.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
"incendiary"?
Aren’t you the guy (I’m assuming) who runs around calling everyone douchbag and massengil?
On second thought, based on your knowledge of fem hygene products, maybe you aren’t a dude.
In any event, this fan post was pointless. Why does it really matter to you what John R says or thinks on a sports message board? Are you that insecure?
I’d probably just move on.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Not everybody
Just this one douche, and (once) his henchman Chuck.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Haha
Well then Red, what’s your method of evaluating players? All I can tell is you’ll support any decision the Clippers make.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 29, 2010 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Hmmmm
There you go again, ascribing me unbridled optimism when all I’ve done is reject unbridled pessimism. I certainly don’t support the Brian Cook signing. Nor did I favor VDN over Casey. I did say that I didn’t think the Blakely signing meant anything one way or the other, and that I’m glad they tie up a bunch of cap space by overpaying mediocre players like Outlaw and Gooden.
Everyone who disagrees with you isn’t a blind follower of the FO. It just means we disagree with you.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Another way to say it is that
since we are all Clipper fans, we ought to respect contrary opinions.
CC and John R have a difficult time with that.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
We respect contrary opinions about basketball
The problem is some try to form opinions about people.
If you think it was the right thing to do to name names in a fanpost, keep backing him up.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Um, you said it's improper and in the next sentence you did the same thing
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
How so?
I would love to hear this one.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Seriously? You called Bolts "Jax 2.0"
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
So...
you are upset at the comparison or the fact John R thinks he’s a upgraded version of you?
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 29, 2010 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, that's it
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
And do you think it was right to kick a fan base when it was down
This all started with a Newtybar FanPost entitled "Getting off of Tilt," in which he was attempting to make himself and others feel a little better about what has been a disappointing few weeks for all of us. Who chimes in right at the top? John R. And what does he chime in with? His unbiased analysis that things are even worse than we all think, including the obviously incendiary comment that one of our few rays of hope, Eric Gordon, is in fact not a ray of hope but yet another problem.
Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But that doesn’t mean you should kick people when they’re down. And it doesn’t mean you should be given a free pass when you do.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
"Kick a fan base when it was down"
Dude, you’re going waaaayyy overboard with this.
At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.
You're entitled to your opinion
I’m entitled to mine. Mine is that John R is an egotistical wad, and the example I gave is but one of many instances when he attempts to piss people off for no good reason. Sorry you think that’s overboard, but I just don’t feel like letting the bully keep bullying.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Maybe you should call this guy...
Uploaded with [URL=http://imageshack.us]ImageShack.us[/URL]"/>
At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.
mer...
this guy…
http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/8716/281×211.jpg
At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.
I was just watching this show
but I somehow don’t believe these MMA fighters would top one of those trained martial artist that has been training and practing all their lives.
Off topic, I know.
I started watching...
UFC pretty close to it’s inception. They used to have a lot of Kung-Fu masters, Karate, Kick Boxing, etc. Mostly trained in one or two disciplines. As it evolved, it seems that the more disciplines you were exposed to, the more capable you were of defeating your opponent.
At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.
MM
but these guys only trainned for a few years. These masters train 20 some odd years. Granted their just not as buff as the UFC fighers, but it doesn’t mean they don’t hit as hard.
Yes, MMA guys are trained to win a brawl, but
A martial arts master is trained to destroy an opponent in a few seconds. That’s a totally different kind of combat.
I don't think it's different.
The premise of UFC is two guys in a ring…Just win. If it was that easy for a martial arts master to just finish a guy, they would dominate the sport. But they don’t.
I’ve seen 25 year veteran martial art masters get destroyed by some punk kid. Being a “master” doesn’t mean as much in the cage as you might think.
At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.
It's pretty logical though:
Not to say your point isn’t illogical, but let’s think about it a little. A master, trained since his beginning days, every day consistantly, developes the technique and the true understandings of the term “martial arts.” They learn that it’s not just about defending oneself, but to also find oneself in the process. They train countless hours. They’re good enough to teach.
Now it may seem as if he might not have as much muscles as the MMA because MMA fighters.. are just ripped. But when is it so that muscle appearance is always the clear winner? These MMA fighters have been trained for a measley 2-3 years in BBJ, Muay Thai, and some boxing. They don’t really LEARN all of it. Martial Arts takes time and devotion. 2-3 year is not enough to master it.
We’re both into basketball. In martial arts, “the best offense is defense” really applies. I practice a little wing chun and we’re known for our trapping. If a Muay Thai runs at us, all we do is sidestep and strike. Not to put down any Muay Thai practicetionist, but many of them try to kick our heads off, which isn’t always the best idea because there isn’t any defense.
Anyways, I’m babbling.
Even more so
I’ve done American boxing and Japanese Shotokan. Both of them both strongly emphasize defense also. Shotoan- not as much, but it’s important to cover up after an attack. To make sure your hand is correctly placed so you don’t attacked in the wrong spot. To “downblock” kicks in the right position so you can deflect it without getting hurt.
Didn't answer my question
How do you evaluate players. I can’t figure out how the Clippers FO does it… except it seems to boil down to cost pretty often.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 29, 2010 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Why validate with comments then?
If this was really meaningless, just ignore and lobby Steve to take it down.
I could take it down myself if I found it offensive
but I’m a free speech guy. Just wanted to know why John R was taking up so much space in this guy’s head.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Because I hate bullies
As well as people who feel it necessary to bring other people down. Keep in mind that this all started with a Newtybar FanPost entitled “Getting off of Tilt,” in which he was attempting to make himself and others feel a little better about what has been a disappointing few weeks for all of us. Who chimes in right at the top? John R. And what does he chime in with? His unbiased analysis that things are even worse than we all think, including the obviously incendiary comment that one of our few rays of hope, Eric Gordon, is in fact not a ray of hope but yet another problem.
Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But that doesn’t mean you should kick people when they’re down. And it doesn’t mean you should be given a free pass when you do.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
How much does John R pay you?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Cool
Excuse me I swim around in my money bin.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 29, 2010 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Where do you get all these things?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Easy to find things
when you know what you are looking for. I’ve watched Ducktales as a child so I know who Scrooge McDuck is. Google images is a wonderful tool
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 29, 2010 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm going to check that out
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Brilliant Chuck!
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
"How much does John R pay you? "
This comment proves how disingenuous you are Jax. Just because you always have a motive or agenda doesn’t mean I do. It must be unthinkable to you that someone could just write what they believe above without an alterior reason.
By the way, read my comment again. It was not a defense of John.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Um, lighten up Francis
Just a joke, jeez
But hey, now I’m “disingenuous.” Nice word.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Having said that
Your post is indeed a defense of John R, which is not atypical for you.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Not a defense of John
Read it again.
That said, I do like John, and I’m sure I have defended him before, though it is always unsolicited.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
"now I’m "disingenuous." "
No, for a while now. Nothing new.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Ok, so now you're attacking me based on my joke
Don’t you have something better to do mikey?
Do I spend my time calling you out?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Oh I'm not attacking you
These words “attack” and “defend” are really out of place here.
By the way, you did call me out first by asking how much John paid me to write something that I believe in and had nothing to do with me.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
That was a joke - I wasn't really calling you out
I admit that it was not one of my best ;-)
I think we all need to relax
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Must be a full moon
I rarely agree with Jax but perhaps everyone needs to take a chill pill.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 29, 2010 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions
I blame ClipperSteve for this madness
We, the inmates, are truly running the asylum. With no new stories, what else is there for us to do?
Where are you, Steve?
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
I let him use my money bin for a few hours
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 29, 2010 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions
What about the race cars, lasers and aeroplanes?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Cut backs on the planes
had to let Launchpad McQuack go…. can’t get insurance for him in this economic climate, they said some jargon about him being Amare-like. Huey, Duey and Louie got the race cars this week, they want to race Tyreke Evans. I let Kaman use the Lasers to light his fireworks, he hasn’t returned them yet.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 29, 2010 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions
If this post were a movie, I'd nominate Xmen 3: The Last Stand...
Where all of professor X’s peeps make a line against Magneto’s minions!
With a little Karate Kid thrown in
Sometimes you just have to stand up to the bully
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
good point
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
really??! ya mean it? My mom used to tell me that all the time....BUT to hear it from you kamanhomie means O SO MUCH MORE! SoOoOoOoOo, wat are you doing tonight with that beard good lookin?????
Lighten up everybody! :-) I know our opinions sometimes get the best of us and i’ve had my fair share of problems here but let’s just look on the brightside, were all still alive and have all our teeth…..(well, at least i hope some of you still have all your teeth) :-) I understand both views (John R & boltsfan21) but the way i see it, the world will eventually resolve it’s problems as time goes on. I’m not taking sides here. Good luck to both in expressing and establishing your valid points. BTW, Yes, both points are valid, whether you like it or not but it all depends on how well you can get your point across for others to see why your views back up your reasoning and defend it properly.
"Put the icing on the cake ladies and gentlemen" - Ralph Lawler vs. The Grizzlies
by In GrIfFin We TrUsT on Jul 29, 2010 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions
alt+3 makes it just so you know
great tool when talking to the ladies online ♥
http://bcnbatalk.wordpress.com/ - Scoops on Hoops!
alt+3 is how you make it just so ya know
great tool when talking to the ladies online ♥
http://bcnbatalk.wordpress.com/ - Scoops on Hoops!
Of course, the issue is, who here is MORE beautiful?
There’ll be no love-ins while I’m around. Clearly, most of you are slightly below average. And then there’s Kaman, who we know is way below average, except for one particular season when Tim Thomas made him wear a pony tail. Most would say he looks a little more rugged with a pony tail. Alas, some statistician claims that Kaman looks the same no matter how he wears his hair, so I suppose the point is debatable. Except that I forget what the point was, the one that we were debating. Does anyone here remember the point? Well, apparently, it was nothing worth getting so worked up over in the first place.
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
I kind of like the banter
Otherwise there’d be nothing to talk about…
But i agree, this is a ClipperBlog, and we should all give our biased opinions, as long as they are not at the expense of another who loves the same team, but has a different view on things.
What's the use of a good young core if they never end up being winners for us?
Again, I stopped reading when John R writes "team mates don't matter".
See the case of Marion, Shawn without Steve Nash.
Are we done here?
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on Jul 29, 2010 11:58 AM PDT reply actions
Marion is a great example
But not in the way you think.
Check out Marion’s stats pre-Nash and with Nash. Right on point.
When Marion leaves Nash he is 30 and his stats do start to decline, as one would expect a player of 30 to do, and no more.
And pre-Nash of course, is Starbury. So I suppose if this analysis is to be taken at face value then Starbury = Nash? Yikes.
I mean, now that Marion is 31, is it a lack of Nash that has caused his rebounding numbers to also decline? The things people believe in can indeed be strange sometimes.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
So Nash has no impact on the players he plays with
I guess the old adage that he “makes other players better” means nothing.
Huh.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Yup
Adages die hard, but that doesn’t mean that they don’t need to die.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Actually, some of them are true
Such as the “5 second rule” for picking up dropped food. Someone did a study and it turns out that it takes a few seconds for bacteria or whatever to get into the dropped food.
LOL
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
I would watch Mythbusters NBA edition.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
I looked and the first myth they debunked was WOW
LOL
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
You want another example?
The Jason Kidd Effect on Kenyon Martin and Richard Jefferson. I’ll go further, Tyson Chandler became a borderline All-Star when playing with Chris Paul. He sucked on the Bulls and he sucked in CHA.
You’re wrong, 100%, to say team mates don’t matter. Players are effected, positively negatively, by who they play with. This is a TEAM sport.
Get over youself. No one on this blog but you would argue this point.
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on Jul 29, 2010 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions
You might want to check your examples again
There is no question the team a player is on can affect people’s perceptions of that player as winning often does, but that doesn’t mean that player actually played objectively any better.
Martin’s best season was his last one in NJN. His next best season was his first in DEN. Players’ best seasons typically happen when they are 24, 25 or 26. It is no coincidence that those were two of Martin’s best seasons, but it is a coincidence that Jason Kidd was his PG for one of them.
All of his best shooting seasons have been in Denver though. How did Kidd make Martin better if not by getting him easier shots and upping his FG%?
Or maybe he didn’t make him better at all?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
the fact is we don't know what his stats would be if he continued to play with nash
He may very well have been productive into his thirties just like Nash and grant hill. His rebounding numbers could be another anomaly for all we know. When Staurbury was with the Suns, there were also different teammates. There is simply no factual proof that proves either side. The fact remains that the vast majority of basketball experts disagree with you.
Another test will be to see how Miami’s big 3 play and if their stats change at all.
There is substantial proof
All of the players ever. All anyone has tried to provide here are anecdotes. Anecdotes are not data.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
I don't agree
we can’t go back in time and make Marion stay with Nash just to see if his stats still decline.
no proof
In this case, we are not discussing opinion
This is a question of fact. And you are wrong.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Unnecessary and Disappointing
The EJ post was a reasoned, detailed analysis of EJ’s past season. Someone else might have written in a more diplomatic tone and in less black and white terms, but that’s not the writer’s style. Anyone who reads this blog recognizes this and should be able to use that as context. The post itself was written after a small portion of his earlier post was blown out of proportion and taken out of context by some who seem primarily interested in vanquishing a fellow Clipper fan.
Contrasted with that post, this one is a silly personal attack with only the thin veneer of a basketball related question. It’s disappointing to see a great blog stained by rubbish like this.
Conveniently ignoring how it really started
It started with a Newtybar FanPost entitled "Getting off of Tilt," in which he was attempting to make himself and others feel a little better about what has been a disappointing few weeks for all of us. Who chimes in right at the top? John R. And what does he chime in with? His unbiased analysis that things are even worse than we all think, including the obviously incendiary comment that one of our few rays of hope, Eric Gordon, is in fact not a ray of hope but yet another problem.
Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But that doesn’t mean you should kick people when they’re down. And it doesn’t mean you should be given a free pass when you do.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Ah
So it is in fact what I said and not how I said it.
At least you have come to admit it.
Now look what you have done here. Come to your senses and delete this fanpost.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
In a thunderstorm
The safest place to stand is next John R, he’s the perfect lightning rod!
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 29, 2010 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions
What?
It is both what you said and how you said it. (The “unbiased” was meant to be sarcastic; probably should have used the quote marks, since you Aspy kids have a hard time with that sort of thing.) It was completely unnecessary, and shows you to be nothing but a mean-spirited bully.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Hey
If you fail at writing (again) no need to call other people names.
If you don’t want things to be about me, why did you make a fanpost about me?
I’m sure its not the most illogical thing you have ever done, but its a good one.
At any rate, you aren’t going to run me. Better men than you have tried and tried a lot longer. Get used to the idea that on the internet, not everyone always agrees, but that doesn’t mean anything other than the world isn’t some hive mind.
If you admit that you are crying about what I said, you are completely in the wrong. Just be a man, stop crying, delete this fanpost, and lets get back to talking about the Clippers.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Why do you care whether he deletes the fanpost?
You say incendiary things. He responded. What’s wrong with that?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Because I feel bad for the proprietor of the blog
He doesn’t deserve to have people making massively off-topic fanposts.
I see that you disagree.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Um, he makes more money if more people post
Why would you feel sorry for him. He should send you a commission.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
I feel like he isn't in it for the money.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
I know - just teasing
But in truth the blog is in part about the personalities of the bloggers as much as it is about the team.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Well
Then we agree to disagree.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Fair enough
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
"Not how you have said it"
If you really believe that, you’re delusional.
If a random accountant-type personality posted the same content, you get completely different results.
And if people find language like "below average" inflammatory
I am more than happy to take suggestions on how to soften that up.
This is what this all started over. “Below average”. Those were the words used.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
You really don't get it, do you?
In that case, I’ll repeat it: This all started with a Newtybar FanPost entitled "Getting off of Tilt," in which he was attempting to make himself and others feel a little better about what has been a disappointing few weeks for all of us. Who chimes in right at the top? You. And what do you chime in with? Your “unbiased analysis” that things are even worse than we all think, including the obviously incendiary comment that one of our few rays of hope, Eric Gordon, is in fact not a ray of hope but yet another problem.
This has nothing to do with the use of the words “below average.” This has everything to do with you being a self-important blowhard who has no qualms about kicking people when they are down, and who apparently doesn’t even understand human emotions well enough to realize that this is in fact what you did.
There was no reason for you to post what you posted in that particular thread. We were already familiar with your views, and there of course will be plenty of other, more appropriate times and places for you to express them in the future. Saying what you said when and where you said it was about nothing more than stroking your own ego and trying to show the world how smart you are, regardless of whether it was appropriate or not. And that makes you a self-centered, self-absorbed jag.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
When are you guys going to learn.
There’s nothing else going on and this is when John R goes into his complicated
stats and sub par comparison of players where he gets a raise out of most of you
guys & gals. John R reminds me of the Dre song " Its just a bunch of gibberish,
his comments are written down but he never has nothing to say It’s just a bunch
of gibberish. So bolt don’t get youself worked up from this guy.
by ENCUEROMAN on Jul 29, 2010 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I have invited everyone more than once to ignore me
If its gibberish, what is everyone so upset about? The only one any of my Eric Gordon comments have been directed at even remotely was Newty, and he isn’t the one that freaked out.
The problem is my words rang true, and instead of internalizing the message people have reacted violently. I take no responsibility for this.
Its just information. Or its gibberish. People don’t freak out over gibberish.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
I think you misread what's happened
They take exception to the way you present your arguments. Not the content of the arguments. Surely you can understand the difference.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
I understand the difference
But I find them to be dishonest in their claim. Go back to the original reaction. All of the comments stated “I stopped reading at Eric Gordon is below average.”
There is nothing offensive in saying Eric Gordon is below average from a stylistic standpoint. Really, their beef is that I said it at all.
I think you know this to be true as well. Whatever you or I have said to each other, I didn’t say anything like that it in the comment that started this, and I didn’t say it in the fanpost this fanpost is in regards to.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
My beef is that you said it
in an inappropriate way, at an inappropriate time, for no valid reason. There would have been nothing offensive about saying “Lorenzen Wright is a jerk” two weeks ago. It would have been offensive yesterday. I’m sorry that you can’t see the difference.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
I know what you are saying your beef is
But they way and time you have said it leads me to not believe you. It is what it is.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Yeah, because no one ever gains clarity upon reflection
At the time I knew I was mad, but you’re right, at that moment I was certainly unable to express why. In fact, I’ll readily admit, I didn’t even know why.
But later, upon thinking back, it became quite obvious to me. I had been excited to read Newtybar’s post and the accompanying thread because I was looking for a little bright side, a little silver lining in the dark cloud of negativity, which was promised by the headline of his post. And then, right up at the top of the comments, there you were, shitting all over us again. It got my blood boiling, and no, it wasn’t really what you said, it was how and where you said it.
You can choose to believe this or not. I really don’t care. But it is the truth, and I guess I’ll admit I do hope that it makes you think before you post, because sometimes it’s better to just let people have their delusions than to make them feel like crap for no good reason. I’m sure it won’t have that effect, because you seem to be an antisocial jerk. But a guy can dream.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Count up the earliest appearances, scope and frequency of namecalling, etc
And I am confident I don’t come close to your performance.
Just delete the fanpost now that you have had time to reflect. I promise you I will not gloat over it or anything else. You will never hear about it again from me.
This doesn’t belong on clipsnation.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
It isn't hurting me
You are missing the point. It makes the community a worse place to do stuff like this.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
I think all of us would do well to value the greater good (CN community) before posting...
personal attacks, flippant posts, excessive negativism, etc.
That's the pot calling the kettle black
You’ve been told time and again that the way you interact with others makes the community a much less pleasant place. You choose not to believe it. So I chose to call you on it. It’s no coincidence that so many people have a beef with you. The data don’t lie. If you would admit, for once, that you’re not entirely blameless, and if you would sincerely apologize for consistently being such a jag, then I’d happily delete this post. If not, it seems to be serving its intended purpose quite nicely.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Wait, if he admits it in the post, and then it's deleted
There’d be no record. As your counselor I’d have to recommend that you require an apology in another post so the record would remain . . .
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Your purpose has been to show that you are an irrational dude who gets angry and doesn't even know why?
“At the time I knew I was mad, but you’re right, at that moment I was certainly unable to express why. In fact, I’ll readily admit, I didn’t even know why.”
That’s where things started way back in the Gordon post. I never referred to you until you couldn’t control your anger and freaked out. I didn’t even know you existed. Get a grip on yourself.
Just because you have rationalized your anger now, doesn’t mean you were right then or now. I said Eric Gordon was below average and you flipped.
Let it stand. Its up to you.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Wow, you're a piece of work
My words above speak for themselves, so I won’t even bother to directly address this nonsense.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
They do
That’s why I quoted them.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
That's why you mischaracterized them, you mean
Thankfully I’ll rely on the fact that others are capable of reading them and interpreting for themselves.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Wait
I thought you weren’t going to address this.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
I still haven't
What I did just address is you trying to take another cheap shot, when you know damn well that what you said (and I ignored) was a baldfaced lie.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
That one made me smile
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
sometimes your gibberish gets a rise out of people
I basically said the same thing ENCUEROMAN said in another post
How do you know what I am except from reading my words?
The only thing you have in fact are my words. These words were “below average”.
The rest has been added by you. I think the term is projection?
I get it after all. You think you are the police about who can say what about the Clippers where and when. That doesn’t make ME the self-important douchebag between the two of us.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
This exactly your problem
Look at all your comments mostly are negative or argumentative but whatever
it is you seem to get off on it like a junkie who hasn’t had his heroin. So please
save your self promotional and indulgence to yourself. Beside if you don’t have
something nice to say don’t say it at all.
Asperberger's?
It’s not just your words but the context in which you spoke them, which are fact and which I reported quite faithfully. I’m not trying to “police” anything. It’s about the basic rules of human interaction and civility. For example, it’s not illegal to call the deceased a dickhead at his own funeral, it’s just something you shouldn’t do. But like I said, you apparently don’t have the faintest clue that there’s anything wrong with the way you act.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Again, projection
You might try looking in the mirror Mr. I-Make-Fanposts-About-Citizens.
There was no argument until you freaked out about below average. If you can’t handle below average it is not my fault you are a soft little flower.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Soft flower
That’s a good one from Mr. Delete-This-Fanpost-Because-It-Hurts-My-Wittle-Feelings.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
The trash talk
is getting embarrassing.
“Oh, I’ll prove it. I’ll prove it like a theorem!” – Ross
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 29, 2010 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Pretty funny coming from you
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
This is either the best thread ever
or worst.
I’m not sure which.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
except that I didn't trash talk
oops
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Yes you did
you came out of nowhere on a thread you aren’t even part of to annoy me. Mission accomplished, from here on out if I ever play Mortal Kombat again I’ll instantly be annoyed.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 29, 2010 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions
" >Actually the thread had nothing to do with you
And trust me, you’re very annoying to many of us. And that has nothing to do with videogames.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Trust me
you’re very annoying to many of us as well.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Jul 29, 2010 8:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh wait
You guys are down? I thought it was a great off season and everything was good?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Whose words were those?
Certainly not mine.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Well you accused me of kicking people when they are down
They have to be down to be kicked when they are down, right?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Duh
Yes, we are down. I was asking when I said it was a great off-season and everything was good. Talk about arguing just to argue…
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Ah
So my crime was speaking the truth.
I feel completely vindicated.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
You shouldn't
And I’m actually starting to feel bad for you that you don’t know any better.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Why do you keep asking me to delete the FanPost?
If it doesn’t bother you, then ignore. It’s you who needs to realize that not everyone will always agree with you, and what’s more, we won’t always cower in the face of your bullying.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
112 comments and counting on a gross meta-fanpost
Griping that because Kaman got more rebounds in 07-08 that Gordon wasn’t below average last year making me a big meany, or something.
Make it go away. No one ever need speak of this again.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Wow! Talk about a dog days of summer thread...
even our fearless leader seems to have taken a break from this minutia…i will follow suit…see you boys at start of training camp…
Roger Sterling: To my knees, Don. They're bringing to my knees!"
Question for John R
Correct me if I am wrong but you say that teammates and coaches don’t matter. Imagine the Clippers deciding to sign 5 guys from the Island nation of Tonga who don’t speak English and have never seen a basketball before. if the Clips tell one to coach and tell the other 4 to play with Baron Davis, will Baron’s play be affected?
As I said
If you come up with some extreme example, you can break the model. Of course.
You don’t have to come up with such an extreme example. Marcus Camby scores very well in wins produced. If you play 5 Marcus Camby’s, that team will not do well.
This isn’t what I am talking about, and it should be obvious.
Given the set of viable NBA players, interchanging them doesn’t seem to have as significant of an affect on individual performance as other factors such as age and years in the league.
Its just too long to write that out every single time, hence coaches don’t matter and teammates don’t matter.
Yes, if Kaman were to take the floor with 9 other players below 6’ he will likely grab more rebounds. Because this will never happen in an actual game it isn’t an interesting discussion on an NBA blog and I would like to think I shouldn’t have to state that every time.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Thing is, it sort of did happen
For one year, Kaman played on a team with no other good to great rebounders. That year he dramatically exceeded his career rebounding numbers. Wishing it didn’t screw up your thesis doesn’t make it not so.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Except he did play with other quality rebounders
Josh Powell, Paul Davis and Elton Brand combined to start 32 games and grabbed 9 rebounds per 36 minutes. Ruben Patterson played in 20 games and grabbed 7 rebounds per 36 minutes.
Its funny that despite the mountain of evidence being on my side, you think this one anomoly means you are right and everything else is the world is wrong.
There were plenty of good rebounders on that team.
You still have failed to explain why you are trying to equate Brand and Camby when they are certainly not equal. Is it because it completely destroys your thesis?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Hmmm
So in 32 of 82 he played with some decent rebounders. In 20 more the top rebounder on the squad other than Kaman averaged only 7 per 36. And in the other 30 games?
Seems to me that he had a lot less competition for rebounds that season, and ended up grabbing more. And no attempt by you to confuse matters can kick dirt over that gaping hole in your logic.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
You are focusing on one anomaly and saying it proves your rule
This is not how science works. It is what it is.
Still no mention of Brand vs Camby? Why did his number come out exactly the same with two very different rebounders?
Focus on the big data set. Discount the small. I can easily restate your point as every time Kaman has played next to a viable PF, regardless of that PF’s rebounding ability, his rebounding has been exactly the same.
You have demonstrated nothing. Yes, if Kaman played next to a PF with no hands he would probably grab more boards, but this is meaningless.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
I am not saying it proves my rule
I am merely saying it gives me enough pause to not swallow yours whole. I am not convinced that the game has yet been modeled well enough to support your level of conviction in the inferences you draw. I think there are too many variables not dealt with in the regressions to say with absolute certainty that many factors and circumstances — teammates, coaches, playing for a playoff spot v. playing out the string — don’t matter. I believe some of them might not matter. I may believe some of them are likely not to matter. But I certainly can’t say that they absolutely don’t.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Well that's a significant walk back
So this whole time you have just been arguing against what I said rather than stating what you actually believe. Huh. And I am the one arguing to argue. Interesting.
I have seen this before on Clipsnation. The circle of life goes on.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
It's not a walk back
when you put words in my mouth and then I say I don’t agree with your words. I have stated what I actually believe. I believe the jury is still out on whether teammates matter or not. You believe the matter has been conclusively decided. Therefore we disagree. What part of that do you not understand?
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Interesting
But you don’t believe it is wrong either. At best you are agnostic.
You spend a bunch of words arguing something you claim to be agnostic about. And I am the one arguing to argue.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
No, here you are arguing because you have thin skin
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
I'm not the one that freaked out over Eric Gordon being below average
“At the time I knew I was mad, but you’re right, at that moment I was certainly unable to express why. In fact, I’ll readily admit, I didn’t even know why.”
There’s that projecting again.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
There's that taking things out of context again
The refuge of someone with no leg to stand on.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
How is it out of context?
You have failed to demonstrate this.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Right after that quote, I say what pissed me off
and it wasn’t Eric Gordon being below average. It was:
“I had been excited to read Newtybar’s post and the accompanying thread because I was looking for a little bright side, a little silver lining in the dark cloud of negativity, which was promised by the headline of his post. And then, right up at the top of the comments, there you were, shitting all over us again. It got my blood boiling, and no, it wasn’t really what you said, it was how and where you said it.”
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Well that's how you rationalized it to yourself later
But you don’t know if that’s really true or not. You have admitted to a below average amount of self-awareness.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Bullshit
More lies. The words are there for all to see. I’ll let people draw their own conclusions rather than let you continue to distort the record.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
How do you know?
You said you didn’t know why you got mad.
You merely decided later. Then you chose a target.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
So you've never
done any introspection and gained a clearer understanding of your emotions and/or motives?
I guess that’s not the least bit surprising, but it does speak volumes about your character (or, more accurately, your lack thereof).
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Who hasn't
But then I don’t go around calling other people names first until I figure it out.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
In the sense that they have a mouth, sure
But why would they, except for the sake of arguing?
And in the case of this fanpost, why would an agnostic take out an ad in the newpapers calling for someone to argue with?
Pretty irrational. Probably that anger he was talking about.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Well, for one thing, it reaffirms or tears down their agnostic belief
If a truth claim from another religion can successfully convince the agnostic that his position is off…the agnostic may become a convert of that religion, right?
So, an agnostic arguing against a truth claim is simply an exercise of that agnostic person’s belief.
This may be way off the deep end…and I don’t mind dropping it!
Thing is, it sort of did happen
For one year, Kaman played on a team with no other good to great rebounders. That year he dramatically exceeded his career rebounding numbers. Wishing it didn’t screw up your thesis doesn’t make it not so.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Thanks for explaining
I agree with this-“Given the set of viable NBA players, interchanging them doesn’t seem to have as significant of an affect on individual performance as other factors such as age and years in the league.”
I don’t agree with “coaches don’t matter and teammates don’t matter.” I believe that if you hate your boss you will perform differently than if you loved your boss. I think that Baron gave up on the 08-09 season under Dunleavy because he was losing and he didn’t like his coach. In 09-10 he finished the season strong under a coach that he respected-Hughes and an assistant that he loved-Lucas.
Players can certainly sabotage their individual performance
And the contract year affect may be real. But neither of these things have to do with teammates making you better.
If you look back, I was one of the ones saying Baron Davis was dogging it on purpose in 08-09. That he hasn’t bounced back much has led me to believe that I was incorrect and it may be the effects of age. The rest of the narrative doesn’t make sense because he was clearly better during the first half of last season than at any time as a Clipper. It is very common to see the players quit once a coach has been fired during the season. The Lakers quit once Rudy T quit, for example. They were on their way to a near .500 season then went in the tank when the coach was fired. This is a situation that has repeated throughout history.
Baron Davis had a huge anomaly of a season last year from the FT line. What should we make of this? His teammates made him better at shooting free throws? Hughes made him better?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
It's not even the midseason firing as much as the interim coach thing
The Nuggets posted the best record in the league when they canned Issel and hired George Karl mi