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Around SBN: Yankees Deny Rumors That Team Is For Sale

Marvin Williams to the Clippers?

Curious what the nation thinks of Marvin Williams.  I'd like to hear from people who have actually watched him play, not just people who can look up his stats and write him off.

Here's a player that can probably be had for cheap due to Atlanta's ludicrous max-contract offer to Joe Johnson.  He's a great athlete, a good perimeter defender, can rebound the ball effectively, gets to the line and makes his free throws, and has been consistently improving his jumper, adding a 3 to his arsenal in recent years.  Although the past season was a bit of a disappointment for him offensively, that could likely be attributed to Joe Johnson's ball dominance and the addition of Jamal Crawford, who's not exactly known as Steve Nash either.  In addition, he's only 24 years old, so I don't think he has scratched his full potential yet.  I think a change of scenery might do him some good.

Now the price tag isn't cheap, he comes at $8 million a season, but I would argue that at that price, he's much better than Rudy Gay at the max, or a timid Mike Miller (guy has gotten gunshy in recent years) for $7-8 million.  I also like Josh Childress but Marvin Williams is without question the better athlete and player.  I know a lot of you like Aminu, as do I, but he's going to be a rookie after all, and it's going to take a few years before he can truly make an impact, whereas Marvin is starvin for a team to feature his skillset more prominently.  You could hold out hope for a Carmelo, or hope you catch lightning in a bottle for cheap (because we have to be realistic, marquee free agents won't come here until we win).  Since Marvin is locked up for multiple years, he can grow with the young cast.

If the Clippers could do their usual 2nd round pick for this guy, would you do the deal?

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If it’s just for a second round pick, then sure I’d do it. But he’s not a guy I’d give up anything substantial for. He’s a bum. He plays with zero heart, zero energy, and looks lost out there so often that it’s a wonder he even sees 30 minutes per game. He rebounds somewhat decently and hits the occasional jumper but does nothing else. He gives you no defense, no passing, doesn’t crash the offensive glass, and is a lazy player. This is a guy who no team should want right now.

And to say Williams is better than Childress is a bit irrational. At least Childress can do other things than look lost.

Twitter: @FlyByKnite

by FlyByKnight on Jul 6, 2010 10:52 AM PDT reply actions  

You have not watched Marvin play if you think.....

“He plays with zero heart, zero energy, and looks lost out there so often that it’s a wonder he even sees 30 minutes per game.”

While Josh Smith gets all the credit for being the best defender on the Hawks, all the glory should really go to Marvin. He tells guys were they need to be, he acts as their eyes, and tries to make sure every player is in the right spot.

I watched NBA training camp on NBATV last summer. They were live at the Hawks camp, and JJ, Smith, Bibby, Horford, and Marvin were doing defensive drills. During the drills Mike Woodson never had to say anything to Marvin, but he was constantly telling JJ, Bibby, and Smith that they were not doing the drill corretly.

As far as “zero heart”, how can you say that about a guy you have most likely watched less than a handful of times?

He has “zero energy”? Well he is the only Hawks other than Al Horford that dives on the floor and makes the little plays that don’t show up in the stats book.

He “looks lost out there”, b/c Crawford and JJ have the ball in their hands 80% of the time. Woodson put Marvin in the corner for a drive and kick three or he would put him on the elbow. It is a miracle he was able to average 10+ points this year as his shots and touches were limited.

This is a bold statement, “This is a guy who no team should want right now.” The Spurs, Warriors, Clippers, and Magic all have interest in him.

by NBAFAN8 on Jul 6, 2010 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

Thank you

Finally someone who knows what I’m talking about. It’s hard for Marvin to make an impact when his point guards are more interested in looking for their own shot, or feeding the other bigs. I blame it more on the system than their players actually.

As far as overpaid, perhaps you guys would be more happy shelling out this money to the likes of Richard Jefferson, or Mike Miller, the sharpshooter who doesn’t shoot.

by Uneek721 on Jul 6, 2010 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

I would be VERY happy if we Camby-ed him. Giving up only a 2nd rounder.

At 8 million a year, he’s no more overpaid than Miller or Childress will be. I think his deal is VERY reasonable, and after this season he’d have about 2 years left making him very moveable if we wanted to.

Marvin seems like a great fall-back plan.

"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's doing down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.

by Gordon for President on Jul 6, 2010 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

I've watched Marvin play

He’s a role player, better suited to come off the bench IMO. He never did live up to his expectations and I don’t see any reason to believe that he ever will.

by daclipjoint on Jul 6, 2010 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

You do realize he’s 24 years old right?

by Uneek721 on Jul 6, 2010 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

they said the same thing

about Kwame Brown and he never got any better either (though granted, MW is a better player than Kwame Browne).

by daclipjoint on Jul 6, 2010 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

or is it 5

unremarkable years? Forget Marvin Williams as an option.

by daclipjoint on Jul 6, 2010 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

What about John Salmons?

He was never fully productive until his 6th/7th year.

by JackduhSun on Jul 6, 2010 8:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

don't want him

there are guys with his abilities for a fraction of the price

by bacek on Jul 6, 2010 10:53 AM PDT reply actions  

I thought his contract was ending soon. Guess not. I take back what I said about doing it for a second round pick.

Twitter: @FlyByKnite

by FlyByKnight on Jul 6, 2010 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

You really should not be commenting on this matter....

They just recently signed him to a deal, I believe he has 3 years left on it.

by NBAFAN8 on Jul 6, 2010 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

3 years at

6.7 million this year, 7.5 million next year & 8.3 million in two years with a qualifying offer in 4 years at 7.5 million. He is not worth it.

by daclipjoint on Jul 6, 2010 5:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Do you want the Clippers to win?

If so, this would be a bad deal.

Also, if you wanted opinions from people who have watched him play more than twice per season, the better place to ask would be on a Hawks board.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 6, 2010 11:01 AM PDT reply actions  

I know, right

How much could we possibly watch (unless you have 15 TV’s) when we are all Clipper fans who prioritize watching the Clippers play.

by Michael White on Jul 6, 2010 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

please never ever say "I know, right" not just you MW but everyone as well

and then follow it up with something that is supposed to be a good thought.

It is saying that you agree, and then asks the question if the person you agree with agrees.

It is exactly the same as when people say “irregardless”

/end rant of the day

by bacek on Jul 6, 2010 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

LOL

I know, right?

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 6, 2010 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

I will make no promises.

by Michael White on Jul 6, 2010 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’ll try to stick with using, “word” or “verdad” for when I agree.

by Michael White on Jul 6, 2010 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

I try to watch every Hawks game.

It works well, when you live in the midest as far as start times.

Hawks start at 6:00, Bulls at 7:30, and Clippers at 9:00 or 9:30.

Marvin Williams or Loul Deng would be great additions to the Clippers.

by NBAFAN8 on Jul 6, 2010 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

Not if you want them to win

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 6, 2010 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

Ok, so Loul Deng was the second leading scorer on the Bulls and they made the playoffs.

Do you not think he would be a good addition as a 4th or 5th option on the Clippers?

by NBAFAN8 on Jul 6, 2010 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

They went 41-41 in the east, whoop de doo

Deng can be a 4th option just fine, but he can only be had at a contract that starts at $11M and runs through 2014 escalating to $14M.

If you think the Clippers can succeed paying their 4th option $13M, then we think very differently about how this all works.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 6, 2010 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not a fan of Deng's contract

So I don’t think he’s a good fit. But what are our other real options here? Miller is a lights out shooter who refuses to shoot in recent years, Richard Jefferson is a bum and will get paid a lot more than he’s worth (otherwise he wouldn’t have opted out), Josh Childress is great but doesn’t have as much range and will probably command just as much money but more years possibly. The only other option is to pocket this money, but that’s not going to solve anything is it, assuming you “want to win” anytime soon. Perhaps you’re comfortable giving this money to Kyle Korver, who isn’t without flaws himself?

by Uneek721 on Jul 6, 2010 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Miller is your man

As the team employing Baron Davis one would think its fans would appreciate a player only taking shots he is likely to make.

Childress is also a great choice.

After that, get more creative.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 6, 2010 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

I like both Miller and Childress

As I recall, Childress doesn’t have the range of Miller, but he’s got a lot of intangibles Miller doesn’t have (defense, rebounding).

And while Miller gets knocked for lack of shooting, John R is exactly right—-he’s an anti-chucker. I like the guys who pick and choose their shots (like EJ) than the guys who try to pad their stats (Larry F’ing Hughes).

by Erik O on Jul 6, 2010 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

"taking shots he is likely to make"

The problem is that Miller has been passing up shots that he’s likely to make (by percentage), giving the ball to players who are less likely than he is to make them.

Miller can shoot but he’s got to shoot when open for his percentage to actually pay dividends.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 6, 2010 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Pfft

LOL @ the idea that you know what shots he is likely to make better than he does.

Given that he shot 48% last year, I’m more comfortable going with his judgment over your hubris.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 6, 2010 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

I guess you can ignore the issue if you want to

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 6, 2010 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hey JohnR- Would you sign Miller for 5 years?

At some typical $ that’s being tossed around… $7M/year or so.

"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT

by SilverClip on Jul 6, 2010 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes

Is Ray Allen worth his contract? He is going to be 35 going in to next season and made $18.7M next year.

Shooters can age well and he will be an expiring contract when he turns 35. There is no problem with the years.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 6, 2010 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

It is time to spend some money....

Deng is a top 5 SF in the NBA. He can defend, run the floor, and knock down jumpers from anywhere below the free throw line extended including the corner 3pt.

Plus he is young. Turned 25 in April.

by NBAFAN8 on Jul 6, 2010 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Really?

List your top 5 SFs.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 6, 2010 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

James
Durant
Anthony
Granger
Pierce? Wallace?

by Michael White on Jul 6, 2010 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hah weird

I put that list together in the exact same order before yours popped up… even with the Pierce/Wallace at the end. Weird.

Do Iggy or Gay go before Deng? I can tell you this, no one’s giving Deng the max (though no one should have given Gay the max either).

by Erik O on Jul 6, 2010 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Marvin Williams reminds me of AFA..

They are both big SF or small PF, except AFA is projected to be a better rebouder. Marvin Williams is a solid player that does a lot of things but he is too much like our new rook.

LA Clippers: "Smart dudes that know the game of basketball"

by clippers101 on Jul 6, 2010 11:06 AM PDT reply actions  

that is not why he would be a bad signing

it is the price.

He is a good role player, but way too expensive for just a role player.

by bacek on Jul 6, 2010 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

Besides that, Aminu will also be a better defender. You know what the problem with Williams is? He was never used in college and never showed what he can do. So he never had to improve on anything. He was just raw ability with zero work ethic. That’s such a horrible combination.

Twitter: @FlyByKnite

by FlyByKnight on Jul 6, 2010 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

He has improved his 3 point shot.

Over his first three season he made a total of 25 3 pt field goals. The last two seasons, he has made 95!

by NBAFAN8 on Jul 6, 2010 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yup

Got that % all the way up to 30% last year. Positively Baron-esque!

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 6, 2010 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

The last two years he has been over 30% and the year before last, he was 35.5%.

Plus, it isn’t like he is a chucker like Baron. Last year Marvin averaged just 1.6 3pt attempts a game. Compare that to Baron’s 4.0 attempts per game and his 27.7% shooting.

by NBAFAN8 on Jul 6, 2010 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

Wow, 35.5%!

He probably shouldn’t be shooting 3’s. You say above that was what the coach asked. Perhaps this is true.

I didn’t call him a chucker though. Just an inefficient shooter from deep.

So why did his % drop back down?

And he should probably be making the mid-level, not $8M.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 6, 2010 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

His percentage dropped due to lack of touches.

He got something like 8 shot attempts a game. That is 1 shot every 3 minutes he is on the court. Any wing player would suffer under that situation.

by NBAFAN8 on Jul 6, 2010 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

As the 4th option (at best) on the Clippers

How would this situation be any different?

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 6, 2010 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree with you that I don't want Williams

but can’t a fourth option be paid more than a mid level?

by JackduhSun on Jul 6, 2010 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Absolutely

But if his excuse for his shooting dropping off is that he is the 4th option, and coming to the Clippers he would be the 4th option, this is our concern, Dude.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 6, 2010 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

+1

Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.

by HVYDRT007 on Jul 6, 2010 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

He does not suck

Any guy thats on a winning team should be looked at if they contribute. I’m all for trades and the best trades or salary cap dumping. So if he could be had for a 2nd rounder why not. The clips should look at every avenue to find players who can play.

by clip shot on Jul 6, 2010 3:33 PM PDT reply actions  

"Any guy thats on a winning team should be looked at if they contribute."

I think many people hold this opinion. And there is no harm in looking.

But many, many bad contracts have been handed out based on an inability to properly assign credit for team success.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 6, 2010 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

BD for example

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 6, 2010 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hey, you found a new place to pick fights!

Arguing to argue.

Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball

by John R on Jul 6, 2010 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

No good deeds go unpunished

Just throwing out an example to help illustrate the point . . .

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jul 6, 2010 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Bdiddy

is going to have a break out year. He’s a mcgyver type of guy who needs a free flowing system. Not a billion plays to cram in his brain.

by clip shot on Jul 6, 2010 6:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

I somewhat disagree

I’m a huge Boom Dizzle supporter, felt that his offense was limited during the 1st year of his contract, but after last year, I think age is getting to BoomDizzle. He’s not as athletic, fast, and young as he was before. A fast pace offense might help him out a bit, but he won’t have a break through system as your claiming.

by JackduhSun on Jul 6, 2010 8:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Marvin Williams is a

mediocre option compared to just sticking with a RAW Aminu.

by Akram47 on Jul 6, 2010 4:12 PM PDT reply actions  

I'm pretty sure Aminu is more raw than Williams.

No, not pretty. 100%. But this if of course, comparing the simple knowledge that Marvin has played in 5 seasons in the NBA and Aminu having played 0.

by JackduhSun on Jul 6, 2010 8:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Maybe we can wait for the FA to play out

it seems like there could be many hidden gems throughout the season. When Elton Brand bolted, we traded a second round draft pick for Marcus Camby. How the cow did that happen?

by JackduhSun on Jul 6, 2010 8:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's fine with the bad contract

But he plays enough mins to help the team win. I still feel a coach in place will help guide this free agency. Everything else is just speculation, the clips need to have a system in place before they get any player not named lebron.But just like i said if you have more than 10 pts and 5 rebounds a game at sf and played for a winning team we should be looking at you.

by clip shot on Jul 6, 2010 6:42 PM PDT reply actions  

marvin is a nice enough player

but hes not what the team needs at SF, especially with that contract. we need spacing, he doesnt give that.

by shap on Jul 7, 2010 12:12 AM PDT reply actions  

Improving player, but not what we need

Yeah it’d be nice to have another young, maturing player, but it’s plain and simple, we don’t need more guys who are maturing. We need guys who can play today. Now. We’ve got 5 guys who haven’t even hit age 22 yet! Let’s get some veterans, por favor! I think a Mike Miller or a Josh Childress coming in would be perfect for the Clippers.

Comparing the two’s last NBA seasons:
09-10 Miller – 10.9 ppg/6.2 rpg/3.9 apg/50.1 FG%/48.0 3FG%/82.4 FT%/0.7 stl/0.2 blk
07-08 Childress – 11.8 ppg/4.9 rpg/1.5 apg/57.1 FG%/36.7 3FG%/80.7 FT%/0.9 stl/0.6 blk

Both players stand at 6’8", Miller outweighs Childress 218 pounds to 210. Both are efficient scorers who don’t have to have to constantly chuck at mediocre looks to get their buckets. Another note I might add, in that 07-08 season, Childress played all of his games off the bench, and actually played 3 1/2 less minutes per game than Miller. Miller spaces the floor better than Childress does, he’s a 40%+ career 3-point shooter and that is what makes him a bit more enticing compared to Childress in my opinion. I think if the Clippers got either guy at a good deal both money and contract length-wise, that either one of these guys would be a really nice pick-up for the Clips.

by Dubby Dub on Jul 7, 2010 3:10 AM PDT reply actions  

Well Marvin is not exactly a rookie

Childress entered the league only a year before he did, and technically hasn’t been in the league as long. =)

I agree that Mike Miller is a solid option, I just doubt he will be heading to the Clippers when title contenders want him and there is plenty of money to throw around. Only chance Clippers have of getting him is to overpay.

If you look at Marvin Williams’ trending stats, you would see a steady improvement in his overall game (aside from the past season, for reasons I went into in the original post). But it isn’t all about the stats, he fulfilled a certain role on the Hawks, as NBAFAN8 went into with his comments. I am arguing that, based on watching him play, improve, and observing his skillset, if placed on another team – such as the Clippers, he could play a bigger role, especially with Baron Davis as his point guard. He doesn’t need to score 19 pts a game like Rudy Gay, or shoot 48% from beyond the arc like Mike Miller to have a strong impact on the game. Heck he plays better defense than those guys I mentioned. There’s been this talk for a few years now of the Clippers needing a glue guy – well Marvin Williams I feel, could be that guy.

If Josh Childress was so much better than Marvin Williams, why weren’t teams clamoring to pay him the big bucks last year to try and get him out of Greece? And when I say big bucks, he was only looking for the MLE. He will get paid this year, only because of the ludicrous contracts being doled out.

by Uneek721 on Jul 7, 2010 8:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

Childress

Teams have been interested in signing him for years but there are a few things that make him difficult to sign.

1) Restricted Free Agent – The Hawks can match any offer for Childress.
2) Net income contract – He gets paid far more by his Greek team than he would over here. He’s essentially a near max player if you factor in the tax benefits he receives.

FA in 2010.

by ClipperChuck on Jul 7, 2010 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

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