A Couple of Opinions I Value
by Steve Perrin on Jul 7, 2010 12:01 PM PDT
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PrintObviously, I read a lot of blogs and bloggers. But there are two NBA bloggers who I tend to like more than others - guys who make my head involuntarily bob up and down as I'm reading them and finding that I agree with what they're saying. Those two are Tom Ziller of Fanhouse and Kelly Dwyer of Ball Don't Lie.
There are lots of other blogs I read and tons of other bloggers I love. Kevin Arnovitz is a friend and a guy I have a ton of respect for, but since he's a Clipper blogger, it's an unfair comparison. And while there are lots of team specific bloggers I really like (too many to mention), I'm not a frequent reader of any of them, because there's just not enough time. I touch base from time to time especially when the Clippers are playing that team, but I don't consider myself a 'regular' of any of them.
To that end, I should be clear that I'm talking about Ziller's general NBA stuff on Fanhouse as opposed to Sactown Royalty. Too much Kings detail on SR, all of it great, to be certain. But for general NBA bloggers, Ziller and Dwyer are my go to guys, the guys whose opinions I most respect.
And they have both eviscerated the Clippers for hiring Vinny Del Negro.
The Bulls got to .500 because of raw talent, and little else, under Del Negro. I like the guy, but they won in spite of him. Or, survived in spite of him. And the Clippers - those idiotic Los Angeles Clippers - just decided to ignore the same circumstances that failed for the Chicago Bulls. They just decided to assume that it actually worked for Chicago (why in the hell do they think Vinny is available in the first place?), and continue apace.
So here we are, with the futures of Blake Griffin and Eric Gordon in Vinny Del Negro's shaky hands. Bad teams remain bad teams because they make bad decisions. If the Clippers are still begging for respect and not deserving it in three years, look back at this hiring process, this unbelievable result. This pick has set the ray to nowhere, a place the Clippers know all too well.
So there you have it. Hopefully they're wrong. For what it's worth, Dwyer is a Bulls fan and watches every Bulls game, so he has some first hand knowledge of VDN's tenure in Chicago.
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Steve, while i value your opinion, i don’t care what other bloggers think. Do you remember a guy named jerry sloan, yeah he got fired after 2 years with the bulls and a playoff appearance, he seemed to do ok for himself…Anyway, im happy with vinny, he will bring fire and passion to this team. he did well with the roster he had
The comparison is perfect
As long as Griffin is the new Malone (possible) and…Bledsoe? is the new Stockton (hmmm).
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Really?
In your opinion, Jerry Sloan has no impact on the success of the Jazz over the years?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
If he got those two guys drafted, then yes
Otherwise no. Any other coach would have enjoyed nearly identical success, to the point of being indistinguishable from luck.
I would start by explaining 04-05 if you want to make the case for Sloan. A starting line up that includes Kirilenko, Boozer and Okur up front isn’t enough to win more than 26 games? Yikes.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Yes and AK47 is a complimentary player
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Sounds like excuses to me.
26 wins. A great coach shouldn’t allow that to happen.
If you believe coaches matter.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Maybe his greatness got them to the 26 wins
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
No
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
I don't think he has an answer for the pre-Phil success question
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Jax write his actual opinion?
Doubtful.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Great coaches?
Is Joe Torre a great coach? He sucked with bad players and did average at best with great ones.
In the NBA, there are only a handful of teams that have any conceivable chance at winning a championship at the start of each season. Jerry Sloan continually gets the most out of a roster that really has no chance of every winning it all. And that included the Malone/Stockton days. Even with those two stars, I always considered them a slightly second tier team.
Sloan is an excellent coach. Give him Jordan, Magic and Kobe and he would have 8 to 10 rings on his fingers.
Why didn't the Lakers have success with Shaq and Kobe pre Phil?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
What does Phil Jackson have to do with Larry Sloan?
Answering questions with questions is fun!
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Nice dodge but who's Larry Sloan?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Nice dodge, but how does it really change the question?
What does Phil Jackson have to do with Jerry Sloan?
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
At least you corrected the first name
Obviously you can’t answer, which is not surprising since the only explanation is that coaches do matter.
You are going to have find a new sig
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Jul 7, 2010 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions
My answer requires your answer
What does Phil Jackson have to do with Larry Sloan or Jerry Sloan?
Is your silly point going to be that because one man might matter another automatically matters? That point is so fail on its face, its no question why you don’t want to go there.
So, what does Phil Jackson have to do with Jerry Sloan?
Arguing to argue. You even keep on when you know you have gone down a dead end road.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Since it appears you really don't understand . . .
You said coaches don’t matter. I pointed out a situation where Del Harris coached Shaq and Kobe without winning any championships, and Phil came in and coached the same duo and won three straight.
How can you explain that without acknowledging that Phil is a better coach than Del and because he won three straight championships, he in fact matters?
And again, who’s Larry Sloan?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Jul 7, 2010 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions
It doesn't prove anything
You aren’t very good at logic or these things called variables.
If Bill Simmons said Coaches Don’t Matter Except Precisely Phil Jackson, I might put that, but he didn’t so I can’t.
What does any of this have to do with Jerry Sloan and his 26 win season?
Arguing just to argue. You can’t even stay on the point you want to argue.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Poor dodge attempt there
You, not Bill, said “coaches don’t matter.” That’s your mantra.
Now you want to obfuscate.
I am disappointed in you. I thought you’d at least try.
What’s your new sig – "Phil Jackson is great . . "
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Jul 7, 2010 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions
So the question was, Jerry Sloan doesn't matter
Then you wanted to talk about Del Harris, and I’m the one obfuscating?
I would say I’m disappointed in you, but after all your recent performances, that’s pretty much impossible.
So, what do you see yourself getting out of some imagined future where I don’t say Coaches Don’t Matter? That’s been your whole point today isn’t? Not if Del Negro is the right man for the job or how the free agent search is going.
You are trying to score worthless points on an internet message board. That is to say, arguing just to argue.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
Just trying to understand your logic
You raise these absolutist points, I’m just tyring to figure out whether they make any sense.
Do coaches matter or not? I guess your answer is: “I don’t really know.”
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Jul 7, 2010 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions
No you aren't
You are just arguing to argue.
You have never been interested in learning or understanding anything, which I suppose is the saddest part of all.
Coaches don't matter. - Bill Simmons, The Book of Basketball
wow you two need to chill
basically, all that needs to be said is that there are teams like GSW that seemingly have no coach because all they do is run around with the ball and play street ball….but what ppl dont see is that no matter what there is always some game plan set out by a coach to prepare his team for the game. No matter how basic i may be. Coaches have a great effect on the out come of the games, not always physically in like drawing up plays, but in mentally preparing their team and establishing a mentality for the team chemistry to form around. Hence why some teams have a tough mantra and others like the lakers, jazz, and portland have more of a smart, calm mantra. It is true, it all comes down to how the players perform, but i will not buy it for one second when someone says vinny had absolutely nothing to do with his team winning. No amount of athleticism alone can make a team get to the playoffs, even in the weak east. You have to have organization to play organized ball. period. There is no ifs, ands, or or’s about it.
Obviously, there's a grey area here...
Coaches can make teams without much talent play well above their level (see: 08-09 Rockets).
Coaches can make teams with tons of talent play well below their level (see: 09-10 Sixers).
Teams can play well based solely on talent, with little effect from coaches (see: 09-10 Cavaliers).
Teams can play terribly based solely on lack-of-talent, with little effect from coaches (see: 09-10 Warriors).
Didn’t the 08-09 Rockets have TMac and Yao?
I know both got injured at some point, but that’s a whole lot of talent in there. Yao got hurt in the LAL series (after killing the Blazers) but I’m not sure about TMac.
by Michael White on Jul 7, 2010 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions
TMac was injured in the middle of the season.
Aaron Brooks didn’t know anything yet. Rafer Alston was the starter for half the season. It wasn’t much there.
I remember Rafer being a trainwreck. They did have Artest too…
by Michael White on Jul 7, 2010 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions
He was also a trainwreck for them. Rafer and Artest did their damn best to try to shoot the Rockets out of games. Its pretty bad considering they had a 7 footer who was completely unstoppable who didn’t get nearly enough touches in Round 1.
They also had Scola too as you mention below.
by Michael White on Jul 7, 2010 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions
I was more referring to their playoff performance
When Yao was out and everyone had written them off, they played through and made it hard for the Lakers. Granted, that was a fortunate matchup situation, but guys like Landry, Scola, and Lowry played out of this world good.
Dude. Chill.
Kobe was like 10 years old. It wasn’t until he began to develop that the Lakers started to win
Del Harris...
is a bad example. I see your point, but Jackson following Del Harris doesn’t really explain whether coaches matter. Del Harris was an abissmal coach. They might as well have been playing without one.
Phil Jackson is without a doubt one of the top coaches of all time, but show me a coach who is in the top ten all time who did it without the megastars of their era.
Coaches matter alot. But it is the players who separate who we consider the great coaches and who we consider the good ones.
I would have liked to have seen Phil Jackson coach the Clippers the last ten years, and maybe “Larry” Sloan five years with MJ.
I agree - thanks
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Jul 7, 2010 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions
doesn't count
if he doesn’t predict anything…
Roger Sterling: To my knees, Don. They're bringing to my knees!"
by Lawler's Law on Jul 7, 2010 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Dwyer has the same question I do
Which is why we hired someone who was just fired – why was VDN fired?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Ok, but that's not why he was fired
If they thought he was a good coach, fistfight notwithstanding, he’d still be there (probably).
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
You sure about that?
I’m guessing if Phil Jackson walked into Dr. Buss’ office tomorrow and punched him in the nose, he’d be fired…11 rings or not.
VDN didn't get into a fight with the Bulls' owner, did he?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
And MDSr publicly called out DTS without getting fired
Again, I suspect the Bulls’ management thought he was a poor coach. The fistfight was probably an example.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Uh...he didn't "call out" DTS
He dared him to fire him. That’s all he did. Calling him out would have been demanding that he spend more money b/c he’s cheap. Or telling the media that DTS is indeed a racist.
And daring an owner to fire you is a bit different than getting in a physical fight with your boss. If you can’t appreciate that difference, I can’t help you.
Um, he engaged in a public dispute with his boss
To me that’s calling him out.
To use your argumentative style, which really is unnecessary IMO, “If you can’t appreciate the fact that employees should not engage in public disputes with their bosses, I can’t help you.”
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
VDN was fired
because of the fight but not just because fists were thrown, it was because he either took joahkim noah out of the game when it was with in reach (but they ended up losing) due to the time limit the doctors had for him for his injury, or he was left in an extra couple mins and was supposed to be taken out, and the VP was pissed that VDN didnt do what he thought he should have done. But long before that the VP didnt like VDN and kept looking for some reason to fire him.
Bulls fan here
Noah had a strict minutes limit, and VDN played him anyways in an OT game. that led to the altercation with him and Paxson. now that certainly didn’t help his case, but it was generally believed he was long gone well before that. even back as far as Nov/Dec rumors were flying that he’d be fired. we blew a 35 point 2nd half lead at home against the Kings early in the season, and that’s when the seat started getting hot for him among fans/media in Chicago.
the thing with Vinny is he’s a likable guy, but he seemed pretty overmatched a lot of times. what’s worse is he is not an X’s and O’s guys. some scouts even admitted having a hard time determining if the Bulls were even running plays at times. he’s more of a motivational speaker than anything else. you’ll hear him often use cliches like “attack” and “thrust” and “be aggressive”. the Bulls actually did play hard under him. it’s not clear if it was because of him, or in spite of him. for what it’s worth, i don’t think any of our players (other than maybe Tyrus Thomas) disliked him or had any problems with him.
it’s also tough to tell if he was responsible for development of our young guys, or if that was a product of their own hard work. some of us Bulls fans wonder how much better Derrick Rose could be right now with a real coach (or at least a guy with experience). he and Noah have blossomed that past two years, but many believe it was a product of talent and self-motivation and hard work. they were both lottery picks with a lot of success in college.
i’ll be interested to see what happens with the Clippers. maybe he learned something in his 2 years. Vinny’s a good guy, but very few of us Bulls fans miss him.
by M 80 on Jul 7, 2010 5:38 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hopefully Vinny will get Baron's respect..
That is probably the most important factor as far as winning this year.. As far as developing our guys (BG,EJ,AFA & EB), I hope we get some good assistants that will work with them 1 on 1 and let them develope their stregths before trying to work on their weaknesses.. VDN seems like a players coach and not an X’s and O’s guy.. so we’ll see how this all plays out in clipperland…
LA Clippers: "Smart dudes that know the game of basketball"
I think we need a balance between...
X’s and O’s and a player’s coach. Baron has to feel like he has some freedom but, at the same time must be put in line.
A really good point
I was just about to bring this up, with typical zhivian length.
Is VDN a better coach than DCasey for a Baron Davis-led team?
You should elaborate on this...
I think that is a very important factor in all of this because that was a big flaw with MDsr…
LA Clippers: "Smart dudes that know the game of basketball"
One man's trash is another man's treasure...
but is My Cousin Vinny a treasure. Sometimes coaches do well in different circumstances. He did not perform poorly in Chicago nor did he perform really well. But he did make the playoffs and supposedly was able to work well with young talent. NOBODY knows how he will fair with the Clipper’s. It is like the troop’s in the MIddle East— regardless of your political stance on the war, you should still support your soldiers—- regardless of personal and coach— you should support your team. The bottom line is, most of us really do not know basketball because we are casual fans. Moreover, is has been shown that most of these sports writers have NO DAMN Clue what they are talking about either—- look at how many are wrong about FREE AGENCY. The onlt thing we can do is wait and support. GO CLIPPERS!
"So here we are, with the futures of Blake Griffin and Eric Gordon in Vinny Del Negro's shaky hands"
suuuuure.
because, VDN completely stunted Rose’ and Noah’s growth.
poor, poor Bulls. their young stars are damaged goods now, right?
There are two things that I bring up which has not gotten a good retort to
1. VDN is more qualified in terms of being a head coach. The Clippers chose the more qualified HEAD COACH, what is wrong with that?
2. There is a reason why Casey has been passed up so many times. Not only by head coaches with more credentials (VDN) but also by coaches with less credentials (Drew). To me this leads me to believe that many franchises think that Casey may be a great assistant, that he does not have what it takes to be a head coach.
bacek, your problem is
logic.
don’t come around these parts, spreading your well-thought opinion.
it’s much easier for ppl to over react.
VDN is awful because he only led an amazing, entitled Bulls team to an average record.
he obviously had great players leading his team the first year, the great
Ben Gordon and John Salmons.
but, even without those two, last year he had the dominating offensive forces in the paint, Noah and … uh … that guy. the other guy.
bottom line, VDN underperfomed, right?
no you don't understand my logic
what has Casey done?
It is about credentials when you hire someone. Plain and simple. In terms of head coaching credentials VDN has more than Casey.
No, bacek.
i was saying that your problem is that you’re
being logical.
thus the whole “don’t come around these parts, spreading your well-thought opinion” thing.
ppl prefer to take the signing negatively because we’re the Clippers.
so all of a sudden VDN has no redeeming qualities whatsoever.
Seriously
If Doc Rivers retired and the Celtics hired VDN, we’d be hearing all about how it was such a great signing after that “instant classic” 7 game series last year—-who better to take over than their greatest rival.
Gotta be kidding me, media.
Ok for those asking why did the clips chose to hire a coach that got fired…how about the fact that everybody was lobbying for byron scott and he got fired twice! nobody seems to be questioning him with the cavs…its just the fact that we are the clippers…im happy with the del negro hire and when this team starts winning everybody will jump back on the bandwagon like 06
I don't have a problem with hiring someone that was just fired
this is a “firing coaches” league, and almost everyone has been fired at some point. But just like SP i’ve heard a lot of true bulls media members and people who’s opinions I respect have nothing good to say about VDN. I think i’ve heard him being called clueless on more than one occasion.
I am not able to catch many bulls games, but I do remember one or two simple coaching errors made probably in the playoffs last year, like calling your last timeout for no reason, then not having a timeout to have a chance to win the game.
I really don’t have much opinion on my own, seeing as how I don’t get to watch a the bulls much at all, so I’m still hoping for the best. Maybe all the bulls bloggers are just bitter that they hired someone with no experience, and were just waiting for him to fail. Maybe he’s grown a lot in the past 2 years. Maybe he’ll get some top notch assistant coaches that will make up for all his deficiencies. All I know is i’ll be skeptical until proven wrong, and I REALLY hope he proves me wrong.
If you think about it
Casey was fired the same amount of times as VDN.
Except Casey was not hired right away….
says something don’t it? Get fired and no one hires you….vs. Get fired and immediately have suitors.
Respectfully disagree
I have to say that I don’t read Ziller and Dwyer, but I’m not impressed by these analyses. They’re not getting into the specifics of the Clipper situation.
Ziller’s comments are especially meaningless. His argument is based on and carefully focused on the fact that VDN didn’t know if Hinrich was Kirk or Kurt. Beyond that, it’s a lot of “it’s the Clippers.”
Dwyer has a VDN axe to grind, as a fan of the Bulls. He doesn’t mention some of the challenges VDN faced, such as the departure of Ben Gordon. Rose doesn’t play defense, Noah is only improving because VDN was forced to play him. The Bulls underperformed.
But this isn’t the Clippers perspective. No one is thinking about whether VDN might be the best coach for who the Clippers are right now. Rose doesn’t play defense and his jump shot hasn’t improved, but he was able to run the show and play his own game, he was able to use his athleticism and create opportunities for himself and his teammates. He wasn’t forced to work within a stifling system, and he flourished. Yes, maybe it’s time for him to have a better coach now, after two great years.
VDN played Noah, and Noah got a lot better and gained confidence. As Clipper fans we’ve seen what happens when raw but unique talents sit on the bench and don’t get minutes. DeAndre Jordan is just the latest in a long line of guys who needed more minutes to improve and start making plays.
Looking at the Clipper roster, which is coming out of playing under the tightly-controlled Dunleavy system, I wonder if they’re ready for a more cerebral and systematic coach, like DCasey might be. VDN will need to have a sharp staff and he can improve a lot from his previous effort in Chicago, but he might be the better fit for the Clipper roster. Let ’em play, get ’em to play hard, get them to defend.
And it’s not an end of the world, worst case scenario. The Clips didn’t give this guy a 5 year deal. The Clips are taking a shot with VDN for the 3rd year of the BDavis deal, which turns out to be Griffin’s rookie season and Gordon’s 3rd year, when the team is going to be developing AFA, DJordan and Eric Bledsoe, and maybe Sofo as well, while trying to keep Kaman rolling. The team should be improved, but they’re not going to be playing for championships, and their goal should be something like what VDN accomplished in Chicago, get to .500 and play hard in the playoffs. Maybe let the enthusiasm and BD’s love of the spotlight and big games take them further.
But if the Clips bang into their usual setbacks, VDN won’t be around for long, and they’ll go to a new guy to work with the evolving talent. They’re not making a longterm commitment, like they did with MDSr. when he got the extension. Giving MDSr. the extension, in fact, gives them the cred to make VDN a short-timer who has to prove himself. We should know fairly quickly if VDN is a good choice and he might stick around for awhile.
VDN reminds me of where Gentry was when he was the Clippers coach, along with Doc Rivers before Ainge made the deals for Garnett and Ray Allen. Gentry became a really good coach when he inherited D’Antoni’s system. VDN is inheriting MDSr’s practice facility and a ton of work with Kaman and a team where guys work hard and show great improvement over the summer (before things go horribly wrong). He’s also inheriting Baron Davis, who failed to prosper under MDSr. If VDN lets BDavis play, the way he let Rose play, and Griffin is healthy and gobbles up minutes, the way that Noah did (except with a lot more skills and talent), he could do very well. If they get the right free agent who is a cozy fit and a few good surprises, like that rumblin’ stumblin’ Greek fella, maybe VDN could even have a little mini-Doc Rivers thing going on, especially if he can find a Tim Thibodeau and put together a strong staff.
by citizen zhiv on Jul 7, 2010 1:28 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Great post as always Zhiv
I like VDN and you make me like him even more. He’s an underdog just like the Clippers are underdogs and I hope he (and the Clips) prove all the haters wrong. He has that in common with the team.
Can't go with you on this, Zhiv...
All that talk about minimal commitment to VDN and that he might be a short-timer who has to prove himself sounds like you’re trying to justify a bad hire. Let me ask you, coldly and bluntly: Who was the better hire, Casey or DelNegro?
There is not a clear cut answer..
Because Casey is not necessarily more qualified.. VDN had a better record as a coach and maybe the Clippers FO thought he was a better fit than Casey with the players on the roster.. Niether has really proven much other than they deserve a shot..
LA Clippers: "Smart dudes that know the game of basketball"
I watch a lot of basketball, but I have no clue which of the two coaches is better.
by Michael White on Jul 7, 2010 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm saying VDN is the better hire
But I know the other side, and that I’ve just managed to talk myself into it. But here’s my current thinking.
VDN is a better coach for this roster, this team right now. They have good talent, and they need a media-savvy front man who is “presidential” (I loved that.) Baron Davis, and his level of commitment and engagement, is going to be a big factor on this team. Yes, DCasey helped design the Dallas system for Jason Kidd and he would probably know how to make BDavis effective. But I like the way that Rose flourished under VDN and his non-system. The responsibility will be on the players to make plays, and the Clips have the talent and might have the chemistry to be able to do that, to thrive in a relatively simple system.
I like the way that VDN is an ex—player, like Doc Rivers and Nate McMillan. In one of KA’s articles it said somewhere, about Casey, that he would have had Nate McMillan’s career ten years ago if he had been a player. There’s a bonus and an extra level of understanding and communication in having been a player, and VDN has it, and he also has the ability to sell himself and be a high-energy guy. The key is whether he has the ability to sell his players, starting with BD, on playing hard and making a real commitment. It’s not just BD of course, as he should have Griffin’s effort and focus working for him too. That will be the bonus for him. It will be like having Rose taking the court in Chicago: just let him play, keep him going. If all goes well VDN might be able to bring some extra energy to make the whole greater than the sum of the parts.
I don’t know if this is true of Casey, but by contrast he seems methodical, establishing a strong foundation and installing a relatively sophisticated system that will pay big dividends over time. But I don’t get the sense that he would be inspirational. It would be the old school, hard work approach, no short cuts, execution. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. His system and approach is probably better and quite different from the compulsive approach of MDSr. But it was Casey’s misfortune that the Clips are recovering from the MDSr. era, and VDN provides a stronger contrast.
I certainly don’t mean to justify a bad hire by mentioning the short-timer factor. I just think we’ll know pretty quickly if this is going to work. And it’s not a major decision that is going to determine the future of the franchise, definitely not in some major negative way. It just might work. If it doesn’t, it’s on to the next, and the Baron Davis era gets another black mark and starts to play itself out. VDN seems like a better coach for BDavis and all of the young guys will get their time and evolve, and hopefully they’ll play hard. We know that Griffin and Gordon will.
Another point is that VDN seems like a better choice if it’s just between him and Casey. It’s a vote for enthusiasm and might be brief, but one thing to remember is that there weren’t any obvious choices for great coaches who were available, and the young nucleus of the Clippers is an unknown quantity at this point. There might be a really good, accomplished coach available if Griffin and Gordon and AFA, Bledsoe and DJordan are really good but the Clippers are underperforming. It may be that VDN has better luck than MDSr and gets them to move up a couple of levels but can’t take them higher. But at that point the Clipper stock would be trading higher and the team might be more attractive to a great coach, and some coach might be available. We’ll see.
But as always I have respect for your strong feelings on this. I can understand the frustration and disappointment, and I know I’m bending over backwards to get behind this, but you know how I love the yoga.
You're still rationalizing, Zhiv...
- First, Derrick Rose. Did you see him play in college? (You did, you saw him annihilate Darren Collison in the tournament.) He was big, quick, a great passer, so-so defender, and could get to the rack. As a pro he’s big, quick, a great passer, so-so defender and can get to the rack. He still can’t shoot much. He’s exactly the same! I don’t think VDN did anything with him.
- Maybe he helped Noah. Before VDN his teammates hated him, now they don’t.
- By choosing DelNegro are you really dissing the “old school, hard work” approach? Gee that would denigrate some pretty good and successful current NBA coaches: Adelman, McMillan, Sloan included. You really don’t like the cerebral approach? Forgive me Zhiv, but you define the cerebral approach around here.
- Casey vs. MDSr. Not the same at all. By all accounts Casey was not a controlling, play-calling dominatrix from the bench but a “fix-it-in-the huddle guy.” I don’t see him at all as someone who would take a position antithetical to Baron Davis’ success. Casey, having been employed in a variety of systems, would likely be the guy most able to adapt or design a system that will work given specific parts. I don’t think that would be the case with DelNegro. He’s more of a cheerleader, right? (I can see him in a sweater with a bullhorn leading the crowd, all charming and bubbly. Can’t you picture that?)
- “…it’s not a major decision that is going to determine the future of the franchise, definitely not in some major negative way…” Really, Zhiv? Is DelNegro an interim coach? You’ve got to re-sign Eric Gordon in two years, Blake Griffin in three. You want to hold onto them don’t you?
- Finally, I don’t at all buy the idea that there were no great coaches available. I actually believe Dwayne Casey might be one. Otherwise, I wouldn’t be so upset by the choice the Clippers made.
But I guess finally… you know… it’s the Clippers. Okay, I take that back. Trying to be funny when all is blackness and it’s just not working.
Doc Rivers isn't much of an x's and o's guy either...but somehow we all think he's a great coach
it’s because the guy can talk to NBA talent…same with Phil. Most Laker fans this past season were starting to really second guess Phil for his questionable in-game management decisions (or lack of).
I don’t think better tactics or better talent is the ultimate win formula. The closest thing to a winning formula is…what Doc Rivers calls ‘ubuntu’, or Bill Simmons calls ‘the Secret’. It’s about team being greater than the individual. In a more intangible way, the coach who can bring a team together (and keep them together) is the coach who will succeed. John Wooden built his whole pyramid of success which encourages/instills this very concept.
With that said, I don’t know VDN is the man yet – but, I do get a sense that this is what he’s going after…
Yeah Phil has had the luxury of having very good assistants
hell, Phil didn’t even make his famous Triangle offense that was his assistant.
LeBron or Bust !!!!
Yes I am, sg
Definitely rationalizing. And I’ll keep doing it. I’m upset that you think this is such a dark moment. I’m feeling like the Clips are in a nice little upswing, and I’m not going to let VDN vs. Casey get me down. But I feel your pain, and I’m just trying to help. Let’s go to the bullets!
Rose. My point is that VDN let Rose be the very good/great player that he was going to be, and he deserves some credit for that. He stayed out of his way. Yes, in a better system and with a better coach Rose might have made a little more progress in his first two years, but it could have gone the other way too, and his leash could just as easily have been too short. I’m not saying that VDN did anything to make him better, but he helped him be himself, and stayed out of his way.
Noah. He gave Noah confidence and helped him mature. Not anything great, and I don’t mean to give VDN extra credit for anything special. Again, there’s something to be said for just letting guys play and find themselves. And more to be said for that in the case of the Clippers, after MDSr. never seemed to be able to get much out of the talent on his roster, especially from young players. MDSr drafted Korolev ahead of Granger, and then never even played him when the Clippers went all the way to Russia. It was insane.
The old school, hard work approach. I love the old school, hard work approach. I love smart, disciplined teams. I just worry that the post-Dunleavy, young Clippers, led by the mercurial Baron Davis, aren’t ready right now to take the hard road and do the meticulous, exacting work that a Sloan or Popovich would demand. They need confidence and enthusiasm now, to find some success playing hard. They can get to the details in time. A couple of energetic seasons like the Bulls just had, with a spirited playoff effort, would be a huge step forward for the Clips.
Casey vs. MDSr. You’re right about this. (“a controlling, play-calling dominatrix” Ha! pretty funny) I think Casey could have been very good, but I worry about the detail-oriented coach vs. the cheerleader. No, it’s not fair to compare Casey to MDSr. I’m trying to think of a coach to compare Casey to. Maybe Thibodeaux is a good comparison. The difference is that the Bulls are probably ready for Thiobodeaux now, after two years of VDN, Rose and Noah rising but needing more exacting coaching, and Boozer added to the squad. But as I said I’m hoping that VDN can be a version of Doc Rivers, a guy who gets good players to keep playing hard and stay together. A cheerleader yes, but a good one.
Major decision. Again, if the Clips can get to .500 and play hard in the playoffs, that will be a big step forward. If they’re doing that, Gordon and Griffin will be playing well and they will get extensions. And (also) again, they may need to bring in an Adelman or a proven, successful coach, to go to the next level beyond that.
No great coaches. Casey might become one, but he clearly isn’t one right now. The guys you mention up above, Adelman, McMillan and others with a proven record of consistent excellence and success are in a completely different class. I don’t think that Byron Scott or Thibodeaux or Kurt Rambis or Brian Shaw is great coach by any means.
Hang in there, sg. I know it’s frustrating.
wow! well said.
you just clowned dwyer and whats his name off the blogsphere.
by Chaderack on Jul 7, 2010 2:39 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Big fan of Ziller and Dwyer...
And I cited both of these articles in another thread. I am horrified by the DelNegro hire… especially when you consider the rumors that it was DTS’ choice and that choice might have been made because of salary considerations.
In John R.’s words, it seems to be a return to the days of clownshoes for Clipperdom.
Rumors are just that
And haters like Ziller and Dwyer are the same. There’s no story if it was a good hire for the Clippers. People like to stick with the status quo of keeping the Clippers the laughing stock. The guy took his team to the playoffs twice. If he does that for us will you maybe change your mind about him or is it only because our talent is really good and he didn’t do anything?
Oh no, not at all. I'm a Clipperfan...
I’m a lifer. You can’t get rid of me that easy.
If the Clips play well under DelNegro I’ll be pleased. But it still looks like the wrong hire. It’s a better hire than some others they could have made (Byron Scott, Avery Johnson) but when you have guys like Dwayne Casey and Elston Turner (longtime assistants who’ve worked for great coaches) still on the table, Vinny DelNegro makes no sense.
And I don’t think Ziller and Dwyer are “haters”. They’re both really good bloggers who I enjoy. Ziller’s always a good read and I like both their opinions in general… I’d be really happy if they wrote positive stuff about VDN, but they didn’t. They think the hire was stupid, and unfortunately that reinforces my negative opinion.
Clips saved money by hiring Neil Olshey instead of an experienced GM. That was worrisome. Now they hire a coach and it’s Vinny DelNegro… a guy who seemed only vaguely competent with another team and got fired. You want me to do cartwheels?
lol
No, no cartwheels and I’m glad you’re a lifer. I’m not a fan of certain writers who give their negative opinion’s about the Clippers constantly but to each his own. I know there is plenty of negativity to say about Sterling and co. but I’d rather just give Del Negro a chance then rather have writers basically tell Griffin and co. that there new head coach is a bullshit money saving terrible owner decision because that is the easy way out.
And yes, Sterling is that
but I’d like to hope that with the signing of B Davis a few years back it does show he wants to win.
Kelly Dwyer is GARBAGE!
No one whines more. Whine whine whine is all that guy ever does.
PTI
Wilbon and that “other guy” was just raving about VDN on the most recent PTI episode. Wilbon, like Dwyer, is a Chicago guy and is very familiar with VDN. He called it a “great hire”!
A question
For those who say coaches don’t matter, what teams in the NBA Finals the last 15 years have had mediocre coaches?
No, but he did with the Lakers in 91.
Adelman was the coach who led Portland to the Finals a few times.
by RAR on Jul 7, 2010 7:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Mediocre coaches in the finals
Paul Westphal – Suns
Rudy Tomjanovich – Rockets (two titles)
Avery Johnson – Mavericks
George Karl – Sonics (Karl is pretty good, maybe better than mediocre)
Larry Bird – Pacers
Byron Scott – Nets
Mike Brown – Cavs
Doc Rivers is probably pretty mediocre at the end of the day also.
Of course, a large percentage of finals teams over the past 20 years have been coached by four or five guys – Phil Jackson, Greg Popovich, Larry Brown, Jerry Sloan, Pat Riley – who are hall of famers. I think all of them are great coaches. And then there are the 100 other guys who coach NBA teams from year to year.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Jul 7, 2010 10:43 PM PDT up reply actions
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