Clipper Centers
by bigmacs40 on Aug 30, 2010 11:17 PM PDT
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PrintI don't want to start another thread on Carmelo for Kaman + etc., but I am going to talk about this to start so I can lead into what I want to say about the current Clippers centers.
If Denver was willing to take Kaman, Aminu, and the Minnesota pick for Carmelo (granted he does sign an extension), I think the Clippers should jump on it right away. Now, I am a new member here, and it seems like the consensus here is that Chris Kaman really is the center he was last year and not just a product of the man on the team. I personally feel that his stats last year were a bit inflated. I did not get to see too many Clippers games last year due to lack of cable, but I did attend a handful of them. Yes, there were nights where Kaman was brilliant, but it seems to me like there were more nights made me wish he would stop shooting.
I think Kaman is soft. He seems to settle for jump shots and isn't as strong attacking the rim. For me, I like a guy who goes after the rim, like a Shaq-type player. Perhaps Kaman's skill set fits the Clippers better, but I couldn't really tell since they were just feeding him the ball the whole time last season. Kaman got showcased, in my mind, last year, so I don't really need to go on about what he can do or can't do.
DeAndre Jordan? The consensus here seems to be that he may turn out to be a decent player, but I actually really like DeAndre. He's the power guy I like, the guy who can serve up a facial on someone and still get back on the other side of the court to block someone trying to dish payback. He's entertaining to watch, and I think he showed just how strong he could be in the 08-09 game against the Lakers (11/12 FG, 12 Reb, 4 Blk). I love watching him serve up a power dunk in other guys' faces. I think and really hope he could turn out to be another Shaq, and he's already got the free throw shooting down. Does he need some more work? Well I mean who doesn't? Sure a jump shot or something would make him harder to stop, but that won't really matter if we get...
Carmelo for Kaman and parts. I'll take it in a heartbeat, because I think DeAndre is ready to start, and even if he isn't ready, letting him start would develop him faster than getting him 15 minutes a game. Again, I feel Kaman's stat-line is misleading, and he would put up "disappointing" numbers if Griffin is healthy and Baron is motivated to play. Plus, Ilike the idea of Davis and Carmelo driving to the hoop, Gordon and the bench waiting on the corner for the 3, and Blake and Jordan cleaning up the mess on the glass. I would totally be willing to give up Minnesota's pick for it, because Denver sure as heck would need it more than we do. Would Denver be willing to take this? I don't know; it seems like it won't be nearly enough to pry away Carmelo, but if they don't have any other options, this would help them the most. So let me get your thoughts on the Clipper's centers. Thanks for reading.
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Welcome bigmacs40
Kaman is a player that I love, but that so very frustrating. In terms of offensive skill, he is in a class of few. We know that he can rebound and block shots, but he didn’t do that last season. He let Camby have all of that. Kaman has a vast array of moves that he can utilize. Add in the fact that he is ambidextrous and has developed a jumper gives him potentials that other centers don’t have. What other top centers have is that they are more decisive, have a set role and other players to fall back on. If you look at the big name “true” centers in the league, Kaman is the main option, while they are 3rd or 4th. That means he’ll get more touches/opportunities, but he’ll also get more defensive attention which will result in more turnovers and pressure shots.
DJ is a player that we all knew was a few years away from really being able to contribute in a positive manner. Injuries/trades have forced the Clippers to throw him into the fire a lot sooner than planned. As a result, a lot of fans have more reason to not be satisfied with the growth that he has shown so far. He pretty much went to having Howard/Bynum-Lite potential to being a solid rotation guy. I love that he can finish strong. I would get mad at Kaman for finishing weak, but DJ had that down pat from day one. He knows how to block shots and he’s a good rebounder, but has to improve his defense. His foul shooting is abysmal and much of that is due to lack of muscle memory imo. He needs to find a consistent shot. DJ would be great if he could provide solid post defense, good rebounding and 60-65% Free-Throw shooting. 10-11-2. I’d be more than satisfied. His offense could come off of lobs, putbacks and feeds down low. Nothing too complicated right now.
I’d give up Kaman for a Top 10 player in the league. I don’t think DJ is ready for 30+ minutes a night, but it is a sacrifice that would make us a better team with more winning potential.
Agreed
Kaman >>>>> Jordan by a landslide
but then Carmelo+Jordan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kaman+Gomes
OKC is doing it without a stud center (Nenard Kristic?) all they have it a SF playing PF (Green), a SG in a PG’s body…who thinks hes a PG (Westbrook), a defensive specialist (Thabo), oh yea and super-mega-ultra-star Kevin Durant
Jordan will be our Kristic, Griffin (potentially) owns Green, Baron owns Westbrook (in terms of the better player as a PG), EJ owns Thabo, and Melo would be our version of Durant
…i would rather part ways with Gomes in the deal only so we can see what AFA has to offer…but then again we already know we get a hustle player that can hit the 3 and play the same positions as AFA, while AFA is still pretty much unknown
…the Minny pick would also seem expendable if Melo delivers. We wont need picks because we wont be rebuilding anymore…we would be competing. Look at Detriot, they were a playoff team that had the 2nd pick…they get Darko thinking that their lineup is set as is, basically thinking (Prince > Rookie Melo). Also a high draft pick would just add to the high guaranteed salaries we would have to pay (Blake, EJ, Melo, + a Top 5 rookie?) down the line…i’m happy just paying for Blake, EJ, and Melo. I don’t think we will need another.
by the way did some read Jennings tweet about him forming a super team later on?…imagine when Baron ends his contract…at his age maybe he would accept a small contract and play for the bench. then we go get Jennings. Baron will mentor Jennings and we would have Melo+EJ+Blake+Jennings+DJ…not too shabby
R.I.P. Lorenzen Wright November 4, 1975 - July 28, 2010
Gomes can't be traded until Dec. 15
and I would guess the Nuggets would want to make a trade before the season begins. On top of that I doubt the Nuggets would want Gomes 3 year deal on their books if they are going to rebuild.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Aug 31, 2010 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions
I really like Kaman
No way is Jordan ready to be a starter. I don’t think he will/should ever be a starter in this league. We need another C before we start the season because that is the 1 position if we lose Kaman then we are really screwed.
That being said I’d trade Kaman & Aminu & Minny pick for Carmelo.
This fanpost is why you use stats. Who cares what these guys look like when they play? The stats are the output of what they did. You either score or you don’t. You either commit a foul or you don’t. DJ’s stats are dreadful and what’s misleading is how good he looks when he’s on the floor. Sure, he looks great in a uniform and bangs his chest like an idiot after every dunk, but his game is terrible.
Baron was motivated to play last year and the pick and pop game he developed with Kaman was solid. That’s the best the Clippers looked last year. I’m still curious as to why people think Kaman’s game won’t mesh with Griffin. Kaman has the tools Griffin currently lacks (jump shot, post moves, etc) so Kaman can cover for Griffin’s initial inefficiencies. Kaman’s ability to hit a jumper will Griffin a ton of room to operate so that once his post game is good enough to command a double Kaman will either keep them honest with his jumper or give Griffin the space to operate. I have no idea what Jordan will provide alongside Griffin, this isn’t goign to be a summer league alley-oop fest.
That being said, I still do the Kaman for Carmelo trade and deal with the disaster that is DJ as the starting Center.
DJ is not a starting center right now, the thought scares me.
Either way, I’d do it for Melo and cross my fingers that the Clips could get Dampier or something. Are you saying you would not do a Kaman + AFA for Melo trade?
I’ll give DJ this though, watch the Epic Preview video….he does a SWEET spin move into a dunk. Was beautiful.
those moves are 1 in a million for him right now though...
i agree DJ is not a starting center (right now) and should not be…
but with Melo Griffin Gordon and Baron…i think he will do just fine
on defense:
DJ is good a boards + Griffin is good at boards also = think Camby+Kaman only younger
DJ is good at blocking – Griffin is poor at blocking = Defense + help defense similar to a Camby-lite
on offense:
DJ is bad in the post + Griffin is good offensively = think Camby+Kaman on offense…except younger and DJ would dunk everything (get the crowd into it), but DJ cant hit a jumpshot like Camby
DJ can’t score as good as Kaman + Melo is one of the best scores in the league = better overall scoring
overall looks like the Clippers can manage (this assuming Griffin is as legit as preseason…except without the injury)
R.I.P. Lorenzen Wright November 4, 1975 - July 28, 2010
i dont even see what the debate it about...
If you can get melo and only have to part with kaman, aminu and a draft pick, you do it!
Worst case scenario with melo and no kaman is like 40 wins imo…and I think that’s the absolute worst case.
If we have melo and a good season or two, the clippers are all of a sudden out of the nba’s gutter and in the hunt for cp3 when he’s a FA. I’d do this melo trade just for the prospect of getting cp3 later. Who cares who our center is? Can we bring vlade back?
by indy818 on Aug 31, 2010 9:58 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
If you can get melo and only have to part with kaman, aminu and a draft pick, you do it! … Who cares who our center is?
And that is why you don’t see what the debate is about
but in all seriousness
with Baron, EJ, Melo, and BG as our 1-4….couldnt we just pencil in Ralph Lawler at the 5 and be decent?
Depends on what you mean by decent
but to be a playoff team in the West the Clippers would likely need to add a better center than DJ. Dampier would be ideal once the Bobcats or whomever they trade him to waives him. Aside from that I’m pretty sure none of the remaining free agent centers would be able to fill that role.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Sep 9, 2010 10:15 PM PDT up reply actions
I really think that team could make the playoffs with DJ..
He’ll really only need to play defense and rebound.. and maybe some put-backs.
"look, you can find any coach you want, bring him in here and run the situation. But I don't think they are going to do as good a job as I do." -Mike Dunleavy Sr.
by CLiPPz WeRD 12 on Sep 10, 2010 3:51 AM PDT up reply actions
Melo is also great in the post, can make up somewhat for Kaman's absense and BG's lack of readiness (if that's even an issue).
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on Aug 31, 2010 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions
The thing is, you do have to look at this form Denver’s point of view. Would you give up the face of your franchise for Chris Kaman, a prospect, and a high draft pick? I mean, the stats would show Chris Kaman is a top 5 center, but if Denver is rebuilding, I think they would figure to take 3-4 years of irrelevance before they bounce back, and by then Kaman may start to go on the decline. Perhaps Aminu intrigues them, but I don’t think he’s going to pan out to be another Carmelo for them. It feels like the biggest thing going in this trade for them is Minnesota’s pick, which seems to be a lock for a top 5 pick. So if I were in the Nuggets organization, I would be thinking, “Do I trade THE man for a good offensive center who may not figure to be the centerpiece of our team when we get good again, replacement-Carmelo who is nowhere near as good offensively but could turn into a defensive stopper, and a top 5 pick?” I don’t see Denver taking this trade unless they get desperate due to lack of offers.
Chris Kaman
he’s as good for them as Chancey Billups now…for 2 years they can be the 1-2 punch…after that they will both be off the books..that is $26M in free space right there.
They also have the Minni pick that year, meaning that they can play good basketball in the meantime with Billups and Kaman to save face, stay relevant, and keep fans
so after 2012 they would have a 3rd year AFA, a top 5 draft pick, another 1st rounder, and whatever assets they get from Billups/Kaman ($26M), and whatever assets they get before that…mainly from Smith/Martin
I don’t see where Denver goes bad if they want to start over
R.I.P. Lorenzen Wright November 4, 1975 - July 28, 2010
I’m confused. I’m responding to the trade proposal you put in your fanpost. If you don’t think it’s a realistic deal, why are we discussing it?
by Michael White on Aug 31, 2010 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions
I do apologize, I had not thought of it that way. My thinking was, Denver would be better off tanking these couple of seasons instead of just middling around as quasi-contenders. I just thought that Denver may not take the deal until they got really desperate to move Anthony, because if Kaman doesn’t figure in their future, it’s just Aminu and a top 5 pick. Their own first rounder would probably be around the middle of the first round if they were to go a couple of years with Billups and Kaman holding the ship upright, and I just thought they would be better off mining for a superstar up top in the draft than in the middle. I’ve probably been affected by playing too much 2k9 and tanking in Association mode.
I'm pretty sure they move Kaman and Billups in full on tank mode
They could trade Kaman to the Bobcats for Dampier to clear more space. Can probably get a 1st round pick from the Bobcats for that deal.
They could then move Billups to the Magic for Vince Carter’s expiring deal and a couple of draft picks.
They could also dump JR Smith for a 2nd round (or even late 1st round) pick.
Then they have to rebuild around Nene, Lawson, AFA and a bunch of draft picks.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Aug 31, 2010 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Basically Denver has options if they make a trade with the Clippers
Stand pat and develop a young core around two veterans at the most important positions of the game then go after a new wave of talent to fit the core a few years down the line
or
make another trade (ClipperChuck’s post) and start the new youth/talent development movement now
because when you are willing to lose your superstar (word use lightly with Melo) you are already admitting defeat in the immediate future…but with these options, either way they are in a good position for the long-term futuer
R.I.P. Lorenzen Wright November 4, 1975 - July 28, 2010
Good point about Griffin and Kaman complimenting each other
I think those two guys have the potential to be one of the league’s top frontcourt duos. Kaman’s addition of the midrage J to his incredibly skilled post up game makes him a versatile threat. We all thought that he and Camby wouldn’t be able to play together, and they were surprisingly good; imagine what Chris can do with someone we actually think would mesh with him!
So while I obviously think we should trade for Melo, there is that tiny part of me that would like to see how Kaman and Griffin play together before pulling the trigger. Big men with Kaman’s size and skills don’t exactly grow on trees, even if his game has flaws.
DJ’s lack of improvement pisses me off, especially seeing him in summer league exactly where he left off last season. Getting minutes might help him get a better feel for the game, but ultimately that guy needs to get his butt into the gym during the summer and work with one of the old legends. Howard’s working with the Dream, Hibbert’s got Bill Walton… DeAndre can have Mutombo, or whoever he wants. DJ seems like a cool guy, but he seems more interested in having a good time than working on his game. Maybe his new BFF Griffin will teach him some work ethic and he won’t be as disastrous as we fear.
by Raining Buckets on Aug 31, 2010 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions
DeAndre can have Mutombo, or whoever he wants
or whoever he wants???? NOT OLOWOKANDI!!
if Camby retires, he’d be perfect for DJ
R.I.P. Lorenzen Wright November 4, 1975 - July 28, 2010
Olowokandi = not "one of the old legends" haha
maybe a legendary bust
by Raining Buckets on Aug 31, 2010 10:40 AM PDT reply actions
Yea sorry to say
but DJ is closer to Kwame than he is to shaq right now. I still have hope he’ll develop his game the right way and there’s no doubt in my mind if he put in the work, he could be one of the most athletic guys in the league.
I think there is a little too much emphasis on DJ developing a skilled game with hook shots and jumpers, when all I want him to really do right now is learn to be at the right place at the right time to get open under the basket. Seems like there have been plenty of centers that made a pretty good career out of great off the ball movement, and finishing strong at the rim.
Right now I’m still thinking he can develop to have a career at least as good as a tyson chandler or theo ratliff. There’s still that hope in the back of my mind he can develop his physical tools to be the next dwight howard or andrew bynum, but it’s getting less and less likely by the game.
Could you elaborate a little on his weaknesses? I unfortunately have not been able to see too many games and every game I do get to see, maybe I’ve just been lucky because to me it seems like Jordan is doing all right.
No post moves
No offensive moves of any kind other than “dunk”
Weak defense (both team and individual)
Horrible free throw shooter
Foul machine (the bad kind)
by Michael White on Aug 31, 2010 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions
To be fair
What he’s good at:
1) Very athletic
2) Good finisher above the rim
3) Good rebounder.
Unfortunately, his flaws outweigh almost all of these things. His athleticism is great, but his footwork is poor, causing him to be frequently out of position and rack up fouls. If he ever gets in a groove and is able to get some easy baskets, teams will just start hacking him, and he doesn’t stay on the floor enough (again due to the fouls or the fact that he’s a liability at the free throw line) that he’s not able to rack up a ton of boards. His per 36 stats are solid as a rebounder, but there’s a reason why he never gets to play 36 minutes and it would be a much bigger problem if he was the starter and not the backup.
by Michael White on Aug 31, 2010 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Hmm
I think you are still too harsh on DJ. He’s still extremely raw but he plays hard and is definitely a weak starting center but he’s not that bad.
As you’ll see from the game log, he played well in the games he started. If he was a starter I think he’d be capable of averaging 10 pts, 8 rebounds a game. Nothing stellar but he would he would hold his own against 50% of the starters in the league. Ideally the team would add a veteran like Dampier to lessen the burden but I think the team could get away with DJ as starter if Baron, EJ, BG and Melo were on the court with him.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Aug 31, 2010 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions
He does a lot of dumb stuff and either causes turnovers or makes it easier for the opp to score
He’s in the wrong places a lot of the time on D and when on O he has a lot of bonehead turnovers.
Which offset the 10 points imo.
Either way, if that is the trade take it! A starting 5 of BD, EJ, Melo, BG and DJ (however weak) would be great!
I would be really intrigued had Sofo signed
BD-EJ-Melo-BG-Sofo
I think that could have been awesome…no matter how weak Sofo appeared in summer league I think his offensive game is much more polished than DJ. FWIW, DJ was awesome in summer league and was average/below average during the season…maybe a weak SL means a good season?
R.I.P. Lorenzen Wright November 4, 1975 - July 28, 2010
Thank you for clearing up his weaknesses for me. Would you think that DeAndre would be less of a liability if all he had to do is get lobs for alley-oops and put-back slams? I would think that would lessen his turnovers a bit as he isn’t touching the ball as often and he can play to his strengths. As for defense, I did not realize he was lost all that often. I guess the blocked shots on the stat sheet would lead you to believe he’s doing all right.
No, because as soon as he starts getting in a groove with that sort of stuff (as though it would be possible to tell your starting center to basically contribute nothing on offense anyway except waiting for alley-oops) the other team will just start hacking him and putting him to the line.
by Michael White on Sep 1, 2010 7:39 AM PDT up reply actions
hack-a-deandre
Not a bad game plan when he’s shooting under 30 percent from the line. He needs to improve that, maybe get up to 60 to be less of a liability. No reason for anyone to be that bad at something anyone can master.
by indy818 on Sep 1, 2010 8:33 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
yeah, the hack a DJ tactic can be pretty demoralizing...
I still think he can be a 30 min player though…
agreed about that
its all about basketball IQ and experience for DJ. that would be more realistic
if blake can get Jordan to bulk up his body even more just to add to his already freakishly athletic body….then he can be compared to dwight howard again. all he needs to be that dominating presence in the paint
oh yea and everyone and thier momma knows if DJ gets the ball in the middle…foul hard and make him shoot FT….so DJ needs to learn to finish regardless of how hard he is fouled. Think back to the Shaq Laker days….2 or 3 guys would basically hang on Shaqs arms trying to foul him while Shaq just ignores them and continues with the dunk..plus the foul…that is what DJ needs to be. anything else is just cherry
R.I.P. Lorenzen Wright November 4, 1975 - July 28, 2010
yea shaq was able to overcome his FT shooting
cause would still finish a lot of plays, not to mention Shaq was a great passer out of double teams and seemed like was able to still hit enough FT when teams implemented the hack-a-shaq.
I do think DJ needs more playing time, and kinda “thrown into the fire” before we can possibly see the type of progress we are hoping for. I just hope it’s not like kwame, where he’s given a starting role and never really able to put it together. I have seen a few Kwame-esque possessions from DJ where someone gets him a good pass under the basket for him to just fumble it out of bounds. DJ would probably have to improve his conditioning too if given starters minutes, cause sometimes he looks a bit gassed after decent PT.
Sorry my friend but no way is Deandre ready to start.
Everyone who has started next to Kaman has had better career numbers like Brand
Camby and Randolph. Kaman complements his power forward really well. So if Kaman
leaves he will be missed and i think he needs to rebound and play more defense
this year because now he has Griffin which is a better offensive option than Camby.
But Dj has not gotten good enough to start.
I’d rather trade Vin Baker, Ricky Davis, Stanley Roberts and Keith Closs for Melo instead of giving up our Minnesota pick and Kaman.
Melo is worth at least the Mini pick and Kaman
he is a proven go to guy who makes clutch shots, something the clippers lack.
"It's better to be an optimist who is sometimes wrong than a pessimist who is always right"unknown
Why did we trade Camby again ?
For that magical pixie dust CAP SPACE that everyone was so high about ? Hmmm … the Lebron longshot is now gone, we signed Ryan Gomes and Randy Foye as our super free agents, and if Camby or Griffin get hurt we are left with DJ. At least Camby had the defense we lacked.
Looks like Dunleavy decided to burn the bridge on his way out. Dunleavy you Clever fiend.
incorrect
cap space might be the wrong word as all 3 players involved in the transaction were in their final years. Possibly so that DTS could get some money out of it. “Portland will also send $1.5 million to Los Angeles in the trade and is responsible for $2 million in incentives Camby will earn before season’s end.”
But that of course might not be true, for an aging Camby, we got a taste of a very good backup point guard and a very athletic swingman in Outlaw. The more I think of the two players, the more I like them. But not over the likes of Camby.
"Things change when something is taken away from you" -BG32
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