Who Will be on Team USA in 2012?
by Steve Perrin on Sep 15, 2010 10:45 AM PDT
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PrintNow that the US has won the Gold Medal in Turkey, speculation has turned to who might be on the team that will represent the United States at the 2012 Olympics. With players from Turkey, and completely different players from the Redeem team, and a few other big names thrown in there, USA Basketball will have some tough decisions as to who will wear the red, white and blue in London.
I can't help but point out that this is one of those stories that people will talk about for a few days in September 2010, and then won't be mentioned again for almost two years, by which time many things will have changed. I get a little bit of a kick out of Jerry Colangelo speculating on having half of the roster from the 2008 team and half from the 2010 team. Because, really, who knows?
Chris Sheridan put his stake in the ground with a prediction he put together on the plane back from Turkey. It's not a bad list, but it leans more heavily on the 2008 team than Colangelo has suggested he will. Of the twelve names on Sheridan's list, eight played in Beijing (Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Carmelo Anthony, Chris Bosh and Dwight Howard), three were in Turkey (Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook and Andre Iguodala) and there's one newcomer (Brook Lopez). In addition to the inclusion of Lopez, the one real risk for Sheridan is the exclusion of Derrick Rose. In fact, if you replaced Lopez with Rose, you'd probably have a more likely scenario.
Let's look at this systematically, as I am wont to do. Here are the 36 players who are currently listed as part of the 2010-2012 roster:
LaMarcus Aldridge
Carmelo Anthony
Chauncey Billups
Carlos Boozer
Chris Bosh
Kobe Bryant
Tyson Chandler
Stephen Curry
Kevin Durant
Tyreke Evans
Rudy Gay
Eric Gordon
Danny Granger
Jeff Green
Dwight Howard
Andre Iguodala
LeBron James
Al Jefferson
David Lee
Brook Lopez
Robin Lopez
Kevin Love
O.J. Mayo
JaVale McGee
Lamar Odom
Chris Paul
Kendrick Perkins
Tayshaun Prince
Rajon Rondo
Derrick Rose
Amare Stoudemire
Dwyane Wade
Gerald Wallace
Russell Westbrook
Deron Williams
And don't forget that other names will no doubt surface in the next two years. Blake Griffin, John Wall, DeMarcus Cousins - there will undoubtedly be some obvious additions to the pool of players to consider after two more NBA seasons.
From the 2008 Team, only Jason Kidd and Michael Redd are missing from the list, Kidd having retired from international competition and Redd suffering another serious knee injury. So there are really only 10 redeemers to choose from. Given that, Sheridan has given massive preference to the 2008 team in his selection, taking 8 out of 10, and leaving off only Tayshaun Prince and Carlos Boozer - 10th and 12th in minutes played in Beijing. Maybe that's the way USA Basketball will go - give preference to the vets, who also happen to be the mega stars of the league.
Or there's the approach suggested by Andrew Feinstein of SBNation - he'd give preference to the guys who showed up this summer. There's certainly something to be said for it. While it can get difficult to tell the legitimate excuses from the bogus ones, you still have to feel like the players who couldn't be bothered to play in 2010 because they were 'tired' should suffer some consequences. If it's just a matter of showing up once every four years for the Olympics, isn't that the old system? Isn't that what Colangelo's changes were meant to eliminate?
It doesn't help the Redeemers cases that so many of them have behaved so badly this summer. James, Wade, Bosh, Paul, Anthony - the sense of entitlement in these players during this off-season, the attitude of "I only want to play basketball in a situation that favors me and virtually guarantees my chances of winning" has been depressing. And it just happens to be an attitude that would be exacerbated by them getting their spots back on the team. Should USA Basketball turn around and reinforce their childish behavior? "We've assembled the team just the way you requested, and would love for you to come to London with us, Mr. James?" Yes, the US wants to win the Gold Medal, but what message does it send?
At any rate, I'm not going to try to predict the entire 12 man roster. Too many things will change such that it's just pointless. There will be injuries, there will be players whose NBA production falls off considerably, there will be players not currently on the list who require future consideration. Given Krzyzewski's apparent disinterest in having a traditional post player, wouldn't Blake Griffin make a great Coach K center?
Even the idea of "half from 2008, half from 2010" makes little sense. There are several players who weren't on either team who should absolutely be considered. What about Brandon Roy? Would you be inclined with someone like Roy, who has been in the pool of players for several years but has had bad timing with injuries, to finally give him his chance? And of course there's age to consider. Chauncey Billups will be 35 in 2012; Kobe Bryant will be turning 34. Even Dwyane Wade will be 30. Do you send Wade to his third Olympics? Or do you give that opportunity to a younger player?
About the only thing I know for sure is that, barring an unforeseen circumstance (injury, dispute, etc.), Kevin Durant will be on the team.
It will make for some good drama in July 2012 if all these guys actaully show up at 'try outs'. If you cut Derrick Rose in order to keep Paul and Williams, you've probably burnt that bridge. Or perhaps the better example is Bryant. If you keep Bryant, odds are whoever you have to cut (whether it's Andre Iguodala or Eric Gordon or whomever) is going to be pretty hacked off, and that player may not be back when the 2014 Worlds come around. But at 34, Bryant is no doubt looking at his last major competition in London. He'll be 34, he didn't play in these worlds so it's hard to imagine he'd play in 2014, and he'd be 38 by the time the Rio Olympics roll around in 2016. Eric Gordon will be 27 that summer. So you have to think about the future as well.
But as I said, it's all speculation for now. We'll start getting answers in about 22 months, by which time most of the questions will have changed.
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Best of 3 game playoff, 2008 team Vs. 2010?
If they do I just hope it is on TV, and on a HD station. Winner goes to 2012 UK Games.
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
Nice
I wanted to comment on Sheridan’s picks, but this is a better approach, with some actual analysis. Would have liked to see you speculate just a little bit, however. I guess that’s for the rest of us, for the moment.
One thing Sheridan did, the main thing that my Clippercentric self noticed, was that he put Westbrook on the team ahead of Gordon. I think that was based on a few plays in the final game, although you could include the semis, the fact that Gordon’s shot didn’t fall the way it did earlier in the tournament. Westbrook is competing against Wade and Kobe for minutes, not to mention the PGs Williams and Paul. And the thing is, Gordon is a better shooter and zone buster than all of those guys, aside from Kobe. But it’s important to remind ourselves that we’re in awe of Westbrook and he’s really fun to watch (and a Bruin), he and Kevin Durant seem to be the good guys, and the bias towards Gordon is largely based on being a Clipper fan.
The Kobe question is a curious one. He’s going to take things one at a time. Now that his stacked team is going for a threepeat, have to see how that goes first. But it seems reasonable to assume that he would try to win one more NBA championship over the next two years (if not two), and then he might cap off that string by going for the gold medal. But it’s obvious that the Lakers 100 game NBA season takes its toll, and he might not have the juice left at that point. Even if there are no significant injuries the nagging ones wear you down and the only time to fix them up is during the offseason. So if Kobe doesn’t get an NBA title in 2012 his slot might be open. He might have to save some gas for the 12-13 season, as he’s running around in some real twilight at best, if not deep darkness. The guy has a whole lot of miles on him.
Bron is as much of a lock as Durant, I would think. The way the superfriends shakes out will affect things. It’s sad, but one or two of the top ten players will probably have some sort of significant injury. And there are levels of injury. The NBA is the day job. These guys are going to go to work and most of them will be in the playoffs and there could be all sorts of things wrong with them that make them want to heal up in the offseason. “Finish the NBA season (in May or even later) and then heal and recover” is a special Olympic category.
That gives the young guys like Westbrook and Gordon and Rose an advantage. Then you get into the big man questions. The pinnacle of international big men is just happens to be that other Laker, although Spain will have both Gasols, which should be fun. But you don’t really need an Andrew Bynum, Jevale McGee, or DeAndre Jordan type at all. SP is right that Blake Griffin should be able to do whatever Odom can do, which includes guarding Pao Gasol.
Probably worth noting that Kaman will have to play with Germany next summer for them to qualify, right?
I could speculate all day, of course
I have Bryant out. Between the age, the finger, the knee… I mean, they say the finger will never be the same again. Does he really want to put his body through another 7 or 8 weeks, when his season is already as long as it is? So I think he’s out.
The Gordon vs. Westbrook question comes down to team composition. If I were to nitpick on Sheridan’s team, it makes little sense. There’s no pure shooter on it, which most people tend to think you need. So, yeah, if I thought there was any reason to nitpick on a team of a guy 23 months in advance of an event, I’d say Gordon is the better choice. But there’s so many moving parts it’s just pointless. Westbrook was great, and he’s hard to ignore. But if you already have Paul and Williams, and Westbrook shooting doesn’t get a LOT better, you’d rather have your fifth guard be a dead eye shooter. It’s a similar argument as we used to justify EJ’s spot on the 2010 team when it looked like he had no chance.
The other thing that seems way off about Sheridan’s team is the positions. Five guards, one of them being Kobe Bryant? On Coach K’s olympic team, Kobe Bryant is a full time forward, period. Wade will play a lot of forward also. That seems to leave room for Rose, and maybe Gordon. And two true centers (Howard and Lopez)? When Krzyszewski plays zero of those? No way Lopez makes the team unless he becomes a completely different player between now and then.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Sep 15, 2010 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions
As much as I dislike Kobe, let face the fact's that USA would not of got Gold in 2008 without him.
And if he played at the World’s in 2006 USA would of got Gold then too.
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
Uh.....OK?
Look’s like the Fact is you did not catch the 2008 Gold metal Game Then?
Everything starts out New, Gets Old and Dies or is Destroyed.
There are 4 years sepearting those olympics
and that is 4 years of wear and tear on Kobe. He is not the same player as he was then and he definitely be the same player 2 years from now. Kobe is better left off the team if anything it would be the best thing for Kobe who needs off season rest more then a lot of players.
"It's better to be an optimist who is sometimes wrong than a pessimist who is always right"unknown
Kobe plays
if he wants to play. Will be based entirely on his recent play? Probably not but because of his name, leadership, resume and previous tenure on the team he’ll get dibs if he wants.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Sep 15, 2010 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions
I think you misspelled Dwyane Wade
"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins
"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.
by John R on Sep 15, 2010 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Durant isn't a pure shooter?
I’d say he’s at least as good a shooter as Gordon.
I agree though that the team needs more shooting, and Colangelo mentioned that himself. If EJ builds himself into a lethal, Michael Redd/Mike Miller type shooter between now and 2012, he’d be hard to ignore.
Did Colangelo really speculate that there would be half from each roster? I read a quote where he said there would be a “blend”. That’s an odd statement to make.
I agree with you that Kobe will likely be out. I expect Wade, Lebron and Bosh will be a package (as they will be for everything going forward) so I expect all 3 to be there.
I have to take issue with your criticism that Sheridan’s team is 08 heavy. After all, that team had the best talent. So it’s completely reasonable to expect the Olympic roster to be 08 heavy if those players are available. With the exception of Durant, if every player on both teams wanted to play, nobody else on the 2010 team would be a lock.
But as you say, it’s way too early to tell who will be available. A lot will change between now and London.
EJ would fill the role of a Michael Redd
Or he could be the defensive stopper that Kobe called himself in 2008.
The problem with the 2008 team was a lack of defensive effort, and that was exactly what carried the 2010 team, which had a lack of talent.
I really dislike having guys like Melo and Bosh and Deron Williams on the roster, when you leave out excellent defenders. Wade’s punished his body quite a bit over his career, and will he still have the energy to replicate what Westbrook and Gordon did this year? I’m sure LeBron and Dwight Howard will still be effective defensively, as they are athletic freaks, but the rest of the guys from 2008 aren’t really known as “lock-down defenders.” One has to wonder if they’ll still have the lateral quickness. CP3 gets a lot of steals by filling lanes, but he’s not going to harass players into taking off-balance buzzer beaters that land squarely in the palm of his hand.
It seems like Coach K was emphasizing defense (which might explain K-Love’s playing-time-snub) so I wouldn’t be too surprised if he brought back his best defenders from 2010, in 2012.
defence
was one of the 2 things this team had going for them (the other was Durant). Let’s not forget that this was a B-team. It wasn’t like they had much choice when most superstars declined the offer to play. Coach K went with what he had. Going all-offensive would have killed this team.
When everyone wants to be at the party it will be a different ball game. Unless they improve vastly we wont be seeing much of the 2010 team in London.
by BelgianClipper on Sep 15, 2010 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Overrated, overpaid, oft-injured shooting guard?
Is that a role that needs to be filled?
Redd kicked in 25 points for the whole tournament.
"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins
"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.
I dont see Chris Paul making it.
He will get tossed around in FIBA play.
6’ 175 pounds? not happening
2008 team stats for reference
Because memories fade and hype is believed…
"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins
"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.
Crazy stats for the new Big Three
Per 36 minutes…
Wade would average about 30 pts, 8 rebounds, 5 assist a game
James would average 30 pts, 8 rebounds, 6 assist a game
Bosh would average 20 pts, 12 rebounds a game.
I guess they can play together.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Sep 15, 2010 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions
FWIW
James didn’t play along side them as much as he will in Miami…
Wade and Bosh were reserves…
meaning LBJ was free in the starting unit…only contenting with Melo really for points (Kobe was a stopper and Howard was just an inside presence)
and Wade was free in the 2nd unit…..with Bosh as the inside presence
For a stopper
He took 21 more shots than the next guy. That’s 2.6 more shots per game on a team of hyper-efficient all stars. He couldn’t even stop himself from shooting.
Don’t believe the hype.
Kobe’s strongest attribute is his legion of mindless followers who will call you names if you point these things out.
"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins
"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.
Yeah
It was interesting to see the gaudy shooting percentages of Wade and Bron compared to Kobe. And Bosh was even higher.
Kobe got up a whole lot of shots for a stopper.
by citizen zhiv on Sep 15, 2010 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions
That's funny, I seem to recall that the USA won the gold
I must be thinking of something else
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Cool story, bro.
"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins
"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.
Kobe Bryant
could see it as his last chance to play at the Olympics. And unless Andre Iguodala or Eric Gordon take some major steps forward and Bryant regresses badly I can’t imagine that they’ll be pissed off about that. There is still a vast gap between them and Bryant.
If they bring in the superstars, shooting won’t really be a problem. In the end it is about winning and even if the team would have some obvious defects (defence?) they should still win it easily.
Lebron, Wade and Howard
have all improved a lot on defense since then. I think playing with a obsessive freak like Kobe helped them long term.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Sep 15, 2010 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions
werd
I don’t care about stats much at all. Fact is Kobe brought a level of effort that was a step above anyone else on the roster. I think everyone benefited and took the games seriously almost solely because of the level effort Kobe was putting out.
I can’t see LBJ, Howard, Melo, taking the FIBA games as seriously without Kobe. Sure he might’ve taken a few too many shots, but he also was hustling for loose balls, putting on defensive pressure, and all around taking the games VERY seriously.
I hope Kobe plays in 2012. I think it depends on where the lakers are at that point. No one can say, but if they 3peat next year, and fall short before the olympics, I can see him just preparing to get back on top for the next NBA season and sit out the Olympics. I think CP3 and Dwight can both be in contract years that summer (which might be interesting as Kaman will be expiring and BD can opt out that summer too ;)), so we’ll see if they want to play.
as much as I hope so,
lets let him play a regular season game before saying he can fill a void for kobe.
Are we really compliment Kobe Bryant?
I guess USA completely throws out all NBA rivalries
(but i’m not complaining, i actually agree with you)
finei can talk trash about him i'm not american
fuck kobe
he is a jerk and an asshole
fine then i guees it's not trash talk
it’s true
Team USA Prediction
Starting 5
1. Chris Paul- over Deron because you don’t need a combo guard here.
2. Kobe Bryant- Best living proven SG in the world. Yes over dwayne Wade.
3. Lebron James- He and durant can flip flop between the 3 & 4
4. Kevin Durant- He and Lebron can flip flop between the 3 & 4
5. Dwight Howard- most dominant 5 in the game.
Bench Guards
Deron Williams, Derek Rose, Dwayne Wade
Bench Forwards
Carmelo Anthony, Chris Bosh, Andre Iguodala
Bench Centers
Brook Lopez
-I would say Chris Bosh could be replaced by David Lee or Kevin Love because they are not so alpha dog minded, they woudn’t mind rebounding.
"Best living proven SG in the world"
What does this mean?
What is your proof?
I would take Wade over Bryant every time in every conceivable basketball situation.
"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins
"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.
LOL
"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins
"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.
Hmm
you just replied to your imagination then?
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Sep 15, 2010 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions
I wanted to point that out
But I wasn’t sure if he could read the message or not.
"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins
"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.
sorry
But I’d take wade now, and I’d especially take him when kobe is 33. Just sayin.
Like steve said, so much will change. Its just hard to say, but I feel comfortable saying that kobe’s skills can only go one direction from here on out.
by indy818 on Sep 15, 2010 2:14 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
have to disagree on kobe
in 2 years (if not already)wade will be much better, i’m pretty sure griffin is gonna be better than bosh who is highly over rated, and anyway i have Lee ahead of him in 2 years, of course over rating and playing with wade and bron could help bosh
I think Bosh is WAYY over rated. I see a young buck like Griffin, Cousins, or Love taking his place.
-1
Bosh was so overrated that he’s now underrated. He’s the 2nd best PF in the league.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Sep 15, 2010 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions
You have him ahead of Duncan or PGasol?
"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins
"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.
Behind just Gasol
did I forget a elite PF? He’s ahead of Duncan now I think, its pretty close.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Sep 15, 2010 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Hmm maybe Dirk?
I think Gasol’s the best PF in the league now. Him and Duncan are the only two way guys and he’s younger.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Sep 15, 2010 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Not really
its not as if Dirk’s a better defender or rebounder. Dirk’s a better shooter but he doesn’t shoot many 3’s anymore. Bosh has a higher TS% now too.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Sep 15, 2010 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions
good point - i was thinking about overall skill set, Dirk is superior to most bigs
Otherwise, I’d say Duncan, Gasol are the guys…KG too if he was still mobile…
KG 3 years ago
no contest. But he’s only a knock-off bootleg version of that KG now.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Sep 15, 2010 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions
I have Dirk, Duncan, and Gasol still ahead of Bosh
he is top 5 but I wouldn’t say he is 3.
"It's better to be an optimist who is sometimes wrong than a pessimist who is always right"unknown
I think Bosh can be overrated
But it depends on the rating. He is very good, but hasn’t been great very often. Calling him great or something worse like all-time would definitely be overrating him.
"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins
"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.
I just saw your love note to Kobe below
makes sense now.
Wade is a much better player than Kobe at this point of their career. Kobe is (or perhaps was) on a much better team however.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Sep 15, 2010 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Why do you think Kobe is better than Wade?
by Michael White on Sep 15, 2010 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions
way to pony up and ask
I’m more curious to know if anyone thinks kobe will be better in 2 years. Wade will still be in his prime and kobe will be most likely on the decline (even if they are declining from hall of fame levels).
by indy818 on Sep 15, 2010 3:00 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
If most of the Redeem team returned, would you think Coach K run this starting line up?
PG: CP3
SG: KB24
SF: LBJ
PF: KD
C: Melo
Wade for Kobe is cool
Howard for Melo…..I understand it in a logical basketball way….
But Melo was the real deal in international play before the Redeem team. He just knew how to get it done (quietly) each and every game…very consistent, but not as big time as say LeBron or KD. I think it would be too hard to bench Melo.
Hmm
Melo shot 43% during the Olympics. The lineup would be much better with Bosh or Howard playing C
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Sep 15, 2010 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Yep, Melo was great
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Why kobe over wade..
-Its been 7 seasons, and he couldn’t win another championship so he gets 2 superstars to make it happen. He may win 2-3 more, but kobe never had more than 1 other superstar… Like Jordan only had Pippen.
- Kobe has more game winning shots than Michael Jordan. As you age, you don’t lose your shot as much as your athleticism… Ask Ray Allen.
-Kobe is a leader and a killer. He led the lakers, to championships. Not Shaq. He got it done with Shaq and after Shaq. Dwayne Wade was Shaq’s Robin. Shaq said it in interviews.
- He has swagger and killer instinct. That goes along way.
-At the same age, Compare Kobe’s stats against Wade’s. You would think on a stacked lakers team, Kobe would have less but he out performed Wade every year who is on an empty Miami team.
- Kobe is 6’6" and plays better defense and has an outside shot. Wade is 6’3",can’t shoot 3’s. He plays above average defense, but he doesn’t shut down players as hard as kobe can.
- So Wade is 3 years younger. Thats not much when your comparing 33 and 30 in 2012.
Ps John R don’t take it personal. Just fucking with you.
Not sure here
but I think Artest, Odom and Bynum trump Chris Bosh by himself.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Sep 15, 2010 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Don't worry about me
I wrote LOL cause I did.
"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins
"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.
Where did you ge the game winning shot stat from?
It’s not a official stat so its hard to find. No reputable site has that info.
Shaq never said that, he said he won the titles (hence the Finals MVPs he won) not Kobe.
And don’t you need to go update your Kobe Fan Club site?
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Sep 15, 2010 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Which guy was more efficient during the other 47:59?
Why not just win the game before the last second?
"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins
"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.
I'm with you on that one.
Kobe and Wade can kneel down to the best shooting guard in the world and let’s
not be mistaken with on any of these other forgery shooting guards in the league,
and that my friends is one Michael Jordan #1 of the fifty greatest players in the
NBA. So i think this Kobe vs Wade is an obsolete discussion. You want last
minute shot making winner of all time thats MJ. I think he actually create that
stat.
I think either one would be fine
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Kobe can't shoot threes either.
Your points are subjective. And for the most part, ridiculous.
Blake Griffin.
I think its important to note
that players like Melo, Howard, Wade and LBJ played on some other National teams as well so taking a tournament off isn’t as big a deal. I think it hurts guys who have never played (Brandon Roy or Blake Griffin) on any of the teams. Right now the only spots open should be the 4 mentioned (Redd, Kidd, Boozer and Prince). Of the Redeem team group the most likely to not play again would be Kobe. With Durant taking up one spot (well-deserved), there are about 4 spots open to 15 players.
FA in 2010.
Not sure what this proves
Other than that Kobe shoots a lot at the end of games (and that LBJ is the best player in the league).
44% shooting? Just +7? Doesn’t sound all that impressive. They are better than Wade’s stats but this isn’t exactly supporting the Kobe is so clutch diatribe we heard about.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Sep 15, 2010 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions
This is why there must be a balance between perception, stats and results.
Perception can be one thing, but then the stats say something else. Stats can be manipulated to support an opinion or they can be used to kill an opinion.
Game Winning Shots covers shots in the final 24 seconds with the game being tied, down 1 or 2 points.
"Chris Kaman IS Black Sikma" - swamigusto
by Lawler 4ever on Sep 15, 2010 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Read that before
Kobe is overrated by his fanboys. I’d rather have Melo or Carter taking a game-winner, or having the ball. Also, it appears Kobe can’t shoot FTs as well to win the game. Yet, “he’s a killer and a leader.”
Blake Griffin.
Small sample size first off
and 2nd it just showed that both guys weren’t that good in the clutch last year. Based off the stats you’d want LBJ to take those shots anyways.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Sep 15, 2010 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Your creating your own argument.
This is between Kobe and dwayne Wade. Not lebron.
You brought up the game winner stat
which you cant verify. I’m pointing out that the ball should be in Lebron’s hands anyways at the end of the game.
FA in 2010.
by ClipperChuck on Sep 15, 2010 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Seems like a dumb argument
I’d have no problem putting the ball in Kobe’s hands at the end of a game. I’ve seen a number of game winners from him.
I think I’d be comfortable putting the ball in LBJ’s hands or Wade’s hands too.
In fact, I’d just be pretty happy if any of the three of them were on my team.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Stop being thick Chuck.
Lebron is on the top of the list. Correct.
The original argument that i pointed out was that Kobe was better than Wade concerning game winning shots.
The larger point is, of course
That this is less than meaningless.
You are making the case for a guy based on 1second. Kobe may (or may not, it is a tiny sample) be better for that 1 second, when the situation comes up. Wade is clearly much better over the other 47:59.
1 second per game or 2879 seconds per game?
Why would you chose based on the one?
"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins
"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.
"clearly much better"
This just sounds like a dumb argument. Not to defend Kobe, but why do you say that?
Let’s look at objective evidence: Rings? Kobe Wins? Kobe
I suspect that you are likely basing this on some WIN-based statistical argument that you blindly believe in. Can you please explain it?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
You suspect wrong
Ask again without your biases and prejudices and I might.
"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins
"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.
What bias? Just explain yourself instead of acting like a tough know it all
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
The fact that you believe you are bias free may be your greatest bias of all
"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins
"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.
Are you going to explain your opinion or should we just ignore you?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Who is this we? You and your mom?
"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins
"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.
Wow, very creative
I guess once again you have no explanation. Why am I not surprised.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Ask nicely and you can have one
Or did you just come to ruin this thread as is your MO?
"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins
"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.
Actually, I was on the thread before you
And merely asked you to explain your aggressivley stated opinion. I understand that you might not to do that.
You won’t ruin the thread if you just engage like a normal person for once.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
For what its worth
(which is nothing)
I have the Clippers at 5-3 in games decided by 3 points or less last season. 4-3 under Dunleavy.
Thus proving the old adage, good teams win close games. Or something.
"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins
"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.
Or that the clippers weren't in very man close games
"It's better to be an optimist who is sometimes wrong than a pessimist who is always right"unknown
It makes sense
We would expect the teams in the middle of the pack to have the most close games and the teams on the extremes to have the most blowout wins and losses.
"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins
"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.
Actually this stat reflects the last 5 minutes of a game.
Can you prove Dwayne wade is a better player?
To you?
Probably not.
I am certain I can prove he is better than EJ, and yet I think not everyone here would accept that either.
"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins
"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.
That's because EJ is clearly "below average"
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Good one!
"To claim that you can simply watch a player and see his or her overall contribution to wins suggests that you believe your mind can do something that research suggests is difficult. Despite the limitations of personal observation, though, human beings still tend to believe the analysis based on this approach is correct. Such overconfidence can often cause people to ignore contradictory information." - Berri and Schmidt, Stumbling On Wins
"Hubris; H-U-B-R-I-S; Hubris" - Sean Salisbury.
im willing to bet 2010 B team beats 08 olympic team
Given FIBA rules and officiating!
by big0lbad on Sep 15, 2010 5:29 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
I would love to see those two teams play an exhibition game..
It would probably be more entertaining than the Allstar game!
"look, you can find any coach you want, bring him in here and run the situation. But I don't think they are going to do as good a job as I do." -Mike Dunleavy Sr.
by CLiPPz WeRD 12 on Sep 15, 2010 8:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Kobe Bryant vs Wade is
different comparison then Bryant vs EJ … . Still they will pick Bryant for 2012 if he wants to play. Wade too for that matter. Who is better? Well does it matter? That is up to the coach. I could see them both logging respectable minutes (hell it might be deal breaker for KB: I’m in when I don’t have to play 35 minutes a game). Who starts? Wade seems to be able to check out his ego at the entrance (if not, the Heat is going to be even more interesting to watch next season), so you might get some compromise where KB gets the “honor” of starting the game out of “respect”… .
I honestly don’t get the KB-bashing. Come on folks, he has won 5 titles as one of the main players on those teams. He is no MJ but he is one of the all time great.
next dream team
Wade is my pick to start, even if Koby plays if memory serves me correctly D Wade was the tournament MVP coming of the bench…nuff said
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