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I'd Love Josh Childress: Why do the Suns get all the wings?

Before he was signed by the Suns, there appeared to be consensus around Clipsnation.com that Josh Childress would be a great addition to your Los Angeles Clippers. With half of the 2010-11 season gone by, this consensus appears to have evaporated. What happened?

Josh Childress was signed-and-traded to the Suns for a second round pick. His compensation was reported as five years for $34M by ESPN.com. According to the only guide you'll ever need, the average salary for 2010-2011 was $5.765M. So Mr. Childress got a slightly above average salary by any standard. Based on his historical performance, this is a steal. Poking around the automated wins produced site you will find that in his time with the Hawks he was an elite wins producer.

That's the history.

Before we go further, let's get into the point. What is the point? The point is the Clippers should still be pursuing Childress and to provide general background on how to align advanced stats with simple stats and different ways to think about player evaluation.

So what is the present?

Josh Childress has not lived up to historical performance so far this season. What's wrong? He is playing with Steve Nash. Steve Nash makes everyone better, right? He made Shawn Marion. He made Amare Stoudemire. Why can't Nash get through to Childress?

So where is Childress falling short? Obviously, he has missed all nine of his three point attempts. Not good. But this isn't a significant shortcoming, based on history. For his career, Childress has attempted less than one three per game, and made less than one half. Zero out of nine is just a small sample size. If you liked Childress' game before the season, it makes no sense to be discouraged by his lack of triples now. He is down in this regard, but it is largely inconsequential. There are two areas of concern where Childress was good but is now struggling. His turnover rate is way up (wtf Nash?), and his FT% is way down. What does it mean? Well small sample size again. Also, are we concerned that a once good free throw shooter has forgotten how? Are players defending him better from the line this year?

Outside of that, Childress is who we thought he was. "Wait a second John R. He has only played 550 minutes. His per game numbers are way down too." No doubt. The first issue leads to the second, so let's take a look at what is happening in Phoenix this season. Before and after their big trade, the Suns have had the following players report for significant minutes at the two and/or three:

Wing WP/48
Richardson 0.151
Dudley 0.132
Hill 0.116
Childress 0.111
Carter 0.094

 

Wow.  Look at those Suns, stockpiling players to try to make their team better.  They have a bunch of average to above average wings.  So largely it looks like Gentry has made a good decision with the rotation.  While Childress is a starter on some teams and sixth man on many, the Suns have buried him because they have had multiple slightly better players.  Nothing wrong with that.  It would seem to indicate that Childress should be available, shouldn't it?

Because his minutes per game are way down, so goes his x-per-game stats.  This is why we look at per-36 minute stats.  With per-36, we see that, except in those two areas, Phoenix got the Childress they thought they were getting.  When minutes played is held constant, the Suns can see that they actually got a good deal.  It will become a great deal once the turnovers and free throw shooting get sorted, and we can be sure at least the free throws will.

Given that Childress is having the worst season of his career, but is still an above average player, his slightly above average salary doesn't seem out of line.  It would have been perfectly reasonable for the Clippers to try to outbid the Suns on two fronts: by offering a higher salary to Childress, or by offering more favorable trade conditions with Atlanta to convince the Hawks to force Childress' hand.  In hindsight we can say that what we said in July has been correct enough through the first half of the season.

What would even bad Josh Childress do for the Clippers?  The vision is Childress is the starting three and soaks the backup minutes at the two.  Mainly he pushes Gomes out of the rotation and Butler and Foye off of the team.  With Gordon as the starting two and Aminu as the backup three, there are plenty of minutes for Childress as the starter.

Is it worth it?  How much better is bad Josh Childress than Ryan Gomes?  Let's avoid those scary advanced statistics as much as possible.  The first thing to note is that we aren't talking about different roles.  We are talking about two "glue guys", as played out as that term is.   The second thing to look at is that what Childress lacks from deep this season, he continues to make up from the free throw line.  Both players are taking between eight and nine shots per 36 minutes this year, but Childress is getting to the line almost twice as often.  Early on, Gomes was much more competitive in getting to the stripe, but as his career has progressed his numbers have headed in one direction.  How to value this difference?  Normally we would use TS%, which considers all three methods of scoring.  Even with his awful free throw shooting and lack of a deep threat, Childress is still the much more efficient scorer, and its not close.  Never has been.  It should be noted that in 2011, .346 from deep isn't actually much to write home about.  Because Gomes cannot efficiently score any other way, his TS% is an awful .509 this season.  .509 would be ok for a traditional FG%.  After getting the boost from three's and free throws you need that much closer to .600.  To Gomes' credit, he seems to know that he is shooting poorly and is refraining from taking more shots that he has to.

Childress has been a better rebounder for his entire career, but I think the non-scoring stats come out in the wash.  Though, like his ability to get to the line, Gomes rebounding has been heading only one direction.  Is this indicative of declining athleticism?  Not a good sign if this was someone that was counted as part of a youth movement that had potential.  Still it should not be surprising give his age.

With Josh Childress in heavy rotation, the Clippers are definitely a playoff team this season.

With Ramon Sessions and Josh Childress, two players who were available for what the Clippers could pay well into free agency, we are talking about a serious swing.  Even with both players performing near their historical lows on their current teams, the upgrades would be huge.  With any good luck at all, the Clippers would have been quite competitive right now, and for years to come, without sacrificing future flexibility.  Not accounting for injuries, a rotation of Davis/Sessions/Bledsoe, Gordon/Childress/Sessions, Childress/Aminu, Griffin/Smith/Aminu, Jordan/Kaman could have reasonably produced in excess of 25 wins through 41 games.  The actual injuries the Clippers happened to sustain, most notably to Davis and Kaman, would serve to increase the expected wins by giving more time to Sessions and Jordan.

I think this concludes my run of mid-season reviews.

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Good post

Surprised the non-scoring stats are offset though. 2.5 more rebounds (2 of them offensive rebounds no less) offsets 1 turnover in my opinion. Can also add that Childress is the better defender and blocks an occasional shot as well.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 31, 2011 5:17 PM PST reply actions  

Great analysis

You’ve made a clear and compelling case for something not at all obvious at first glance, and your logic is utterly irrefutable.

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.

by boltsfan21 on Jan 31, 2011 5:18 PM PST reply actions  

Sounds like we should go after Dudley!

Although he does seem to hate on the Clips…

by banandy on Jan 31, 2011 5:20 PM PST reply actions  

I would rather have Pietrus.

"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.

by Gordon for President on Jan 31, 2011 5:23 PM PST reply actions  

Pietrus

has been horrible this year by pretty much any measurement. D is hard to measure but he’s been terrible elsewhere.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 31, 2011 5:27 PM PST up reply actions  

Looked pretty good against us in LA...

And he’s clearly not a horrible player.

"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.

by Gordon for President on Jan 31, 2011 5:28 PM PST up reply actions  

Well

he only shoots 3s now (he averages one FTA per 36 now). For those of you who only want a spot up 3 pt shooter who can play D who is a below average rebounder then I guess he’s ok. Just keep in mind that’s all he can do.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 31, 2011 5:32 PM PST up reply actions  

A 3 and D guy is what we need.

"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.

by Gordon for President on Jan 31, 2011 5:35 PM PST up reply actions  

Also saying I want Pietrus out of him and Childress.

He’s FAR from my top choice.

"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.

by Gordon for President on Jan 31, 2011 5:36 PM PST up reply actions  

I'd take both

if the Suns would take Gomes and Foye back. Then I’d pray that Pietrus was dumb enough to opt out this summer (he has a player option for next year).

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 31, 2011 5:38 PM PST up reply actions  

If Pietrus' IQ is anything like his BBIQ

Maybe he’ll opt out.

Blake Show > Lake Show

by Erik O on Jan 31, 2011 5:55 PM PST up reply actions  

just maybe

:)

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 31, 2011 5:28 PM PST up reply actions  

Nah

That guy sucks

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.

by boltsfan21 on Jan 31, 2011 5:33 PM PST up reply actions  

I agree, let's get him!

I think he has played a majority of his minutes at SG, in Phoenix, and should probably play the majority of his minutes at SF.

Would Phoenix trade him for Gomes straight up?

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=4ks4qwm

They would save a lot of money. Call ’em up Olshey!

"look, you can find any coach you want, bring him in here and run the situation. But I don't think they are going to do as good a job as I do." -Mike Dunleavy Sr.

by CLiPPz WeRD 12 on Jan 31, 2011 5:33 PM PST reply actions  

I think

Foye straight up would work. They would actually play Foye some, Gomes would be stuck on the end of the bench for 2.5 years.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 31, 2011 5:36 PM PST up reply actions  

If Olshey does make this trade

Would it have Jax’s endorsement?

It would be quite a conundrum…

by supac on Jan 31, 2011 5:42 PM PST up reply actions  

Sure - I trust the FO at this point to determine what's best for the team

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jan 31, 2011 5:42 PM PST up reply actions  

+1

"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.

by Gordon for President on Jan 31, 2011 5:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Foye for Childress?

The Gomes would be riding OUR bench for 2.5 years. I like what Foye is doing in EJ’s stead, seriously doubt J-Chill would be quite as a competent as our starting 2.

"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.

by Gordon for President on Jan 31, 2011 5:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Childress wouldn't be the 2 guard

he’d be the starting SF. Gomes would be a sunk cost, maybe tradeable as a expiring contract in the summer of 2012.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 31, 2011 5:52 PM PST up reply actions  

Then start Rasual at the 2? During the Odyssey?

"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.

by Gordon for President on Jan 31, 2011 5:53 PM PST up reply actions  

Eeep.

"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.

by Gordon for President on Jan 31, 2011 5:53 PM PST up reply actions  

We're talking beyond this year

and/or before the year. The hole this year is too deep to make a playoff run barring some kind of miracle trade. Even with EJ for the Odyssey, making up 7.5 games is too much unless the Blazers and Nuggets implode.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 31, 2011 5:56 PM PST up reply actions  

If we're talking beyond this year, can we please aim a hell of a lot higher than Josh Childress?

Blake is an All-World talent, he will attract more of the same.

"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.

by Gordon for President on Jan 31, 2011 5:57 PM PST up reply actions  

Maybe

but the Clippers have less than the MLE now to barter with. The FO really killed the cap space for 2 years by signing Foye and Gomes.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 31, 2011 6:00 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm going to call the hyperbole police.

Foye is an expiriing contract THIS summer, and Gomes makes four milli. Neither has killed our cap space.

"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.

by Gordon for President on Jan 31, 2011 6:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Um

Foye and Gomes are still on the books for 2011-2012 meaning the Clippers can’t sign anyone for more than the MLE (and they have less than the MLE) this summer (hence dampening the Blake recruiting effect). So unless they move one or both then the team has to trade for help.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 31, 2011 6:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Didn't I just say that?

My point being if we need the cap space, we can easily make it. Let’s discuss the need for the MLE AFTER the trade deadline (where we may not need it anymore) or after the new CBA (when it may not even exist).

"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.

by Gordon for President on Jan 31, 2011 6:07 PM PST up reply actions  

There's alot of chicken little screaming around here

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jan 31, 2011 6:09 PM PST up reply actions  

If you weren't such a idiot

you’d see the Clippers cap situation is no bueno thanks to Olshey, Foye and Gomes.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 31, 2011 6:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Dude, quit harping on Neil.

Everyone screamed off with his head for signing 10th man Brian Cook. I hated Cookie, but he’s proven solid.

And what’s your take on the Diogu signing??

"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.

by Gordon for President on Jan 31, 2011 6:12 PM PST up reply actions  

Liked it

I knew about as much as anyone (who commented anyways) about Diogu when the signing happened. But I’m not worried about our minimum salaried signings as much as I am with the key rotation players the Clippers should be signing/pursuing.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 31, 2011 6:14 PM PST up reply actions  

Funny how blogs attract complete losers such as this guy

He spends every single day bashing the Clippers. Every single day. Even though he knows nothing about the game of basketball.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jan 31, 2011 6:16 PM PST up reply actions  

Let's have a poll then

you know nothing about basketball. Where’s that x’s and o’s presentation by the way. I’m dying to see it since you’re such an expert.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 31, 2011 6:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Can't you just get lost?

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jan 31, 2011 6:18 PM PST up reply actions  

You first

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 31, 2011 6:19 PM PST up reply actions  

and that presentation

you are a week late.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 31, 2011 6:19 PM PST up reply actions  

We can?

Trading Gomes is tough, he’s not cheap and he sucks. We’d have to find a team with cap space to take back Foye for nothing to create cap space.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 31, 2011 6:10 PM PST up reply actions  

If Foye continues his play like this, is stock will rise.

Both Rashard Lewis and Gilbert Arenas were dealt, anyone is tradeable. Stop being so worried.

"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.

by Gordon for President on Jan 31, 2011 6:11 PM PST up reply actions  

The guys you mentioned were traded

in fact I just suggested the Clippers trade Foye for Childress didn’t I? But if you want cap space you have a limited about of partners. It would be like how the Clippers acquired Rasual Butler from the Hornets.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 31, 2011 6:15 PM PST up reply actions  

amount

not about.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 31, 2011 6:15 PM PST up reply actions  

Childress has lost it after leaving for Greece, plus he's got a hefty contract

Loved him before he left, but I feel like he hasn’t liven up to his expectations because he didn’t develop properly in the European system.

He’s also on lock for about $7 mill/year until 2015 when he turns 32. You guys will hate him as much as you hate Gomes especially since he’ll be making more money for a lot longer at an older age.

Staples Center = The Griffin Observatory

by TheEricGordonShow on Jan 31, 2011 5:51 PM PST reply actions  

About the same age

Childress is a year younger but has a contract 2 years longer (assuming Childress exercises his 5th year option). He hasn’t lived up to expectations because of the SF conundrum in Phoenix, not because of a lack of production per minute.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 31, 2011 5:54 PM PST up reply actions  

omg

This Josh Childress conversation is idiotic.

by NBAFAN8 on Jan 31, 2011 10:38 PM PST up reply actions  

Good write-up

It’s hard to really blame the FO for passing on these two as I’m not sure how much interest they really gathered in the market. No one had seen Childress play in a couple of years, and Sessions was coming off a particularly terrible year (and wasn’t a FA anyhow). It seemed to me that both the Cavs and Suns were grabbing at straws to fill the void of their lost superstars, hence the lack of any hesitation in signing these guys. The Clippers were playing it safe, it seems, but obviously aimed too low.

Blake Show > Lake Show

by Erik O on Jan 31, 2011 5:54 PM PST reply actions  

Childress

was ranked as the 10 or 11th highest FA in the off-season by ESPN and many other publications. He is well known for among other things being the first significant US player to go overseas. Remember the Redeem Team all talked about signing a net income contract themselves when they were in Beijing.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 31, 2011 5:59 PM PST up reply actions  

I appreciate the post, very well organized.

Over the next 5 years, Suns will be paying him: $5.8M, $6.3M, $6.7M, $7.1M, $7.6M. That is above average indeed and a long time commitment. I think most of us would agree that given a choice between the Suns or Clips for the same $$$, he would have picked the Suns. In reality, the Clips would have had to bid more to legitimately land him. At these figures (or more) I’m not convinced he’s the guy for the long term…

by banandy on Jan 31, 2011 6:10 PM PST reply actions  

Good thing the Clips can trade for him now

so no longer have to pay the dreaded Clipper premium. Of course the Suns may realize that they will lose Carter and maybe even Grant Hill this summer so they could use him next year.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 31, 2011 6:12 PM PST up reply actions  

The premium is evaporating - wake up

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jan 31, 2011 6:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Heh

I’m being sarcastic about any such premium. And when the team signs free agents that are worth signing then we can talk. Signing tweeners for multi-year deals is bad enough but what kind of idiot goes so far as to praise them for doing so?

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 31, 2011 6:19 PM PST up reply actions  

In the past with Lurch it was a reality

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jan 31, 2011 6:20 PM PST up reply actions  

So...

we go from overpaying all-stars to overpaying role players. Cool story bro.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 31, 2011 6:21 PM PST up reply actions  

Seems to me that BD hasn't really done all that well here under the previous regime

Not a good fit

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jan 31, 2011 6:25 PM PST up reply actions  

He was actually better

last year than this year. Forgot he was being considered as an all-star last year already? He’s still easily the most notable signing. Just look at the archives, it was all campfires and songs at time.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 31, 2011 6:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Whatever you say

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jan 31, 2011 6:34 PM PST up reply actions  

Don't they have to sign someone first for this to even begin to prove to be true?

With Gomes and Foye, 2 guys who shouldn’t get more than the minimum, they paid a hefty premium.

Foye should have to pay the Clippers to be on the team.

by John R on Jan 31, 2011 6:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Foye should have to pay the Clippers to be on the team.

LOL, At least there’s one thing we can agree on.

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.

by boltsfan21 on Jan 31, 2011 6:57 PM PST up reply actions  

Yep - just like they did for Baron

They can do better. Much better.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jan 31, 2011 6:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Same with Gomes and Foye

they can do much better.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 31, 2011 6:20 PM PST up reply actions  

They are much less expensive then what you are running around screaming that the Clippers just MUST do

How about just shutting up for a while?

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jan 31, 2011 6:21 PM PST up reply actions  

I'll make a deal

stop kissing the FO ass and I’ll stop talking crap about them. See who can hold out longer.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 31, 2011 6:22 PM PST up reply actions  

I'll make you a deal - stop being an idiot and I will stop pointing it out

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jan 31, 2011 6:24 PM PST up reply actions  

Nice comeback

so no deal huh? I mean as much as I would miss your insightful “I like what the direction of the team” comment daily its a bit stale.

Cmon Jax, Foye and Gomes were this years haul. You really want to defend that? Even YOU are better than that.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 31, 2011 6:27 PM PST up reply actions  

You misunderstand my position

I’m giving them the benefit of the doubt and am very encouraged as to the direction of the team.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jan 31, 2011 6:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Your life as a Clippers fan must be one hell of a good time :-)

Why can’t you just enjoy what the team is doing?

They are young, exciting, learning how to win…etc, etc…

by NBAFAN8 on Jan 31, 2011 10:43 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm enjoying it

Blake Griffin is amazing. DJ and EJ have been great too. I’m giving my my support at games. If you even pay attention to what Jax says he likes thanking Olshey some reason for this and not the guys who are actually playing.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 31, 2011 11:47 PM PST up reply actions  

The $2M million dollar questions are

What are you waiting for?

When will the next better window to sign a difference maker be?

What do you need the difference between Sessions + Childress – Foye – Gomes for?

What is that $2M bookmarked to do? They sat on more than that…

by John R on Jan 31, 2011 6:46 PM PST up reply actions  

Clips have less than the MLE to offer them

So will have to get lucky and hope they aren’t after money or a ring.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 31, 2011 11:48 PM PST up reply actions  

not just $2M...more like $3M+ and 2 yrs extra commitment

My $0 question is assuming the Clips play at full strength and optimize their rotations – can this team make the playoffs? Kaman’s numbers have been horrible this season, but we all know he can contribute meaningfully.

As is, I firmly believe this team will make the playoffs next year with minimal off-season changes (i.e. resign DJ). Even with Foye/Gomes…do you disagree? I think this is the real question we should all be discussing (not just whether Sessions = playoffs).

by banandy on Feb 1, 2011 8:47 AM PST up reply actions  

Those numbers are just plain stupid for a guy like Childress

If the Clippers made a trade for Childress they would be taking a HUGE gamble.

In my opinion, Childress will be out of the league before his contract runs out.

by NBAFAN8 on Jan 31, 2011 10:40 PM PST up reply actions  

Wrong about that

he’s a very valuable player.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 31, 2011 11:55 PM PST up reply actions  

And that opinion is based on what?

What in John R’s detailed post do you disagree with besides the conclusions?

by ClipCat on Feb 1, 2011 8:55 AM PST up reply actions  

Why is there still love for this guy?

Arguably better than Gomes, but by how much really? Childress isn’t a difference maker. This is precisely why you never give mediocre players long term contracts. Don’t bail out the Suns for panicking after Amare walked.

by hip2clip on Jan 31, 2011 6:36 PM PST reply actions  

he is much better

but he is locked for 4 years and there is a new cba, and we need to resign ej,griffin,jordan. i would rather stay put and make a run at deron or cp3 in 2012 would only trade for someone like curry.

by XXDC2XX on Jan 31, 2011 7:12 PM PST up reply actions  

He's better at some things, worse at others

But the key issue is – an isue not addressed by the post – is whether our money is best spent on JChill or someone else. Is his skill-set the best available for this team? What does this team really need? The answer has to do with an analysis of the type of offense and defense run by the Clippers, the personnel of the team, etc.

I don’t think he’s the best fit, particularly at his cost.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jan 31, 2011 7:16 PM PST up reply actions  

But all the money wasn't spent on someone else.

Instead, money was spent on low cost options, and some of it was saved and became profits. We saw the same pattern when Camby was traded, and the Clippers chose financial considerations over anything that improved the team. That may be an attractive plan if we were stockholders in the Clippers, but it’s not so good for us as fans who want to see management committed to building the best team it can.

As the original post lays out in great detail, Childress has been a productive player when he’s gotten minutes. I haven’t seen anything from him that would make me think he wouldn’t be a strong starter on the Clippers, and Aminu’s surprising 3 point shooting ability makes him an even better fit. It’s not even clear to me that Childress wouldn’t adjust his game to help spread the floor more than he’s done in Phoenix, where most of the team shoots 3’s.

I don’t know if the Suns want to trade Childress or are holding him in reserve for next year. But if the Clippers could take a mulligan on free agency and trade Gomes for Childress, I’d celebrate. I’m very happy with the players the Clippers have, but Childress would improve the team.

by ClipCat on Feb 1, 2011 8:54 AM PST up reply actions  

As I've said

He’s not a particularly good fit for this team at SF and he’s expensive. IMO.

I’d rather spend the money on an SF that could help us more. I don’t agree that overpaying last summer for JChill was the best option to us.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 1, 2011 9:15 AM PST up reply actions  

You seriously would have spent $7M per year for five years

on a guy who cannnot spread the floor to be the starting SF on a team that features two inside big men? Potential recipe for disaster. You can’t just look at overall PER type stats in a vacumn.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 1, 2011 9:17 AM PST up reply actions  

As I said, I'd gladly trade for him now

It’s not clear to me at all that Childress can’t help spread the floor. In Phoenix he’s playing with a team full of perimeter oriented players and a fairly weak frontcourt. So he’s filling in the holes and focusing on rebounding, defense and interior scoring. That’s what Phoenix needs from him now.

He’s been a versatile player over the course of his career, and I doubt he suddenly forgot how to shoot 3’s. On a Clipper team that needs help on the perimeter, he likely would play a different role than he does for the Suns.

I believed Childress was worth the contract he signed. He was always my top choice (after LeBron) for free agency. I’d gladly take him now so long as Gomes, who would become redundant, was part of the trade. However, I’d be surprised if Phoenix really wants to dump him. He’s fit in well, played his role without complaining, and they likely expect him to play a larger role over the course of his contract.

by ClipCat on Feb 1, 2011 9:36 AM PST up reply actions  

He's not a good three point shooter

I respect youir opinion. I just disagree with you. Gomes is a better three point shooter and far less expensive.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 1, 2011 9:43 AM PST up reply actions  

I agree Childress isn’t a “good” 3 PT shooter, but based on his career, he’s at least an adequate one. Gomes is definitely less expensive though I think that’s really only a basketball consideration if the team is willing to use its cap space.

But if Childress is a tick behind Gomes at 3 point shooting, he’s better at everything else. That versatility would be especially useful when Aminu is ready to take over as the starting small forward.

I respect your opinion, too. I’m just trying to understand why you changed your mind about Childress. It seems the dropoff in 3 point shooting is the key issue for you, and I’ll agree that my belief that Childress could play a more perimeter oriented game is an opinion and not proven fact.

by ClipCat on Feb 1, 2011 10:04 AM PST up reply actions  

I changed my mind about JChill

After seeing the team play together and particularly seeing how BG plays and the rise of DJ. I would definitely agree with you that J Chill would be a better option if Kaman were the starting center since he shoots 18 footers routinely, freeing up the inside for JChill. But DJ and BG are both pretty much inside players at this point. IMO we need a perimeter player to help free them up. Gomes does a pretty good job at that now. J Chill’s skill set would be better coming off the bench for the Clips and IMO he’s far too expensive for that.

More generally, the arguments here about how horrible Foye and Gomes supposedly are are and how we would be a “playoff” team with JChill and Sessions being made primarily by those loudmouths on this site who have an ax to grind against the current FO because they liked the way things were under the previous regime. It’s pretty obvious.

Taking generalist PER type stats and trying to use those to ram down our throats marginal players like JChill and Sessions – certainly ok players generally – but who are not particularly good fits here given the constitution of our team – is not a good way to determine the personnel of a team. The FO is in a far better position to make such determinations then fans looking at generalist stats.

Having said that, I’m giving the benefit of the doubt to the FO here. I do think that someone like AI2 or perhaps Granger would be good fits. But they come with a price tag and I wonder whether it would be best to focus on the three main players and just put roll players around them.

Which brings me to my main long term concern – and that is how to replace BD.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 1, 2011 10:24 AM PST up reply actions  

I'd take J Chill to come off the bench with Kaman

But question whether we need to spend that much money for someone to fill that role?

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 1, 2011 10:32 AM PST up reply actions  

BG is alwasy hanging out around the 3 point line though. I was actually looking for it last night, but Aminu basically does what Childress would do. Griffin goes to set the high screen and Aminu fills in down low to get the rebound. He’ll clear out once Griffin is looking to get low post position.

by Michael White on Feb 1, 2011 10:42 AM PST up reply actions  

Aminu doesn't start and doesn't cost $7M / year for five years

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 1, 2011 10:50 AM PST up reply actions  

Fine, but I’m just talking about the mechanics of how Childress would work.

And as others have said, assuming Childress normalized to his historical 3p% levels he’d still be enough of a threat to keep the defense honest on the outside for when BG is truly ISO’d in the low post but we haven’t seen a lot of that from BG/VDN.

Interestingly, Aminu is actually a very good offensive rebounder in his own right. On the list I posted yesterday Childress would have been the 2nd best offensive rebounder at SF. Currently, Aminu is 6th best.

by Michael White on Feb 1, 2011 10:59 AM PST up reply actions  

I guess we just disagree with how best to spend our cash

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 1, 2011 11:20 AM PST up reply actions  

Why not just keep AFA then and trade Gomes and another

for a better shooter. AFA has a chance to replicate JChill.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 1, 2011 11:24 AM PST up reply actions  

Oh, I’m definitely cool with that. And I think you are on point too, if having a shooter is paramount, Gomes really isn’t even good enough at it to hit what you’re looking for.

by Michael White on Feb 1, 2011 11:32 AM PST up reply actions  

See, always bringing up the old regime

I personally was a Dunleavy fan. His brand of basketball was boring. Glad he’s out as coach. Didn’t mind him so much as GM. Made some bold moves that no previous (or subsequent) Clippers GMs made. But you can continue with that red herring if you wish.

Your problem is that you only focus on the offensive side of the ball. Every argument has to do with spreading the floor. Listen to the players tell you what makes a team successful. Defense.

It reveals that your understanding of the game is very elementary. Scoring, ppg, etc. That seems to be your focus. Hence, your thinking that Granger is a good fit. Why? Because he can score, I suppose.

AI2? He is a SG. Are you not pleased with Eric Gordon?

Replacing Baron Davis is not the long term concern for this team. With BD 16-17. Without BD. 3-11 I don’t see a lot of available PGs on the landscape right now, though a DWill or CP3 may find the idea of playing with Blake and DJ exciting.

Foye and Gomes have played well in spots. At best, both should be coming off the bench. For $4M per year.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 1, 2011 11:08 AM PST up reply actions  

Gomes is a pretty good defender

Otherwise we can just agree to disagree

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 1, 2011 11:22 AM PST up reply actions  

I don't know what you are basing that on

I wish he were. I like Gomes. Nice kid, plays hard. Happy to have him on the team.

Upgrade needed.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Feb 1, 2011 11:46 AM PST up reply actions  

I have been wondering this as well since last summer.

I thought I was a huge Eric Gordon fan, but this love for Josh Childress has been taken to a new level, lol.

by NBAFAN8 on Jan 31, 2011 10:44 PM PST up reply actions  

love for gordon is easy to understand

he is really good and plays for your team, childress on the other hand is neither

by XXDC2XX on Feb 1, 2011 9:36 AM PST up reply actions  

Two questions on this analysis:

1) “injuries to Davis and Kaman would increase wins”. How do injuries increase wins? That’s assuming that the replacements perform better, and that the 3rd string perform better than the 2nd stringers in the bench roles. I understand some will argue the first part, but it’s mostly the second part (3rd stringers being promoted) that concerns me. Thinning out the bench is never a desirable position.

2) “Gomes’ TS% is awful” What is Childress’ TS%

by Thretch on Jan 31, 2011 7:26 PM PST reply actions  

In his scenario

the more PT Sessions and DJ get the better off the Clippers are (though I think its offset by how poorly Bledsoe and Collins would do backing them up).

Childress Career/Season TS%: .596/.553
Gomes Career/Season TS%: .530/.509

Not close.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 31, 2011 11:52 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah…..I’m not sure how Sessions ranking in the other post (Win shares? I forget what it’s called) is so high…..I took a look and in the wins he only played more than half a game once while he has been racking up more minutes in the 21 game losing streak.

I like Sessions as well but these numbers give me more questions than answers.

by sqiuggy on Feb 1, 2011 3:15 AM PST up reply actions  

The Cavs

losing streak really picked up once they lost their best player (Varejao). Course their last win was on Dec 18… and they lost 10 games before that. After starting off the season a respectable 7-9 (how exciting would this season be if the Clippers did that?) they have since gone 1-31 (that 1-13 start looks better now). This seasons Cavs has very little talent left, at least last years Nets had a few notable players.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 1, 2011 3:33 AM PST up reply actions  

Are the other players factored in to a players rating? Foye put up a couple of 20 point games in the last two wins without Eric Gordon…….does his rating go up?

Foye seems to be a player that needs a lot of minutes in a game to be a factor….he doesn’t really make a difference in 15 minutes (at least not a positive one).

I’m not trying to say that Sessions is to blame for the 21 game losing streak, his stats have been up and down but it doesn’t look like anything more than a bad team struggling more than one guy.

Has he ever played for a team that broke .500 in win percentage?

by sqiuggy on Feb 1, 2011 4:40 AM PST up reply actions  

You don't know that

You have no idea how he’d fit in with this team and your statement is pure conjecture. Your passionate defense of anything your buddy John R says is duly noted.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 1, 2011 6:39 AM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Yawn

that’s the point isn’t it? Trying to predict how a player would fit in. We already know how well Gomes fits in… I’ll give you a hint, not well.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 1, 2011 1:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Great post... but I'm still filled with questions

Tied for first: Was JChill willing to sign only if he was traded to Phoenix? And, Doesn’t per-36 suffer distortions when the sample size is small?

If you only play very limited minutes, then most likely you’re only going up against the opposition’s 2nd unit and worse. It’s gotta be shaky to say what he might do as a starter.

And coming in third place: At the moment, JChill is stuck in the depth charts behind this guy and that guy. Mind you, I have nothing invested in any of the above debates… This just raises some big ol’ red flags.

"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT

by SilverClip on Jan 31, 2011 7:37 PM PST reply actions  

Well

John R is giving the benefit of the doubt to the small size to Josh Childress small sample size (hence Bad Josh). His career numbers are WAY better than this years.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 31, 2011 11:53 PM PST up reply actions  

I hear ya

Like Foye, I’ve been amazed that Childress is having such a hard time of it. Maybe there’s a injury involved. But one argument I don’t buy is that he’s a good wing on a team with too many very good wings. Pietrus is not that good… they sometimes give Dudley starters minutes and avoid the two of them altogether. Dudley, meanwhile, is supposed to be a tweener between the 3 and 4. He’s not a good ball handler and, really, he’s not that great a player. Childress ought to be able to squeeze in somewhere. You know, I’ve seen him play once or twice this season, and I don’t remember anything. He blended into the background.

"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT

by SilverClip on Feb 1, 2011 7:03 AM PST up reply actions  

Richardson, Dudley and Hill all have higher WP/48 than Childress (and all 4 have higher WP/48 than LAC small forwards.)

by Michael White on Feb 1, 2011 8:25 AM PST up reply actions  

yes but what about their X120?

Oh, there is no X120? Well there is always next season … . Whatever statistic float your boat =)

Anyway: we are arguing about the 4th best wing on a team that won’t get into the play-offs … . That would cure all our problems? Unlikely…

by BelgianClipper on Feb 1, 2011 8:49 AM PST up reply actions  

I don't know why people are so absolutist about this stuff

Statistics show that Childress would be the best SF on the Clippers and the fact that PHO happens to have 3 better SFs it doesn’t mean Childress wouldn’t be good for our favorite team.

Guys like Childress and Sessions would make the team better. It doesn’t mean that it will cure all our problems and the team will start winning championships.

My takeaway from the fanpost is that there is a good SF in Phoenix who happens to be behind 3 other SFs which makes him an attractive trade target.

by Michael White on Feb 1, 2011 9:00 AM PST up reply actions  

Again, I'm not sure I understand why he would help our team very much as currently constituted

Particularly given the cost.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 1, 2011 9:13 AM PST up reply actions  

Yes but you can't deny there is a red flag

Childress has played in Europe for 2 seasons and has been less then spectacular since his return.

What should we give up for him? Seems to be a bit far-fetched to just assume that they would just take Gomes or Foye of our hands. Neither player really would improve their roster in short/long term.

And I would imagine that other teams would also be inclined to give him some thoughts.

He probably would be an upgrade over Gomes but at what price?

by BelgianClipper on Feb 1, 2011 9:22 AM PST up reply actions  

Gomes, Butler/Rhino, and Bledsoe/2011 1st Round Pick

That would be my best offer, and Phoenix might take it depending on how they feel about Childress. It’s easy to point out what Childress hasn’t done. But it’s also worth considering that Phoenix might appreciate a guy willing to fit into a less glamorous role when needed without complaining, and they may see him as a starter next season since Vince Carter, Grant Hill and Pietrus may all be gone.

by ClipCat on Feb 1, 2011 9:48 AM PST up reply actions  

No way would I do that trade

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 1, 2011 10:28 AM PST up reply actions  

This is a guy who's never been a starter in the league being paid $7 M / year for five years?

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 1, 2011 10:33 AM PST up reply actions  

Nothing wrong with paying a player that kind of money if he’s the first or second best player off the bench, which describes Childress’s career pretty well. Lots of good teams (and quite a few bad ones, too) do this, and the Clips would use him as a starter at least until Aminu is ready.

In the deal I proposed, the Clips would want to get rid of Gomes. As a 3rd string SG, Butler is no great loss, and Diogu makes Rhino expendable. The only thing of value the Clips would be giving up is Bledsoe or the pick, neither of which is likely to become a better player than Childress. I don’t think it’s a bad deal if you view Childress as a slightly above average starting SF or a top reserve.

by ClipCat on Feb 1, 2011 12:42 PM PST up reply actions  

I could definitely be talked into this.

by Michael White on Feb 1, 2011 12:53 PM PST up reply actions  

Same

Bledsoe’s value goes down next year if he doesn’t show big improvement. Right now he still has the “new” label.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 1, 2011 1:25 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm pictured a depth chart as follows

SG: Carter, Childress
SF: Hill, Dudley

Pietrus’s numbers are underwhelming, and if Childress is who we think he is, then he ought to be able to win some minutes.

Maybe Childress really isn’t all that good… but still better than our SFs. In that case, I wouldn’t want to spend that much more money for such a marginal upgrade. It’s a cost-benefit thing.

In a context such as this, I think we should be fairly skeptical of WP figures. The Sun’s coaches see Childress practice all the time, and the guy hasn’t won out over Pietrus. I suspect that he’s lost a step.

"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT

by SilverClip on Feb 1, 2011 11:24 AM PST up reply actions  

Dudley

is a 2 and 3, not a 3 and 4. He started at SG after their big trade where J Rich was leaving town and they were waiting on VC to clear physicals.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 1, 2011 1:27 PM PST up reply actions  

Dudley’s pretty versatile. He played a lot of PF in Charlotte before being traded to Phoenix. Unfortunately that was because Charlotte didn’t have much at PF in those days. Sean May was fat and injured. Juwan Howard was washed up. Gerald Wallace kept getting hurt and worn down trying to play out of position. Dudley was far from an ideal PF, but he tried hard and was a fan favorite.

by ClipCat on Feb 1, 2011 1:47 PM PST up reply actions  

Was he bigger then?

looks pretty small even for a SF. According to 82games he’s only played 4% of his minutes at the PF spot this year. Most were at SF and a quarter of it at SG.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 1, 2011 1:55 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't think so

He definitely was a small PF and struggled against bigger players, but he was at least better than Juwan Howard and Sean May. Gerald Wallace used to play quite a bit of PF, too, but that was not a good situation either. And so the Bobcats traded Dudley and Richardson for Boris Diaw and Rajah Bell. I don’t remember Dudley ever playing SG in Charlotte, and he wasn’t nearly the shooter then that he has become in Phoenix.

by ClipCat on Feb 1, 2011 3:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Not willing to give the benefit of the doubt

With Childress, there is only doubt. If the guy really had potential to make Phoenix better, Gentry and Nash are experienced enough to see it. And Phoenix is motivated to maximize this year (their on the cusp of the playoffs). So what is holding Childress back? Chemistry with the team? Chemistry with coach or Nash? They didn’t sign him to be a 3rd stringer … so what are they seeing now that they didn’t know over the summer.

There’s just more evidence that suggests that Bad Josh really is Current Josh. And Future Josh more likely resembles Current Josh.

by Thretch on Feb 1, 2011 8:24 AM PST up reply actions  

The fact that there are 3 better small forwards on the team.

by Michael White on Feb 1, 2011 8:26 AM PST up reply actions  

A little quibble

Phoenix started the season with three SF’s better than Childress and maybe even four if you count Richardson, Turkoglu, Hill and Dudley all as SF’s. But now that Richardson and Turk are gone, a good case can be made (as shown in the original post) that Childress is playing better than Carter and Pietrus. But as a team, Phoenix probably has to stick with Carter as a starter and Childress in reserve in order to keep Carter motivated. It’s worth noting that Childress played a consistant role in the rotation until he got hurt in December, and he seems to have reestablished himself in the rotation over the last few games.

by ClipCat on Feb 1, 2011 10:23 AM PST up reply actions  

I dunno

I’m starting to get suspicious. Rather than “reestablishing himself in the rotation over the last few games,” what I’m seeing is DNPs in 8 of the last 9 games:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=2373

It’s one thing to argue that guy’s minutes are being reduced because better players are ahead of him, but quite another for a guy on a 5yr/$35MM deal to be getting no burn whatsoever.

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.

by boltsfan21 on Feb 1, 2011 6:16 PM PST up reply actions  

Numbers game

Carter makes 17 million, Dudley signed a extension for 5 years 22 million and Pietrus makes 5.3 million so no matter what someone pricey is sitting on the bench. They should be looking to trade one of these guys (Maybe not Carter since his contract is only partially guaranteed next season) to cost down on cost and redundancy.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 1, 2011 6:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Chuckles willl argue anything (pathetically)

The best players of the bunch are playing. Period.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 1, 2011 6:24 PM PST up reply actions  

Thanks for playing

now go back to your coloring book.

They are playing the better SFs, did you not read John R’s post? It still doesn’t mean Childress isn’t better than Gomes.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 1, 2011 6:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Ok, Mr. "we should have re-signed Steve Blake"

Of course, you’re arguing out of both sides of your mouth.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 1, 2011 6:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Actually I suggested the team should have signed and traded Blake

to the Lakers for Sasha, cash and the 1st round pick (what the Nets got). Then the Clips wouldn’t have to resign Rasual and they got a asset out of it. Same cost too.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 2, 2011 4:02 PM PST up reply actions  

C'mon

8 DNPs in 9 games. There’s really no good way to spin that.

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.

by boltsfan21 on Feb 1, 2011 6:31 PM PST up reply actions  

Oh no, let's sign the guy based on that - $7M / yr for 5 years

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 1, 2011 6:38 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah I missed the DNP's

Didn’t look close enough at the dates in Basketball Reference. So Childress was getting established in the rotation and even starting three games while Grant Hill was out and now nothing. Also interesting that Pietrus has several DNP’s in the same stretch. Are the GM and Coach talking in Phoenix?

by ClipCat on Feb 1, 2011 8:52 PM PST up reply actions  

Haha good question

Looks like Hill, Carter, and Dudley are getting nearly all of the minutes at the 2 and 3, with table scraps for Pietrus and nothing left over for Childress. Sure seems like Gentry isn’t impressed, since he’s given Childress a few chances but keeps sticking him right back on the pine. I’m torn between thinking he’d be worth making a run for on the gotta-be-better-than-Gomes theory and being a little worried about committing that kind of money for 5 years to a guy who can’t buy himself 10-15 minutes a night for a sub-.500 team.

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.

by boltsfan21 on Feb 2, 2011 1:18 AM PST up reply actions  

As opposed to the guy...

who plays 29 mpg on a .400 team who’s only competition is Rasual Butler and a rookie SF who played PF in college? Just because Gomes gets PT on a team devoid of credible SFs and a Childress is on a team with too many SFs is hardly convincing case either way.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 2, 2011 3:55 PM PST up reply actions  

Arguing just to argue?

I said “I’m torn,” and also said he’s “gotta be better than Gomes.” Not sure I have a strong opinion one way or another. But for the record, just because he’s better than Gomes doesn’t necessarily mean he’s worth using up an asset to trade for him AND tying up $7MM of cap space a year for the next 4 years. There may be other just as good (or better) SFs available in the offseason for less.

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.

by boltsfan21 on Feb 2, 2011 7:20 PM PST up reply actions  

I thought the hypothetical

was swapping out Gomes for Childress either through a trade or having signed him in FA. Childress is just 27 with no serious injury history so he should be in his athletic prime for most of his current contract.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 2, 2011 10:55 PM PST up reply actions  

and there's always someone better

but until you field a roster of Wade, Paul, Howard, Blake and Lebron that pretty much holds true.

There’s a list of at least 10 SFs that should be available during the deadline and the Clippers should obviously checking them all out.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 2, 2011 10:57 PM PST up reply actions  

Gentry

said he wanted to shorten his rotation. So he did. Childress played pretty well as a starter filling in for Hill so he can still play.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 2, 2011 3:56 PM PST up reply actions  

Define "pretty well"

Looking at the game logs, I see starts in 2 games when Hill was out:

In the first one he scored 5 points on 2-6 shooting from the field, including 0-1 from 3-pt range, and went 1-4 from the line, with 5 boards, 2 assists, and 2 turnovers in 26 mins of a game in which the Suns were routed by Denver.

In the other he scored 2 points on 1-4 shooting from the field, including an 0-3 effort from behind the arc, with 4 boards, 1 assist, and 2 turnovers in 21 mins of an OT win at home against Jersey. His plus-minus was -12, while Carter and Dudley were both +15.

Gentry was apparently so impressed by the performances that he sat Childress for 8 of the next 9 games.

Look, I get it, you like him, and of course you’re never wrong. But as you’re always asking of Jax, you might want to actually do some research before posting patently wrong info like this. Kinda sounds like you were just making stuff up to “prove” your point, given that it wasn’t, you know, actually true.

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.

by boltsfan21 on Feb 2, 2011 7:40 PM PST up reply actions  

Oops

I was referring to the games he played when the Suns were short handed from the J Rich trade, not filling in for Hill.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201012190OKC.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201012200SAS.html

He actually started 3 games for Hill. Collective in 58 minutes he shot 4-11 from the field, 2-6 from the charity stripe for 10 points, grabbed 13 (6 of them offensive) rebounds, had 3 assists and committed 5 turnovers. On a per 36 minute basis thats… 6.25 points, 8 rebounds, 2 ast, and 3.125 turnovers. Nothing special but that’s still as productive than Gomes (per 36) on the year (9.7 points, 4.6 rebounds, 2.1 assists, 1 turnover).

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 2, 2011 10:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Then why hasn't Phoenix traded him?

If they have such a glut of desireable SFs, they would have traded one of them for someone who CAN play a few minutes. My point is that NBA FO’s are more knowledgeable about day-to-day player affairs than we are. If all this banter was true, Phoenix would have known about it for much longer than we have.

by Thretch on Feb 1, 2011 2:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Who says they haven't been offered something for Childress?

Lots of sharks out there. Would you want Gomes? Or Carroll? The Suns could just eat his contract this year and let Carter and Hill leave (and trade Nash). Their glut of SFs will solve itself in 5 months.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 1, 2011 3:38 PM PST up reply actions  

Great post

Well-researched and explained.

by Michael White on Feb 1, 2011 8:24 AM PST reply actions  

John R has certainly changed

I will give him that. During the previous regime he would routinely defend strange lineups (q Ross over maggette for example) by arguing that any NBA player can duplicate the production of anyone else. After we repeatedly expained that it doesn’t work like that and that there are different stats out there which measure individual performance, at least his arguments are based on something reasonable. Unfortunately he’s latched onto a flawed system and doesn’t really understand those flaws. And he doesnt really understand the game That’s why you get the strident nonsensical jchill will lead us to the promise land bs. Oh well at least it makes for argument.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 1, 2011 8:38 AM PST via mobile reply actions  

But it's the Clippers

Therefore they had to OVERPAY to get mid level talent to come here before BG began playing games, but now after his emergence, EJ, DJ ,ad the resurgence of BD that may not be the case for mid level talent and possibly just better than mid level. Alas it’s STILL the Clippers and the Don still owns this team so he will ALWAYS overpay for bad and NEVER pony it up for the good!

by BGE32 on Feb 1, 2011 8:53 AM PST reply actions  

That is exactly right

And one of the reasons why I believe they weren’t going to run like chickens with their heads cut off to overpay for free agents last summer. Smart move to wait IMO.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 1, 2011 9:11 AM PST up reply actions  

Foye and Gomes each have had their issues

Foye had that injury and a team that didn’t exactly had a bright start. You can’t really deny he has stepped up to the plate since EJ got injured.

SP has also pointed towards the big difference in shooting% for Gomes at home vs on the road. That seems to point towards some kind of mental issue.

In the short term there doesn’t seem to be a pressing need to retool the roster. Unless some unbelievable deals are possible we should stay put.

by BelgianClipper on Feb 1, 2011 9:08 AM PST reply actions  

all things considered Gomes>>>>>>Childress

And I would base this solely on the fact that Gomes has two years and 8 million left on his deal. Childress has 4 years and roughly 27.5 million. Is Childress really a $20 million upgrade over Gomes?

by maxzingo on Feb 2, 2011 8:06 AM PST reply actions  

That's the question

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Feb 2, 2011 10:42 AM PST up reply actions  

Not properly phrased

the question is Childress worth 7 million more over these 3 seasons (this season included) than Gomes?

The 2nd question is Childress worth 14.4 million for 2 seasons in 2013-2015.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 2, 2011 4:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Not in most opinions

he’s worth 2 million more a season than Gomes (unless you have a team like the Suns where you don’t play him). Maybe a No on the last 2 years when he’ll turn 30. But definitely worth the difference over Gomes these next 2.5 years.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 2, 2011 5:21 PM PST up reply actions  

what about Aminu

I’d buy that argument if we didn’t draft our future small forward with our lottery pick this year. If Aminu pans out your looking at spending quite a bit of cap space (probably limited with a new CBA) on a back up forward who’s locked in for the next 4 years.

by maxzingo on Feb 2, 2011 5:49 PM PST up reply actions  

You need bench players

If you follow the team breakdown per quarter the first quarter is by far the best quarter for the Clippers but once the 2nd team comes in it gets ugly. Worst case Aminu turns out to be a bust and the Clippers have a serviceable starter. Best case Aminu becomes good and you have Childress providing quality minutes off the bench and/or a movable trade piece. You can’t worry about Aminu being blocked by another player, if he deserves to play then he’ll get his minutes eventually. NBA teams just aren’t that deep, you will get a chance to play even if you back up a stud (see Marcin Gortat, Darren Collison, Wesley Matthews). Look at the Clippers rosters in recent years, how many emergency pickups end up getting significant minutes (Diogu, Fred Jones etc etc).

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Feb 2, 2011 10:53 PM PST up reply actions  

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