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Around SBN: Why Hockey Fans Should Root For Devils Vs. Kings

He says a lot in those tweets. A corollary seems to be that if a small market team was going to eliminate a worse Lakers or Celtics team, some players feel like that team should roll over and let the big market team through?

7 months ago Tiny John R 29 comments 0 recs  | 

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I don't know why I'm letting myself be drawn into this, but Battier has something interesting to say...

“At this point the entire lockout hinges on the issues of competitive balance. Making the (relative) less desirable places to sign as a free agent, more lucrative. Would our fans watch Milwaukee and Portland in the NBA finals (both with all-stars)? Or would a less star studded Laker/Celtic Finals still be a larger draw?”

This is an interesting question, and a valid one. For some reason John R seems obsessed with bending any statement to his own point of view. A valid point of view, certainly, but please, John, the current labor situation demands binocular vision. Open the other eye.

by John Raffo on Nov 11, 2011 8:27 AM PST reply actions  

What point of view is that?

You take this stuff so personally.

Did you read the following tweet?

If the point of view is valid and supported by the linked words, why are you so interested in enforcing ideological purity?

(Tweets don’t have titles so I felt good making one up this time? No?)

by John R on Nov 11, 2011 8:35 AM PST up reply actions  

Yechh... I hate that "why do you take it personally crap"...

Please, your “Players Demand Super Teams” is agit-prop and you know it.
But… okay, for some reason I can’t access Battier’s tweets which seem thoughtful, valid, and have only tangential connection to your PDST campaign.
Do you consider truth in advertising, ideological purity? Your POV is facile. It’s beneath you. (There, now I’ve returned the condescension, happy?)

by John Raffo on Nov 11, 2011 9:08 AM PST up reply actions  

Agit-prop to what end?

Advertising? To whom am I selling what? I literally have no skin in this game. No dog in the fight. What do you see as my objective? What could I possibly gain? What is even my point of view?

Adande at True Hoop this morning: John R is correct. The players are, somewhat rationally, taking a stand that is anti-competitive balance. As always, my crime is being two days ahead of the curve.

by John R on Nov 11, 2011 10:39 AM PST up reply actions  

So disingenuous

The major reason why there is a lack of comnpetitive balance here is the lack of revenue sharing.

Only someone with an anti-player bias would ignore the elephant in the room and pretend that it’s all about the players.

Just sayin

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Nov 11, 2011 11:20 AM PST up reply actions  

The only thing disingenuous here is conflating competitive balance and revenue at all

They have nothing to do with each other. Unless a team eventually is able to acquire so much revenue that it is able to invent a process to clone Lebron, the short supply of tall players will dominate competitive balance.

You are not the only one to do this. The owners have done this, and I do believe disingenuously, to now be able to make it a bargaining point with the players. The players are forced to come out against competitive balance here because it is in their own interest.

If I was representing the players, and assuming I wanted to get a deal done, I would offer to buy all of the remaining points my way for 0.5% of BRI. I would make this offer in public. If you want to sway opinion against the owners you do this and say look we are willing to give up even more for this thing that should be rightfully ours. You generate the tiniest momentary bit of leverage and get the deal.

None of this is bias or opinion. It is fact.

by John R on Nov 11, 2011 11:30 AM PST up reply actions  

Sorry , disagree

If all teams can afford to spend the same amount you have a better shot at competitive balance (unless you have a cheap ass owner like you know who). I would institute a rule with revenue sharing that the money has to be spent on players.

The players are not against competitive balance by arguing for the ability for wealthier teams to pay them with less penalties. It is up to the owners to ensure that all teams can potentially tap into this revenue. Beyond that if players want to take less to play for certain teams, the teams that the players don’t want to play for should look in the mirror.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Nov 11, 2011 11:56 AM PST up reply actions  

You can disagree, but you are incorrect

There is a reason that from 91-07, every champion except 3 had Jordan, Duncan or Shaq. Its because without your Lebron, you are a loser. The performance of the Lebrons so dwarfs the performance of the average player that no amount of spending can fix it. The three teams that got there without those three players didn’t get there by out spending either. The Isiah Knicks are the example in the opposite. They had all the revenue in the world but couldn’t win. Competitive balance and revenue have little to do with each other.

Secondly, the luxury tax is revenue sharing. It takes money from the haves and gives it to the have nots. The players are against this particular form of revenue sharing. They are against it because they want the freedom to form super teams. To me that is still their right, but it still is what it is.

If the players want to take less to play for certain teams, they can do that with or without a punitive luxury tax system. But that’s not what they players want. They want their max contracts and to go to the team they want as well.

Really, that’s what any employee wants. Just observing it and naming it is not a judgment on it. Identify the issue and bargain for it. Let’s get on with it.

by John R on Nov 11, 2011 12:21 PM PST up reply actions  

competitive balance isn't the same thing as champion

True there are a limited number of talented players, but money does play a role. They just want the teams to be competitive enough to attrct enough fans to make money.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Nov 11, 2011 12:40 PM PST up reply actions  

I feel like doing some research

I can post my calculations if anyone wants to see it, but going back to 05-06 through 11-12 salaries committed so far, here’s a list of teams and their respective average revenues / salaries:

Now, here’s part 1 of my argument: if a team has high revenue, they have the ability to spend a lot of money on players. Some teams, like the Bucks, don’t have a lot of revenue, but they made the sacrifice to spend money on players, and it got them into the playoffs. Other teams, like the Wizards or Raptors, have lots of money but chose not to spend it on players, so they have remained outside of the playoffs for the most part. I don’t think anyone’s disagreed with this so far, it just really leads to my second point.

And here’s part 2: teams that spend a lot of money on their players are most likely going to the playoffs. Every single one of those teams in the top 15 has been to the playoffs in the past 2 years, and made significant appearances over the period of this analysis. Some teams that have made a lot of appearances without spending a lot on players are the Nuggets and Pistons (and most recently the Grizzlies), and a team that has spent a lot with very little playoff success are the Knicks and Sixers. Fans of advanced metrics will point out that these first teams are those that have spent very wisely (the past super-Pistons is outweighing the current idiot-Pistons). You’ll also note that the Knicks and Sixers have most definitely not spent wisely.

Now, lending itself to John R’s “having your LeBron” theory above, the Hornets have made a ton of playoff appearances without revenue, and without a high payroll. Ladies and gentlemen, Chris Paul is most definitely a LeBron. The Magic have not spent very wisely, and yet they’ve had success because they have their own LeBron in Dwight Howard. One could probably argue that the Magic could have saved a lot of money and had just as much success.

So my afternoon of research has led me to the following conclusion: you can get to the playoffs (i.e. competitive*) by a number of avenues.

1) Spending a lot of money on good players
2) Spending very little money on sneaky-productive players (spending smart)
3) Spending a lot of money on bad players, but having a LeBron to make up for it
4) Spending very little money on bad players, but having a LeBron to make up for it

Money isn’t the only way to win, though it absolutely helps. You don’t have to worry about spending smart if you can afford to just keep shooting in the dark until you win. Yes, poor teams can win under the current situation, but most poor teams aren’t going to spend a lot of money on players, so they only have 2 of the above options available to them. Rich teams have 4 of the options available to them. That doesn’t sound very fair, does it?

*While championships are the ultimate goal, the playoffs are such a small sample size, almost any team can win once they get in, so let’s not use championships as a measuring stick, please.

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Nov 11, 2011 6:54 PM PST up reply actions  

Great research - thanks

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Nov 11, 2011 10:40 PM PST up reply actions  

This is why the owners want revenue sharing.

Money helps. Period.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Nov 11, 2011 10:40 PM PST up reply actions  

Who is they?

Wins drive home attendance.

There will never be a season where everyone goes 41-41, no matter the season. No amount of revenue sharing will fix it. There is a short supply of tall people. Some teams will suck. Sometimes teams that spend a lot will suck; sometimes teams that spend a little will suck.

Competitive balance in the NBA is a chupacabra, a boogeyman, a ghost, a myth.

by John R on Nov 12, 2011 3:32 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Yah ok. Whatever you say.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Nov 12, 2011 3:51 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Give me a little credit for my research above, huh?

I did the heavy lifting for a reason, and I think there’s evidence that teams that spend a lot will suck less often than teams that spend a little, if only because teams that spend a lot have more ways to stumble upon success.

Spreading around the money starts to level that playing field. No one’s asking for 41-41 from every team, just that the 50-win teams stop being the same teams over and over again. There will always be peaks and valleys, but it should be more random as to which teams get their time up top.

Sorry if I’m irritable, but it’s kind of annoying to put in the legwork only to have it blatantly ignored in a subsequent post.

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Nov 13, 2011 9:18 PM PST up reply actions  

You are right about the LBJ's of the world

But that’s not the issue here.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Nov 11, 2011 11:58 AM PST up reply actions  

Where have you been for the last six years?

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Nov 11, 2011 8:56 AM PST up reply actions  

He's been here...

You don’t remember Swagmista (or something like that)?

Proud member of Club FTR. falconPUNCH! for president!

by Newton Pham on Nov 11, 2011 9:08 AM PST up reply actions  

hah swagmista... I kinda like it.

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Nov 11, 2011 10:51 AM PST up reply actions  

I know that ;-)

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Nov 11, 2011 11:18 AM PST up reply actions  

Call me Swagmista...

They forget so quickly. BTW, I think it was Steve’s idea I change my name. Can’t remember. I guess he hated Swagmista.

by John Raffo on Nov 11, 2011 11:22 AM PST up reply actions  

Swami John the Swagmista

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Nov 11, 2011 6:56 PM PST up reply actions  

Swami John the Swagmeister

writing articles on the Clipper Blog

"Help, I've fallen in the tub and can't get up!"

by PV Mike on Nov 11, 2011 8:31 PM PST up reply actions  

now now...

I certainly suggested a name change – just as I changed from ClipperSteve to Steve Perrin. But it had nothing to do with a hatred of the swami handle – just a front page credibility issue.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Nov 12, 2011 12:13 PM PST up reply actions  

Well it was great to see the super team fail.

Hopefully this will discourage the players from doing it. This is the main reason
for these hardline owners wanting these no sign and trade to over the cap teams.

by ENCUEROMAN on Nov 11, 2011 3:26 PM PST reply actions  

I wouldn't call the Heat getting to the Finals a failure by any means...

"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.

by Gordon for President on Nov 11, 2011 3:30 PM PST up reply actions  

It was nice to see them not close the deal, though.

They can win next year, that’s fine, I just didn’t want LeBron yelling out “Anything can happennnnnnn [if you bypass the NBA rules with a loophole by having Dwyane Wade speak on behalf of Pat Riley and recruit players when they aren’t supposed to be spoken to]!!!”

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Nov 11, 2011 6:59 PM PST up reply actions  

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