The Daily Clipper - More Blah-Blah-Blah
by Lawler's Law on Nov 7, 2011 9:14 AM PST
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Morning-after lockout roundup: NBA union is very, very angry - To quote the great Raffo "Blah-blah-blah..."
telegraphjournal.com - A high-priced proposition | Randy O'Donnell - Breaking News, New Brunswick, Canada
Saint John Mill Rats general manager Ian McCarthy tested the waters to see just what it would cost to bring in former Boston Celtics second-rounder Ryan Gomes. McCarthy has known the 6-foot-7 forward for five years and spoke with him this summer.
Losing LeBron could benefit Cavaliers in NBA draft - Basketball Wire - SunHerald.com
When the Cavaliers traded LeBron James to the Miami Heat last summer, they included language that went largely unnoticed at the time, but could come into play as this labor battle drags into its fifth month.
Charity game canceled citing possible deal | HOOPSWORLD | Basketball News & NBA Rumors
A charity basketball game involving NBA players scheduled for Sunday was canceled because of the potential that the league's lockout could come to an
Red Hot Chili Peppers bassist Flea sells Malibu house - latimes.com
The NBA's Corey Maggette, who recently sold his Westchester house for $1.85 million, has bought an estate in Newport Coast for $3 million, public records show. The former L.A. Clipper can now count Laker Kobe Bryant among his neighbors. The Mediterranean house, built in 2001, sits on more than 13,000 square feet and features five bedrooms, 51/2 bathrooms and 4,800 square feet of living space. Maggette, 31, was with the Clippers from 2000 to 2008 and plays for the Charlotte Bobcats. Tim Carr of Coldwell Banker Previews International was the listing agent, according to the Multiple Listing Service.
NBA labor negotiations resume amid rancor, infighting - Basketball Wire - SunHerald.com
With behind-the-scenes wrangling on both sides threatening to wreck the NBA season, players and owners resumed labor talks hoping to make the negotiating equivalent of a half-court heave.
Living With The NBA Lockout: Coping With Lost Games As The Players Slowly Bleed - SB Nation Chicago
The latest proposal from the owners appears to have the 2011-2012 NBA season on life support as David Stern and his men continue to run up the score on a game they already won.
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Blah, blah, blah
Blah, Blah, Eric Fisher, blah, Davis Stern, blah, blah
"The number 2" Projected Colts wins and number of students from Tennessee attending Vanderbilt.
I was in high school during the last lockout
What’s the tenor of this stoppage compared to the last? Does it feel the same? Was there this much despair in early November as there was then? I’m looking for some kind, any kind, of hope.
Last time...
They barely talked from October to January. So arguably the relationships were more frosty, but at least they weren’t talking in the news every week – because they just weren’t meeting.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 7, 2011 10:56 PM PST up reply actions
Also look how communications and media have evolved
since the last lockout.
"The number 2" Projected Colts wins and number of students from Tennessee attending Vanderbilt.
There goes Jordan's legacy.
Man….I was looking to buy the Jordan 1 KO and Jordan 3 Black Cements this month too.
Proud member of Club FTR. falconPUNCH! for president!
Seriously
It’s pretty eye opening to see the tweets from players like Nick Young just blast Jordan. I’m surprised Jordan would even take such a vocal stance against the players. It’s one thing if he is privately pushing for a hard line, but you’d think someone who has historically been so protective of his image would be quiet in actual negotiations.
Hmmm actually
According to Woj, MJ didn’t say a word on Saturday:
Yet the players come out all upset on Saturday. Makes me wonder if they’re getting bad info (or is it good info?).
never believe Woj.
Proud member of Club FTR. falconPUNCH! for president!
Disagree
I don’t like Woj’s style, his bias or his attitude, but his sources seem to be pretty sound.
You just have to get through the annoying rhetoric and his obvious slants. But they’re so obvious it’s not too hard to identify and avoid them.
ok. you got me. I just hate Woj.
Proud member of Club FTR. falconPUNCH! for president!
Me too. But mostly for soulless Clipper-bashing in the past. Completely irrational, I know.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
If there's two of us who think the same...
…does it still make it irrational?
Proud member of Club FTR. falconPUNCH! for president!
To be clear
I don’t think it’s irrational to hate Woj. His writing style is really off-putting and he’s always pushing his agenda.
He just has good sources…which is weird.
Yeah
I trust his sources more than, say, Chris Sheridan, who has been way off base about this lockout so far.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
Yup.
Sheridan puts stuff into a column faster than anyone but it’s often incomplete and without nuance. And he seems to have had a terrible read on the owner’s agenda. For me, at least as far as the lockout news goes it’s: Woj, Beck, Berger. I also think Larry Coon and Lester Munson are great at reading deeper strategy.
But today it just all seems like useless noise.
Jordan likes to win
Basketball, golf, and lockouts.
Wouldn’t taking a different stance be the opposite of his legacy?
He also likes money
I.e., gambling. That said, I can see him pushing for reform to get him more money, despite the fact that he got a TON of money from the system that was just in place when he was a player.
Legacy
Is winning Jordan’s only legacy? Jordan liked to win, sure, but he liked to do so in a certain way. He himself said that he would never have pulled a LeBron to team up with his greatest opponents, despite the fact that it almost guarantees a championship. I think part of Jordan’s legacy—-or at least, his perceived legacy—-is that he won without making any compromises. Or really, when you really get down to it, he won without making himself look bad. This seems to be what people are holding him accountable for. I mean, it’s pretty much an expectation of perfection, so that’s not really fair.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
And on a side note
Pippen and Rodman were easily some of the greatest in the league at that time. I’d take them over Wade and Bosh, at least. I like defense.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
No doubt
It’s more about Rodman vs Bosh.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
for the majority of the teams Bosh would be a way better fit then Rodman
fact is that his skill-set isn’t as compatible with Wade and Lebron then Rodman was with MJ and Pippen. That doesn’t take away the fact that Rodman on his self wouldn’t take a team anywhere. Give Chris Paul or Deron Williams Bosh and they’ll be all smiles. But to be 100% effective Bosh has to be a priority scorer for his team. And that won’t happen with the Heat. I think that Bosh will be traded away if the Heat don’t win it next season. Bosh will still be worth a decent center and PG.
by BelgianClipper on Nov 7, 2011 9:51 PM PST up reply actions
look at the snide remarks he keeps on making
against people he tangled with in his past. Look at Jordan’s speech at the hall of fame. Jordan in his playing days was the GOAT. But since then it hasn’t all been that great. I think he realizes that taking the Bobcats to the top (where he’s always been) is very difficult, more so because MJ hasn’t showed any indication of good GM skills.
by BelgianClipper on Nov 7, 2011 9:35 PM PST up reply actions
Totally
He’s been far from great outside of playing. So it’s weird that people are holding him to the standards he built on the court, when (for a while now) he’s clearly been a different guy off the court.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
I Read That The NBPA Has Called A Meeting For Tomorrow
I don’t don’t how many will attend, but one source I read said it is going to be a very large number of union members. Possibly a meeting of the general assembly of union members?
If someone has link could they please post it. Thanks.
If this is indeed true and happens it will to my recollection be the first such meeting of the majority of players since the current work stoppage began.,
I would love to be a fly on the wall for this meeting. LOL
Supposedly call to all team reps
That’s what I’ve been seeing on twitters. Supposedly there will be a conference call today to educate the players on the details of what’s going on, and then tomorrow there’s a mandatory meeting for union reps from all 30 teams.
Alan Hahn talks about it HERE.
In Letter to Union, Stern Details His Ultimatum
By HOWARD BECK
Published: November 7, 2011
The ultimatum issued by the N.B.A. to its players over the weekend not only threatens them with a worse labor deal, but also a massive pay cut if they do not make a deal by Wednesday afternoon.
A letter sent by David Stern, the commissioner of the N.B.A., to the players union Sunday contrasts the proposal on the table — highlighted by a 50-50 split of revenues — with a "reset" proposal that would cut the players’ share to 47 percent, roll back current contracts, impose a hard salary cap and reduce contract lengths.
cont here
To me this is a tactical mistake by Stern...
He’s insulting the players and their union. If he wants to back the players into a corner and force a decertification and lose a season, it’s a really good move.
I don’t understand this, Stern would tell you that he invented the salary cap. The only way the cap works is with a healthy union and collective bargaining, why is he challenging the players to decertify?
I think he's taking a risk
Stern is a shark, as are most of the owners. They see blood and they’re willing to go for the kill.
They see what we all see – that the union is fractured, the leadership is under fire and players are not at all united (What!? What about those t-shirts they wear?!!??). Yes the good thing to do is throw them a bone and go up to 52%. But I think it’s just as clear that David Stern doesn’t have the votes to pass a deal above 50%. So instead they’re going for the kill and giving them a hard deadline.
I think right now Stern is working on the owners to try to give the players one small concession on Wednesday and make it happen.
Are the players really, really going to decertify?
This move says if you are going to do it then do it. If you aren’t going to do it act like grown ups, stop playing around, eat the sandwich and take the deal on the table.
Make a boom boom or get off the pot.
This seeks clarity.
"Make a boom boom or get off the pot."
Best line ever.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
But decertification is a last ditch resource.
If you mean that the players should have decertified back in July, I suppose I understand the argument. That’s what the big agents were counseling: The owners were up to no good, their numbers smelled funny, and the only way to fight back was by killing off the union and taking the whole mess into court… let’s see how the owners like having their cozy anti-trust situation examined by the powers-that-be.
But Billy Hunter right or wrong, thought he could make a deal without going the decertification route. And if David Stern was still David Stern, Archangel, he might have been right. Apparently he is wrong.
Decertification isn’t great leverage, it’s slow and will wreak huge damages, for those same reasons, decertification makes for an even weaker threat… unless your opponent believes you are willing to pull the trigger. But decertification and the THREAT to decertify are the only weapons the players have left. But they are two different weapons.
As madglove says, Stern is taking a risk and he figures the players don’t really want to decertify. If Wednesday comes and goes and the owners really do “rollback their offer” the players will have no recourse but to decertify… and all hell will break loose.
I am saying the players won't decertify
April to mess up the playoffs, July, now. Never. Its a non-resource.
And the players are correct to not decertify for the reasons madglove lays out here.
Right now they need to take some advice from Marsellus Wallace and ignore that slight sting.
What is the players’ objective?
How do they intend to achieve this objective?
I don’t even think the players know the answer to the first one and the larger group has no idea how to answer the second. Figure yourselves out players. Everyone is waiting on you. If the players don’t have a plan or any leverage, and they don’t, they are only costing themselves money while pride f’s with them.
Who are the players even fighting for at this point? Its not themselves. Some imaginary future players? Let them fight their own battle. If the BRI can swing 7% to the owners today, maybe in the future it swings back. No sense in lighting yourself on fire for a hypothetical.
I bet if the current offer got to a full vote it would pass today.
Yahoo Sports Poll
posted below indicates that over 60% of fans say players should accept current offer.
Only 15% say they support decertification.
I agree with you on:
If it was put to a vote that most likely the current NBA proposal would be accepted.
Marcellus Wallace
That’s pride f***ing with you, players.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 7, 2011 11:01 PM PST up reply actions
and "Marsellus don't like to be f***ed by anyone except Mrs. Wallace!"
"The number 2" Projected Colts wins and number of students from Tennessee attending Vanderbilt.
It's funny because after I read this, I drove home and Pulp Fiction was on TV.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
Did u watch it while eating a Royale w/ Cheese or a Le Big Mac?
“They can’t call it a quarter pounder in France as they use the metric system!”
"The number 2" Projected Colts wins and number of students from Tennessee attending Vanderbilt.
Always makes me want a burger
Every single time. And a tasty beverage to quench my thirst.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
This Will Certainly Be A Tough Call For The Players
By the way how does the NBA’s proposed new CBA affect the players’ NBA pension, working conditions and the players’ health care benefits? Unions are usually concerned with four things
1. Pensions
2. Working Conditions
3. Healthcare benefits
4. Pay
I am not aware of the NBA proposing to reduce the players benefits in the first three areas. In fact I understand the NBA proposal actually proposes an improved pension plan.
I'm a member of a union.
And if I left the union today (or if the union decertified) I’d still own my pension, though I don’t know what it’s value would be at retirement since there’d be no more active contributions… but the money wouldn’t vanish. Active health care benefits would disappear because there’d be no more “group”, not sure about retirement health care. That’d be a drag. It takes a long time to qualify for that. I assume the NBA player’s deals are similar.
Who Is Talking About Decerficiation Here?
I appreciate your feedback on how players would fare during decerfitication however I don’t think that answers my question about the proposed CBA which is.
If the players accept the proposed CBA will their health care benefits, working conditions and pension be worse or better than it was under the previous CBA?
Or are you saying that you think it would be better for the player’s and fans for the league to decertify?
I don’t understand your juxtaposition here.
I was talking about the NBA proposal compared to the previous contract with respect to healthcare benefits, pension and working conditions, not if it is better for the players, fans, cities etc for the players to decertify.
I was just pointing out that as far as the new contract is concerned the NBA players are getting to keep or even get better non-pay benefits than under the old contract. I haven’t heard anything to the contrary.
The discussion of whether employees should benefit in pay when a company does better and whether they should take a hit in pay when a company does worse is another discussion all together and very complex.
For example if you work for a startup high tech company you most likely will get some stock. Many employees in start up companies take stock in lieu of cash. If the company does poorly and the stock becomes worthless or worth very little to the employees who received the stock do they have a right to sue to get the difference in cash that they lost by taking stock? I think only an economic extremist would say yes.
If management screws up are employees entitled to get paid as much including in stock option values for doing the same type of work as an employee who received stock from a company that excelled making the stock option worth more in value than they would have received in pay?
I don’t know what the fair amount of pay for NBA players should be.
Clearly under the proposed CBA NBA employees career earning including non-basketball earnings like shoe contracts will continue to depend almost entirely on the player’s performance over his career.
Has anyone calculated how much money Harrison Barnes will make under the proposed CBA vs the previous CBA? Of course not, because it will depend almost entirely on how well he plays over his NBA career. That will not change in the proposed NBA CBA.
The concept of one way streets I understand by one way pay over a person’s career I have never understood.
corr
Or are you saying that you think it would be better for the player’s and fans for the league union to decertify?
I wasn't trying to answer your question.
I was musing about what would happen to my benefits if my union decertified. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
I thought it was interesting that the union suddenly threw in the one percent for retired players the other day. I suspect this was motivated by PR.
NBA is dead!
Michael Jordan is exposed as a sellout! This is the best possible thing that could’ve happened for the sport. Now maybe the players will sue the league and use that money to fund a new league where real basketball can finally happen. I’m excited for a change, the fans and players need to reclaim the integrity of basketball. This is the first step in that process. Decertify already!
wine um, dine um, 69 um
by flightofthegriffin on Nov 7, 2011 11:27 AM PST reply actions
yeah, a harlem globetrotters, playground, And1 type league that can’t be taken seriously. I don’t want clowns and actors on the court..I want real basketball. The players can also pay themselves more than what the NBA is paying them currently.
why would it be another and 1 league?
are we going purely off opinion here? Has any player in the NBA currently ever played in a street ball league? I don’t know why millionaire professional players would waste money on such a concept. These men have played at the highest level of their sport for most of their lives. I’m just not seeing the connection; beyond the fact that you think billionaire owners and david stern bring some sort of order to these reckless school yard players.
Maybe we know nothing beyond the NBA for our particular group of players, but it surely isn’t the only entity possible of governing organized respectable basketball. The NCAA and the olympics seem to be doing alright; I would even argue that their integrity for the game is higher than the NBA. Plus I doubt if I was a top player in the league I would support less competition and more “clowns and actors”. These players love the thrill of competing to be the best, which doesn’t involve gimmicks and sideshows.
wine um, dine um, 69 um
by flightofthegriffin on Nov 8, 2011 2:59 PM PST up reply actions
Breaking - Possible Meeting Tusday Night
AschNBA Steve Aschburner
@
RT @WojYahooNBA NBA and NBPA are srsly discussing setting up mtg for Tues to try to reach agreement on labor deal (league source)
5 minutes ago
Kobe wants NBA owners to meet with players
By Adrian Wojnarowski, Yahoo! Sports 21 minutes ago
As the NBA and Players Association trudge toward a possible doomsday deadline, Los Angeles Lakers star Kobe Bryant(notes) urged owners to meet with the players union before Wednesday and spare the league from "spiraling into a nuclear winter."
"We need for the two sides to get together again before Wednesday, because we’re too close to getting a deal done," Bryant told Yahoo! Sports on Monday. "We need to iron out the last system items and save this from spiraling into a nuclear winter."
more here
Looks Like There Are Two Camps Forming Among Players
Lakers guard Steve Blake(notes) has been canvassing peers throughout the league over the past 48 hours, pushing them to contact team player representatives to push the Players Association to let its 450-plus membership vote on the owner’s ultimatum offer, sources said.
Blake hasn’t been pushing players to vote "yes" or "no" on the deal, but has gained a groundswell of support with players throughout the league. Nevertheless, Blake is a proponent of accepting the league’s current offer, sources said.
As a counter, there are multiple players pushing to get a petition together to start the process of decertifying the union, perhaps as soon as Wednesday. Agents have little doubt they can muster the 30 percent of the union – approximately 130 players – to push decertification to a formal vote after a 45-day waiting period.
This frigging negotiation is turning into a Reality Show or Soap opera. SMH
Judge Judy could end this thing in 15 minutes.
"The number 2" Projected Colts wins and number of students from Tennessee attending Vanderbilt.
Don't you dare chew gum in her courtroom.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
She would have both Stern and Fisher
on all fours barking with dog collars and leashes.
"The number 2" Projected Colts wins and number of students from Tennessee attending Vanderbilt.
She would?
OK, who exactly is this Judge Judy? Do they allow Dominatrix judges on daytime TV?
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 7, 2011 11:03 PM PST up reply actions
clippers reps
are gomes and blake?
"Blessed is the person who is too busy to worry in the daytime
and too sleepy to worry at night."
Author Unknown
Yep
I imagine they would both be for getting a deal done, Blake doesn’t want to miss another year of his career and guys like Gome’s can’t afford to sit out a season and lose a whole year of salary.
"It's better to be an optimist who is sometimes wrong than a pessimist who is always right"unknown
Kobe Can't Afford It Either Because He Is Chasing Michael In Career Points
If Kobe has any chance at of of being considered the greatest NBA player ever he needs to pass Michael in career points among other things. IMO Kobe really wants to be recognized or at worst in the argument for the greatest NBA player ever.
Kobe needs games to pass Jordan. Kobe is currently 4,400 points behind Michael in career points. This is probably 200 plus regular season games. He is 33. He can’t afford to miss an entire season if he hopes to pass Michael.
I don't completely buy the age thing, though
He’s far from old enough for age in itself to be a factor. My theory has always been that it’s games played, not age, that determines the “basketball age” of a player. Grant Hill spent so much time off the court, his “basketball age” is young enough that he’s still pretty effective right now. Conversely, Kobe has been playing since he was just a kid, practically non-stop, and has been involved in a ton of post-seasons. My guess would be that a year off would help Kobe more than it would hurt him. Hell, he’ll probably go train with Kareem and come back with some annoyingly effective hook shot.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
Huh?
He’s old enough that he’s got a very finite number of years left. I’d guess it’s a major factor. Not to mention his window. MJ’s got six rings, Kobe’s got 5. Lakers on the whole are an old team. Kobe wants as many chances at rings as he can get.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Nov 7, 2011 11:05 PM PST up reply actions
True Enough
However, he has less control over the rings than he does over the scoring.
In addition, I think most will agree that the current deal being offered by the NBA is not that favorable to the Lakers who are way over the Luxury Tax threshold. Yet Kobe has been rumored to wanting the players to accept this deal.
However, having that sixth ring will add to his amo belt in the fight over who was the greatest NBA player ever.
JMO
Well
My theory is pending the retirement of all of the high-schoolers. I’m interested in doing an analysis on players’ career lengths. I want to look at when they come in the league, how many games they play, and if there is more of a correlation to:
A) How many games are played
B) How old a player is
With possible adjustments for injuries, or hiatuses that result in rest (i.e. no playoffs, no Olympics, no World Championships, etc.).
My current hunch is that it’s more A than it is B, that’s all. Or more specifically in Kobe’s case, his nonstop playing is “aging” him more than a “basketball year” per season, while getting a year older without playing wouldn’t “age” him even a full “basketball year” (at his current age).
Without getting into it too much, my analysis will say something like aging from 18-19 ages a player 0.1 basketball years, while aging from 38-39 ages a player 1.5 basketball years. Playing 82 games + playoffs for an 18-year-old ages them 0.5 basketball years, while playing 82 games + playoffs for a 38-year-old ages them 2 basketball years. (I pulled those numbers out of a hat.) Anyway, I’ll probably do this when Kobe retires.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
Er.. I'll do minutes, not games. Duh, Erik.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
Agree
The minutes played will affect your longevity in the NBA as a player more so than just play age.
In any case he has logged an awful lot of minutes and has been injured the last couple of seasons at least. So even though he may be healthy right now the clock is definitely ticking louder and louder for him to pass Michael in scoring and as Steve pointed out get that sixth ring.
Yahoo Sports Poll
Accept the owners’ current offer 61%
Refuse offer; push to decertify union 15%
Refuse offer; keep union for talks 7%
Negotiate better deal before Wed. 18%
47636 Total Votes
Yes and no
you could argue that if the players don’t accept the deal then pretty much everyone is going to see them as the villains who kept the lockout by not accepting the owners proposal. But then again as you said I’m not sure what we think really matters in the end.
"It's better to be an optimist who is sometimes wrong than a pessimist who is always right"unknown
ISTM That Some Players Care What There Fans Think
No idea how many that might be, but I am pretty sure that there are some players who care what their fans think.
IASTM that Stern cares what the fans think. Why?
He many be about many things but at least to me it seems that he is about growing the NBA. To do this you have to keep the current fans happy and induce non fans to become fans. The NBA is great entertainment and ISTM that Stern knows this and realizes how important the fans support is. So IMO Stern does care what NBA fans think.
JMO
Decertification would mean no season.
I wonder why the union doesn’t put this last offer up for votes. They aren’t even giving
the players that option. Like Steve Blake puts he would be willing to accept the deal
being offer and i would think the players getting the big money would have to be
inclined in accepting the deal too.
the players getting the big money
appear the ones the most vocal for decerting. It is the middle tier players that stand to lose the most. The big money guys have already earned a lot and many of them earn a decent amount besides their contract.
by BelgianClipper on Nov 7, 2011 9:55 PM PST up reply actions
Players need to just accept this deal
They lost this fight, and it really isnt that bad of a deal anyway. Suck it up and move on.
I really don't get that attitude
the players might accept the deal, but it is their call. We as fans might have and opinion but the “I want my games, give up” rhetoric really is quite weird.
by BelgianClipper on Nov 7, 2011 9:42 PM PST up reply actions
The deal wont get any better though
And all the while they are losing money. If they dont accept soon, the deal probably will get worse, and since the owners have all the leverage, they can do that.
Some Tweets This AM
SLAMonline SLAM Magazine
Kobe Bryant Wants Owners, Players to Avoid ‘Nuclear Winter’ bit.ly/uGDAew
#SLAMnewswire #NBA
9 minutes ago
SLAMonline SLAM Magazine
SLAMonline.com
: Kevin Martin: NBA Players Need to Accept Deal bit.ly/tB720O
#SLAMnewswire #NBA
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