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Bulls 114, Clips 101: Foye Must Go, Maybe Mo Too (Interesting Mavs Comparison)

Just some of my thoughts watching the game tonight, not a full recap.

Intros: To start the year off right Fox Prime Ticket decided to air the player introductions. In the dramatic climax, "Your Starting Lineup", the Clipper's announcer introduced Mo as Chauncey Billups. Mo smiled but looked uncomfortable as his eyes grew big in confusion. He almost looked like he was going to turn around and not come out but then the announcer said his name. As if Mo wasn't already feeling disrespected this was a great way to start the home opener. I bet he wasn't happy.

Another note on Mo: Plaschke is reporting that after a missed shot by Mo, Caron yelled out "Pass the Ball!" to him after which they exchanged words. As much as I love Mo as the microwave off the bench, maybe it would be best for Mo AND the Clippers if he started for some other team.

Defense Sucks: I think this is obvious and it seems like some fans think VDNs defensive sets or lack thereof should get him booted right away. Others seem to think we need Pryzbilla or Fesenko immediately to right the ship. I think it's too soon to start criticizing VDN as he never had a training camp or much less a decent preseason to institute anything. Plus they played the Spurs, whose core of Manu, Timmy and Tony have played together for 10 years with at least a year with Blair, Jefferson, and Bonner, and now Chicago, whose main starters and bench have played together for a whole season (RIP being the only new, big piece). So of course their offense is going to make the Clips' D look like swiss cheese as they ran sets they've been practicing and running, fine-tuning for at least a year, if not years. Adding a big man is not going to instantly shore up our defense, because the defense that is lacking is TEAM defense. In the fourth quarter tonight the Bulls made almost every 3 point shot they attempted (I think it was at least 5). That's not something a Pryzbilla or Fesenko or a Reggie Evans is going to fix instantly.

Blake said in the Clippers Live post game interview that they need to do a better job helping to contain Rose and getting out to the 3 point shooters. Easier said than done! Even for a finely tuned defensive team, that is a struggle and a reason why the Bulls and Spurs both won something like 60 games last year.

My point on Defense: Fans need to be patient. What needs to be done in the meantime as the team learns how to play together more effectively? I do believe the Clippers could benefit from another big(of course) AND a taller guard. Why do I say that?

Just for fun, lets compare the Clippers roster to the Dallas Mavs Lineup for the Final Game of the Championship last year, GAME 6. As of today the Clips feature CP3, Chauncey & Mo in the backcourt, who are all short (listed as 6, 6-1, 6-3). But some could argue that last year's Championship Mavericks team often played JJ Barea (6[no way]), Kidd (6-4) and Terry (6-2) big minutes (30, 36, 34 in Game 6 of the Finals) to beat Miami. In the front court they had Dirk, Chandler and Marion. We have Blake, DJ and Caron. But off the bench they played Cardinal, MAHINMI and STEVENSON each about 12 minutes. Cardinal is a veteran stretch/perimeter big (we have our own Brian - Cook).

Now here's the difference & maybe a point of interest. Mahinmi was just basically a big body (6-11, 270) who made 2-3, grabbed 3 boards but banged out 5 fouls. The Clips don't have anyone like that on the roster, thus the rumors of Pryz. We need another 6-11, 7 footer to backup DJ for at least 12 minutes a game.

But what about Stevenson, he was the crazy guy (which Barkley on TNT said something to the point of all good teams need that one crazy guy - to which point Dallas acquired Delonte West this year since DeShawn is gone?) that played tough D.

On the Clips it would seem that Foye should be that defensive stopper. But Foye is at least an inch shorter, maybe a step slower, not nearly crazy Metta Peacey enough, and really more of a shooter and not really very consistent in the clutch. I think we need a very different kind of guard at the 2 coming off the bench. Some old Clips fans have brought up a fan favourite, Quinton Ross (who I actually got to have lunch with as a STH lunch winner! Very nice couple - him and his wife) I think he or more likely a player like him would definitely fit the defensive plan much better than Foye. Taller, longer arms and purely determined to chase and annoy opposing 2s and 3s (he should be able to switch off onto a Melo or Durant for short periods). He doesn't have to be great on offense. Why? Well some could argue that Foye stunk it up on both offense and defense, yet the Clips outshot the Bulls 51% to 50%. So even with Foye pulling the numbers down, the offense was fine.

So again just for fun here is how I see the Clips putting together a Championship caliber roster by comparing it to last season's Finals Game 6 Mavs Roster

Mavs - Clippers

JJ Barea - Eric Bledsoe [I genuinely believe he can have that same speedy, disruptive effect on the game]
Jason Kidd - CP3 [Kidd is taller and can post up better, but CP3 is just as crafty and can get in the lane better]
Jason Terry - Chauncey Billups [Terry may be younger & more mobile but Chauncey is just as deadly from 3 in the clutch]
DeShawn Stevenson - ???
Shawn Marion - Caron Butler [Similar games around 12-8 but the Matrix seems to have a longer reach for better D]
Dirk Nowitzki - Blake Griffin [Vastly different games but both potent on offense while somewhat criticized on defense or lack thereof]
Brian Cardinal - Brian Cook [Both vets and stretch bigs]
Tyson Chandler - Deandre Jordan [DJ is not there yet but some in media are saying CP3 could help him develop into the next Tyson Chandler. People see similarities in their games]
Ian Mahinmi - ???

DNPs
Corey Brewer - Ryan Gomes [I think Corey is definitely a better scorer than Gomes, but he was skinnier than a supermodel and did not play enough to affect games. Gomes should not play much either but he is. Problem]
Brendan Haywood - Reggie Evans [Brendan is taller and bigger and now starting, Evans is shorter and older but maybe what they give you is the same? Minimal minutes of rebounds and fouling opposing bigs]
Peja Stojakovic - Thompkins [Both 6-11, thin and can shoot 3s BUT Peja was deadly without hesitation and a veteran volume scorer at times, Thompkins is younger and more athletic and thus should be better on defense]

So am I basing my opinion of needing a taller, defensive minded (maybe crazy) SG and a 7 foot big man on this fantasy "build your team like last year's winner" comparison? Yes and no.

Yes, because I think it's a proof of concept. No, because I just feel that those two things are missing in watching the last two games. Cook and Thompkins are definitely not bulky or tall enough to deal with Blair, Duncan, Splitter, Asik, Noah or Boozer. Foye has not seemed to be quick enough or tall enough to defend effectively and probably thinks he's going to make his shots, where he should actually just be a decoy and focusing all his effort on defense. Gomes has not seemed to bring enough energy or defense or anything positive in a meaningful way (in 12 minutes he was -18, went 0-2 with 2 rebs and 1 to).

So if we took my fantasy comparison as a rule what would it suggest about the Clips roster?

1. Play CP3, Billups and Mo the most minutes. If Bledsoe returns healthy, trade Mo if you can get something of value in return. Some seem concerned that VDN played CP3 too many minutes tonight but I think CP3 is a bit overweight and needs the extra burn to start getting into shape. Plus he needs all the court time he can get with Blake. AND Billups (and Bledsoe) was out - he had to play big minutes.

2. Don't Play/Dump/Trade Foye. Find a taller, quicker, longer defensive minded 2 Guard. Don't worry about his offense, we have plenty of scoring. I know - easier said than done. Suggestions as to who's out there that could fit this bill?

3. Don't Play/Dump/Trade Gomes. Give Thompkins his minutes and live with his rookie mistakes. He needs playing time to develop. Play him at the 3 and 4. If Gomes is untradeable keep him as a backup.

4. Sign a Big Body (6-11, 230 at the very least). In this league, big bodies that can rebound and foul opposing stars is a necessity to keep starting bigs rested and out of foul trouble. Pryzbilla and Fesenko are on the radar and seem passable as Ian Mahinmi type number producers. As an added bonus Pryzbilla seemed to have a little feisty/crazy in him. Barkley might approve of him as "that one crazy guy" for the Clippers to be good.

Any taller, defensive minded SGs out there that the Clips should be looking at acquiring? DNPs, buried on the end of benches of teams with loads of 2 guards?

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i agree

watching foye miss open look after open look last night was maddening- and gomes remains just as shit as he was last year

by old666 on Dec 31, 2011 9:29 AM PST reply actions  

hahhaha was my recap that bad to warrant another?

Good stuff though MoKi!

Proud member of Club FTR. falconPUNCH! for president!

by Newton Pham on Dec 31, 2011 9:30 AM PST reply actions  

No Way Newtybar!

Sorry bro. Didn’t mean to steal your thunder. I started writing this before I saw your post and I just had so much to say I didn’t want to stuff it all into a giant, rambling comment.

I’m sure Steve hates it when I do this to him too but I try to only hit post if I what I am saying is not just repeating what others have written. Trust me there have been many many times over the years where I have written posts only to see that someone else posted the same ideas before me. All that writing would just go into the virtual trashcan.

But I figured I hadn’t really read anything on CN where we compared our roster to last year’s Champions so I thought I’d go with it. What really made me start thinking about it was…

A. Watching all the games (Wins and Losses, PreSeason and Regular) I thought we have really short guards and that could be super bad for us this year. Then I thought about JJ Barea, Kidd and Terry and looked up their heights. They are (relatively) short and they made it work! I mean come on. Reporters last year were saying JJ Barea would get stopped by security going into the team’s locker room because he’s so short they didn’t believe he was really JJ Barea!!!!!! That’s what I would call a defensive liability! But then I noticed they had taller SGs backing them up (Stevenson and Brewer).

B. Dallas has looked awful this year in the first two games. Commentators have been saying that they really miss Tyson Chandler. But Barkley said in his opinion they will really miss Stevenson. Made me think maybe that’s what the Clips are missing too. Plus I watched Barea play in Minnesota and he was really keeping them close till the end. I think they almost beat the Thunder in that game I saw. Very close. He’s lack of height on defense was not a liability enough to keep him off the court because his speed and craftiness on offense is so valuable.

by moKi on Dec 31, 2011 12:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Hopefully Travis Leslie can develop into our defensive stopper

We totally played better defense in the starting minutes of the first quarter! Other than that the bulls got open shots! Scoring for us will come every game, one way or another, but defense is something that may slowly develop, especially quality team defense. Hopefully it’s sooner than later!

"Every existing thing is born without reason, prolongs itself out of weakness, and dies by chance" -Jean-Paul Sarte

by Jayq on Dec 31, 2011 9:41 AM PST reply actions  

not this year

he is obviously not ready. when bled comes back i expect to see him sent down

by LJ Hann on Dec 31, 2011 9:50 AM PST up reply actions  

That Seems Reasonable

That Bledsoe should be sent down to the D League to get some playing time (because he’s buried behind, CP, Billups, Mo AND Foye) BUT

A. The Clippers have RARELY sent anyone to the D league in the past.
B. If they want to keep the option open of trading Bledsoe they might have to give him some minutes to show that his surgically repaired knee is ok and that he has value as a good young player.
C. If management is realistically looking just to make the playoffs this year and maybe dominate in the playoffs NEXT year, then they need to play Bledsoe to get him ready for next season where we may lose Mo, Billups or both.

by moKi on Dec 31, 2011 12:07 PM PST up reply actions  

Sorry LJ

Misread. I guess you are saying that when Bled comes back TRAVIS LESLIE will be sent down?

Maybe. Or showcased for a trade? Probably not.

by moKi on Dec 31, 2011 12:23 PM PST up reply actions  

yes

i meant leslie would go down. Bled is already too good to put up with that

by LJ Hann on Dec 31, 2011 5:55 PM PST up reply actions  

Just curious why we think Foye and Gomes are actually tradeable

for anything else worthwhile. Can we again refer to Foye as “LiL Chucker”

"Who wants a free Sharpie?"

by PV Mike on Dec 31, 2011 10:12 AM PST reply actions  

Yes PV Mike, Doesn't Look Good

Which is why I prefaced Foye with Don’t Play (just sit him) / Dump (trade him and some cash for a second round pick just to open a roster spot) or Trade (which as you bring up may not bring back anyone worthwhile – so probably not likely)

by moKi on Dec 31, 2011 12:09 PM PST up reply actions  

Foye is at least an expiring contract

I don’t see anyway of trading Gomes this season without involving cash and some 2nd round picks as sweetener. At least next summer he becomes a expiring contract.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Dec 31, 2011 1:10 PM PST up reply actions  

"Just curious why we think Foye and Gomes are actually tradeable"

Foye+Gomes for Nocioni+Speights (to guys rocking the bench for Phili: a wingman and big)

Hoopshype.com descriptions:

Nocioni= "Very strong and aggressive… Tough defensive player… Plays dirty sometimes… Good rebounder… Average offensive player… Good mid-range shot… Has developed into a threat from beyond the arc. >> Nocioni is an expiring contract this year.

Speights= “Very athletic big… Long arms… Quite a shot blocker.” >> Speights has 1 year left on his contract.

…Phili gets an extra gunner in Foye and a locker room leader who can fill in in Gomes. They get that for the same in contract lengths for players they never player.

Energy * Focus * No Excuses
"For [Griffin] getting in the way of Andre Miller’s 40 yard dash?" -S. Perrin

by Takebb909 on Jan 1, 2012 3:13 AM PST up reply actions  

Well...

not sure either guy is useful.

I’d rather see if they would take Foye (maybe a 2nd round pick?) for Speights. Nocioni probably is the same as Gomes and the real kicker is that you can amnesty Gomes next summer if you needed cap space/stay below luxury tax which you can’t do with Nocioni.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 1, 2012 7:16 AM PST up reply actions  

good point about the amnesty value of Gomes....

…as ironic as it all my be; a persons value is being considered, regarding something that is frowned upon by the player. It’s rather sinister.

Energy * Focus * No Excuses
"For [Griffin] getting in the way of Andre Miller’s 40 yard dash?" -S. Perrin

by Takebb909 on Jan 1, 2012 8:51 AM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Something wrong with that intro

there was obviously some technical glitch that prevented the intro that the clips planned. there were little warning signs posted at all of the staples entrances saying that there would be lasers used during the intros. then the lights went out and a video started but there was no sound and everyone, crowd and david courtney seemed really confused.

by lbclips on Dec 31, 2011 11:33 AM PST reply actions  

Wow

Of course the announcers on TV didn’t mention anything about that. But I did hear the music in the background go on and off. As a DJ myself I thought they would use a better beat or song in the background during the intros to get everyone pumped up but it sounded like someone was changing CDs in a CD player (awkward gaps instead of smooth crossfades and ducking).

Amateur hour. Hope it wasn’t DJ Dense. Maybe he just didn’t get it? (What a horrible DJ name…)

by moKi on Dec 31, 2011 12:12 PM PST up reply actions  

Bogans

is still available, he started all games for the Bulls last year, and can hit the open 3. The only other name in my mind is Trenton Hassell, but I don’t know where’s he now, still playing or not. Maybe Francisco Garcia is available in Sac-town.

I read somewhere that Fesenko signed with the Warriors. Probably the best FA center besides Przybilla is Ajinca.

by kingofrnb on Dec 31, 2011 11:38 AM PST reply actions  

Re: Bogans

Good: They won 60 games with him last year
Bad: They didn’t value him enough to keep him and went with scoring this year (RIP)

So he didn’t “work” for Chicago because they really lacked offense other than Rose last year and I think they thought Rose was getting tired trying to score so much. BUT the Clippers don’t have that problem because it seems CP3 and Blake can both score when needed and Butlers not too shabby either. So interesting. Maybe Bogans is the defensive minded guy that could work on the Clips. Learning all of Thibodeau’s highly touted defensive schemes last year could be a plus.

by moKi on Dec 31, 2011 12:18 PM PST reply actions  

bulls fans weren't Bogans fans to say the least

he started but only played limited minutes. Korver and Brewer got the bulk of the minutes at SG.

Your capslock is stuck, please buy a new keyboard

by BelgianClipper on Dec 31, 2011 1:18 PM PST up reply actions  

Le’ts give him a look. We desperately need a guy that can defend. Let’s look at Fesenko too, he’s a big dude. What are we waiting for?

by tenkaistar on Dec 31, 2011 1:49 PM PST up reply actions  

perhaps they are working on something

any FA they sign now will take some time to get in to game shape. If they are working on a trade they might be willing to wait a bit longer.

Your capslock is stuck, please buy a new keyboard

by BelgianClipper on Dec 31, 2011 1:54 PM PST up reply actions  

Just learned that Fesenko is injured and out of shape. That was the reason the Warriors changed their mind on him.

by tenkaistar on Dec 31, 2011 9:34 PM PST up reply actions  

that's the risk with FA that are left

Your capslock is stuck, please buy a new keyboard

by BelgianClipper on Dec 31, 2011 11:41 PM PST up reply actions  

my trade proposal above is MONEY...book it!

Energy * Focus * No Excuses
"For [Griffin] getting in the way of Andre Miller’s 40 yard dash?" -S. Perrin

by Takebb909 on Jan 1, 2012 3:15 AM PST reply actions  

No it's not

I like Speights too, but Nocioni is pretty weak. I don’t know why people hate it, but can you please inform me to why this is a bad trade:
Assuming Williams is going to be traded because of his attitude.
Mo Williams+Foye+Bledsoe for Jarrett Jack+Ariza
Then we sign Bogans and look for a bigman, Ike Diogu would do fine.
Then you have
Jack
Bogans
Ariza
Evans
Diogu
Then, when we want to extend contracts, we amnesty Gomes or Cook. Jack+Bogans+Ariza+Evans are extremely solid defenders and Jack can score pretty well, not to mention Bogans can knock down the 3. Ariza is a liability on offense, but we can always put him in with CP3 or Griffin so he doesn’t NEED to score. Evans can grab down numerous rebounds and him and Diogu clog up the lane quite nicely.

by SurfinQ00 on Jan 1, 2012 11:32 AM PST up reply actions  

Why would NOLA do that trade?

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Now living the good life in Lob City, CA.

by boltsfan21 on Jan 1, 2012 1:41 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm 100% sure they do this trade

Okay, let’s start things off with Bledsoe. They obviously have GREAT interest in Eric Bledsoe because they were about to end trade talks with the Clippers for this man. This shows that Bledsoe is obviously a very interesting and valuable prospect for them, so that is a plus. Now Mo Williams. He is an extremely solid scorer and they have also shown interest in him. During the iffy times (I suppose times are STILL IFFY) of Mo Williams’ future, one of the interested candidates was New Orleans. Various sources said they were looking into him, and if they took in Mo who was an unhappy 6th man, why would they start Jarrett Jack in front of him? They wouldn’t. So they obviously feel Williams>Jack. Randy Foye isn’t KEY, but I think he finishes off the deal nicely. With Foye, they get ANOTHER expiring contract from the Clippers. That means that with Foye and Kaman they will be able to clear up a whopping 18 million in cap space, allowing them to match ANY offer sheet Gordon signs and possibly searching for more players/stars. Now to go to NO players. Ariza has been less than consistent and his contract is quite large for them to take on. He is a liability on offense and that is something NO needs. We would like Ariza because he makes a solid defender, even if he is shaky on offense and comes with a large contract. Jarrett Jack is a solid PG, no questions asked in my opinion. However, I’m sure they would be more than willing to give him up if it meant gaining 1) A better, more experienced PG and 2) A young gun PG who shows raw talent and potential. Overall, NO would do this deal to cut salary, to gain a young prospect, and to obtain a better PG.

by SurfinQ00 on Jan 1, 2012 2:07 PM PST up reply actions  

I even wanted Belinelli

However, at that point, I think the trade becomes unfair. If there was someway we could throw in some draft picks to get him too, I think that would be AMAZING.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=74wpgzz
It works, and yes, I know you can make many trades work. But if we were able to do
Williams+Bledsoe+Foye+A pick or two for Jack+Ariza+Belinell, I think our bench would be SET.

by SurfinQ00 on Jan 1, 2012 2:20 PM PST up reply actions  

Maybe, but I highly doubt it

For one thing, your cap-space assumptions are a little off. Even with Foye coming off the books, they’d be adding $10.2MM in 2012-2013 salary while losing only $12.8MM, so the total cap savings would only be $2.6MM.

For another, it’s faulty logic to assume they have GREAT interest in Bledsoe. At the time of the CP3 trade, Stern was looking to save face after vetoing the first deal, so of course he was demanding every possible trade chip we had. But ultimately they were willing to do the deal without including Bledsoe, so their interest couldn’t have been that great. (And actually, it’s quite possible that they chose Aminu over Bledsoe — we know the Clips weren’t willing to give up all their assets, but we don’t know that we wouldn’t have done the deal if the Hornets had insisted on Bled instead of Aminu. In fact, I’m guessing the Clippers would’ve preferred to keep Aminu, given that he was the higher pick last year AND would’ve fit better with our remaining roster, but NOLA insisted on him instead of Bledsoe.)

Finally, I doubt that the Hornets necessarily feel the need to give up on Ariza quite yet. He’s a useful piece, and his contract isn’t all that onerous when you look at the landscape at his position.

Bottom line: This trade wouldn’t save them very much money and would hurt them on the court, since it would only be a slight upgrade at the 1 while weakening them considerably at the 3. I certainly can see why we would want to do it, but I can’t really see why they would.

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Now living the good life in Lob City, CA.

by boltsfan21 on Jan 1, 2012 5:25 PM PST up reply actions  

I suppose you make valid points

However, I am still confident NO would take this deal.
1) I suppose I did not do my math correctly, but still, they would be saving $2.6 MM, and every little bit counts when you are trying to start a new team. Also, couldn’t Williams just walk away from his play option too? I’m pretty sure he would not stay in NO if given the chance.
2) I truly believe that Hornets have GREAT (if not great, strong) interest in Bledsoe. The fact that he was the breaking point still makes me believe that Sterns had interest in Bledsoe. Why? Because he shows potential. I personally think he has way too many turn overs, but it appears that others value his raw talent. At the same time, I have a feeling that the Clippers would have fought to keep Bledsoe and trade Aminu. It seems that VDN and even Olshey show interest in this young PG. So I stand strong to my belief that Bledsoe holds value, not only in the NBA, but to the Hornets especially.
3) I think the Hornets wouldn’t mind giving up Ariza at ALL because his offense has been mediocre. I admit, that I like Ariza EVEN with his poor offense. And you say that his contract isn’t burdensome? He is in the books for about 7 million for 3 years and he hasn’t shown extremely solid offense, something they ask from him.
All in all, NO could save a great amount, especially considering they get to let Foye’s contract expire, and Williams could easily walk by not opting for his player option. I’m sure if they pleaded with him, he would also stay. Jarrett Jack and Ariza are good players, but the fact is, they get a more consistent scorer (something they need) in Williams and a young, possibly great PG, in Bledsoe. Not to mention Ariza’s contract would be out the window. So they basically get a step up in terms of PG position, they throw out an ugly contract, and they get to keep the “young core” they have been wanting".

by SurfinQ00 on Jan 1, 2012 6:00 PM PST up reply actions  

All you did was repeat your original assertions...

rather than saying anything that refutes any of mine. So you really didn’t need to write this dissertation. I heard you the first time. Doesn’t sound like you’re open to any logic other than your own, though, so whatever. Nice talkin’ at you.

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Now living the good life in Lob City, CA.

by boltsfan21 on Jan 2, 2012 3:03 PM PST reply actions  

Fail

was replying to Surfin

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Now living the good life in Lob City, CA.

by boltsfan21 on Jan 2, 2012 3:03 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm trying to re-assert my logic.

Neither of us have budged, so how can you make the conclusion that I’m the only one who isn’t open to others opinions. I heard what you said, but I suppose I look at things differently than you. I feel that Bledsoe was important for the Hornets, because you don’t cut talks of a huge deal for someone you really don’t care about. I believe they just backed down because David Stern was being pressured to just pull the trigger. And I still stand firm that they want to throw Ariza’s contract away. I’m sure they don’t want Okafor’s, but his is much tougher to get rid of. Don’t be hypocritical by calling me close minded when you have shown the exact same characteristic. I’ll admit, I think my logic makes more sense, but that is because I am the one who drew the conclusion. When you formulate an idea, do you listen to your logic or someone elses? I know I listen to mine, and I will stand by it unless someone can make a strong point to make me think to myself, Wow, I suppose that is right.

by SurfinQ00 on Jan 2, 2012 6:22 PM PST up reply actions  

OK, you're right

There, is that what you need, sport? I’m glad you’re “standing firm.” Of course, nothing you say is backed up by any solid information, but if you need someone to agree with your assertion that another team will make a trade that makes them a lot worse without saving them much money, then OK, sure, New Orleans wants to become a worse team to save a tiny bit of cap room.

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Now living the good life in Lob City, CA.

by boltsfan21 on Jan 3, 2012 1:23 AM PST up reply actions  

What do you have to back up your argument?

I see nothing from your argument. Yes, I will agree that they won’t save as much salary as anticipated, but their salary would be better spent on Williams and Bledsoe as compared to Jack and Ariza. Why? Look at their stats and game. I like Ariza because he is a threat defensively, but on defense he seems to hurt the teams. One a team that needs more offense, WHY in the world would you want him? Jarrett Jack is a good player, but I think we can both agree that Mo Williams is better. So in the long run, what is happening in this trade? Ariza, a weak scorer and who many consider a weak player in general, will be leaving the team (which I many have speculated New Orleans wants) with Jarrett Jack. Mo Williams, a better point guard, will replace him at the starting point, Bledsoe would become a nice addition off the bench, and Foye will be released after the end of the year. Is this the first time you have heard about the Hornets trying to get rid of Ariza’s bad contract? Because I heard it numerous times during the CP3 trade talks.

by SurfinQ00 on Jan 3, 2012 7:18 AM PST up reply actions  

Right there at the end is the flaw in your logic
Is this the first time you have heard about the Hornets trying to get rid of Ariza’s bad contract? Because I heard it numerous times during the CP3 trade talks.

Sure I heard it. I just didn’t hear it from anyone who matters. I heard it a lot from fans speculating on this blog, and I heard it from speculating bloggers on other sites that just regurgitate what everyone else is saying. But I never once heard it coming from the Hornets camp, or from any of the top NBA reporters with actual sources.

Just because a bunch of people who have no clue what the Hornets are thinking were able to look at their roster and go, “Hmmm, Okafor and Ariza have the biggest contracts, maybe the Hornets will want to get rid of them” doesn’t actually make it true. All we can go by is what actually happened, which is that the Hornets didn’t care enough about Bledsoe to not go through with the trade, and the Hornets didn’t (as far as we know) make even the slightest attempt to force us into taking Okafor or Ariza.

See, though you’re too stubborn to hear it, this is what I’ve been saying all along. The actual FACTS are on my side. All there is on your side are strands of speculation that you’re trying to weave together. And they don’t really make sense unless you’re a Clippers fan hoping for some charity from NOLA.

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Now living the good life in Lob City, CA.

by boltsfan21 on Jan 3, 2012 11:39 AM PST up reply actions  

I have some backup

I know he is somewhat notorious, but Chris Broussard’s sources informed him that the CP3 deal would be more likely to go through if Ariza or Okafor, a player with an “undesirable contract”, was accepted by the Clippers. Yes, bash him all you want, but he was completely right about the Lakers deal and Clippers deal, so why would he be completely wrong about this? I honestly don’t see your FACTS either. Almost all of this, especially this trade talk, is speculation. You speculate that Hornets would shoot down my idea, but is there any indication that they would? The trade was never offered, so we would never know. But from the information given (Bledsoe= dealbreaker, NO interested in Williams, Hornets trying to cut salary, Ariza has an "undesirable contract), I think I made a pretty stellar conclusion.

by SurfinQ00 on Jan 3, 2012 3:57 PM PST up reply actions  

Again
The trade was never offered

How the hell could you possibly know that? And no, Bledsoe was NOT a “dealbreaker,” obviously, since the deal got done without him. That is actually a FACT. And where did you get “NO interested in WIlliams” from? All you’re doing is regurgitating unsubstantiated speculation, and putting together 2 and 2 and coming up with 6. “Stellar conclusion”? Fail.

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Now living the good life in Lob City, CA.

by boltsfan21 on Jan 4, 2012 12:07 AM PST up reply actions  

So I am completely wrong to believe the sources that turned out to be right?

Okay, he was technically not a dealbreaker, but the fact that the Hornets were fighting for him in the deal, to the point where they were threatening to break off the deal,

The deal would be done if the league hadn’t asked for Bledsoe, according to one source close to the process.
shows that they had interest in him. I don’t see how you can fight that. In Stern’s position, he was trying to cover up his tracks by making a BETTER deal, and how did this deal get BETTER, because of a young prospect named Eric Bledsoe. The fact is, you don’t fight for someone you aren’t interested in, especially in a deal like this. I suppose I’m the only one who has linked Mo Williams to the Hornets? I agree that many of this is speculation, but for there to be several articles saying that he is linked with the Hornets and then you calling me crazy for that? Now that is absurd.
http://sportingalert.com/2011/12/mo-williams-linked-with-move-to-hornets/
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/998050-nba-trade-rumors-clippers-must-ship-mo-williams-out-of-la
reported that the New Orleans Hornets are "believed to be very interested in bringing him as a replacement for Paul.
. Please, before you start saying that I make 2+2=6, try to look at where my ideas are coming from. Yet again
1) Hornets were close to ending trade talks for Bledsoe. Sterns wanted a BETTER deal and a BETTER deal would have been if they got Bledsoe, especially because they are short on quality PGs.
2) When Mo Williams was showing unhappines, what were all of the articles saying? He was linked with some sort of NO deal. And to call me crazy that NO would have done an Ariza-Mo deal is to call many people crazy.
Just get off of my posts if you are simply going to call me out for things that are well thought out. If you want to make fun of trades, go to the ESPN boards, because there are a bunch of irrational fans you can make fun of.

by SurfinQ00 on Jan 4, 2012 7:05 AM PST up reply actions  

The fact that they wanted ALL of the Clippers tradeable assets...

does not mean they loved Bledsoe per se. It only means Stern was trying to save face by extracting the most he could. I get what you’re saying, but you’re making no effort to get what I’m saying. (And P.S., using a link to Bleacher Report – -not to mention sportingalert.com, whatever that is — doesn’t exactly help your case.)

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Now living the good life in Lob City, CA.

by boltsfan21 on Jan 4, 2012 11:13 AM PST up reply actions  

I have provided proof for my side, and where I am getting my thoughts.

I realize what you are saying, but I stand firm by my belief. I see your side of the story, but I have faith in what I have heard. Yes, he was trying to save face, but are you doubting Bledsoe’s worth in general? Even if you believe that the Hornets could care less about Bledsoe, are you really going to doubt his value? I know he isn’t worth a superstar, but he IS an interesting prospect, and for that, I know that the Hornets were interested in him. And if they wanted ALL of the Clippers tradeable assets, why didn’t they ask for Griffin? He is a tradeable asset, and yes, I know that is absurd, but I am just pointing out that you have made in mistake in saying they wanted ALL of them. At this point, the argument is not whether Hornets would jump on this deal or not, the argument is whether my ideas are valid and supported, and I think both are true.

by SurfinQ00 on Jan 4, 2012 3:25 PM PST up reply actions  

I like Mo a lot...

But he shouldn’t be playing PG. He’s better as a spot up shooter to stretch the defense. I think it would be great to have him and Butler at the wings to have as outlets for when CP3 or Griffin penetrate the interior defense.

by shay on Jan 2, 2012 3:20 PM PST reply actions  

I agree

However that makes him a liability on defense for most other SG’s. Let’s be honest, against the Blazers he had a tough matchup trying to keep up with Crawford, but he wasn’t able to even phase him when he seemed to do everything right! CP3 then goes in and stops Crawford with some effort. I think Williams is a great shooter and I like his offense; however, with the weaknesses on defense, we can’t risk having his D on some good SG.

by SurfinQ00 on Jan 2, 2012 6:24 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes, It Was A Round About Dis to Williams

That CP3 said I wanna guard Crawford in the last two possesions (Now talking about the Portland win). However, that’s not to say CP3 would have done any better for an EXTENDED period of time, more than Mo. CP3 just turned up his intensity to another level both offensively AND defensively in the last minute. I doubt he could run at that intensity for 30 or 40 minutes. But that’s the difference with superstars – they have that next level they can go to.

I really think CP3 got that jump ball call because of both his skill AND his reputation as a steal guy. If that was EJ I think the refs would have called it a foul and given Crawford 3 shots. I mean EJ already had that happen to him at least 2 or 3 times at the end of crucial games that I can remember.

by moKi on Jan 3, 2012 11:16 AM PST up reply actions  

Completely agree

I think even someone like Mo Williams may have been called for the foul. I believe that reputation + desire to NOT bail out players led to their call.

by SurfinQ00 on Jan 3, 2012 3:59 PM PST up reply actions  

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