Butler/Prince/Iguodala: By the Numbers

by John Raffo on Dec 6, 2011 12:46 PM PST

We know from Fearless Leader's earlier post that the Clippers are meeting with Caron Butler for a second time today. I thought it'd be a good time to take a look at Caron's numbers. And, it would be really interesting to look at them against two other small forwards we've talked a lot about, Tayshaun Prince and Andre Iguodala.

Before we start, there are a couple of things that really jumped out at me. First. Caron Butler has missed a lot of games. Of course, he played in only 29 last year, but he misses an average of seventeen games a year over the course of his NBA career. Tayshaun Prince? Andre Iguodala? These guys are both veritable iron men. Between 2004 and 2009, Prince didn't miss a game. Last year at age 30 he started 78. Iggy missed 15 games last year but has five 82 game starts in seven previous years.

I got the stats from Basketball-reference.com and threw out the stuff I didn't care about. Make the jump to see the numbers....

First, career stats:

Per Game

Glossary ▪ ▪

Rk	Player	From	To	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1	Caron Butler	2003	2011	589	556	36.3	6.1	13.9	.441	0.6	1.8	.319	3.7	4.4	.848	1.6	4.3	5.9	2.9	1.6	0.3	2.3	2.7	16.6
2	Andre Iguodala	2005	2011	553	553	38.0	5.5	11.8	.462	0.9	2.7	.323	3.9	5.2	.745	1.1	4.7	5.8	4.8	1.8	0.5	2.4	2.2	15.6
3	Tayshaun Prince	2003	2011	661	622	33.4	5.2	11.1	.464	0.7	1.8	.368	1.9	2.5	.764	1.3	3.4	4.7	2.7	0.6	0.6	1.2	1.4	12.9

Per 36 Minutes

Glossary ▪ ▪

Rk	Player	From	To	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1	Caron Butler	2003	2011	589	556	21365	6.1	13.8	.441	0.6	1.8	.319	3.7	4.4	.848	1.6	4.2	5.9	2.8	1.6	0.3	2.2	2.7	16.4
2	Andre Iguodala	2005	2011	553	553	21006	5.2	11.2	.462	0.8	2.6	.323	3.7	4.9	.745	1.0	4.5	5.5	4.5	1.7	0.5	2.3	2.0	14.8
3	Tayshaun Prince	2003	2011	661	622	22051	5.6	12.0	.464	0.7	1.9	.368	2.1	2.7	.764	1.4	3.6	5.1	2.9	0.6	0.6	1.3	1.5	13.9

Advanced

Glossary ▪ ▪

Rk	Player	From	To	G	MP	PER	TS%	eFG%	ORB%	DRB%	TRB%	AST%	STL%	BLK%	TOV%	USG%	ORtg	DRtg	OWS	DWS	WS	WS/48
1	Caron Butler	2003	2011	589	21365	16.2	.524	.462	5.2	13.9	9.4	13.8	2.4	0.6	12.5	22.7	105	107	21.3	19.3	40.6	0.091
2	Andre Iguodala	2005	2011	553	21006	17.1	.555	.499	3.3	14.7	9.0	20.5	2.4	1.0	14.7	19.8	110	106	29.7	24.2	53.9	0.123
3	Tayshaun Prince	2003	2011	661	22051	15.2	.528	.494	4.6	12.2	8.3	13.8	1.0	1.4	9.0	18.9	111	107	31.2	21.7	52.9	0.115

You know what? These guys all pretty good. Butler scores the most at almost 17 points per game but he's the worst 3-point shooter. Iggy's not a 3pt shooter either, but his TS% is the best at .555. Why? Because Caron tends to shoot a lot of threes, well over a hundred a year, with a career 3pt% of .319. He is, as Steve mentioned, a high usage player, his career usg% is 22.7 compared to 19.8 and 18.9. Speaking of passing, Iguodala is probably the best passing sf in the league with a career 4.8 per game average. Iggy also takes the career PER at 17.1 but they're all better than 15 for their careers.

Individual season comparison below. Okay, I cheated but I tried not to fudge. These are Prince's numbers from last year, a year in which he played 82 games, all for the same team. Iguodala's numbers are from two seasons ago, (he missed 15 games last year). Butler's numbers are older, from the 2008-2009 season. I figured this was fair since that was his last full season with a single club where he played close to a full season (74 games). It was a terrible team (the Wizards, 19 wins) but the guy's moved around a lot.

Per Game

Glossary ▪ ▪

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1	Caron Butler	2008-09	28	67	67	38.6	7.3	16.2	.453	1.0	3.1	.310	5.1	6.0	.858	1.8	4.4	6.2	4.3	1.6	0.3	3.1	2.5	20.8
2	Andre Iguodala	2009-10	26	82	82	38.9	6.0	13.7	.443	1.1	3.7	.310	3.8	5.2	.733	1.0	5.5	6.5	5.8	1.7	0.7	2.7	1.8	17.1
3	Tayshaun Prince	2010-11	30	78	78	32.8	6.1	12.8	.473	0.4	1.3	.347	1.5	2.2	.702	1.0	3.2	4.2	2.8	0.4	0.5	1.1	1.2	14.1

Per 36 Minutes

Glossary ▪ ▪

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1	Caron Butler	2008-09	28	67	67	2585	6.8	15.1	.453	0.9	2.9	.310	4.8	5.6	.858	1.6	4.1	5.8	4.0	1.5	0.3	2.9	2.3	19.4
2	Andre Iguodala	2009-10	26	82	82	3192	5.6	12.6	.443	1.1	3.4	.310	3.6	4.8	.733	0.9	5.0	6.0	5.3	1.6	0.6	2.5	1.6	15.8
3	Tayshaun Prince	2010-11	30	78	78	2562	6.6	14.1	.473	0.5	1.4	.347	1.7	2.4	.702	1.1	3.5	4.6	3.0	0.4	0.6	1.2	1.3	15.4

Advanced

Glossary ▪ ▪

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	MP	PER	TS%	eFG%	ORB%	DRB%	TRB%	AST%	STL%	BLK%	TOV%	USG%	ORtg	DRtg	OWS	DWS	WS	WS/48
1	Caron Butler	2008-09	28	67	2585	18.8	.552	.482	5.2	13.8	9.4	19.7	2.2	0.6	14.3	25.9	108	113	3.4	1.1	4.5	0.083
2	Andre Iguodala	2009-10	26	82	3192	17.8	.535	.485	3.0	16.8	9.8	23.7	2.3	1.4	14.3	21.8	108	109	4.0	2.8	6.7	0.101
3	Tayshaun Prince	2010-11	30	78	2562	15.1	.511	.490	3.6	12.6	7.9	14.4	0.6	1.3	7.1	21.0	108	115	2.9	0.4	3.3	0.062

Hmm... why doesn't Tayshaun Prince shoot more threes? .347 rate but only 1.3 attempts per game? Iggy and Caron aren't shy but their rate of success is certainly lower. Interesting that all three of them had fairly high usage these years. Caron with a whopping 25. But even Prince was over 20 percent. I'm thinking some of this is the product of all three players playing on bad teams these years. Prince and Iggy's PER's are steady but Butler's is high at 18.8.

Conclusions? If everything else was equal, Andre Iguodala probably wins the stat contest. He seems particularly suited to the Clippers because of his passing ability. But AI will make 13 million next year, and apparently, he isn't available... at least for what the Clippers are willing to give up. Butler or Prince probably come significantly cheaper (Butler was around 10.5 M last year).

All three players have reputations as good defenders and good teammates. Iguodala andd Prince have been on All-NBA defensive teams, and Butler was considered an essential piece of Rick Carlisle's defensive scheme last year.

But the biggest question about Caron Butler is one of health... not only does he have a long history of missed games, he suffered a debilitating knee injury just eleven months ago. While his usage is high, he has a good mid-range game and brings his toughness and good defense everywhere he goes. It's undeniable he'd be the best small forward the Clips have had in years....

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Comments

Good breakdown

Seems like Iggy isn’t a realistic option right now. Especially if they’re trying to trade for a star and his big salary.

I’ve always liked Butler…but man those injuries scare me…Kerry Kittles anyone?

by madglove on Dec 6, 2011 1:19 PM PST reply actions

speaking of Clipper SFs

funny that Butler was traded to the Mavericks in a trade that included Quinton Ross and James Singleton.

by osamu on Dec 6, 2011 1:23 PM PST reply actions

this is a great breakdown.

would have been interesting to have Gomes’ numbers there as well. it would make the whole article a bit cheerier lol.

From these numbers, Iggy and Prince seem to be better fits. Iggy has the best numbers, but Prince can shoot the 3 at a good rate.

I do like Butler though, and at a good price he would be a great add.

by indy818 on Dec 6, 2011 1:26 PM PST reply actions

Iggy

So at this point, it is safe to assume that Iggy is not part of the Clippers’ plan or future?

by lovinglosangeles on Dec 6, 2011 1:29 PM PST reply actions

Yeah not if the plan is to trade for CP3

"It's better to be an optimist who is sometimes wrong than a pessimist who is always right"unknown

by bestclipfan on Dec 6, 2011 1:41 PM PST up reply actions

Hmm. Actually it is possible if PHI is willing to do Kaman for Iggy straight up.

by banandy on Dec 6, 2011 1:56 PM PST up reply actions

My take on Butler and Clips

On another thread i questioned why Olshey would be so keen on the high-usage Butler as he appears to be, when it seems clear that guys like Prince, Battier, Ak are better fits for our current roster. . .

But with all the talk of a potential CP for Gordon deal, Olshey may be thinking that if they do indeed pull the trigger on such a deal (with CP extending), Caron would be best suited to fill the wing scoring void. Olshey probably knows that the Hornets would want to dump some contracts along with CP, so as sad as we all would be to see EJ go, we could have a lineup of
CP
Butler
Ariza
Griffin
DJ/Okafor

Thats a scary squad right there, and if we could keep the minny pick as well? Not a bad scenerio at all. Thats why i think Olshey is willing to roll the dice with Butler, he could work really well with the current team, or he could fill a void if we blew it up.

by cassellmania on Dec 6, 2011 1:41 PM PST reply actions

agree - Butler if we have to give up Gordon...Prince otherwise.

by banandy on Dec 6, 2011 1:58 PM PST up reply actions

Career Win Shares and W/S Per 48 Comparison

Players Win Shares Per Season -——- W/S 48 Career
-——————————————————————————
AI—————————7.70———————-.123
Prince -—————— 5.88——————— .115
Butler———————4.51———————-.091

No doubt Prince’s Win Share number of 5.88 was bloated by playing on numerous EC Finalist teams and a NBA title team.

I would prefer Iggy and could live with C. Butler. Prince, No way Jose

by Buddahfan on Dec 6, 2011 1:47 PM PST reply actions

Um, in fairness Prince was a major part part of those EC Finalist teams

What EC Finalist teams was AI2 a part of?

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Dec 6, 2011 2:04 PM PST up reply actions

Yeah, Prince was the STARTER and played major minutes on those teams.

by cassellmania on Dec 6, 2011 2:08 PM PST up reply actions

If Win Shares are anything like WP

Doesn’t it decrease your win shares when your teammates are really good?

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Dec 6, 2011 2:10 PM PST up reply actions

(Help me John R Kenobi, you're my only hope.)

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Dec 6, 2011 2:11 PM PST up reply actions

Not really

Lots of wins means lot of win shares. they have to be distributed to somebody on the winning team, so yes, a mediocre player on a winning team probably looks better in W/S. Of course, mediocre players on winning teams look better every which way than mediocre players on bad teams.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Dec 6, 2011 2:41 PM PST up reply actions

Ah ok

Is that how it works for WP too? I thought I once tried to argue that, and John R shut me down and explained how the calculation subtracts the WP by the rest of the team. So better teammates = lower WP.

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Dec 6, 2011 7:02 PM PST up reply actions

Well, it depends

If the lion’s share of the stats are going to your teammates, then they’re getting the lion’s share of the WS or WP also. So it’s a double edged sword.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Dec 7, 2011 12:44 AM PST up reply actions

You're funny...

You post your favorite stat, which shows a clear preference for Prince over Butler, and then tell us why that stat is wrong and go back to your anti-Prince agenda. I’m no fan of Win Share, but why even post W/S if you’re going to ignore it?

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Dec 6, 2011 2:15 PM PST up reply actions

Oh My Buddha!

by ganima on Dec 6, 2011 2:41 PM PST up reply actions

Good info

Health concerns me. Hell, anyone that’s graced by the hands of Jasen Powell scares me. I remember during Blake’s rookie year I was talking to an orthopedic that worked at the same place Blake got his first surgery at and he said the trainers on the Clippers didn’t handle his progress well at all.

Good to see the stats on Iggy but I thought it was a foregone conclusion that he wasn’t going anywhere? If anything I can see the Sixers in the same position the Clippers are with Kaman; waiting to see what their RFA (Thaddeus Young:Deandre Jordan) will do and then make a decision on their respective highly paid player (Iggy:Kaman). Here’s to hoping they get desperate and want a big.

by yaggiefresh on Dec 6, 2011 1:57 PM PST reply actions

Beggars can't be choosers

Let’s not forget that the number of coveted free agents that have ever — EVER — willingly chosen to join the Clippers since DTS bought the team 30 years ago is 1: Cat Mobley (or 2 if you insist on including Tim Thomas, who really just came to rob us). And this year there are not many solid starters available and lots of teams with significant cap room. If any one of the Top 5 3s (Butler, Prince, Hill, AK, or Battier) were to choose us it would mean both the biggest free agent score since Bill Walton and a HUGE upgrade over Gomes. I, for one, wouldn’t complain about landing any of them.

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.

by boltsfan21 on Dec 6, 2011 2:00 PM PST reply actions

Um. . .

I think you forgot about Baron Davis

by cassellmania on Dec 6, 2011 2:01 PM PST up reply actions

Oops

Yeah, you’re right. That’s the brain’s natural defense mechanism, repressing painful memories.

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.

by boltsfan21 on Dec 6, 2011 2:06 PM PST up reply actions

So...

We’re up to three free agents in 6 seasons. That ain’t so bad.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Dec 6, 2011 2:16 PM PST up reply actions

Except that 2 were content to cash their checks

but had no interest in earning them

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.

by boltsfan21 on Dec 6, 2011 2:32 PM PST up reply actions

That's a different question

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Dec 6, 2011 2:41 PM PST up reply actions

So when the MLE slots go away

And the contenders get their picks of these guys as sixth men, and there are none of the salary slots left and one of these guys settles for Clippers, its the biggest free agent score since Bill Walton?

Yikes.

I guess that speaks to the disappointment of last off season then. With $17M the Clippers couldn’t come up with someone who doesn’t make 39 year old Grant Hill or creaky and ineffective Caron Butler seem exciting.

Yikes.

by John R on Dec 6, 2011 2:06 PM PST up reply actions

That's life as a Clippers fan

39-year-old Grant Hill and ineffective Caron Butler are still major upgrades at the 3 for us.

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.

by boltsfan21 on Dec 6, 2011 2:08 PM PST up reply actions

Ineffective?

I don’t think you can look at any of Caron Butler’s numbers and come to the conclusion he’s ineffective. And Grant Hill, at 39 can still play.
And where do you get this “salary slots left”, guys “settling for” the Clippers stuff. It seems to me the Clippers are in the thick of it. While I suppose the proof will only be when someone signs a deal, but I think your words are disingenuous.

by John Raffo on Dec 6, 2011 2:33 PM PST up reply actions

Caron Butler

Always remember my fellow Clipper fans that “we have the technology to rebuild this man.”

by lovinglosangeles on Dec 6, 2011 2:06 PM PST reply actions

If the Six-Million-Dollar Man's trainer was Jasen Powell...

He would’ve ended up being worth about $3.50

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.

by boltsfan21 on Dec 6, 2011 2:10 PM PST up reply actions

From another Clipper blog

Who is Caron Butler? For the Clippers, he’s a square peg in a round hole.

by lovinglosangeles on Dec 6, 2011 2:11 PM PST reply actions

Stats

I check basketball reference every single day. Great website

by kikyexcel on Dec 6, 2011 2:18 PM PST reply actions

DJ Foster

DJ posted about Butler. Actually, DJ and I were chatting last night, and he and I feel about the same way about Butler. I think he’s a bad fit. Read DJ’s post on Butler – it saves me the time of writing one myself – he nailed it.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Dec 6, 2011 2:21 PM PST reply actions

Yeah, i dont understand Olshey's logic here. . .

Steve, being that Butler is used to being a focal point on offense, do you think Olshey could be looking at him as a potential guy to fill the scoring void if they pull the trigger on an EJ for CP deal? I know Butler has played SG before. . .

by cassellmania on Dec 6, 2011 2:32 PM PST up reply actions

Butler at the 2

Caron has actually played a lot of 2; but I think it’s really premature to be thinking about a post EJ world. Of course, maybe Neil knows something we don’t.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Dec 6, 2011 2:34 PM PST up reply actions

Yeah, i dont want to think of a post EJ world either.

But seems like things are really brewing right now. . .we’ll see soon enough.

by cassellmania on Dec 6, 2011 2:35 PM PST up reply actions

I read it (only after I wrote this one)...

I dont totally disagree with DJ, but I think Butler brings too much to dismiss. If the competition is Tayshaun Prince and Andre Kirilenko, I actually think Butler brings you more aggressiveness on both sides of the floor, more points, more rebounds, and probably more chemistry. And he’s a third resourceful option at the end of games. Prince’s production in Detroit has been on the wane, and I don’t know what’s going on there.
I like Butler on the floor when Blake and Gordon are not out there. He’s a guy who can either keep the flow moving or get it moving when it isn’t.
I also think Caron can be coached into something better than what he’s shown… if you cut out the three pointers you’ll be a long way into cutting that usage number down. That said, I wish the Clippers had a guy who I thought was really capable of that coaching.
But Butler’s biggest negative might be the biggest negative of all. His injury history is very scary.

by John Raffo on Dec 6, 2011 2:48 PM PST up reply actions

Butler

As a scoring option when EJ and/or BG are out is certainly a bonus. Clippers did not have enough options last year when the big guns went to the bench. Part of that of course was Kaman’s 50+ game absence.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Dec 6, 2011 3:13 PM PST up reply actions

I think the best compliment

is that Butler’s done what he needed to do at each destination. With the Heat, he teamed with Lamar to be a solid 1-2 punch. He effectively played second fiddle to Kobe and he took on more of a primary scoring role with the Wiz and even became an All-Star. On the Mavs he was asked to be 3-4 option and still put up decent numbers.

Again, I think his usage is circumstantial. He’s proven he can fit in anywhere and thrive and I do like him as a third threat and to help carry the team when EJ and/or BG are out.

by ganima on Dec 6, 2011 3:18 PM PST up reply actions

For the season

One of the best case scenarios would be Butler staying healthy (and singing with us of course). He has never played 82 games in a season. But imagine he does this time, that would be great (I love him as a player, he is a difference maker). And keeping Kaman would also give us more depth, and hopefully Coach Del Negro will do a better job at using both Kamand DJ in a way to make both of them efficient, because they are both good players, different players, but both good. So, let’s all pray that we sing Butler and he remains healthy :) (and I by the way I think we should part ways with Gomes right now.. and maybe Moon too, so that in the future we have enough space to offer Blake the contract he deserves)

by kikyexcel on Dec 6, 2011 2:29 PM PST reply actions

Good info here...

A few things that jump out at me from these numbers:

Butler is the best rebounder of the three – I was not expecting that. He’s also better than Battier, but Kirilenko is by far the best rebounder of the threes on the market.

Butler gets more assists than I thought. His career assist % is equal to Prince’s, which surprised me. Now, his high usage means he has the ball a lot, so one would hope he’d pick up a few dimes. But he did. Iggy is obviously the best playmaker, and again AK47 is very good in this area, much better than Butler or Prince.

Three point shooting is a problem all around. People see Prince’s percentage and think it’s a big factor in his favor, but he doesn’t really take threes. In order to be a three point threat, you have to shoot them, and 1.4 per 36 for a career doesn’t qualify. Gomes would stretch the floor better than any of this group. Only Battier would be an improvement there.

Prince’s high usage last season was an outlier in his career. It was a bad Pistons team with not enough playmakers, forcing a lot more touches to Prince. The rest of his career his usage has been much lower, and one presumes that’s what he would be here.

I’m basically with DJ Foster on this: I think Caron’s a bad fit. But I will admit that his rebounding and assist numbers are better than I expected. Unfortunately, his shooting efficiency is a little worse (though he does get to the line and make his FTs, which helps).

Caron’s been best when he’s been a featured scorer. If Kaman is on the team, the Clippers are looking for a fourth or fifth option. Even with DJ starting, you’re basically looking at the SF sharing third billing with Mo. Butler has not been great in that situation before.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Dec 6, 2011 2:33 PM PST reply actions

So if Prince goes elsewhere you stand pat with Gomes?

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.

by boltsfan21 on Dec 6, 2011 2:37 PM PST up reply actions

Krikey...

I dunno. I’m not thrilled with any of them. Gomes was terrible last year, but he didn’t cost much, and he didn’t use a lot of possessions.

My dark horse here will surprise you: Mike Dunleavy Jr. He’s a much better fit than most of the others. But I see no way the Clippers would sign him: AWKWARD.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Dec 6, 2011 2:39 PM PST up reply actions

lol - noooooooooooooooooooo

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Dec 6, 2011 2:39 PM PST up reply actions

If Basketball really were Sabermetrics

then I might agree with you. But I don’t think we can afford a starting 3 who can’t play a lick of D, given that we’re weak at the 4 and also not great at the 1 and 5 (DJ’s weakside blocks notwithstanding). I think we have to upgrade that spot, both offensively and defensively, if we expect to make the playoffs (unless, of course, any of the CP3/D12 stuff actually happens).

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.

by boltsfan21 on Dec 6, 2011 2:50 PM PST up reply actions

Even if CP3/D12 we need good wing defense

by ganima on Dec 6, 2011 3:04 PM PST up reply actions

Would love to find a way to get Iggy...

by banandy on Dec 6, 2011 5:32 PM PST up reply actions

But last season

Last season with the Mavericks, it seems like Butler shot 43% from 3 pt range, while attempting 2.7 three-pointers per 36 minutes. And, Steve, he’s a good defender too. And, personally I think that he could fit anywhere, he is an experienced player and it is not for no reason that he’s been more or less successful in all the team he’s played for, for instance with the Wizards, in his first season, he came off the bench for a lot of games, then throughout that season he became a starter, and the next three seasons, he started all the games he played in. I think he know how to fit in a team, he knows how to make himself helpful for a certain team. That’s why the Bulls are trying to sign him and make him play (it appears) shooting guard.

by kikyexcel on Dec 6, 2011 2:43 PM PST up reply actions

You're on to something

Caron’s usage has more to do with his circumanstances than anything else. He’s played on under-talented/manned Lakers/Heat/Wizards teams that needed him to be a featured scorer. He seemed to defer just fine in Dallas when healthy. I still prefer Prince or Battier but Butler isn’t automatically a poor fit.

by ganima on Dec 6, 2011 2:48 PM PST up reply actions

Last season

Butler had taken over 1000 threes in his career prior to last season, making about 31% of them. He made 28 of 65 in limited games last season. I guess that could the very rare ninth season three point shooting boost – but seems more like an outlier to me.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Dec 6, 2011 3:18 PM PST up reply actions

Kirilenko and Kaman...

I haven’t heard a word about Kirilenko. If he doesn’t get a ginormous offer I don’t think he’s gonna be back in the NBA this season… and I haven’t read a single rumor attaching him to any team. I thought, for simplicity’s sake that he’d be better left out of the comparison.
Regarding Kaman. I’ve been thinking about him. I like the guy, I do. But he’s increasingly become a black hole in the Clipper offense. When he played next to Elton Brand he was efficient on offense and defense and was a steady double/double center. After Brand left, his offensive responsibilities increased, to the point where he seemed to want to BECOME Elton Brand, a slow, half-court, low post scorer. But Kaman developed none of Brand’s reliability… and his ability or willingness to be a factor in the paint defensively seems to have vanished. I’d like to see f Kaman coached back to his 2007 utility. He’s worth keeping around. for that reason but HE should be the guy left out of the offensive game plan, not the sf, whoever that is.

by John Raffo on Dec 6, 2011 3:16 PM PST up reply actions

Kaman

Kaman hasn’t had a Brand next to him since Brand left. He was hurt the entire time that Randolph was here. Either he or Blake has been hurt the two seasons Blake has been here. I don’t think we’re going to get to see it, but I honestly think a Kaman/Griffin front line could be special.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Dec 6, 2011 3:20 PM PST up reply actions