NBA Rumors - Chris Paul: What Just Happened?
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.
[Note by Steve Perrin, 12/08/11 10:00 PM PST ] Thursday is my basketball night and I dashed off this post and rushed out the door to my game. When I got back, I saw that there were zero comments and was stunned. Then I saw that it was closed for comments - I have no idea how that happened, but it's open now. [End note]
During a week when it looked like Chris Paul might very well end up being a Clipper or possibly a Warrior, he was traded to the Lakers today - until that trade was put on hold because of the objections of the other NBA owners.
I'm going to say up front that I haven't been around the computer much today, and that all of you probably know more about the details here than I do. Nonetheless, I feel like I need to try to put some context around the day's events. But bear in mind that this thing is far from over.
The proposed three-team trade shapes up like this:
- The Lakers give up Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom and get Paul;
- The Hornets give up Paul and get Odom, Luis Scola, Kevin Martin, Goran Dragic and a first round pick (2012 NYK pick from Houston);
- The Rockets give up Scola, Martin, Dragic and the pick and get Gasol.
Focusing for a moment on the trade, I've been saying all along that the Hornets would never trade Paul for a package centered around Gasol - you can't lose the best player in the trade AND get significantly older at the same time. I may have been right about at least one thing - the Hornets aren't enamored of Gasol, but fortunately for them and the Lakers, the Rockets are.
In the proposed deal, I actually think the Hornets come out OK. Odom is unguaranteed next season, so they get salary relief on him. Meanwhile, if they truly coveted Eric Gordon, well, in a lot of ways Kevin Martin was Eric Gordon before Eric Gordon was. Martin is one of the most underappreciated talents in the league - a preternaturally efficient backcourt scorer who can drive, shoot with range and get to the line. He's not a good defender (one way in which Gordon is superior) but he's a very gifted offensive player. Scola is a poor man's Pau and Dragic has shown some flashes at the point - plus they get a first round pick, albeit probably one in the high teens.
On the other hand, why Houston would want to do this deal is beyond me. They gut their team for Pau Gasol. I think Pau is great, but you don't gut your team for him. Not at 31.
But all of that is irrelevant at this point, since the trade is on hold.
The whole situation is a disaster for the NBA. After a five month long lockout in which competitive balance was a major battle cry of the league, and the gap between the resources of big market teams and small market teams was another significant talking point, trading Chris Paul to the Lakers is a perfect storm of controversy.
- Paul is an elite player, the best point guard in the league;
- New Orleans is the league's second smallest market;
- Los Angeles is the league's second largest market;
- The Lakers are an absurdly high revenue team - they will be the highest revenue team when their new $200B TV contract kicks in this season;
- The Lakers are arguably the most successful franchise in the history of the league, have won the championship two of the last three years, and are invariably used as the example of what is wrong with competitive balance;
- The Hornets are owned by the league and looking for a new owner.
Given this confluence of factors, it's little surprise that the other owners cried foul when a team that they ostensibly own 1/29th of each decided to facilitate the construction of an even more super super team in purple and gold.
But it's also a disaster to block the trade. On what grounds would the trade be disallowed? Can the commissioner interfere based solely on the perception that one team is getting too good? As Chandler Bing once said, "Can - open; worms - everywhere!" After all, as I stated above, this isn't a bad trade for New Orleans. A veto may keep the superstars from aligning in LA, but it also keeps the Hornets from moving on from a difficult situation. If this veto remains in place, New Orleans will surely be forced to take a lesser offer from another team - or worse yet, to do nothing until Paul walks away for nothing next summer.
The precedent is less ominous if Stern has disallowed the trade acting as the owner of the Hornets rather than as the commissioner of the league. Owners veto trades their GMs make all the time - it's rarely a wise decision, but it happens, as Clippers fans are all too aware. And an owner would be well within his rights to veto a trade simply because he didn't want to help an opponent too much.
That's the only way I can see this veto staying in place - if Stern and the board of governors are acting solely as the owners of the Hornets, and not as the stewards of the league. Of course, it's impossible to disentangle one from the other in any real sense, but that should be Stern's position unless he wants to set a precedent with far-reaching consequences.
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In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
yep, I'm curious what the league will do
for any impending trade. No owner will be happy with CP3 moving to any team other than their own. I doubt they flex their muscles again, but maybe just for the hell of it, they should make a list of the teams they’ll veto trades to, would make it it easier for Demps. Off the bat I’d guess Knicks, Celtics, and HEAT are off the table.
Whoop!
I will sleep easy tonight knowing that we have tuff juice, and David Stern is perfectly fine with it.
Ill have nightmares
Of horrific potential injuries to our clippers…
knocks on wood
by JJClipperfan on Dec 8, 2011 10:11 PM PST up reply actions
an article at nba.com
touches on a lot of interesting points. for a minute there i thought D12 would be a Laker as well, it’s been floated that owners also feared this scenario playing out.
here
Working on a post re: Gilbert's letter
His position is laughable – totally indefensible.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
I can't believe the league intervened after the fact
What a mess
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
League didn't intervene - "ownership" did
Salient line from Gilbert’s letter: “This trade should go to a vote of the 29 owners of the Hornets.” The tax savings angle is…. curious. Looking forward to Steve’s post dissecting this letter.
Yes yes...
but then the “ownership” should have been involved in the negotiating process, long before it got to this stage. They should have quietly laid down the law. As it is, this is just a knee jerk reaction by a bunch of envious prima donnas.
Significantly, Hollinger argues that the NBA saved the Lakers from a bad trade, and stole a good one from Houston (who wanted to use the cap space to pursue Nene) and a very good one from NO. The ownership should have taken a step back and slept on this one.
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
It was only a bad trade
if the next step of the trade; which was obviously to get Howard, wasn’t successful.
"It's better to be an optimist who is sometimes wrong than a pessimist who is always right"unknown
But that wasn't going to happen
Again from Hollinger,
The owners were so upset about the possibility of Dwight Howard forming a “Super Friends” team with Paul and Kobe that they forgot the logistics of doing so.
Newsflash to L.A.: Andrew Bynum alone doesn’t get you Howard. Not even close. Trade Bynum and Gasol and you might get Howard, but you might not. A lot of teams are fishing in that pond and most of them have better bait.
…The irony of all this, in other words, is that the owners were so upset about the Lakers potentially getting Howard, that they nixed a trade that would have virtually killed any chance of that happening.
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
Howard
Could have signed as a free agent correct?
by JJClipperfan on Dec 8, 2011 10:31 PM PST up reply actions
Actually, no
But there was one big difference during the Melo chase last season: The Knicks were going to have cap space, so the leverage Anthony held was real. Trade me there now, or I’ll go there on my own later. In Howard’s case, the Lakers have no plausible means of signing him as a free agent, and they wouldn’t have had the trade assets to strike a deal with the Magic had they made the Paul deal.
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
mini MLE
If Howard wants to be a Laker for $3M per, he can do that in 2012.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 8, 2011 10:33 PM PST up reply actions
Egad, I suppose so
But what are the chances?
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
It's not a serious suggestion
But that is the situation without a trade.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 8, 2011 10:36 PM PST up reply actions
I got ya
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
And THAT is what the owners were after with the lockout, IMO
Put in place a system that is financially punitive enough to practically prevent a player from making such a decision. Realistically, the Miami Heat did it well within the rules and I don’t think a system with restrictions to prevent that from happening would be in anybody’s best interest – they got way below the cap, got 2 free agents to take slight discounts to fit within the number, and went over the cap to resign their own guy. The owners hate this “player forcing themselves out of a deal to go where they want” thing – the fact that it always seems to go small market to big market just makes it even less palatable to the “Washington Generals”.
However
That is not taking into consideration other possible moves the Lakers could have made to free up cap space?
Or maybe im just crazy
by JJClipperfan on Dec 8, 2011 10:52 PM PST up reply actions
Pretty crazy...
If they got rid of the entire roster except for Kobe and CP3, they’d still have about $44M tied up in those two. Cap will likely be $58M again. You need 10 cap holds, which add up to about $5M more. That leaves $9M for a D12 FA offer in 2012. And that’s getting rid of EVERYONE while taking back NOTHING. Not sure how you can even do that.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 8, 2011 11:02 PM PST up reply actions
That is the other element
Did this trade even make the Lakers better?
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Right
I think Houston made a mistake in the trade. I don’t get their side of it.
the Hornets came out great. Significantly better than any other offers as reported.
Lakers? Calculated risk. I actually think they should take back Okafor in it – they’re not going to find a better big than that. It’s about rings there.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 8, 2011 11:20 PM PST up reply actions
Rockets
I think they were trying to set themselves up with two top 10 big men by bringing in Gasol and Nene. The trade actually opened up a little more cap space to make a larger offer to Nene. The rest of the roster is kinda week but still looks like a playoff contender
yeah
The cap space they cleared was significant – but it only works if they land their guy.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 8, 2011 11:25 PM PST up reply actions
Right, a risky move indeed
A team that actually takes a risk to create an opportunity to immediately improve the team. Have the Clippers heard of this concept?
instead of nene
What if the Rockets did the trade and then went after Marc? The Gasol brothers! That would be pretty cool, no?
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 8, 2011 11:25 PM PST up reply actions
Right..
And then they trade for Rubio, Fernandez, and Calderon and create Spain West.
maybe their missing that china money already
gotta tap spain for their turn to pay up to watch and endorse all their players
Strongly disagree
Hou had the best of it. Gasoft plus cap space is so much more valuable than KMart2 and Scola. I don’t think it’s close.
But NOH actually got a very good deal (minus the separate Hou transaction), all things considered. LO and Gasol was much more than anyone else proposed. I can’t see anyone topping that offer from here on out (w/o an extension).
It was a smart move by the Lakers. CP3/Kobe/healthy Bynum would have been formidable. It would also have enticed D12 to make a stronger push to move west. There was lots of potential upside in the buzz itself.
So you're saying it's a win-win-win
In HOU’s case it depends on what they get with the cap space. Overpaying wildly for Nene is a dubious prize… but what if they don’t even get that? My original take was looking at the trade on it’s merits – I was ignoring the cap space, which was an oversight on my part.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
I thought it was a win-win
But when HOU came into the picture, NOH got a smaller win. I prefer to look at the HOU/NOH trade on its own merits and ignore who HOU decides to spend the extra cap space on. I am way in the minority on this though. Everyone seems to think HOU got the ass end of the deal.
Lakers History Sez
rhey want The Big Man. See Wilt, Abdul-Jabbar, O’Neal,
With this trade they clear space for 2011 and beyond AND still remain very competitive in 2011.
When CP3 walks to NY they have cap space to have another Big Fella come to Lakers. In a couple of season Bryant hands the baton to Howard.
The Dynasty continues.
You guys are anticipating Hollinger's entire article
The Lakers would have had an $8.9 million trade exception, but with no meaningful assets (and I mean NONE) to put in a trade, they were going to have a big problem using it to get anybody good.
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
Re the TPE
The Lakers could conceivably take on a terrible contract up to $8.9M – I’m talking someone who’s just stealing money right now – and trade for that bad contract with their TPE; and hope they would be able to get the other team to toss in an asset in that trade. That asset could then be packaged with Bynum in a Howard offer. BUT… still not enough. Right? Especially with amnesty. Any truly terrible contracts of that size will be waived under amnesty.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 8, 2011 10:40 PM PST up reply actions
not big enough
You can’t combine TPE’s with anything else.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 8, 2011 10:34 PM PST up reply actions
Agreed
In my mind, the only defensible position is that ownership is taking a hard line against letting players dictate terms/force their way out (see “Anthony, Carmelo”). If you’re going to do that as an owner, however, do it before you start entertaining offers, much less let your GM make a “handshake deal” on one.
Right, exactly
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
Yeah, regarding that "quietly laid down the law"...
I don’t understand how Dell Demps was operating without consulting his “owner”. Neil Olshey needs approval from DTS on every signing or trade, right? Of course. Was Demps operating under the assumption that he had the autonomy to make such a big deal without consulting any superior?
How did it get so far down the line without him checking for approval. Or was approval made, and then denied? (Like after the arrival of Dan Gilbert’s letter.)
This is nuts..
I don’t feel bad for the Lakers though, I’m actually kinda hoping they implode to the point where they are less competitive. It’s time for the Clippers to shine!
Line from Shaun Powell NBA.com
“…But this was a dubious trade on other levels, and the league found itself in a tough if not uncomfortable spot. No, the league didn’t fail when it killed the Chris Paul deal. The league failed because it still hasn’t dumped the Hornets on someone else to kill the trade, or send it through.”
http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/shaun_powell/12/08/chris-paul/
Loved the "can of worms" line
when I heard this, that’s the first idiom I thought of.
Man while I’m happy to shut up a bunch of lakers fans, I’m really not looking forward to the impending controversy. This is all just pretty ridiculous, and I almost wish the “owners” didn’t get invovlved.
nah I'm happy they got involved
because it seemed like the next logical step was a Howard to Lakers trade which would have been horrible.
"It's better to be an optimist who is sometimes wrong than a pessimist who is always right"unknown
make no mistake
intervention by the owners is a disaster. You can’t manipulate a competitive environment like this. What if 29 owners said “The Clippers shouldn’t get the MIN pick in 2012. they got the better player AND a great draft pick. It’s too one sided. It’s not fair to the rest of us.” This can’t can’t can’t happen.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 8, 2011 10:32 PM PST up reply actions
this is a business not a competitive environment
wine um, dine um, 69 um
by flightofthegriffin on Dec 8, 2011 10:34 PM PST up reply actions
The diffirence being the league doesn't own the clippers
maybe the better answer is that he league shouldn’t own a team because stuff like this happens. They need to either get rid of the Hornets or find an owner soon because the league can’t operate like this.
"It's better to be an optimist who is sometimes wrong than a pessimist who is always right"unknown
The league owning the Hornets
The fact that the league owns the Hornets is essentially incidental to this – or at least it is treated as incidental in Howard’s letter. His Washington Generals line works just fine if this trade had involved Dwight Howard and Orlando.
I think you could have made a reasonably clear headed case that “we the owners of this franchise do not think this trade is in the best interests of our Hornets franchise” – at least you could have tried. Gilbert didn’t do that. He said it was bad for the league, not bad for the Hornets.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 8, 2011 10:43 PM PST up reply actions
yea, I'm surprised
noticeably absent from his letter, was the fact that the Hornets were adding like 10+ mil to their salary. While thanks to new league minimums, they were bound to have to spend that money in someway, maybe it would’ve been good to argue the fact that the owners should have some say in where that money was spent.
Right...
The dilemma is that the league is wearing two hats, making “basketball decisions” as owners of the Hornets and “business decisions” as the league itself. They were careful to call the killing off of the trade as a “basketball decision”, but, and now I’ve said it at least three times, the Dan Gilbert letter clearly defines the killing of the trade as a “business decision”.
This is a MESS… and I don’t know how they’re gonna clean it up.
i'm wearing 2 hats.
literally….
and figuratively
As a clippers fan, i’m happy to hurt the lakers, and their fans. As a NBA fan, I agree, this is a mess. I’m curious if CP3 will be happy going anywhere else. They’d be best to get CP3 traded ASAP, and hope this all gets kinda swept under the rug. The longer this gets dragged out, the longer it looks bad on their part.
If the story about Howard going to the Nets is true...
I think the league does an about face and lets the trade happen.
“If this veto remains in place, New Orleans will surely be forced to take a lesser offer from another team – or worse yet, to do nothing until Paul walks away for nothing next summer.”
There is so much about this chain of events that we do not know, but what seems clear to me is that a majority (not all – just a majority) of the 29 owners are effectively saying, “we are prepared to take a loss on the investment we made in the Hornets in order to achieve a non-financial goal (which is either working toward competitive balance, or screwing the Lakers, whichever you prefer).”
Business owners make non-financial decisions all the time – it is their right to do so. By not accepting what many agree was a reasonable deal from the Hornets’ perspective, the 29 owners will pay for it later when they try to sell the franchise and they don’t have Paul nor any of the other assets they would have gained from the trade. The chances of getting their investment back just took a serious hit. But as irrational as it seems, that is their decision to make.
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein
by Another son of Mike Smith on Dec 8, 2011 10:49 PM PST reply actions
What if Paul refuses to report or files a lawsuit or both...
It’s not just about the owners screwing themselves, they’re screwing the players too…
I am not sure how I see this “screwing of the players” is any more than the players have been screwed in the historical systems in place. Owners have always been able to nix deals.
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein
by Another son of Mike Smith on Dec 8, 2011 10:56 PM PST up reply actions
That's the key question
Did the owners of the Hornets do this, or did the league?
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 8, 2011 11:03 PM PST up reply actions
The owners of the Hornets own other teams...
That’s fundamentally unethical. No sport would allow one owner to allow two teams. But the NBA has created exactly that situation. And the Gilbert letter indicates that as an owner of his second team, he (and his partners) made a decision that was not purely in the best interest of his second team, but probably in the best interest of his first. Foul.
As long as they all own a piece of it
I don’t really find it unethical. The alternative, letting the Hornets go bankrupt would be even more damaging. But they should resolve this issue as quickly as possible. But it is hard to sell a team when the status of one of it’s main assets is so unclear.
by BelgianClipper on Dec 8, 2011 11:06 PM PST up reply actions
FWIW, Anschutz owns multiple teams in Major League Soccer.
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein
by Another son of Mike Smith on Dec 8, 2011 11:08 PM PST up reply actions
as does Hunt right?
But MLS is definitely a special case. They wouldn’t exist without those guys. It’s not an ideal situation.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 8, 2011 11:11 PM PST up reply actions
Unethical, not illegal...
But the division of responsibility inside the league regarding management of the Hornets is certainly inadequate!
The problem is control, not ownership
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Yes
And if it is presented that way (without the ‘screwing the lakers part’) I’m kind of OK with it. They own the Hornets, they can do what they want.
But it smacks of meddling way beyond that. It’s a bad, bad precedent. The saving grace would be if it can be quarantined to the Hornets – i.e. NBA owned franchises. Find a friggin’ buyer and never put yourself in that situation again, Stern.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 8, 2011 10:55 PM PST up reply actions
“The saving grace would be if it can be quarantined to the Hornets – i.e. NBA owned franchises. Find a friggin’ buyer and never put yourself in that situation again, Stern.”
I agree completely, which is why I do not think you will hear any similar movement to kill the deal if Howard is about to go to the Nets, Lakers or anywhere else. Based on what we know right now, the League will say this decision falls well within their domain as Hornets’ owners – nothing more. As the owners of that team, they do not even need to provide a reason for nixing the deal. But in terms of public perception, Gilbert did no favors for himself, Stern or the other owners. But Stern can say “we cancelled the deal for reasons different than what Gilbert posted. It just happens to have the same outcome as what he wanted.”
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein
by Another son of Mike Smith on Dec 8, 2011 11:02 PM PST up reply actions
assuming this trade stays dead
Going to be kind of awkward in LA and Hou right?
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Dec 8, 2011 10:51 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Odom gave an interview to the Times, indicating how awkward it is to be traded, then untraded
Says he isn’t sure whether to show up for the first day at practice. He was on the verge of tears on the radio earlier today after learning he’d been traded.
I’m sure Pau is equally upset.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
What if we found out this trade was really nixed because of the Kardashians?
"I gotta have more cowbell!"
I just got home myself and have not read the other fanposts
but on the radio they are saying CP3 is livid and thinking about suing the NBA.
"I gotta have more cowbell!"
I would imagine so
I’d say he has a good case.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 8, 2011 10:55 PM PST up reply actions
I don't see how he can sue the NBA for anything
They haven’t broken his contract in any way.
If anyone could sue, it would be the Lakers and Rockets. But I haven’t heard anything from those camps.
Based on the tepid reaction of Lakers fans that I know, I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that the Lakers brass is not terribly upset about this reversal. Perhaps they got cold-feet? This really was a risky deal on their part.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
There is nothing to sue about. An ownership group changed its mind before the deal was concluded or even approved. It happens regularly in pro sports.
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein
by Another son of Mike Smith on Dec 8, 2011 11:03 PM PST up reply actions
That's what I believe, too
But if the Lakers believe that Stern nixed the deal to “maintain competitive balance”, or to prove a point to Chris Paul and any future player that wishes to manipulate which team they are traded to, I can see the Lakers having a case.
Chris Paul has NO case. He has no right to be traded if he wants to, and can be traded anywhere his team wants to trade him. As long as his contract isn’t violated, he really hasn’t any legal standing.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Chris Paul's attitude just solidifies Stern's argument
Stern doesn’t want players dictating where they want to go. It’s obvious that Paul REALLY wanted to go to the Lakers, otherwise he wouldn’t be pursuing legal action. (As if it weren’t too obvious before.) Under normal circumstances a player is under contract of the team that employs him. If the owner vetoes a trade then oh well. Back to business.
restraint of trade, collusion
It’s awkward to say the least that the league owns the Hornets. They’ll argue they were acting as owners of the franchise, not as a league. But how do you separate the two? In a court, it’s entirely possible that a judge and or jury would call bullshit on the “We’re just the owners of the Hornets” argument.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 8, 2011 11:06 PM PST up reply actions
I just don't see a problem with the owners colluding in anyway they wish
with regards to the Hornets.
At it’s core, the NBA is a profit driven league. A rising tide lifts all boats. A successful NBA benefits all of the owners. An argument could be made that a successful Lakers team makes the league, and owners, more money. So from that standpoint it may be in their interest to see the Lakers with a stacked roster.
They may have nixed the trade from the standpoint of their interest in the Hornets.
But as owners with an equal interest in the NBA itself, I imagine they can collude till the cows come home.
If anyone has a gripe, it would be the Lakers, assuming they are in anyway forlorn over the outcome.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Understood – if you get in front of a judge or jury then we can all cite examples where people can be swayed by anything. I am simply pointing out what I believe will be their legal position. And even though Gilbert wrote it in an email, he is just one of 29. All you need to find is fifteen owners who haven’t said or written anything incriminating and the end result is exactly the same (a cancelled trade which was at least 24 hours from being finalized) and the only real damage is in the realm of public perception.
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein
by Another son of Mike Smith on Dec 8, 2011 11:13 PM PST up reply actions
But..
Legal position aside, do you believe that there was collusion here? Do you believe that Chris Paul’s opportunities as a basketball player were limited by that collusion? I don’t think it’s that hard to make a case. Don’t know how it would go, but much less plausible suits go to trial every day – and win.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 8, 2011 11:22 PM PST up reply actions
I'm no lawyer
but I’d think that the owners would have to argue that they were acting in good faith to promote NO’s best interests. That is, they had the appropriate hat on when they made the decision. But that would be a difficult argument to make. NO got screwed by this.
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
I remember seeing it somewhere today in all the tweets but I don't remember where..
There’s actually precedence for a professional league (MLB i believe) do rescind a trade for the good of the league. I would think this would help any case the owners may have to defend.
but
Was this disallowed for the good of the league, or because the owners of the Hornets just didn’t sign off on it? Those are two different things. The first is far less defensible, I think. I’d be interested to know the precedent to which you refer. Was it in the 30s?
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 8, 2011 11:34 PM PST up reply actions
1970s - MLB - Charlie Finley and Bowie Kuhn.
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein
by Another son of Mike Smith on Dec 8, 2011 11:37 PM PST up reply actions
When was oscar robertson? when was andy messersmith?
Can we all agree that pro sports are a bit different now than when Finley owned the A’s?
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 8, 2011 11:39 PM PST up reply actions
You asked for a precedent. Forty years is not that long in legal circles.
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein
by Another son of Mike Smith on Dec 8, 2011 11:41 PM PST up reply actions
granted
Still, the status of the reserve clause at the time of that decision would seem to be germane.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 8, 2011 11:42 PM PST up reply actions
Agreed. I just don't know enough about it.
But I am confident we are all going to learn a lot more about it in the coming days.
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein
by Another son of Mike Smith on Dec 8, 2011 11:43 PM PST up reply actions
true dat
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 8, 2011 11:58 PM PST up reply actions
You beat me to it
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
I would imagine the owners would have attempted the first - thus "basketball reasons"
But given Gilbert’s letter I think they may be forced to head another direction.
Thanks ASOMS. I couldn’t remember the names of the players..
In that case, the decision would be the NBA's, as opposed to the NO owners
And man oh man, would THAT be a nasty precedent. Would any big market team ever be allowed to acquire a star again.
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
I think that many business owners make irrational decisions every day and employees’ opportunities are “limited” by that reality. So if you call that “collusion”, then yes… but no more than is normal in this business. I just don’t see this as being that unusual, except in the case of how it is being perceived by the fans who have a vested interest.
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein
by Another son of Mike Smith on Dec 8, 2011 11:29 PM PST up reply actions
FWIW, NBA TV just did a five minute phone interview with Caron Butler – seemed like a nice guy and he ended the interview with “I love LA!”
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein
by Another son of Mike Smith on Dec 8, 2011 11:30 PM PST up reply actions
Really?
You don’t see this as being that unusual? Can you justify that for me? When has anything like this happened? Bear in mind, the NBA’s spokesman said the trade was disallowed for basketball reasons. When have you ever heard that?
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 8, 2011 11:32 PM PST up reply actions
I have never heard the term “basketball reasons”, and I am sure they deliberately wanted to leave it vague while they formulate how they plan to defend and spin the decision. As such, it is impossible to tell (based solely on this) whether they will take the position that it was done for the welfare of the league or the team.
FWIW, I think I read somewhere that Stern does have a healthy amount of discretionary power in this area of protecting “the well-being of the league” that is immune from lawsuits and the like. I am sure this will be scrutinized closely.
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein
by Another son of Mike Smith on Dec 8, 2011 11:53 PM PST up reply actions
LOL "basketball reasons" is the new excuse catch phrase
For example: If your wife asks why you didn’t take the garbage out you just say “basketball reasons”
nice
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 8, 2011 11:59 PM PST up reply actions
Expect to see it a lot on twitter the next few days
It’s replaced “How U” with the basketball writers
I'm going to give that one a shot tomorrow
Boss: “Why are you late for work?”
Me: “Basketball reasons”
It is impossible to argue with. There is no good retort.
And while they try to figure out what “basketball reasons” even means, I’ll already be walking away.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
This is the NBA's plan
While we’re all scratching our heads trying to figure out “basketball reasons” Paul will be traded to the Celtics and everyone will just move onto the season
Stern
Stern’s never been shy about acting autocratically and preemptively.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 8, 2011 11:59 PM PST up reply actions
Woj is reporting that David Stern was unhappy with Chris Paul dictating where he wants to go
FWIW
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
This is what I think the real issue is
…but again, as SilverClip pointed out above, don’t let it get this far before putting your foot down, if that’s your stance.
And?
I mean, he can be upset… but he can’t do anything about it. There’s a CBA in place. It doesn’t say that players have to sign extensions. If he vetoed the deal because he thought Paul was too powerful then it’s truly a mess. That’s a non-starter.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 8, 2011 11:08 PM PST up reply actions
Exactly right...
The only right Stern had to cancel the trade was as acting-owner of the Hornets, not as commissioner.
He's not acting as David Stern, Commissioner
As an owner (or part-owner, or whatever), he’s making a stand that players can’t force their way out of situations they don’t like (which, coincidentally, all happen to be small markets). The player has signed a contract, too, and they are bound to honor the terms (i,e, wait until his ETO).
On a side note, how much does Stern hate the internet right now….. trade rumors, rogue owners leaking incendiary letters about blocking trades?
All NBA trades are "pending league approval"
I’m unclear about what latitude the league has in rejecting trades, or what recourse the teams involved would have if they disagreed with the rejection.
Is Stern the last word on trades? Wouldn’t surprise me if that were the case.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
So tell me
When was the last time the league disallowed a trade?
There’s a legal precedent that, even if you supposedly have a right to behave a particular way, if you never have behaved that way in the past and then you behave that way, it’s discriminatory. You can’t post a “no shoes no shirt no service” sign, allow 100 people into your restaurant without shirts and then kick out the 101st.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 8, 2011 11:27 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, I don't recall the last nixed trade
and I’m not sure what criteria a trade has to meet (or not meet) in order to be nixed. I’m just not sure what anybody can do about it.
Supposing that this was just the NBA (Stern) acting in their (his) interest, what is to stop him from doing so? I would like to know more about that.
If this wasn’t the “NBA’s” doing (or Stern’s ego), but rather, the ownership group of the Hornets acting either in the interest of either their primary team or their fractional team, I don’t see a legal problem.
There is certainly a conflict of interest, and the on undeniable thing is that the league owning the Hornets in the first place opens a HUGE can of worms. It was never a good idea.
Perhaps the Lakers have a case, but I don’t think Chris Paul does. The only time when he is free to choose which team he plays for is when he is not under contract (a free agent).
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
I don't even think the Lakers have a case. They can certainly be unhappy, but I think that is it.
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein
by Another son of Mike Smith on Dec 8, 2011 11:39 PM PST up reply actions
I would tend to agree
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
I think that's right
Assuming that it was the Hornet’s “ownership” that nixed the deal, for whatever reason, be it the benefit of the Hornets or the benefit of their primary team, it would seem that they were within their rights.
Even if it was a league decision, and the felt that it was in their best interest to block this trade, no matter how arbitrary, they (the NBA) are probably within their rights. League membership is voluntary. The Lakers belong to the NBA, and have a vested interest in the success of the NBA, and the NBA in the success of the Lakers. So it would seem that if the NBA is acting in its perceived interests, it would be difficult to prove that their actions were intended to be damaging to the Lakers.
I’m not a lawyer, but I am known to talk out of my ass. The above paragraph could be a big load jurisprudential crapola, but it lines up with my world-view, so I thought I would share it.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Also, I get a wee bit punch as the clock nears midnight
The morning me usually regrets the evening me.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Make that "punchy"
see what I mean?
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
I just saw this over at Silver Screen & Roll and had to post it here:
“LakersBlog_SSR: You have to love the irony in the league finally actually doing something rigged, and it goes against the Lakers”
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein
by Another son of Mike Smith on Dec 8, 2011 11:59 PM PST up reply actions
an interesting observation
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 9, 2011 12:00 AM PST up reply actions
I was thinking the same thing
It’s possible that the NBA would have loved to let it slide, but for the fact the team giving away the superstar happens to be co-owned by the other 29 owners who realized that
A) We’re about to get screwed by another lopsided Lakers trade again
B) We have veto power
Still lots of questions about the whole thing.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
it was absolutely "ownership" that blocked this deal
I believe that player transactions are due to commence sometime tomorrow early afternoon (2pm Eastern, I believe); therefore, this trade hasn’t even been submitted to the “league” for approval
I've always taken than to mean "provided all the numbers add up"
i.e. no weird clauses in anybody’s contract that aren’t being met, trade kickers not accounted for in balancing the salaries, etc. Never seen one rejected by the league cuz it didn’t pass the smell test…
Charlie Finley & Bowie Kuhn are going to get a lot of airplay in the coming days and weeks.
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein
by Another son of Mike Smith on Dec 8, 2011 11:31 PM PST up reply actions
I've gotta look this up....
Actually lived in Oakland when Finley owned the A’s… could see the fireworks from the coliseum when they won in ’74, but must have been too young to remember this (I assume this is the reference):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Finley#Finley_tries_to_dismantle_his_club
Yes. That is it.
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted" – Albert Einstein
by Another son of Mike Smith on Dec 8, 2011 11:54 PM PST up reply actions
trouble
That was 1974. Messersmith’s suit striking down the reserve clause (the Seitz decision) was 75. Robertson was filed in 1970, settled in 1976. Citing a legal precedent regarding players rights that occurred prior to those lawsuits would be like citing a precedent regarding racial discrimination prior to the emancipation proclamation.
As it happens, Finley/Kuhn was an owner behaving badly – but as it pertains to the impact on players, anything prior to the Seitz decision or Robertson is a non-starter.
I’m no lawyer, but I feel pretty certain on this.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 9, 2011 12:08 AM PST up reply actions
the nba stopping a trade is no different than a player doing it
chris paul wouldn’t accept being traded to teams like the clippers or nets. The NBA is trying to make competitive balance for all teams so they stopped him from coming to the Lakers. Seems fair to me, players shouldn’t be denying teams from trading them anymore than the NBA should allow a player to choose his trade of choice. I agree with the principle of this move in that players need to stop being babies and play where they’re paid to and try to win on whatever team that may be.
wine um, dine um, 69 um
by flightofthegriffin on Dec 8, 2011 10:57 PM PST reply actions
The only way this trade makes any sense to the Lakers
is if they where able to do a Bynum for DH. Paul + Kobe + Bynum isn’t a championshipteam.
I agree that Orlando would be made to do it but then again getting nothing for DH might hurt (a lot)
so it boils down
to how much leverage DH and the Lakers would have on the Magic. You could say Bynum doesn’t get DH. I wouldn’t do it if I was the Magic. But then again, what if DH made it quite clear he doesn’t resign anywhere except With the Lakers? Would anyone offer something better then Bynum for a half-season rental of DH? Orlando would only refuse that deal if they are willing to blow up the team. But with all their bad contracts it would take a few years minimum to get things sorted out. It could be quite appealing to accept Bynum and just be a borderline play-off team instead of a bunch of overpaid misfits in a new stadion the next few years.
by BelgianClipper on Dec 8, 2011 11:24 PM PST up reply actions
So the owners couldn't stomach this particular trade on their watch
even though it arguably isn’t imbalanced at all.
They’re being cry babies AND dumb. Pathetic.
The bottom line is that trades like this one are still going to happen (unless, heaven forbid, this really does set an intervening precedent). Players are sometimes going to be able to influence where they end up. To stop this trade doesn’t stop the larger trend at all, so why intervene at all? The owners have done is make a big mess without helping anything.
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
This situation...
reminds me of when I used to play fantasy basketball and everyone would veto every trade proposed. It looks like it will be hard to trade for any Hornets players while the league owns them. Either that or they want to shed as much salary as possible so the new owners come in with the ability to build their own roster.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
As a Clips fan
I think I would ideally like this overturned after a Howard trade to NJ. Maybe it is just me but a front court of Metta World Peace and Matt Barnes is far less intimitating and sets the their team backwards.
"I gotta have more cowbell!"
I think they have to have the Hornets make another trade for Paul as quickly as possible
KBergCBSKen Berger
A person close to Hornets organization tells @CBSSports it would be “very surprising” if Chris Paul reported to camp Friday.
They can’t let this continue. Have to try to move on now, right?
Hmm. Who wants him?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Don't know
I’d be scared to be the team that tried to get him. You know he doesn’t want to be there.
I'd think so
To what extent does signing Butler interfere with our effort to acquire Paul? I wonder if the ink might come off that deal as well.
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
doesn't interfere at all
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 8, 2011 11:24 PM PST up reply actions
I wouldn't go after Paul after this
he won’t resign
by BelgianClipper on Dec 8, 2011 11:27 PM PST up reply actions
Well, good. I'm too tired to think this one through, but
might so many big contracts deter Donald?
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
How does Demps make a deal...?
His owner just declared his deal no good for the franchise. So he’s gonna go out and finds another one? A better one? And the owners will approve it, probably only if it’s to a small market team (which won’t make a deal because Paul won’t sign an extension anyway!) Will the Lakers (and the Rockets) sit still for that? Lawsuits are flying right? Stern never gets the genie back in the bottle.
Ugh, yeah, it would be weird indeed if the owners allowed any Paul trade to a big market
That’s just crazy
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
Actually... small market...
If the Hornets make a deal with a small market team and their owners approve it won’t it serve as proof that the owner’s behavior was improper earlier? Oh my gosh, I’m getting confused.
LOL, I think you're right!
But what’s their supposed rationale now, if not what we all know it really is? I’ve gotta read that Gilbert letter.
"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT
So what about a trade to the Clippers
They’ re a big market but operate like a small market?
There is technically no ink as of yet
but I don’t see it having any effect on the Butler deal.
All of today’s moves have had an effect on what will happen with DJ. I’m glad that Houston has a little less cap space right now. But GSW will probably open the wallet for DJ.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
HOU
Houston has more cap space, right? KMart and Scola were both well paid.. then add in Dragic.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Dec 8, 2011 11:29 PM PST up reply actions
10-12Mil I believe
The trade would have given them about $3mil more to work with
I'm pretty sure
A major reason the Clippers were so concrete on their refusal to include anything decent in the trade. Wouldn’t be shocking if C.Paul was forcing the Lakers as the trade destination.
The Clippers are content with not doing a deal and most likely have moved on.
Off topic a little..
All this Paul trade talk has deflected us from the Clippers issues. Anybody else worried about what’s going to happen to DJ? I know a 4 year $48Mil offer will be coming from the Warriors tomorrow.
The Clippers most likely would match(?)
They valued him enough not to desire trading him. 4//$48 is steep, but I think within “expected reason”.
Look out for Houston and Denver
Their bidding war for Nene will leave the loser looking DJ’s way.
This is going to be a great summer for Deandre Jordan.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
I was thinking about this during the lockout
DJ had the be the player who was the most excited to get the season started. He’s going to make more in his first 10 games this year then he has in his whole career..
Its actually 10 million
The Warriors had hoped to sign Dallas Mavericks free-agent center Tyson Chandler, but he is nearing a four-year, $58 million agreement with the New York Knicks. While the Warriors’ offer sheet wasn’t finalized, one source said the team is prepared to begin Jordan’s contract at $10 million next season.
If it’s really 10 million, then we should match it in like a minute.
we’re cheap, like to drink and are pissed off.
Yeah 10 million is definitely overpaying
but it is matchable.
"It's better to be an optimist who is sometimes wrong than a pessimist who is always right"unknown
Random thoughts...this is just a pretty overwhelming day!
1. Doubtful (cause it’d be hard), but will this mean all future “super teams” are going to be blocked? Then even the Clippers getting C.Paul, D.Williams, or D.Howard would be banned in theory.
2. So this move is a de facto ticket for the Knicks to sign C.Paul…this move wouldn’t do anything in the long term of preventing super teams
3. It’s time for the Clippers to sign that extension with E.Gordon ASAP.
Given the extreme backlash of this decision
I’m guessing this is the last trade that will be vetoed and will not be a continuous policy
As if the team wasn't already dysfunctional
Just what the Kardashians needed
that was my thought
they HAVE to find a taker for Odom but not so for Pau.
strange how that is the case for Odom and however Pau is not in that same boat. I’m not yet sure on my reasoning behind that.
Energy * Focus * No Excuses
"For [Griffin]getting in the way of Andre Miller’s 40 yard dash?" -Steve Perrin
This is clearly a conflict of interest for the NBA
Sadly, there is no legitimate legal recourse available for any of the parties involved, since this was an “unofficial agreement.” The only legal recourse any party could have is an “anticipatory breach of contract” claim, but the party suing would have to prove that they “materially changed their position” in reliance to the agreed upon (but yet official) contract. It’s going to be hard for anyone to prove this, since the league acted within a few hours after the agreement broke! Plus, no team was allowed to sign players until tomorrow.
Maybe this is karma for the Lakers stealing Paul Gasol from Memphis?
"Every existing thing is born without reason, prolongs itself out of weakness, and dies by chance" -Jean-Paul Sarte
That is actually part of it
NBA owners weren’t happy about that deal. The fact that this was the Lakers played into it.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Dec 9, 2011 5:18 AM PST up reply actions
Well this is what we end up with

-Credit to RyanCaz, At The Hive
pretty damn funny
A 3rd team to step into the Lakers' position?
Let’s assume for a second that Stern wants to tick off just one owner, not 29. Stern could get away with having NO trade Paul to one of the 25 Washington General franchises which Gilbert referenced. The Clips are in a major market but have never been considered one of the elite or top tier franchise. What if the Clips or another lower tier team steps in the place of the Lakers OR could a fourth team be added to the mix to sweeten the deal for NO, thereby allowing Stern to save face and conclude that it met ‘basketball reasons’.
Yeah, I don't understand why the Rockets would want that deal.. They will get hosed!
"look, you can find any coach you want, bring him in here and run the situation. But I don't think they are going to do as good a job as I do." -Mike Dunleavy Sr.

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