Goodbye Baron, Hello Mo - Analyzing Williams for Davis
by Steve Perrin on Feb 24, 2011 7:51 PM PST
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PrintMy first reaction to this trade was very negative. Put it this way, I was lukewarm about it when I had only heard the names involved - so when I saw that the Clippers were losing this year's lottery pick in the process, I was pretty ticked off.
But the NBA is a complex landscape, and you have to temper your initial reactions and look at all of the implications. And the more I reflect on it, the less I dislike the deal. I'm still not crazy about it, but I get it. I see what they're doing, I see a plan in place, and the plan may even make sense.
From a basketball standpoint, the Clippers clearly got worse in the short term. I've never been a big fan of Mo Williams, and he's been flat out terrible this season. Amazingly, after suffering with the worst shooting point guard in the NBA for two seasons, the Clippers somehow managed to trade Baron for someone who is shooting significantly WORSE. How do you take Baron Davis, who's shooting just 41.6%, and trade him for someone who is actually shooting 3 percentage points WORSE? It's as if Olshey is trying to corner the market on guards shooting under 40%, with Williams (38.5%) joining Rasual Butler (32%) and Randy Foye (37%).
Of course Williams has been a better shooter than that in his career, and hopefully he will be again. In particular, the Clippers assume he'll find his three point stroke again. For the last two seasons getting kick outs from LeBron James, Williams made well over 40% of this three pointers. This season, he's at 26.5%. So here's hoping that kick outs from Blake Griffin work as well as kick outs from LeBron.
And for all of his shortcomings, Baron Davis has been a very good fit with this team this season, and a very key part of what little success they have had. His ability to deliver the ball to the right place at the right time can't be overstated for this team. We got a stark reminder of that last night when he sat out against the Hornets: on two different occasions Griffin was open for a lob - the first time Eric Bledsoe missed him high leading to a miss, and the second time he missed him low, leading to a David West steal. Baron connects on lobs when the target isn't open at all - when they're open, it's been essentially automatic this season.
Oh, and don't talk to me about 'getting younger.' Sure, Mo Williams is three years younger than Baron Davis. But at 28, Williams is likely already on the decline. So if a 31 year old Baron is better than a 28 your old Mo, there's no reason to believe that a 32 year old Baron wouldn't be better than a 28 year old Mo, etc. Trading 31 for 24 is getting younger: trading 31 for 28 is either about getting better or getting worse.
So from a short term basketball standpoint, I don't like this deal (though I do like Jamario Moon, as it happens). But this trade wasn't about short term basketball considerations, was it?
With a single transaction, the Clippers became players in each of the next two free agency markets. Because the current CBA is expiring and a new one is not yet in place, we can't get into any details about exactly what this trade enables or doesn't enable. But under the current rules, and we might assume that the future rules will be at least similar, it does little good to be 'a little' under the cap. If you're $5M under the cap, you're still competing with all the other teams and their mid level exceptions. So if you're under the cap, it's almost always important to get further under the cap. And that's what the Clippers have done here.
Will the team be able to lure a free agent to LA? We'll have to wait and see. I think that the LA Clippers, one year into the Blake Effect, are a significantly more attractive destination than they were before. I hope this isn't just about the next batch of mega-super stars in 2012 - Chris Paul and Deron Williams and Dwight Howard - that's a long time in the future, with a million moving parts including a brand new CBA which for all we know will include a "Franchise" tag between tying those players to their teams indefinitely. But cap space is cap space, and a decent free agent is probably more likely to help the team next season than that number 10 pick they gave up. (Especially, as Neil Olshey has pointed out, in a very shallow draft.)
That's assuming they use that cap space to actually sign a free agent. Olshey's comments following the trade also referenced the importance of resigning DeAndre Jordan and extending Eric Gordon. That's all true, but to imply that this trade facilitates those things any place other than in Donald Sterling's pocket book is misleading. Under the current rules, Baron's contract was in no way impeding the future signing of either of those players. It's outside free agents that become options post trade. Speaking of Gordon though, it should be pointed out that if the goal is to maximize 2012 cap space, under current rules you would not want to extend Gordon. If they wait, then he'll be on the books for 2012 for his Qualifying Offer of $5.1M; if they extend him, he'll be on the books for his new deal, which will of course be significantly higher. In theory, they can wait, offer the QO to Gordon, sign a free agent, and then resign Gordon. But it's a high wire act.
[Note by Steve Perrin, 02/24/11 10:47 PM PST ] Citizen John R points out that Gordon will in fact be on the books for 300% of his salary, even if they don't extend him. (I had misinterpreted Larry Coon's Salary Cap FAQ, the relevant section of which is here.) Which means that any thoughts of a significant amount of cap space in 2012 to use to go after Deron Williams or another major star are probably unrealistic. The re-signing of DeAndre Jordan combined with the cap hold for Gordon ($11.5M by the 300% rule) would take a significant bite out of their available space, not to mention that they will no doubt have other players on the books between now and then. The trade still reduces salary commitments for 2012, and thus increases cap space, but I'm hard pressed to see how it would provide enough space to make a run at those players given the environment likely under a new CBA.
One benefit of this trade that you may not have thought about previously: the Clippers now have absolutely no incentive to tank the rest of the season. Many an economist would decry the NBA draft as a moral hazard, rewarding teams for performing poorly. With no 2011 draft pick, there is no moral hazard, no disincentive to winning as many games as possible, no incentive for losing games. Of course, with Mo Williams playing point guard, there may be other issues in winning games, but at least we know that Vinny Del Negro will be trying his hardest to get as many wins as possible done the stretch.
In the end, the most disappointing thing about this trade to a Clippers fan is undoubtedly the lost opportunity, as Citizen Zhiv alluded to in his earlier post. I vividly remember July 1, 2008, when the news broke that Baron Davis would be signing with the Clippers. It felt like the beginning of a new and glorious era for the Clippers. A week later, Elton Brand was in Philadelphia, and we're still waiting for that glorious era to begin.
Of course, we're probably closer to that glorious era now than we were then, only it's now called the Blake Griffin era. We should bear in mind that any moves are relatively small ball, as long as Griffin and Gordon are still here, and the Clippers still have the assets and flexibility to add the right pieces around them. I don't think this deal brought in particularly good pieces, but it added financial flexibility, which is a good thing. In the final analysis, the end of the Baron Davis era is helping to facilitate the Blake Griffin era.
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facilitate and protect
baron was the one guy who really got into other guy’s faces for those unsportsmanlike fouls. hopefully someone steps up in that aspect
Damn... I'm going to miss that.
I’ll keep cheering for Baron, no matter where he is. He’s earned that much.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
i think it'll be easier for me to cheer for baron
He was probably at one point one of my favorite players, but it’s been hard to cheer for him the past few years.
gerald wallace
we should’ve gotten wallace with the Clips 2 future pics and some other guys except kaman,dj,bg,ej and bd. should’ve solved the SF issue and improved the defense.
by Jakespeed on Feb 24, 2011 8:14 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Clippers didn't have the expiring contracts
The Bobcats traded Crash for one reason, to save money, and the Clippers couldn’t match what Portland gave up after the Baron deal. They could not have traded a 1st round pick until 2013 so no deal.
However, had the Clippers not traded Baron, then they could have dealt Sool, Smith, Cook, their 1st round pick and used their remaining cap space to get Wallace. That would have been an interesting possibility that would seem to trump what Portland gave up. Of course that deal would have cost the Clippers money rather than saving it.
Not sure that trumps Portland's offer
Cook’s deal still has one more year. The expirings Portland gave up totaled about $9MM. Sool and Smith total $4.7MM. And Portland gave up 2 #1s. Their offer would’ve beat ours unless we were willing to part with this year’s pick AND the Minny pick.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
What trumps Portlands offer is the use of the Clippers' cap space.
Taking back less total salary is better than taking back expiring contracts. Also, the picks Portland gave up aren’t worth much (NO’s 2011 pick and Portland’s 2013 pick, both heavily protected).
I can live with the trade
Of course it will hurt more if it ends up being a top 3 pick. What really gets me is hearing Olshey saying the can use the extra cap space for DJ and EJ. How about adding another player? You know this team is only going to win 30 games or less. Griffin is great. But it would help attract Free Agents if you actually won some games.
Would the Clippers actually tell EJ this summer that they won’t offer him an extension because it will help save some cap space in 2012? Would EJ buy into that? I don’t think any player would feel comforable about waiting an extra year for a guaranteed contract.
Olshey
is pandering to the less informed. Most casual fans don’t know about things like bird rights etc. If he just blurted out that the team would save x amount of money the next two years I doubt the casual fan would be happy.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Feb 24, 2011 8:17 PM PST up reply actions
True
It would have been nice to hear him say something like " This trade gives us some flexability to add a couple of more pieces the next couple years. Along with re-signing EJ and DJ."
OK just read the FanPost with some of Olshey's responses
Guess he did kind of say that:
And, more than anything, not just Mo at the position but what we’re gonna be able to do with the additional cap flexibility to secure players on our current roster as well as be a player in the free-agent market not just next summer but the summer following, which is an opportunity we would not have had if [Davis] was still under contract."
I feel a little better, but I’m still not sold. Still has the ugly stench of DTS wanting to get rid of Baron at any cost.
Right - he's not pandering to the "casual fan" (whoever that is) as Chuckles suggests
The negativity is lame and ill-informed
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
I think the casual fan is one who watches for Blake Griffin dunks
by Ricekrispy10 on Feb 24, 2011 9:30 PM PST up reply actions
Speak for yourself
I watch for the Clippers free throw clinic
by VA Dallas Fan on Feb 25, 2011 7:38 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Steve basically made the same point
The quote Steve and Beasel use by Olshey are disingenous at best and a serious fan (like those on this blog) know that’s B.S.
by Michael White on Feb 24, 2011 9:42 PM PST up reply actions
Actions speak louder then words
Olshey should have a chance to do something this summer. Let’s see what happens. Will he have the guts to add a player even if its a bit risky and makes getting a player in 2012 a little more difficult? If not he’s probably just DTS’s lap dog
Do you really not know or are you just playing stupid
This trade has absolutely nothing to do with being able to resign DJ and EJ.
I know this; Chuck knows this; and if you aren’t stupid you know this.
So why tie them together, except to lie to the people who don’t know this?
That's not all he said
And to be able to resign the FAs we are going to need to attract other players and set the team up for success. To me that’s what this is all about. BD was an albatross IMO.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Baron was not an albatross
for one the Clips had massive cap space last year, the failure to land a good free agent is on the FO and the history of the club.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Feb 24, 2011 11:14 PM PST up reply actions
Not talking about last year cap space
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
then Gomes and Foye are albatrosses as well
since they are the ones who took up that valuable cap space.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Feb 24, 2011 11:46 PM PST up reply actions
Apples and oranges
I can see you’re all broken up about losing that leader BD and that $14M contract. Sorry for your loss
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Gomes and Foye are indeed albatrosses
That is undeniable. In fact, probably more so than Baron, because at $8m, they are untradable.
I’m fine with moving Baron for Mo and Moon. I regret losing the lotto pick, a trade chip, but it isn’t killer.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
I don't think Gomes and Foye deals are albatrosses
As players they aren’t very good but those deals are cheap.
Foye’s contract ends after next year anyways. Gomes will be paid 4 million in 2012 – 2013 but you can move that sort of deal fairly easily.
The Clippers are probably too cheap to do it but if they gave some team a couple million, they could likely get them to take Gomes off their hands in 2012 – 2013.
by connseanery on Feb 25, 2011 10:36 AM PST up reply actions
Yawn
DJ and EJ resigning has nothing to do with the trade. This doesn’t effect them in the slightest. Olshey is just trying to fool joe public into thinking that trading Baron was a necessity to resign DJ and EJ and that’s not true at all.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Feb 24, 2011 11:17 PM PST up reply actions
Out of shape
Here’s simplistic thinking: Baron earned approximately $1 million per month, but did not have the work ethic, nor motivation to start the season in shape! Let the Clippers make small moves now that add up to big moves later. Steve, Thanks for the “Big Picture” you and Zhiv have provided us!!!
Not too thrilled about this trade
Let’s see how Mo and Moon play tomorrow. I’m sure they’ll want to play better now that they are out of Cleveland and in LA with Blake Griffin.
The FO better not strike out on the 2012 draft, or else this was a waste of a good and fun PG in Baron Davis
by Ricekrispy10 on Feb 24, 2011 8:28 PM PST via mobile reply actions
lets be honest here
the Baron Davis era has been a bust if he would’ve stayed it here it would be 3 yrs of us not sniffing the playoffs… i don’t like the trade either but im not crying over a guy who spent most of his time here unmotivated and out of shape who happens to play hard now because of Blake… any other team would have been giving the benefit of the doubt but since we are the Clippers we don’t know what we are doing i’m willing to think the new guys running the show have a plan in place lets see what happens
by Brian Ahmed on Feb 24, 2011 10:48 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
what this trade enables
Because the current CBA is expiring and a new one is not yet in place, we can’t get into any details about exactly what this trade enables or doesn’t enable.
Isn’t that what Clips Nation is all about :)
But seriously: Can somebody please make defensible assumptions about how much cap room we’ll have this summer, what unrestricted free agents will be out there, how much they’ll likely command, and how probable it is they’d leave their current team?
Off the top of my head I see three options, none all that sexy, but all likely to put us in a position to make the playoffs next year if the team is healthy:
- AK47
- Tayshaun
- Tough Juice
- Peja
…you add one of those guys to a 2-3 year deal, re-up DeAndre and EG (and wave bye to cap room for a long while), commit to the young core growing steadily (as they will) and you’ve got a legit playoff rotation with depth in the backcourt, frontcourt and wing.
With that core in place, if a superstar-wants-out situation arises, we can always package the Minny pick with someone besides BG and take another leap forward. In the meantime, the young guys actually win some games and even get playoff experience.
er, four options
or you can just take Peja off the list :)
or add Battier
He’s still unrestricted this summer, right?
No way that dude stays in Memphis.
Yes Please.
Couldn’t ask for a better glue guy.
by Incognito310 on Feb 25, 2011 8:49 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
How is AK47 not sexy?
Dude looks like a tranny!
We are the Clippers! What else is new?
by Jayq on Feb 24, 2011 8:33 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
oh snap
hahahah nice
Pain Don't Hurt
by GriffinNayshun on Feb 24, 2011 11:10 PM PST up reply actions
He needs to go back to the Ivan Drago look
"He has a tenacity to win and a tenacity to be out there and just kill people." -Baron Davis, on Blake Griffin
by Raining Buckets on Feb 25, 2011 10:27 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Really too hard to tell with the CBA pending
Clippers will probably be around $46M going into the offseason. And that’s before re-signing DJ. If the cap was at $58 like it is this year that would give the Clippers alot to work with. But it won’t be. Owners had said they want it at $45M.. So between $50 – $52 seems reasonable. Is that enough to get one of those guys? Maybe, remember if the cap is alot lower it hurts every team. No team will have alot to work with this offseason. And the free agents will be really hurt. Less suitors = less money. And it’s possible the MLE may be eliminated which would get rid of every team over the cap. The hope is that it’ll be all worked out quickly but I doubt it. We may not see any NBA basketball before December next year. It’s all very depressing to think about.
Perfectly said Steve
In the final analysis, the end of the Baron Davis era is helping to facilitate the Blake Griffin era.
Classic!
We are the Clippers! What else is new?
i remember that July very well.
a few weeks later, Manny got traded to the Dodgers. what a time of optimism! i was traveling outside of the country and i relied solely on Clipsnation and my friends in the states to keep me updated.
of course i’m skipping the part about EB jumping ship…
A short term basketball standpoint
Good initial analysis. Gives us something to work with. I’d like to know more about Mo Williams, and there are some good questions about how J Moon fits, but all in good time.
The thing that I wonder about, from the short term basketball standpoint, is Baron’s health and his knee, after he was overplayed, by seeming necessity, on the road trip. I don’t know about Mo Williams’ health status, another question. But BD didn’t respond to the rest of the All-Star break, and playing on Tuesday night only made a bad situation worse. One assumes that VDN sat him on Weds because Olshey told him to, although BD didn’t know anything was up until after the game.
So in the short term I don’t think we were going to see the January-early Feb BDavis in the immediate future. He might have been doing okay if he sat until Gordon comes back, probably early next week. But it’s not a big deal. The bigger issue is that BD ran into trouble when he started playing more minutes. Again, it’s a manageable issue, and might have been addressed with a rigorous summer program, which I think BD would have pursued, after his embarassing and unfortunate effort this year.
As much as I wanted to see the improved version of BD, Gordon and Griffin, and Kaman all playing together along with DJ and Bledsoe, etc., it wasn’t going to make a difference about this year. So why not take a look at something different?
It’s really all about how well Mo Williams shoots. SP makes a great point about the missed opportunities, non-Baron Clippers unable to deliver the ball the Griffin. That isn’t good. Lacking a great, or even a really good, passer, is a problem. But if Williams, Gordon, and Kaman all shoot the ball well, that should make a big difference and be fun to watch.
Then there’s Moon.
Moon should start over Gomes immediately
I’m excited about that part.
I imagine that Baron knew something was up when he was benched on the eve of the trade deadline. Vets know what’s up. He probably didn’t know it was Cleveland though, or he may have had Olshey whacked before the deal could be completed.
I’ve noticed that teams often end up making trades with teams they have traded with before. Remember, the Clippers and Cavs made a mini-deal last year, sending Telfair to Cleveland in the Thronton trade. Ainge and Presti reconnected to pull off the Boston/OKC trade. Houston and Memphis have been trade partners in the past, both times for Battier, I believe. Familiarity helps a deal get done, and I imagine Olshey and the Cavs dude are comfortable working with each other (but I hope this doesn’t mean there are too many more deals to be done with the Cavs. Other than Sessions, their cupboard is bare).
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Moon won';t start over Gomes
Come on. Not that Gomes is a great player, but you need at least the potential for offense at the SF
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
here's what me and EJ think
“Whenever he wants to come to play and play hard, you can see the difference.”
That’s all we need to know about BD. Good riddance.
by Cay.Clipper1 on Feb 24, 2011 9:37 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
yep a good 3 month stretch don't erase 2 1/2 seasons of not living up to.his contract with the Clips
we all keep acting like Mo is gonna be the starting point guard maybe this move is allowing Bledsoe to fully develop now
by Brian Ahmed on Feb 24, 2011 11:57 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
One thing I think is positive
is that Mo Williams was willing to change his contract to come to the Clips. It might not mean much but shows the guy does want to be with the Clips. If he can get close to his Lebron-era self I think he’ll quite allright. The Baron to Griffin ally-ups were brilliant but I like the overall skill-set of Mo Williams better.
I was also getting a bit worried about BD’s knee. It has been bothering him a while now and there seemed to be no improvement.
The long run implications are murky at best.
I also find it funny that people are ready to evaluate this trade on basis of how the pick will turn out. The FO made a honest assessment: they didn’t liked this draft so they decided to part with the pick. Yes it could be a number one pick but honestly that would be just bad luck.
As an economist it is ,nice to see moral hazard mentioned but I don’t think it really applies. Granted it is similar.
Anyway as this was my first trade deadline it was mighty entertaining (the Celtic-giveaway was priceless).
Did I miss something?
How did Mo Williams change his contract to join the Clips?
He took the maximum amount of money he could get.
How generous of him!
Yeah
Talk about disingenuous. Like Mo Williams was ever going to use an ETO that is worth $17M when he’s having the worst season of his career and the league is staring at a lock out. The ETO was a complete non-issue.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Feb 24, 2011 10:33 PM PST up reply actions
If that's true then why did the FO seek his agreement?
Are you saying Olshey is stupid?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
It has been in a political way
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
Maybe
If the Clippers were afraid that Mo would opt out and we would be left without a point man, that is silly. Mo ain’t going anywhere. I’m not sure why there was a need for him to waive the ETO.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Maybe you should just give the benefit of the doubt to the FO
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
I know it isn't really that big of an issue
but he did it anyway to facilitate the trade. He would get paid anyway, in Cleveland or in Los Angeles.
by BelgianClipper on Feb 24, 2011 11:49 PM PST up reply actions
Good point
The key is that Williams got caught in a situation where he had trouble proving his value. Kind of a lot like Baron Davis.
If Lebron stays, and Williams goes to the playoffs again, he has a chance to hit shots and show that he’s worth the money. When Lebron leaves he’s a highly paid guy on a bad team, defenses make things tough on him. He gets hurt on top of that.
BD’s record as a Clipper is a similar set of unfortunate circumstances. He joins the Clippers and FElton leaves, but they get Camby. But then Camby is hurt, BD himself gets hurt. ZBo arrives in trade, but then Kaman gets hurt. The same thing happens over and over. BD’s big, final shortcoming, however, was not rallying with Griffin and DJ over the summer, when Griffin was coming back strong from his injury. Instead BD was depressed about lost season number two and took off, not realizing the type of opportunity he was about to have. And in so doing, he didn’t act like a guy who was getting paid 12+ million to lead a team, especially one with a lot of young talent and a new coach. It took him by surprise. Then the cycle started up again: injuries to himself, injuries to others, etc. That’s why he’s gone.
by citizen zhiv on Feb 25, 2011 7:29 AM PST up reply actions
Couple of thoughts
First, BD I think caused many of his own problems. He is a professional basketball player making $14 M / year and I am not sure why we care that he’s depressed. He needed to man up, put basketball first, and just play.
My own theory on that is that his chronic injuries and declining physical status made it impossible for him to sustain it. Others think it was more mental. Perhaps it was somme combination of the two.
I don’t think that you are making a clinical diagnosis of depression here. At least I hope not.
Second, BD is a better tplayer than Mo Williams
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Davis record as a Clipper
.
2008- Clippers W.19- L.63 – Played in 65 games- missed 17 games, team was 3/14.
Davis played in 16 games that the Clippers won.
2009- Clippers-29- 53 – played in 75 games- missed 7 games, team was 2/5
Davis played in 27 games that the Clippers won.
2010-Clippers -21-37-played in 43 games –missed 15 games, team was 3 /12
Davis played in 18 games that the Clippers won.
Total Games Davis played in and the Clippers won for almost two 3/4 years -61 games
Davis signed a 5year contact for $68,000,000 with $28,000,000 due the last two years.
The Clippers paid him approximately $37,000,000 which equates to over $ 600,000 per game that the Clippers won.
It is bullshit that anyone would feel sorry for Davis who was never in Basketball shape for any length of time. He didn’t care about the clippers fans he got his money. Davis created the Davis beard, Davis shoes and was a movie producer. He conned the Clippers fan and only after Sterling called him out did he start to play. He played up his passing to Griffin and his move was to be in the limelight like he was helping Griffin, like Griffin ever needed him.
Let’s move on, the con man faker is gone. He was the reason that the Clippers got off to a terrible start which they can’t recover from, another lost year for the Clipper fans.
hmmm
Seems like maybe you’re the one that needs to move on.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Feb 24, 2011 10:46 PM PST up reply actions
Not sure that's fair
Alot of us did not appreciate BD’s lack of effort here, including (apparently) EJ. Some fans express their anger differently than the rest of us. I’m not defending this particular fan, but I can certainly understand the fact that he’s upset at the lack of effort.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
or blinded about how bad the team actually has been
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
Davis faker
Totally agree with Vegas Mike. Not sure why anyone would defend this chipmunk who sat out several games with a “bruised tailbone” last year. LOL.
by ClipperAnalyst on Feb 25, 2011 1:08 PM PST up reply actions
Keep your insults to yourselve.
You have a knack to insult people who don’t agee with your bullshit .
You are a center fielder in little league.
Sorry a Type Error
Keep your insults to yourself
He gave up his option to opt out of his contract this year
Which isn’t a big deal because he wasn’t going to anyway. No one is giving Mo a new contract at $8.5M a year anymore.
he had an early termination offer to walk after this season and took it away.
oshey apparently views him as an asset, and not someone he’d want just leaving. i mean he had 2 years and what 17 million left, but it was entirely possible he could have got say a 5 year 30 million deal if he left (sort of like what richard jefferson did last year).
so he did commit to actually staying after this year.
This year
When MoWill played 30+ minutes this year he played really well in all but a few games: ie 20 points or close, and 8-9+ assists
supposedly he has had a hip injury all year.
people think he was only decent because of lebron, but he was just as good on the bucks without lebron which is the reason he got a 6 year 50 million dollar deal to begin with.
he’s averaging the same number of assists as baron this year , on a team without blake griffin / dj to throw easy lobs to.
so maybe given we havent seeen him as the facilitator on a team since pre lebron he might be a half decent passer…
The Davis for Williams swap is mostly a wash, I give both Williams and Moon a pass for this year
The trade means nothing. moki summed up best when he said, “eh”.
The tragedy is now that we see how good Griffin and Gordon have been, this team could have easily made the playoffs this year. Instead of stockpiling talent, they are sending it away hoping to target, reportedly, a 30 year old Tayshaun Prince.
It will be interesting to see the “get younger” crowd square that one away.
So you are saying that BD is a talent the Clips should be stockpiling
at $14 M a year, a 32 year old rapidly aging injury prone PG? Egads.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
what about the pick?
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Feb 24, 2011 11:09 PM PST up reply actions
So John R suddenly wants to stockpile rookies?
That’s against his “philosophy.” No, he’s been caught here just being negative.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Yah such a "tragedy"
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
MoWill will feel right at home
He misses an average of 15 games a season. I guess that’s technically an upgrade over Baron but couldn’t we land a healthy body?
The Clips should have asked for Sessions
How ironic (not the true definition of ironic, but the misused definition): Right team, wrong trade.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
How do you know they didn't?
Both sides have to agree, after all. I can easily imagine Olshey asking but the Cavs balking at giving up the younger, cheaper, and arguably better player.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
The Cavs like Sessions
Alot of teams asked about him and the Cavs didn’t pull the trigger. Byron Scott has already said that Baron will start out backing up Sessions. And Sessions said he looks forward to playing with Davis. Both on the floor together. He’s shown the Cavs enough this season that he will be part of their future.
You're right, I don't know if they asked or not. I'll rephrase.
They should have demanded Sessions or no deal. Cleveland mostly wanted the pick.
But I’m fine with the trade as it is. It just doesn’t excite me. Sessions would have inspired me more.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
We need someone who can shoot the three
That is Sessions’ achilles heel. He’s not a starter in the league.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
it does kinda hurt
to see many other pieces being moved yesterday that I probably would’ve rather had. Brooks, Battier, Wallace, even Perkins (if we traded Kaman). Not even mentioning Deron Williams, and all the knicks.
Rockets fans are reeling after landing Thabeet. You think they’d be way more happy with Kaman for Battier and Brooks? I think so. Crash gets moved for expirings and 2 probably late first round picks? I know we didn’t have enough expiring contracts, but probably enough to get it close, or a real asset and a better first rounder. Just seems like there were other players available. Maybe we did everything we could and just didn’t have the right pieces, but it just feels like there were deals out there we missed out on.
I’m am finding that i’m really trying to talk myself into believing williams and moon will make our team better, but usually if I have to do that it’s a bad sign. I had to talk myself into outlaw/blake, and gomes/foye…. and VDN… I did like moon in toronto, but don’t think he’s a starter. Hopefully Mo regains some swagger after getting out of the pile of rubbish lebron left in his wake. But again, this is just me talking myself into some guys that never really wowed me. Not taking their contracts into account, i’d probably rather have trout and blake back.
Don't sweat it too hard
While it was indeed annoying to see all those other teams making cooler moves than ours, the only player on the list that would have truly fit the Clippers needs is Deron Williams, and there was no way to acquire him.
I am not very excited about the FA class, but having cap room also opens up offseason trade opportunities. I doubt that Denver will keep both Gallo and Chandler, and will use the remaining games this season to evaluate who stays and who goes.
"He has a tenacity to win and a tenacity to be out there and just kill people." -Baron Davis, on Blake Griffin
by Raining Buckets on Feb 25, 2011 10:40 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
If they wait, then he'll be on the books for 2012 for his Qualifying Offer of $5.1M; if they extend him, he'll be on the books for his new deal, which will of course be significantly higher.
I’m lazy right now, but I’m pretty sure if they don’t extend he’ll be on the books for 3x his previous salary, or like $15M.
You're right...
The relevant section is here. I got confused by this part:
A restricted free agent counts against his team’s salary cap by the greatest of:
* His free agent amount (as defined in the table above)
* The amount of his qualifying offer (see question number 37)
* The first year salary from any offer sheet the player signs with another team (see question number 37)
I was looking at the second item, but in the table, it specifies the 300% of salary thing. That would make EJ’s cap hold $11.5M, making any thoughts of CP3 or DWill moot (unless of course we want to renounce rights to EJ).
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Feb 24, 2011 10:45 PM PST up reply actions
Even with EJ's hold of 11.5 or whatever extension they give him
the Clippers commitments for 2012 – 2013 are still reasonable and should be below the cap whatever it is for 2012 – 2013. Also Mo’s 8.5 in 2012 – 2013 is a lot easier to deal with than 15 million for Baron regarding say a potential buyout situation if they chose.
It all really depends if Olshey signs any deals that extend into the 2012 – 2013 season. Perhaps he goes with one year deals this summer if the plan is to go after a big name the summer of 2012.
Should have gone with one year deals in 2010
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Which is why the only likely way to score a big fish will be via trade
The Clippers need to hang on to draft picks in order to make that happen.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
I don't think Gordon is taking the Qualifying Offer
No one in their right mind’s would take a qualifying offer if they are a Restricted Free Agent. Did I miss something here, wouldn’t Gordon be an RFA after 2011-12? The Clips would have to match whatever contract he gets on the open Market. There’s too much risk for a player to take a Qualifying Offer, of course Gordon will test the market. Obviously everything is up in the air regarding Future Contracts, taking a Qualifying offer into consideration is a moot point.
This is going to be my team, and we're going to rise together.
-Clipper Darrell
Not that he'll take the QO...
All I’m saying is that the Clippers would secure their rights to him as an RFA by extending the QO. The point is moot though, because John R is correct that EJ will count for 300% of his previous salary against the cap, meaning that he’ll be a big number ($11.5M in that scenario) no matter how you slice it.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Feb 24, 2011 10:43 PM PST up reply actions
Interesting. So is our assumption that DJ’s cap hold is the QO, incorrect?
by Michael White on Feb 24, 2011 10:44 PM PST up reply actions
Since DJ was a 2nd round pick
even 300% of his previous salary wouldn’t be a crippling cap hold, since he’s only making $850K this year. Shouldn’t keep us from being able to sign a starting 3 (usual don’t-know-what-the-cap-will-be disclaimer here).
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
DJ's Cap Hold = $1.8M
If I read the table SP linked, DJ’s cap hold will be double his current salary (2 * $854K = $1.8M). He would be a Larry Bird free agent making less than the average salary.
That leaves the team with a cap number of $47-48M (after rescinding Bird rights to Sool, Rhino and Moon). That should be plenty of room to sign any of the available SF’s using the current salary cap. But if the cap drops significantly (or DJ signs an offer sheet quickly), then it may not be enough space.
DJ's Cap Hold is $1.7M
Can’t believe I screwed up the easiest piece of math in that post. The cap number varies a little depending on whether one assumes the Clippers will pick up Willie Warren’s option ($47.6M if they do).
Not sure about this.
But I think free agency works like this. Free Agency begins on July 1st but contracts aren’t officially signed until July 8th. You always here about what signings are going to be made that week but they aren’t official until the 8th. Therefore, the Clippers should have enough time to make an agreement with someone and have it submitted to the NBA on the 8th before an offer sheet is offered to DJ by another team. If they have the space of course. Will a restricted DJ be any teams no. 1 priority this offseason? Enough that they’ll have an offer in on the first day?
This is the scenario we should hope for
A quick signing on day one, but this time a better player than Gomes or Foye – we shall see.
not much...
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on Feb 25, 2011 12:33 AM PST up reply actions
sad day
I remember the summer Baron joined us, we had 3 Davis’ (inluding Ricky and Paul)
I figured buying a Davis jersey would be a good investment since one was bound to stick around. Let’s just say i’m glad I didn’t, hahaha.
I wonder how the Antawn (Jamison) Effect will work on Baron in Cleveland.
Bledsoe better improve drastically. We are going to have a gaping hole in the PG position. Moon is not the answer either for the SF position, but he’s better than Gomes. This isn’t Elgin Baylor, so I’m hoping the FO has a real plan..not just clearing space for nothing. With Utah and Denver reduced to lottery teams we have to make the playoffs and produce. We can’t have another year of the doldrums.
This is a good trade
It’s a shame the Baron Davis era ended like this, and I think it’s terrible that we sent him to Cleveland of all places. But this is a good trade. We saw Baron play in Oklahoma, he couldn’t move laterally. Now after a few years of Baron we should know that his knee is bothering him, that he’ll likely need rest to get it healthy again, and we have no point guard to run the team if he indeed needs to sit. Eric Bledsoe is a solid rookie, but he can’t run an NBA offense. So I’d say in the short term (this year) we’re better since we now have a point guard. Now Mo Williams is an equal to Baron IMO. He’s a better shooter and less turnover prone. His passing skills are probably a tad poorer but I’d guess his perimeter defense is better which is something we desperately need. Moving forward we still have two years left on his contract. But he’s quite a bit cheaper that Baron. Giving up a 1st round pick is rough, but this draft is considered weak and we don’t need anymore youth. So congrats to Neil Oshley, I think this a good move and I’m excited to see how Mo fits into the team.
Some good points, but I wouldn't mention "Mo Williams" and "perimeter defense" in the same sentence
"He has a tenacity to win and a tenacity to be out there and just kill people." -Baron Davis, on Blake Griffin
by Raining Buckets on Feb 25, 2011 10:46 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
time to move on (without baron)
being a long suffering clip fan, as we all are, i was excited when baron was signed…it has been 1 big letdown ever since…baron is and im not sorry that he is gone…but i would be happy to see any player who is under-performing traded…baron is no exception…he has a bad knee that is not getting better…a bad back…an “iffy” attitude…for me the tipping point was not showing up in shape…when i consult with an accountant, i want him to have a pen, paper, a computer…a doctor needs a stethoscope…a serious musician takes care of their instrument(s)…baron didnt…he came in slovenly…no respect for the fans…no respect for the clips, none for the coaches and none for his teammates who were relying on him….he was a malingerer…im really sorry that it turned out for baron this way…but its time to move on…support mo williams…if he cant do the job, then he needs to be changed…but right now, mo williams is the point and and im hoping for the best just as i ahd for baron.
why is Kaman not traded then?
There has been some one sided comments about this whole thing. Some people at work when I brought it up though some of it be based on race but this is insane people praise Kaman yet tear Baron apart when he mad the team work.
Sure, this trade opens up more cap space...
to potentially sign a solid SF this off-season, but I feel the main goal was acquiring a contract that is far more easily moved than Baron’s. If we get D-Will, I firmly believe it will be like how the Knicks acquried Melo. D-Will tells NJN he isn’t extending, and they are forced to deal him by next year’s deadline to get SOMETHING for him.
That something can be a package of Kaman/MoWilly/who knows. The fact of the matter is, when it comes to crunch time, teams will take on that MoWilly deal waaaaay before the Baron deal (at least without heavy sweetners).
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on Feb 25, 2011 9:32 AM PST reply actions
The Blake Griffin Era
has a nice ring to it
In the final analysis, the end of the Baron Davis era is helping to facilitate the Blake Griffin era.
by The Blake Griffin Era on Feb 25, 2011 9:49 AM PST reply actions
You do realize Baron asissted a large role in the Blake era
Baron never ever wanted to take the spotlight from Blake he encouraged him and supported Blake whenever he could.
Agree
BD was a good sport when he was out there, I have no beef with Baron.
I was just pointing out that I created the user ID The Blake Griffin Era a few yrs ago
by The Blake Griffin Era on Feb 25, 2011 11:57 AM PST up reply actions
how was Baron's knee
is he going to pass his physical? haha.
Even if he doesn’t, you figure they pull a Knicks/Mobley and just take the deal anyway, right?
by Michael White on Feb 25, 2011 12:49 PM PST up reply actions
What are the odds of Mo Williams’ ‘12-’13 contract being bought out, and what would the terms on something like that be?
doubt that would happen
more likely scenarios:
1) Mo could be traded as an expiring as part of a deal to land Deron/CP3/etc
2) Mo could be resigned when his contract runs out and traded as part of a deal to land Deron/CP3/etc
Remember last years great moves {Blake-Gooden_Outlaw}
All of these guys left and it wouldn’t surprise me if Williams and Moon will follow suit. Losing franchises like the Clippers have no plan
Moon leaving
is almost guaranteed unless he really surprises us in the next 2 months. Mo is here for sure until the next trade deadline.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Feb 25, 2011 5:31 PM PST up reply actions
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