When advanced metrics lie
The following is from Bill SImmons' latest column. Those of you who feel he is just a humorist who knows nothing about the NBA can feel free to ignore. But for those who might think that the author of a highly regarded 700-page book about the sport might know a little something, it is food for thought as to why judging players by stats and stats alone is not any more rational than judging them by the eye test and the eye test alone.
For the record, Simmons is actually an advocate of advanced metrics. But believe it or not, it is possible to believe both that statistical analysis is an invaluable tool in evaluating players and that no model currently in existence is robust/accurate enough to rely on in a vacuum to the exclusion of all other factors, including traditional scouting (i.e., the eye test).
Without further ado, SImmons' Power Poll capsule of the 2010-2011 Milwaukee Bucks:
Remember those old Fox shows, "When Animals Attack?" The 2010-11 Bucks are "When Advanced Metrics Go Wrong!!!!" They traded for an already overpaid Corey Maggette (an efficient scorer on paper, which apparently made him underrated as long as you never, ever watched him); overpaid Drew Gooden (an efficient rebounder and high-percentage shooter who holds the unofficial record for "most times a player made his coach roll his eyes and look at the scoreboard" since 2000); and took care of John Salmons (who had his inevitable post-contract year swoon). Everything made sense on paper.
Which would be fine if this were baseball. But it's basketball: a sport in which five guys have to mesh the right way (a process that often defies statistics), and also, they have to collectively give a crap about the sport and each other. The season started and everyone quickly remembered that (A) there's a reason everybody hates playing with Maggette (actually, two: he's a ball stopper and a ball hog); (B) there's a reason Drew Gooden has been on 47 teams in nine years; and (C) you never want to give a non-All-Star in his 30s his last big contract (by no coincidence, Salmons' Bucks numbers dropped from 20 ppg and 47% FG to 13 ppg and 39% FG).
What's really confusing: Over the past few years, didn't the Thunder's Sam Presti show everyone how to run a small-market team? Build through the lottery; keep your cap space (so you can swing cap-related deals during the season that net you extra draft picks); avoid paying market price for veteran starters who aren't All-Stars; don't overpay your own guys if they aren't building blocks. And the thing is, John Hammond KNEW the blueprint. He was using it these past two years! So what made him go Maggette/Gooden/Salmons on us? Do NBA GMs just slowly lose their minds? Is it like when you go on Amazon to buy one book and end up with two Blu-rays as well, and even as you're paying for it, you're saying, "What's happening right now; why am I buying these?"
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Just read the column
Quit though, I still find the blowing of Presti a little humorous.
Over the past few years, didn’t the Thunder’s Sam Presti show everyone how to run a small-market team? Build through the lottery…
Simple as that guys. Draft Kevin Durant and you’re going places.
And FTR, I do think Simmons is mostly a humorist but he’s good enough with basketball analysis that he’s not completely shooting blanks. I do think it’s healthy to have debates regarding quantitative vs. qualitative analysis and Simmons points out a problem I’ve certainly pondered and many of us are aware of . Basketball will also have a blind spot in statistical analysis based on the free flowing form of the sport (compared to baseball where individual contributions are much easier to isolate) and a problem of “5 guys sharing 1 ball.” Individually I think defensive stats are pretty bad (team defensive stats are easier to justify) but I think we’re getting “close enough” with some of the offensive stuff.
Anyway, this could be a good conversation starter if people do want to discuss/debate these issues.
I disagree that "advanced" (read - unnecessary) stats are that helpful for reasons that have been well documented
I find the following quote quite true re Maggette:
“an efficient scorer on paper, which apparently made him underrated as long as you never, ever watched him”
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Apr 1, 2011 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Well documented by whom?
And bacek is right below about context. It seems people try to villify stats because of one or two exceptions that go against the conventional wisdom.
“Maggette sucks, but PER says he’s good, so PER sucks!”
It’s throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
by Michael White on Apr 1, 2011 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Well documented by many
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Apr 1, 2011 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Sorry - hit the wrong button
The problems with advanced metrics are known. If you think that they are helpful to the analysis, than more power to you. All I said is that I disagree.
Funny that you think “conventional wisdom” supports advanced metrics as the be all, end all. I don’t think that’s the case.
I’m not villifying advanced metrics. I’m just advancing my opinion that they are not very helfpful and that people who like them tend to overvalue their import.
Also, it seems to me that by describing my opinion as an attempt to “villify” them you seem to be interested in defending them wjen no one is attacking them.
The point that Simmons raised (apparently you missed it) is that you can understand the value of players – many of them – simply by watching them play. I’m not saying that advanced stats have no role to play in player evaluation but rather that they are way overvalued. The issues you mentioned are in my view significant issues not minor ones.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Apr 1, 2011 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Stats are impartial, while the eye-test falls victim to our own inherent biases. Numbers are what they are and while it makes sense to debate the importance of those numbers/weights, the facts are what they are. People either scored or they missed and they either rebounded or they didn’t.
And saying that you can get everything by watching the players probably has some truth to it, but how many observers (either professional or fans like us) can watch enough games of enough players to put together a meaningful sample size for evaluation. I think we can all do it for the Clippers (comparing Clippers to one another) but when discussing and debating trade and free agent targets how could we use anything but statistics?
by Michael White on Apr 1, 2011 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Interesting comments
You say stats are impartial – that I think depends on what the stats are and the inputs that go into choosing them. Look at the numbers that go into the Win-type advanced stats. I would agree with you that basic stats – which are derived from the basic scoring of the game of basketball and easily observable isolated situations like rebounds and assists, are indeed impartial. But not WIN type advanced stats.
And let me be clear – I am not comparing WIN stats to just the eyeball test. I’m merely advancing the theory that basic stats and even PER and other individualized shooting percentage stats are far more valuable for player evaluation thatn are WIN stats.
I agree with you on TS% and other shooting percentage tests. Those are very helpful. I’m again focusing here on WIN stats.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Apr 1, 2011 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions
stay out of this you will look very bad
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
lol
Few years late for that
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 1, 2011 2:25 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Your bravado doesn't serve you well
But I do understand why you raise the issue after I’ve repeatedly embarrassed you into acknowledging (through your silence) that you incorrectly interpreted such statistics.
Why pick a fight you will just lose?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Apr 1, 2011 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions
you sure you werent dreaming?
Did you let someone touch your totem? In what alternate universe did you win an argument about advanced statistics?
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 1, 2011 2:38 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Whatever you say Chuckles
Don’t you have somewhere else to go?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Apr 1, 2011 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions
nope
Trying to get over being jetlagged. Don’t you have some ambulances to chase? Obviously you must be busy since you are never on here in the middle of a work day.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 1, 2011 2:45 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I just made a couple of posts
You on the other hand like to use this form as a means to bully people and show everyone how smart you think you are – repeatedly.
I’m not interested in arguing with the likes of you. Sorry.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Apr 1, 2011 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions
lol
You made more posts on this thread than anyone else.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 1, 2011 2:52 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Sorry - posts dealing with substantive isuses
before you decided to hijack the thread and attack
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Apr 1, 2011 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Completely agree that the discussion/debate whatever you want to call it boils down to how much you want weight you put into the inputs. Everybody agrees that rebounds are good and turnovers are bad, but there is certainly an ongoing debate about how good and how bad those things are.
BTW, while I’m not an expert on Berri’s metric, I don’t think they’re doing anything more than weighing certain things (rebounds, penalties for missed shots) differently than Holligner/PER.
by Michael White on Apr 1, 2011 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions
FWIW
WP favors rebounding as much as scoring. Also, it gives less credence to the assist
PER tends to favor more efficient scoring
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
Not sure about your second point, but your first point is correct. The possesion is almighty in Berri’s metric, so a rebound is very valuable (another possesion) and a missed shot and turnover is very bad (lost possesion.) Of course (and this is where I’ve debated JR before) I don’t think a missed shot should be weighted as much (in the bad sense) as a turnover since a missed shot possesses the oppurtunity for an offensive rebound where by definition the turnover has resulted in a lost possesion.
I belive WP viewes a missed shot is as bad as a made shot is good (if that makes sense) whereas PER is more forgiving to missed shots—- therefore WP actually values more efficient scoring more than PER.
by Michael White on Apr 1, 2011 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions
yea but that's intermangled web
lately I have seen a push towards linear metrics. I call it the “fangraphs phenomenon.”
From my reading of WoW network writings, I have come to see that shooting efficiency is weighted as a near equivalent to possession creating stats.
Hence, the reason why a guy like Reggie Evans has produced some “legendary” monthly performances this season according to Arturo Galletti
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
i agree with you
My understanding of WoW is similar. I also thing missed shots are punished treated too harshly. At the same time PER puts too much emphasis on scoring totals while not reflecting fg% and usage rate enough.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 1, 2011 2:30 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
The entire concept that you can measure an individual player's
value by how many wins that player produces, in a game where five players play at any one time, and players are dependent on each other to play well, just doesn’t work for me.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Apr 1, 2011 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Hollinger basically does the same thing with EWA, and BBref does the same thing with Win Shares.
So if you want to compare Berri’s metric to PER (apples to apples), use WP/48 instead of gross WP.
by Michael White on Apr 1, 2011 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Good point
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Apr 1, 2011 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Wins Produced...
I think the metric is flawed.. I’ve even read the book and have very specific ways and reasons I think it’s flawed. But I’m not sure how it is partial. Unless the people who came up with the metric have some sort of personal vendetta against Allen Iverson and his ilk, I’m not sure what their agenda might be. Or conversely, unless they have a personal interest in seeing Ben Wallace in the Hall of Fame. It’s an honest, systematic attempt to quantify what’s happening on the basketball court. It’s completely impartial – it’s just numbers, after all. But as I say, it’s flawed – over an above the blind spots that all metrics have on the defensive side of the game.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
And what are we considering an advanced metric? TS% is probably in that category and I think it’s pretty intuitive. I don’t why people would want to throw out a metric like that.
by Michael White on Apr 1, 2011 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions
anything beyond 2+2
Would be advanced stats to Jax
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 1, 2011 2:33 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Chuckles, no one is arguing here
so why come in here and try to pick a fight? Don’t you have anything better to do? I guess not.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Apr 1, 2011 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions
im in line for a latte
So hope. Just laughing my ads off read in your drivel about advanced stats. We get it, you don’t know how it works. Now go back to telling us how awesome the Gomes signing was.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 1, 2011 2:41 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
damn you autocorrect
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 1, 2011 2:41 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Whatever you say buddy
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Apr 1, 2011 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions
cool
In that case I would also like you to pick up my dry cleaning. Thanks.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 1, 2011 2:46 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
i would venture to guess
based on your posts here that you are a low-level employee with little to no actual power or authority in the company you work for. This forum is apparently your alternate universe.
Anyway, I’m not interested in sparring with you. Go pick on someone else dude.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Apr 1, 2011 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions
heh
Wrong. Not even remotely close.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 1, 2011 2:51 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
cc, you did come into this thread
and start being a complete jerk for no reason. Seriously, if you aren’t going to talk about the topic at hand, be quiet.
"Yayyyy! The Clippers got a coach, we will win now!" - My girlfriend.
Well he has a reason
You might not agree with it, but he has a reason to treat Jax that way.
admittedly, I haven't been here for as long as
their fighting has gone on, but in this specific thread the attacks were uncalled for.
"Yayyyy! The Clippers got a coach, we will win now!" - My girlfriend.
Its a funny situation
Lots of people get along with each other just fine. One person gets along with almost no one, yet no one blames that one person. Peculiar.
He's always that way
Just ignore him
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Actually, he doesn't - just go away
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
This thread is a joke to begin with
in that it has nothing to do with the Clippers. But I did actually have some actual basketball input. But my history with Jax goes beyond just this thread so I’m sure if you only saw this thread then yes I’m being a jerk to Jax but derision towards Jax has been a ongoing pet project of mine.
If you want (but I don’t know why you would) you can just go through the archives and you’ll find that Jax has pretty much reversed his position on everything at some point in time but will maintain that he hasn’t even though he clearly has.
Look up his thoughts on Ryan Gomes, Josh Childress, Baron Davis, injury excuse and that will teach one all they need to know (and more) about Jax.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
Eh I still find it interesting
It’s not Clipper-related, but it certainly fits with a frequently discussed topic here on ClipsNation, usually based on why Gomes and Foye should be riding the pine.
Similarly, if there was an article about Ke$ha purchasing the Kings and renaming them the KiNg$, I’d expect that to be posted as well, since we keep discussing the move and how it might affect Clipper fandom.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
sure
The topic is interesting but Boltsfan21 didn’t even bother to make it Clippercentric. Clearly whatever methodology the FO uses to sign guys like Foye and Gomes is flawed and they could a different approach to avoid repeating the same mistakes.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 3, 2011 4:01 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Speaking of Foye...
I feel like he has trade value right now, whether it’s deserved or not. GOGOGO OLSHEY
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
if he does
They should trade him. His expiring contract should make it easier to move him. Unless its a end of the game situation where the other team needs to foul Foye is usually hurting the team when he’s playing.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 3, 2011 4:17 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Wait a minute
Those step back 30 foot threes (which he makes 1/20 times, which is JUST enough for people to somehow forget the other 19 misses) aren’t good shots??
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
Sorry, didn't realize
a) that you made a rule that all FanPosts had to be “Clippercentric”; and b) that you were the one who makes the rules.
Seemed to me that stats v. eye test is an interesting topic for fans of the NBA, which happens to be the league the Clippers play in, and is also a common point of discussion on this blog. Didn’t know that all such discussions had to have an overt Clippers reference. Silly me for finding what Simmons wrote — and most of the discussion that ensued on this thread — interesting.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Well..
this probably should have been a fan shot as well since you didn’t even add anything to the actual article (or excerpt from an article). But whatever, feel free to post anything about the NBA on here.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
TS% is indeed intuitive
And obviously a metric that provides insight. But it also obviously doesn’t discern between a creator like LeBron, an at-the-rim finisher like DJ, or a ball stopper like Maggs. And that, whether or not the Bucks example was the right one to have used, was really Simmons’ (and my) point: No one metric and no single statistical model should be looked at in a vacuum and held up as the only virtuous and meaningful piece of information.
If you want to form an opinion of a player, why wouldn’t you want to know his WP/48 and his PER and his TS% and his rebound rate, and why wouldn’t you want to watch him play enough to get a sense of whether he gives a shit and plays D, and how his teammates seem to react to him? It’s all valid.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
I read a funny article
where for all the NBA teams advanced stats where used to compute what the ideal usage was for the starters. Thanks to DJ high %FG the article stated that DJ’s usage should be doubled. Never mind that DJ’s barely can score further 5 feet from the hoop.
Bottom line: most advance stats just put a weight on the different simple stats. They can help but only relying on them seems a recipe for disaster.
by BelgianClipper on Apr 2, 2011 1:01 AM PDT up reply actions
I think the issue is that the advanced stats can't predict what will happen if situations change
We know from watching DJ that if we run the offense through him, his 1 move (dunking the ball when he’s wide open) will stop working once the defense realizes it can stop this by simply putting someone behind DJ. Stats see his astronomical shooting percentage and the computed response would say “HEY if he can score like that, let’s get him the ball every single time!” The silly computer doesn’t realize that he doesn’t score by getting the ball, but rather by playing off of the guy with the ball.
If you ever watched Kevin Love’s UCLA Bruins, you might remember a play where, after a made basket, Love would chest pass the ball all the way down the court, and either Collison or Westbrook would speed down and get an easy bucket. When they ran that play, they scored like 99% of the time. Of course, they only ran the play once a game. A computed stats-based response might say, “HEY, why don’t they run that play every single time??” A human would then respond, “Stop shouting, Robotron. To answer your question, they don’t run it every time because it only works when the defense doesn’t expect it.” (Just like DJ’s scoring.)
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
We must remember
A guy like John Hollinger only speaks in numbers. His intention is to display information, and while he may or may not have his own agendas, he provides an entire database worth of information, available sites for the average layman such as nba.com. He’s not an entertainer, and he doesn’t have a nickname like “the Stats Guy.” He’s as serious as serious gets.
A guy like Bill Simmons is an entertainment writer. Yes, he deals in facts as well, but since he primarily writes opinion-pieces for ESPN, under the moniker “the Sports Guy,” we have to remember that whenever he writes, he has an end-goal in mind. In this case, he was writing to debunk advanced metrics as being a perfect measure of a player’s talent (though no one has ever made that claim). Naturally, like any writer with an intent to make a case or convince a reader, he’s going to use evidence that supports his theory.
There are definitely cases where advanced metrics don’t tell the whole story. We know this. The creators of those metrics have conceded this. However, by and large, these metrics generally show you who the winners are. If you go back in history, before the metrics were used, and apply them to the winning teams over those years and to the losing teams, you’ll undoubtedly find a huge trend towards winners having high PER and high WP/WS/EWA/etc. There may be exceptions to the rule because these things are not perfect, but they are pretty darn accurate.
For me, I like to use these advanced metrics in certain situations. When I’m trying to figure out who the guys are who are contributing (however sneakily) to the team’s success, or finding the ones who who are hurting the team, despite having gawdy scoring numbers. These metrics are absolutely fantastic for these uses, and time and again, they’ve identified why Randy Foye may get Mike Smith overly excited, but secretly he’s still hurting the team and should probably be traded while his high scoring numbers confuse the league into thinking he’s valuable.
Contrarily, I don’t like to solely use these metrics when trying to figure out who to trade for. In these cases, advanced metrics should certainly be used to identify producers out of the available free agents, BUT I think that the eye-test should be used to try and see which guys fit best with the team. I think Corey Maggette would be great for a team like the Blazers or the Celtics or the old version of the Spurs. A slow-paced offense that likes to pick at the defense would be fantastic for him. Golden State’s run-and-gun offense? Not so much. Likewise, if you put Marcus Camby in a situation where he has to be a key scorer who has to create his own shot, he’s about as useful as a Pomeranian on offense, regardless of how efficiently he scores. For some teams that have trouble scoring, that’s a huge problem, so Camby really doesn’t fit the need, even if he adds a ton of wins and has a high PER. You put him in a situation where there are other scorers and he can sneak his way into offensive putbacks or open jumpers on slow-rotating defenses, and he’s an incredible rebounder who can give you 8-12 points a night, and he fits perfectly on that team (—> …LA Clippers… <—). So I maintain that you can’t solely use advanced metrics, at least when trying to build a team. There has to be a give and take based on the player’s fit with the team in question.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
Exactly right
Despite what MW says above about people trying to vilify stats and throwing the baby out with the bathwater, I don’t think that’s what Simmons was trying to do. I think very few people here advocate ignoring advanced metrics, and SImmons himself is generally a proponent.
But what you say in your last graph here is really the point. And I’d even take it a step further by repeating his point about Gooden. While the stats might say he’s an average player, there’s a reason he’s bounced around as much as he has, and that reason has to do with the so-called intangibles that stats-blinded people are happy to overlook. Not hustling and not giving a shit about D can be contagious. Doesn’t show up in the box scores or metrics, but definitely shows up in the loss column. That’s why neither solely looking at stats nor solely relying on the eye test can ever be the answer.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Hmmm your first paragraph may misunderstand me a bit
I actually agree with MW that Simmons is cherry-picking to match his point, though. But my point was rather that this should be expected of Simmons, as he already has a goal of trying to make a case against advanced statistics and his research (or rather his display of what he has researched) is subject to his own biases.
My other point, about using a combination of advanced stats supplemented by the eye test, is where I agree with Simmons’ overall case against the sole use of advanced stats. I just disagree with how he went about showing this, which was in an entertaining, but overall imprecise way.
As I stated below in a response to JR, though, I suspect I am incomplete in my understanding of the advanced stats in that certain “holes” I think I’ve found in advanced stats that the eye-test provides may not matter one single bit (specifically systems, roles, and defense).
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
Sorry if I was unclear
I wasn’t meaning to imply that you agreed with Simmons about the Bucks. I was agreeing with what you said in your final paragraph in the first post and/or your second paragraph here.
But I also disagree wholeheartedly with your statement that “he already has a goal of trying to make a case against advanced statistics.” Simmons is not typically anti-metrics. He’s just against using them to the exclusion of all else, which is where it sounds like you and I and he agree.
Finally, while I can’t say one way or the other whether systems and roles matter, I can say with certainty that defense both isn’t captured and is important. And that is clearly the biggest flaw in all the models right now.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Definitely agree with what you said about defense
Until I see evidence of how defense can be captured statistically. I really like using oppFG% of different lineups… that might be the best defensive data I’ve seen.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
Until I see evidence of how defense can be captured statistically
Yup. Until they put microchips in sneakers defensive metrics will always be lacking at best.
by Michael White on Apr 2, 2011 7:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Which by definition means some amount of eye test is not just inevitable but also crucial.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
from cost-benefit analysis
Unless the Clippers have a huge team of analysts or scouts watching every single play for every single player the eye test alone will never be enough (nor will each scout react to each player on a consistent basis). Using some form of advanced statistical scouting complement by some tradiional scouting would seem to be the most efficient way to run a club
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 3, 2011 4:04 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I wish we had Gooden. I still think the guy has value.
by Michael White on Apr 2, 2011 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree with everything you've said on this thread
except this. The last thing the Clippers need right now is yet another guy who can’t be bothered to play defense.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
He’s a nice bench guy. Can rebound and score and makes his free throws.
Depth is very important. It’s not like I’d run off Kaman/Jordan for Gooden, but consider the club played guys like Jarron Collins, Ike Diogu and Brian Cook at C/PF.
by Michael White on Apr 2, 2011 7:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Sure, depth is important
And yeah, he’s certainly better than Jarron Collins (as is my 4’ 11" mom). But you’re not gonna sign a guy to a 5yr/$32MM deal to sit at the end of the bench. And as Kelly Dwyer puts it:
Drew breaks plays, he’s caught with his head turned on defense more than just about any NBA big man I can think of, and he takes bad shots.
All things considered, I’d rather have Rhino as the 2nd big man off the bench at $2.3MM than overpay Gooden.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
PER is worth absolutely nothing-just look at the top players in it.
+/- for individual players doesnt mean anything except in extreme cases of being bad. For example, a couple weeks ago against the Lakers, Vince Carter had a -20, nobody else on the Suns has below a -5, and he was clearly the worst player out there. However, it doesnt signify good things as much, since Griffin often ends up with a lower + than Gomes.
Top players in PER
Lebron James
Dwight Howard
Dwayne Wade
Kevin Love
Chris Paul
by Michael White on Apr 1, 2011 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Look at top 10 pgs
Last I checked, Ramon Sessions was in the top 5, above Jameer Nelson, Tony Parker, John Wall, and various other better pgs.
And Kevin Love is not the 4th best player in the league.
How can you be sure?
Watched all of the Wolves games, have you?
I have seen about 15
He gets boards since Beasley, Milicic, Randolph, and all of their other front court players are not good rebounders, and he scored because Beasley and Flynn are the only other scorers on the team.
Dont get me wrong, Love is a monster, but there are many better players out there than he is in my opinion of course.
Your point doesn't necessarily translate using this, although I do get your point about context
BS doesn’t use context in his ranking. He mentions bad signings, but doesn’t give the real reasons as to why the Bucks have had a bad season.
Injuries have crippled the Bucks this season, especially when it comes to some of their most important players.
Jennings was hurt, Bogut has been continually hurt, and their best perimeter defender Mbah Moute has missed a lot of time.
If there is one statement that I can make about the debate on metrics vs. eye test, it would be that metrics can give context when examined (theres that word again), whereas the eye test does not really provide any context
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
It's more than just metrics v eye test
Basic stats play a very very important role in player evaluation
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Apr 1, 2011 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions
You realize that “advanced stats” are just the combinations of basic stats, right? The component parts of PER is rebounds, points, FGA, turnovers, et al.
by Michael White on Apr 1, 2011 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, I'm focusing on WIN stats - PER is fine
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Apr 1, 2011 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions
there should be a rule that you stay out of any advanced metric discussion
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
you obviously haven't seen the countless of advanced metrics threads
derailed by Jax mainly because he doesn’t know, or care, how to use them
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
ha, oh i have
hasn’t done any derailing here. it’s ok to disagree with someone, you know. it’s allowed.
tell me how his first response with my post has anything to do with my point?
also, he obviously shows very little grasp of WP but he argues against it, even calling it out when it hasn’t been mentioned anywhere
why does he hate WP so much? most likely because John R swears by it
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
bingo
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 1, 2011 2:25 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
No need to talk reason with bacek and Chuckles
bacek has an ax to grind and Chuckles has nothing better to do.
They really should leave this thread.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Apr 1, 2011 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions
You are quite silly
Once again, it would serve you well to stop picking fights. If you want me to show everyone why you are so aggressive on this issue, I’d be happy to do so.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Apr 1, 2011 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions
See the post above
I understand your position here since I’ve repeatedly embarrassed you in the past based on your totally incorrect interpretation of such stats.
Again, bacek, why pick a fight?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Apr 1, 2011 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions
LOL
my post wasn’t even about stats
If you bothered to try and understand you would get the CONTEXT of my post
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
Oh, the context was quite clear, my man
You are trying to be a bully, picking fights, based on an argument that I don’t understand advanced metrics. As I’ve said, the reason why you are doing that is because I thoroughly embarrassed you in the past.
You are afraid to admit when you are wrong, but quick to be the bully. Very impressive stuff, bacek.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Apr 1, 2011 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions
you never ever win any argument about metrics with me
are you referring to the time we were talking about rebound rates?
How you couldn’t grasp the idea that if rebound rates is dependent on how many minutes a player plays and the available rebounds during that floor time. How you didn’t understand that if a player simply grabs more rebounds his rebound rate doesn’t necessarily increase?
Oh yea, that time when you failed to even try to learn anything about advanced metrics
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
I'm happy to go back to the issue, bacek
But for your sake I suggest we deal with it directly so as not to further embarrass you and bore the rest of the group.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Apr 1, 2011 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions
make a thread about it go ahead
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
Jax write anything original?
Don’t hold your breath. He is here to bitch and complain and hate.
Insightful as usual
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
I did, twice, destroying your argument
And you refused to admit you were wrong despite the fact it was obvious
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
You didn't address my point at all
You talked about 2007, as usual.
Translates to:
LOL
You are an idiot.
Actually, we were not discussing you
Why not just move along since yo’re not interested in the substance of the discussion but rather only in trying to bully others. You’ve already indicated that you don’t believe this post is about the Clippers, so why are you here?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
You made a fanshot to block quote a massively dishonest part of a piece that has nothing to do with the Clippers?
Drew Gooden has appeared in 27 games and when he has played he has been about average. Which seems about right for a guy making the league average. Kind of a dumb point. If you told me I could get an average player for the MLE I will take that every time. Olshey spent almost the MLE twice and got two awful players. Give me Drew Gooden. Or is Simmons’ point that advanced stats should have been able to predict that he would get hurt? Its hard to see how a guy who has hardly played can be held up as a problem. If only Randy Foye would get injured. You eyeball test guys have done great on him his whole career.
Corey Maggette is bad, but if you are looking at the correct advanced stats they have been telling us he has generally been bad since leaving the Clippers. I’m not sure what specific advanced stat he is railing against there, but its not any I would respect. Maybe Dunleavy was propping him up.
John Salmons has gone from an average player to a somewhat below average player. This season has been a far statistical outlier for him. He is 31 this year so maybe he got old or maybe its an outlier. It happens. Oh noes lets throw the baby out with the bathwater.
If I was going to describe your fanpost you:
1) Forwarded a strawman
2) Sat back and took no real position
Great job!
The real problem with the Bucks is that 2 of their top players are going to miss about 80 games combined. That takes them from about a 42 win team to about a 32 win team. I mean its weird right. If the advanced stats guys were high on the Bucks, you would think he would at least point to one that said so.
At no point in your rambling, incoherent fanpost were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone on this board is now dumber for having read it. I award you -10 points, and may god have mercy on your soul.
whoa! i think your beef is with Simmons, not the guy quoting Simmons.
could you then make the point that the Clips’ record would be better if Baron, Gordon and Kaman were healthy for the full season?
Injured players, if they are good, cost wins
Seems obvious.
That group would not do enough to get the Clippers near the playoffs though. That group is average to far below average.
One more bad game from EJ and he is back under 0.100 WP/48.
well to take it a step further
wouldn’t Foye and Gomes’s signings be mitigated somewhat if the roster was healthy and they played a lesser role on the team?
i’m not defending the FO, by the way. i’m an advocate of spend spend spend.
Not really Gomes
He’s the worst of the 3 SFs and he logs the most minutes. That’s a coach failing and you can’t really blame that on injuries.
by Michael White on Apr 1, 2011 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions
but you can afford to play him less minutes
if the rest of the roster is healthy, right? which is what VDN has been doing lately.
Yes, but per WP/48, Foye < Gomes. So if you switch to a 3 guard lineup of Foye, Mo and Gordon you are actually worse off.
by Michael White on Apr 1, 2011 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions
oh i get that, i despise the 3 guard lineup at the end of games.
in addition to Aminu getting more minutes (ruling out Moon here, since although he’s the best he obviously isn’t part of VDNs minutes distribution), Gomes could still be on the court when a traditional lineup is needed, but his lack of impact (offensively) could be somewhat hidden since you have 3-4 (depending on DJ/Kaman) scorers on the court with him.
Of course, but injuries happen
If your plan is perfect health you are sunk.
The Clippers have been very lucky in the health department this year. Their top 2 players have missed a combined like 2 games.
One side says you win about 3 more games if Gordon is available all 82. The same coin says if it was Griffin who missed the time instead you lose an extra 7.
top 2 are not Griffin and Gordon?
the +3/-7 are WP/48 numbers? either way, i understand the point that the complete, healthy roster still wouldn’t have made the playoffs (and i put most of that on the FO). realistically, they won just about as many games as i thought they would this year.
Per WP: Griffin, Jordan, Gordon
Per WP/48 (we have a small sample size issue here though): Griffin, Jordan, Moon, Gordon
Per PER: Griffin, Gordon, Smith, Williams
by Michael White on Apr 1, 2011 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions
wow, thanks for that
some revelations! Smith?! wouldn’t have guessed.
are Jordan’s WP scores higher because of FG%, rebounding, and blocks? are the final tallies heavy on weighting those categories, as opposed to PER?
Current season wins produced
FG% and rebounding mostly. Blocks matter less since they don’t tell us if your team actually ended up with the ball or you Dwight Howard’ed it into the 12th row and gave them another shot at it.
so the part that matters is the effect it has on the team?
Does a block, excite the fans, which in turn energizes the players? I don’ think you can measure something like that with stats
Just sayin…
Why would you want to?
Do you have any proof that a team performs better the series of possessions after a block sent out of bounds?
I won’t deny the entertainment aspect. It looks cool.
Why do teams play better at home then on the road…
It has been well documented that players feed off the crowd…
Im writing my ADJ 3 atm but could come up with somethin
Do they play better at home?
The home benefit is probably about 3 points, which is probably about the FT differential. Being at home buys you just enough referee bias to matter. Yes, this is probably from crowd intimidation. But a Dwight Howard block into the 18th row would excite a road crowd too.
If you that work and it comes out I will add it to my thinking. There are a lot of critics around here, but few that are willing to put in work.
ok
As far as the 3 point benefit at home is there a statistical measure to prove it or is it just conjecture? Im not arguing just asking.
Sure it could excite a road crowd but chances are if you are on the road against a good team that crowd is going to be rooting against you…
I am more then willing to put in the work..I mostly lurk though. Working full time and school full time dont exactly help.
Im on spring break next week ill make a fanpost sometime
My sources on that would be of the gambling nature
I have to make it a take it or leave it situation. I was satisfied with their explanation, but if you are not it might be another worthwhile project.
Sure, so take it out to top 3 in wins produced and on the roster
Griffin, Jordan and Gordon have missed 28 games combined. Less than 10 games each. That’s a very successful season health-wise.
Talent-wise, less so.
i didnt want to bring that up
But the team has been pretty healthy overall. Bledsoe hasn’t missed a game due to injury I think. Neither has Gomes. Compared to previous seasons the Clips have been very healthy.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 1, 2011 3:26 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
The key players have been hurt at critical times
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Apr 1, 2011 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions
right...
The point is the Clips have been healthier than they have been the past 4 years.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 1, 2011 4:01 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
One could argue, though
The 5-25 start (or whatever it was) was mainly caused by having to play U23 for so long, which was caused by having to play Bledsoe in the absence of Baron. Without that 5-25 start, this season is a huge step up from last year. So while we’ve been more healthy than in previous years, it would appear that we managed to lose a lot more during the brief periods that we were unhealthy. When I’m not negotiating the restructuring of a company, I’ll take the time to look into exactly how much we reverse-capitalized on losing during Baron’s and EJ’s and Kaman’s absences (I think it’s less so with Kaman).
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
not sure what your point is
If its that the FO didn’t construct a team with adequate depth then I completely agree. You go into a season with 4 rookies and added was 3 bad free agents then yes you will struggle when one of your good players is out.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 3, 2011 4:07 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
and the injuries to Kaman and Baron?
certainly the team was better with Baron at point than Bledsoe, and Kaman was the best player on the team last season (whoop-dee-do, i know). with the roster so thin with starting talent, i’d argue that their injuries were crucial to the team’s lack of success, especially if you view Kaman’s early season woes as an outlier (considering past/present production).
maybe the Clips were relatively healthy this year overall, but with a rookie as your best player, lots of young players, and a new coaching staff i’d venture that the lack of a consistent rotation was a key factor in the team’s lack of success. of course, these are not things that i can support with stats, so i agree that my position is relatively nebulous/indefensible.
"i’d argue that their injuries were crucial to the team’s lack of success"
Go ahead. Then explain why they immediately starting getting better once those two players started sitting out.
You’ve got a sample size problem with Kaman. Yes, pre-injury Kaman was shitty, but post-injury Kaman has not been. Assuming the injury is not related to the poor play, Kaman’s play would have normalized to the mean.
by Michael White on Apr 1, 2011 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Which mean though?
This is why I refer to good Kaman and bad Kaman. We have seen multiple full seasons at well above average and well below average.
Is this the first year we see good Kaman and bad Kaman in the same season? Who knows?
Finally, if I am to believe Davis was so crucial to the team’s success, why did Olshey send him away? It would be hard to argue both that Davis was crucial AND it was right to send him away, wouldn’t it?
i can't argue my point
in a way that you’d be satisfied with. to my eyes it was clear that a healthy/motivated Baron (after the initial early swoon) made the team better. i have no idea if the numbers back me up on this… but the team was playing near .500 ball with him as the point.
Kaman is a bit more difficult to nail down. is he taking shots from BG/EJ (don’t care about rebounds, as long as the team boards are relatively consistent)? the swings in his play from year to year make it difficult to pinpoint his potential production.
i have no idea why Baron was traded. to me it was a move sideways, at least so far. i’m willing to grant that Mo’s full potential as the team’s #1 pg won’t be seen until the first quarter of next season.
I’m calculating Kaman’s TS% since returning from injury at 53.9%. Griffin’s for the season is 54.9%, so you want Griffin taking shots over Kaman but the difference is pretty small.
by Michael White on Apr 1, 2011 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions
and this is where the injuries make it tough
the sample size for the Clips with a full healthy roster is just too small. it’s hard to gauge whether the team would play better together (and thus have more wins) if there was less shake-up. especially since there has been incremental progress (however halting) over the course of the season.
the most frustrating part is that the major roster moves to be made are still to come, but it’s hard to view the Clips as more than a random collection of talent. how do the pieces fit together, if at all? who is expendable? is the “core” of the team really worth building upon?
that's when you use career percentages
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
like Gomes' career stats
of 12 pts, 5 rebs, 45% fg?
Don't look at the wrong stats and then blame the stats
Well, ok do, since this is sort of exactly what Simmons’ and losbolts are trying to do.
They're wrong because
you don’t like them – classic misuse of stats
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
I'm not sure what you tried to convey here, but
LOL
You are an idiot.
Why not just move along, bully
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Its not hard at all
Its only hard if you make it hard.
“Any time you can augment your 29 win teams with guys who are perennially on sub-30 win teams and call it an offseason, you have to do it.”
"it's only hard if you make it hard"
is that a dare John R?
lol
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
come on, dude
some of us are trying to eat ramen :)
heh, point taken
i hate it, too.
but what have we learned this season about what the core of this team can accomplish? Griffin is a stud, Gordon is a solid 2, DJ should be re-signed, Gomes is bad, Foye is less bad… anything else? we’re pretty much at the same level of understanding we were at the beginning of the season.
Are we?
I feel like I’m at the same level of understanding.
I also feel like I took a lot of heat for my criticism at the time, even though that criticism feels spot on with what most everyone thinks of the roster now.
Using the right stats in the right way let me do that. And that was done before I could have possibly known any of the supposed complex interactions only the eye test can allegedly discern.
hmmm
You feel like your criticism of Gordon feels spot on with what most everyone thinks?
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
I guess not
I was speaking more on the acquisitions.
But you got me.
OK
I guess I didn’t think your position on the acquisitions opened you up to that much criticism.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
eh, it doesn't matter
this is the internet, getting criticism on your opinions shouldn’t matter; getting personal is beside the point, i’m sure you’re not losing sleep over it.
i’m talking about evaluating the team without using stats. obviously if you can get valuable info from stats then you should, but there are other factors to consider in evaluating the club’s performance and i rue the fact that we didn’t get much of that done this year.
Hey, if your eyes can capture the thousands of things you would need to notice in a game and your brain can remember the millions of these over the season
Then maybe you are getting something that the stats don’t show.
thousands? millions?
it’s a simpler game than that. i’m not advocating ignoring adv metrics at all. i’m advocating using them in conjunction with the eye test – in particular how effective players are in particular schemes/matchups/etc. these are ways to evaluate/project performance and determine the best course for implementing changes to put players in a position to succeed.
Yup
So I presume you are writing all that stuff down? Or you are counting on the noggin alone to sort, store, filter and process that without injecting bias?
If you can do that properly in your head, you are a better man than I. I am not a super genius, so I’ll go with a model that does a pretty good job of explaining the past and predicting the future.
of course not!
bias is bias, no escape from it. i don’t watch games with the intent to critically analyze each play, but there are certainly trends that one can pick up on from game to game.
again, i don’t advocate ignoring stats in lieu of the eye test, but are you proposing the contrary?
Very much so yes
My point in this mini-thread is that I don’t believe you can gather any data that is better or more useful in your head than that which comes from the stats. To do so is to say that you can remember more about each of the 82 games than is contained in the box score, process that, and come out with something meaningful and detailed. And that’s just for one team. What if you want to speak on players on every other team? Yikes.
It sounds like a tall order, especially for anyone who would self-identify as a fan.
oh i certainly wouldn't make those claims with any certainty for non-Clippers
but if i’ve come to relatively the same conclusions that you have based mostly on the eye test, then doesn’t that make my assessments somewhat comparable in value?
i use stats and box scores to refine my thinking and to minimize my bias as a viewer. there is inevitable bias either way. even if you start from a purely statistical viewpoint for your analysis, your bias is still present because you value those statistics more than any other form of assessment.
even Daryl Morey's Rockets have scouts
what good are scouts if stats paint the whole picture?
Who is going to gather the stats from obscure places?
If the bigger question is why send a scout to watch a single game from a prospect, then its a good question. To look busy?
i shouldn't have gone there, that's a whole other topic
i’ll rest on my objections – i think a balanced approach between adv. metrics and the eye test is the way to go. but i applaud your ability to come to enlightened conclusions based solely on the stats, i just think the insights you gain from your analysis could be successfully augmented with a keen eye in relation to certain facets of the game.
I would expect that Dork Elvis
goes much further down the road in advanced statistics than WoW. They could be recording charges, altered shots (kind of like a QB hurry in football) etc. I’d like to see a breakdown of FG% based on the shot clock. I’m certain that the less time their is left on the shot clock the lower the FG%. We’re talking about looking at maybe 15 stat categories but one can easily segment into hundreds of different little nuances to break it down.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
doesn't www.82games.com
has those kind of statistics?
Anyway interesting would be a split up between fast-breaks and set plays. Fast-breaks have a high FG% and usually end quite fast (hence the name) so they would muddy the picture. My guess would be that the highest FG% in set plays would be from 10-20 seconds with really good teams having a marked advantage in the 15-20 second range.
A huge drop-off from 20-24 seconds wouldn’t be surprising.
by BelgianClipper on Apr 2, 2011 1:22 AM PDT up reply actions
I wonder though
Don’t the surrounding players matter, in terms of a player’s role on the team? And aren’t certain players only efficient when they play a certain role? For example, if you make DJ take the role of a leading scorer, you’re really hurting your team, aren’t you?
And what of systems? Aren’t some guys just bad in certain systems? I recall Kaman saying he wanted to run half-court sets, while Baron wanted to run freely (Kim Hughes era). I don’t know if stats can tell the whole story in these situations.
And finally, what about defensive stats? Do you think that advanced metrics can tell the whole story there?
I don’t mean to put you on the spot or anything, but rather I want to expand my own view on the situation. Currently, my view is that advanced metrics don’t tell the whole story on any of these things, but I have a suspicion that either I’m not looking at the right things or that these things generally and historically don’t matter either way. (e.g. Roles don’t matter because they sort themselves out, systems don’t matter because players still get the same stats when adjusted for pace, team defensive stats are enough data to matter)
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
Players should play their position
Is anyone suggesting otherwise?
Positions are not synonymous to roles
Roles = scorer, playmaker, rebounder, etc.
I’m suggesting that it matters if you ask Marcus Camby to try and score a lot. He’s efficient, but I would guess that his diminishing returns come much sooner than someone like Nene, but if you ask Nene to spend entire possessions trying to get rebounding position (see: Ben Wallace), you’re completely wasting his efficient scoring.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
Also
I’m interested in what you think about systems (pace, triangle offense, etc.) and the way defense is quantified statistically.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
System has to be equated with coach
Which doesn’t appear to matter.
Teammates don’t appear to matter.
I’m not sure why you would ask a basketball player to do something different than what they are good at, but it would be effectively changing positions. I imagine it would matter. That’s not really a stats thing or not.
Hmm let me see if I understand correctly
So each position should contribute in a particular way?
To start, it would seem that from PG to C, assists should decrease and rebounds should increase.
As for scoring, should that be more centrally based, with PG and C’s scoring less, SG and PF scoring slightly more, and SF scoring the most? Or maybe, and probably most importantly, it doesn’t matter who scores? In past threads, you’ve talked about the concept that scoring is irrelevant because it’s about outscoring the opponent, not scoring the most points. So by this logic, you would never have to ask Camby to be a scorer because as long as he is doing the things he does well, he’ll contribute to his team scoring more points than the other team.
I wonder how this would work in the real world, though. Perhaps Camby only does the things he does well because he has teammates to run the offense? I mean, you have to score at some point, right? I wonder how a team with 5 non-scorers/off-the-ball players would fare?
Off the top of my head, Kidd, Battier, Kirilenko, Camby, and T.Chandler. They might be the lowest scoring championship team in history?
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
In brief
Yes.
Yes.
Close enough.
You have to score at least one point, but lately I have been thinking about the idea that shots are taken, never created. The Nuggets field goal attempts have gone up since Carmelo was traded. He never created a shot in his life. The shots exist. Someone will have to take them.
It is difficult for those who do not
understand the game
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
I see
Ill try to keep it simple for you in the future since you clearly find it so difficult to understand.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 3, 2011 4:14 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
actually the baron move
Was probably a slight step down AND on top of that there was the loss of a lottery pick which should hold some trade value. The true motive of the deal was to save cash and potentially cap room. Let’s hope they do a better job at it this time around. We’ll… they can’t do worse can they?
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 1, 2011 4:41 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
yeah.
losing the pick wasn’t a big deal in terms of acquiring a rookie, but using it as leverage to package bad assets was something that we missed out on.
i’m willing to call the trade a wash, though, until i see how Mo performs to start next season – i think team chemistry issues probably affect the PG position more than any other.
also, i love me some Baron
but you could argue that Mo is an upgrade simply because he’ll likely be injured less often than Baron. sad but true.
You could, but
Davis appeared in more games with the Clippers this season than Williams did with the Cavs.
Last year too.
Damn you eye test!
it's pretty close
Baron’s last 6 years: 75, 65, 82, 63, 74, 18
Mo’s : 69, 81, 66, 68, 58, 80
but Baron has 5 more years of NBA wear and tear.
Hmm, I thought that you had said
the trade was at worst a wash
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Link?
If you are going to quote someone you should link what you are talking about.
That is to say:
LOL
You are an idiot.
I'm surprised they actually let you post here
Mr. internet tough guy. If you truly deny that you posted that Mo was at worst a wash or words to that effect, I’ll go back and post.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
I have commented on the relative health of Williams and Davis before?
Or are you just using your typical off-topic distraction tactics again?
LOL
You are an idiot.
LOL - dodge and weave
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Apr 4, 2011 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions
David was probably crucial to the team's success -now-
But not in the future. I imagine they sent him away because they knew they’d never get another chance to. (or rather “knew”)
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
Funny quote - "if your plan is perfect health you are sunk"
A Clipper exec told me a few weeks ago that one of the things they’d get so annoyed about MDSr for was that he was always telling them that he “is such a good coach when the players are healthy.”
I bring this up because you were such the ardent defender of MDSr over that seven year run and he certainly had to deal with his share of injuries during that time.
No, the Clippers have not been lucky. BD out to start – their leader, their key player. EJ out just when they were starting to play better.
Since the 5-21 start they are basically .500. Think with BD coming in healthy and EJ not hurt for 20 games in a row they’d do better? See if you can answer without looking at the WIN statistics book.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Apr 1, 2011 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions
you realize there was progress made in this thread
and then you started posting again?
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
He lives to annoy people.
Just reply to him
LOL
You are an idiot
everytime.
good discussion above
Sad I missed it. But then you got jaxed.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 1, 2011 4:47 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
what the hell
Does MDSR have to do with this conversation
lmao
Jax is here
Every comment he makes is about MDSr. From his first one years ago to the one’s today. He is not well.
Dude has a quote from Dunleavy as his signature still. Weird.
Sorry, John R
But you seem to have missed my point. Above you argue that injuries shouldn’t matter. Yet you spent like 7 years on this board making the exact opposite argument.
Which is true?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
kinda interested in this Clipper exec that you talk to.
name? role in organization? why he talks to random fans?
Check out http://fullyclips.com/ - Really Great Clippers blog!
david
Ticket usher.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 1, 2011 4:46 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
If I remember from when Jax first appeared
It was one of his fellow janitors at the spectrum. I am glad they kept those guys at the new training facility. Probably good for morale.
that's executive ticket usher to you!
he didn’t go to ticket ushering school for nothing :/
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
I love how this question was directed at neither of you 3
But you all needed to try to make some comment about it. Pure garbage. There is a reason I choose not to read most anything when it comes from any of you…but I digress. Jax, I am also curious as to the exec?
As I said above
Don’t hold your breath. Jax is a known story teller.
What are you curious about?
The Clipper brass thought MDSr was an arrogant SOB who was always full of excuses for why he was losing. John R defended the guy vociferously on this board for years, attacking anyone, arguing that injuries were a legit excuse.
Now he argues the opposite.
So the question remains – are injuries a valid excuse or not? In my view, injuries to key players explain the poor record. Is that an excuse? Debatable I suppose.
The three idiots above can attack me all they want to, but the question is valid.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
So no names huh?
Not your biggest lie you have put here I guess.
LOL
You are an idiot.
Sure bully
It’s pretty funny how little you know about the people who run the team you claim to be a “fan” of and what they think about the coaching staff.
You really add nothing except bullying.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Oh and I have no beef with Simmons
He is a comedy writer. Why would I take what he says as serious analysis? Who would do that?
Do you consider yourself a serious analyst?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Apr 1, 2011 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions
I knew you didn't have the guts to answer that
But the way you constantly denigrate the guy suggests you think you’re smarter or more serious than he. In reality, it’s just the opposite.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
LOL
You are an idiot.
It is bringing me amusement that you are crapping in losbolts’ thread for once.
Sure troll
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
To the surprise of nobody, Simmons was pushing the Rose for MVP storyline.
by Michael White on Apr 1, 2011 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions
He will use advanced stats
As long as they come to the same conclusion as his eye test. He has achieved false enlightenment.
Haha nice
John R….appreciate the Billy Madison reference at the bottom of your post (“in your rambling, incoherent,…….”)
Do you have any more gum more gum more gum more gum?
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
I would retitle this fanpost
“When advanced metrics don’t match my eye test and preconceived notions, I dismiss them.”
that's not fair to boltsfan, but it is fair for the article
’it is food for thought as to why judging players by stats and stats alone is not any more rational than judging them by the eye test and the eye test alone."
Boltsfan doesn’t make any statements that say one side is more right than the other.
But, Simmons is all over the place with his articles. This one is no exception, since BS fails to point out the injuries to the Bucks and that Maggs and Gooden were brought in to be backup role players
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
So are you saying boltsfan was holding this excerpt up to say Simmons was wrong?
I hadn’t considered that.
well
I took it as Boltsfan saying that the eye test and advanced metrics aren’t 100% right without some context.
I originally pointed out how using this article by BS is wrong because BS takes it out of context.
Of course, we will have to wait for Boltsfan’s input to clarify
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
That's correct, Bacek
Thanks for reading with benefit of the doubt and not preconceived notions. The quote you repeated above was in fact the essence of my point: “food for thought as to why judging players by stats and stats alone is not any more rational than judging them by the eye test and the eye test alone.”
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
So a non-point it is
As I mentioned in my comment. I was right all along.
by John R on Apr 1, 2011 9:58 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
There actually is a point there
You’re just too obtuse to get it.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
No there isn't
Wait, I thought you weren’t replying.
Your point, at best is non-committal, hazy, imprecise and incomplete. That’s being generous. Much easier to say that there is no point. Probably kinder too.
BBBBBAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
This post
has nothing to do with the Clippers. It was another jab at John R from Boltsfan. He could have at least tried to link it to the Clippers but its pretty obvious who he intended to read this.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
Huh?
A discussed of the merits of looking at advanced metrics in a vacuum versus using them as one tool for evaluation is an attack on one particular person? And such a discussion has nothing to do with the Clippers? I think your bias is clouding your analysis.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Right
because your posts in the past haven’t been exactly like this one. You took 5% of a much larger article (which actually had something directly about the Clips) and wrote this to call out John R again.
HOPE IS A GOOD THING
22. L.A. Clippers
The owner is reprehensible and needs to sell.
If the Blakers added LeBron would it be King James’ Blakers or just LeBlakers?
Anyway, if you pressed a RESET button for LeBron’s Summer of 2010 and asked the question, “Knowing what we know now, what would have been the best pick for him?” there’s only one answer …
(I’ll give you a second.)
(Come on, you’ll get it.)
(And … time!)
The Clippers! How much fun would it have been to watch LeBron play with Eric Gordon, a Suddenly In Shape Because LeBron Is Here Baron Davis, Chris Kaman, DeAndre Jordan and especially Blake Griffin? Wouldn’t that have been one of the ten most entertaining teams in the past 35 years? Let’s see … the Showtime Lakers, Bird’s 1986 Celts, the 2000-02 Kings, the ‘96 Bulls, the Seven Seconds or Less Suns, maybe the 1983 Sixers, maybe the 1993 Suns, maybe the 2002 Mavs, maybe the ’84 Knicks (just because of Bernard and MSG) … s—-, I’d rank the Pipe Dream Clips fifth or sixth. Throwing LeBron on the Knicks or Bulls would have been almost as fun, admittedly, but holy schnikes, LeBron AND Griffin on the same team? It makes me want to put on Jack’s “Lost” beard from Season 3 and say, "We have to go back … "
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
If you say so
But that hardly explains why, despite the fact that he has attacked me multiple times here in the comments, I haven’t responded to him at all. The truth is I have no interest in discussing this or anything else with him again. His mind is so closed that it’s utterly pointless.
In truth I was more interested in the exact discussion that has gone on in this thread, with people who actually have some interest in honest, respectful debate. Both MW and Bacek seemed to get it, and except for the parts where you attacked Jax and the two of you had a little bitch-slap fight, there were actually some insightful comments made (including, credit where credit is due, by you).
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
LOL
Given that the rest of your fanposts have been about me by name, we can see what you are about.
by John R on Apr 1, 2011 9:52 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
And yet
As much as you always complain about things being “about you,” here you are desperately trying to make it about you. It’s not. Now go f**k yourself and leave me alone.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
LOL
Well, more than one person assumed the same thing I did. Guess what? That makes it a you problem. You wrote those other fanposts. Its clear you regret it now. I suggested you take it back at the time and you refused.
Now it pretty much defines who you are, Sheriff.
BBBBBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
It's amazing how you desperately want everything to be about you
This was an insightful post with a number of good comments until you and your buddies derailed it.
Why are you so afraid of honest discussion?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Pot, meet kettle
It’s not about you either, despite your 11 new comments to the contrary.
Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
The eye test can be somewhat useful
For example, do you EVER notice Gomes except when he makes a shot? I sure as hell never do.
On the other hand, AFA and Moon make plays throughout the game, even wrong ones, and you can see that they are out there.
More than anything else, IMO, that Clip fans dont like about Gomes is that he fails the eye test so badly. It never seems like he is doing anything out there except missing shots.
I think the eye test is passable when discussing your own team. We DO watch every Clipper game. But utilizing the eye test for guys you see 2 or 3 times a year can be disastrous.
I like using the Mike Taylor example. How good do you think Knick fans think Taylor is based on the eye test?
by Michael White on Apr 1, 2011 5:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Ah I get it, but
The question is how many games does it take for the “eye test” to matter. 10? 15? 20?
But the "eye test" is different from stats
Based on basic stats (and possibly advanced ones too), Gomes is a better player this year than Aminu and Moon. Yet having only watched 15 games with Moon as a Clipper, I can say that based on what I have seen, Moon is better than Gomes.
What stats suggest Gomes is better than Moon or Aminu?
by Michael White on Apr 1, 2011 5:59 PM PDT up reply actions
PER: Gomes- 9.15, EWA: -1.4
PER: AFA- 9.89, EWA: -0.4
Moon isnt even on the list, meaing that he is lower than Gomes. While all of this indicates that all 3 of them suck, judging by the “eye test”, Moon has looked significantly better than both Gomes and AFA, yet his PER is obviously lower.
Hmm
From what I see here, Moon has the highest PER (10.2) followed by Aminu (9.9) and Gomes (9.1).
Based on WP/48 its not close at all. Moon is at .145, Aminu is at .058 and Gomes is at .012. The average player should be at .100 so only Moon is playing at an average or above average rate.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
I was using Hollinger: he must have weighed in Moon's PER on the Cavs as well
That is interesting to know anyway.
Gomes really sucks. Maybe we can ship him, Diogu, and Cook off for somebody of actual worth.
Based on these, why dont we try to resign Moon? He isnt great, but until AFA gets better, he can be the backup next year. He can also play SG, so if Foye or EG gets injured, he can backup there as well.
I hope they consider it
he’s 31 and relies mainly on his athleticism so he might not age too well (kind of like Gerald Wallace this year) but if they can’t sigcwould prn a FA (not too much out there) or trade for a good SF (and they don’t have a 2011 first round draft pick) then resigning Moon becomes a possibility. But then that would be essentially be another slap in the face to the fans as they traded a 1st round pick for the rights to a FA SF who they could have signed 2 months later. Heck the Cavs would have taken a Clips 2nd round pick (the Clips have 2 of these this year) and cap space for Moon at the deadline.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
bleh
if they can’t sigcwould prn a FA
should read “if they can’t sign a FA”. Watching the Celtics Hawks game in the backdrop.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
It might happen
Kind of like how Butler and Rhino were signed at the last minute. If they strikeout elsewhere and if the market for Moon is cool, their might be a marriage of convenience.
by Michael White on Apr 1, 2011 7:41 PM PDT up reply actions
And in basic stats terms, Gomes is averaging more PPG and RPG than Aminu and Moon
Though this is due to his far increased MPG.
Thats why basic stats are useless alone
If a player A plays twice as many minutes as player B then you’d expect player A to have twice as many in most stats.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
but also don't really trust
stats per 36 minutes. It is a bit too easy to say: hey player x who only plays 5 min a game his per 36 min are better then player y who plays 40 min a game
by BelgianClipper on Apr 2, 2011 2:16 AM PDT up reply actions
Don't get hung up on the word better
It causes lots of problems. It doesn’t matter who is better. It only matters who is more productive.
semantics
productive is also an interpretation, as much as better. Which player is more productive also depends how you evaluate his stats.
by BelgianClipper on Apr 2, 2011 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions
It isn't semantics though
As noted above, basketball is a game played 5v5. The eye test might be better at telling us who the better basketball player is; who would win a game of 1v1. I don’t know. That might be true. I don’t care who has better basketball skills. I care who can translate those into things that help his basketball team win. More productive is not the same thing as better.
As soon as players like Carmelo stop getting max contracts from the people supposedly experienced and learned enough to hand them out, I will start to hear debate for the eye test.
We find that measuring who is more productive in 5 minutes usually translates. The evidence that low playing time makes a player look better is generally false. In fact the opposite is more correct. More playing time generally makes a player look better. On paper.
Interesting
Most things I have read so far (not lot though) seems to suggest that a player with more playing time becomes less efficient shootingwise.
On Carmelo: seeing how Denver is doing fine without him and NY with him is about the same you might be right.
The max contract thing is quite interesting for an economist like myself. Perhaps one day I’ll write a fanpost about it.
by BelgianClipper on Apr 2, 2011 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions
WHY?
Why do people keep making fanposts like this? Haven’t we read enough pissing contests between boltsfan, ClipperChuck, Jax, and John R? Just shut up already!
Clippers // Chargers // Rays // Gators // Boise State
"The Lakers do win games. But things can change." - Blake Griffin
There's a weird sort of amusement that comes when reading threads like these,
Check out http://fullyclips.com/ - Really Great Clippers blog!
If you sift through the dirt, there's some gold to be found, though.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

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