about 1 year ago
John R
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Well there ya go
If you blame the lost season on losing EJ for all that time, you also have to blame the coach for playing DJ so little, he might as well have been injured. Of course there’s foul trouble and stamina issues with bigs like DJ, but the point more or less still stands.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
Some more food for thought
Ryan Gomes has played more minutes than EJ and DJ as well. EJ has to play at least 21 minutes to pass Gomes up.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
DJ played 1000+ fewer minutes than Blake
and has 4 more personal fouls?
Bam
One more scapegoat for Vinnie—-unlike EJ, Kaman is a very legitimate counterpart to DJ that reasonably should be pulling DJ’s minutes down. Except it’s a landslide when you look at games DJ has played or started versus the games Kaman has played or started. Not lookin’ good Vin Vin.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
charges don't make up for Griffin not putting a hand up most of the time on defense
He has gradually improved but he was border line lazy on defense for majority of the season. Some of the fouls on Jordan were going over to attempt to block or stop a play Griffin let go right by him. There is no excuse for not putting a hand up are trying to be aggressive on D reason why Griffin and Kaman are a poor tandem inside protecting the paint. With Jordan Griffin will try a little harder off of energy but there are still areas he needs to improve on.
So you don't think DJ can play defense without fouling?
Maybe that is fair, but hopefully he works on that in the off-season. Hope he likes watching video.
Takes a better effort all around to stop the fouling
He will get better at it which is the beauty of moving forward with him his talent still has room to develop. But no matter how hard he works if the perimeter defense does not attempt to play harder defense it’s going to be hard to just let their man go by. Gordon has taken a step down on defense and we have a down-grade on defense from Baron to Mo and on top of all that Gomes has been worse than a non-factor since the trade and has been worse than demoted to the bench he has been completely shut down.
Reason guys like Howard, Perkins and other D bigs get in foul trouble is when the teams win players don’t bring it and they have to help. All the other teams play in a defensive scheme to protect their bigs DJ is on his own to get it together the zone defense will only help so much. Jordan has been praised for his work ethic and the team has seen an improvement.
It's a pretty reasonable explanation.
1. DJ gets into early foul trouble
2. DJ wasn’t playing much of the 4th Qtr due to poor FT shooting and using the 3 guard line-up.
3. DJ was usually taken out when we needed another scorer.
* All legit reasons.
Plus one more reason
For much of the season DJ had a capable counterpart (Kaman) to share minutes with. Not so for Gordon; any substitute was a major downgrade.
DJ finsihed 4th quarters of Kaman when healthy
All times DJ was subbed defense and rebounding took a huge nose dive. Players were pulled in favor of Jordan for hustle plays when we need to scrap to close games
Hmmm
Do you realize that points 1 and 2 are in direct conflict? Assuming your own premises, 2 negates the problem in 1.
Of course I reject both, but I have doubts about this train of thought. I am not saying its not what VDN is doing, but it is fundamentally flawed. The three guard line-up especially if it is achieved by pulling DJ is just a really dumb idea. Its a dumb idea all the time, but its worse if you remove your best rebounders.
Thretch: This isn’t AYSO. You should play your best players the maximum amount of minutes.
That's why I hate the way coaches are completely tied to the "2 fouls in Q1 = sub" idea
If you have no intention of playing DJ in the final 5 minutes, why the hell do you ever sit him?
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
JVG said he wouldn't do it again if he comes back to coaching
Overheard during the Bulls/Magic game Sunday.
I have DJ as only fouling out once this season. There were clearly a significant number of Jordan minutes left on the floor.
Now I Get It
Took me awhile to figure it out. Good point.
Kind of obvious and counter-intuitive at the same time. Requires just a smidge of sophisticated thinking. Well beyond what we are expecting from our coach.
I guess the only thing against it is that you want players to be available, at least. But that argument couldn’t be weaker, really, especially when “FT problems at the end of games” has resulted in fouling out only once.
The other thing is that Kaman’s return reduced DJ minutes by quite a bit too.
by citizen zhiv on Apr 12, 2011 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions
What's funny, though, is the coaches may be right, only because of a culture that's been built in the NBA
I seem to remember reading in ESPN magazine about them doing some kind of test where they looked at how players play when they are in “foul trouble,” and the results weren’t good. Apparently, the players play more cautiously and hesitate, not wanting to get yanked by the coach, resulting in decreased performance.
Now, in ESPN’s test, I doubt any of those coaches were telling their players not to worry about foul trouble, which probably could have made all the difference.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
Every coach using the same old thinking causing a singular set of ideas that eventually forms a stagnant and uniform culture?
Its almost like coaches wouldn’t matter at that point.
Seems kind of circular
All coaches think the same, thus creating groupthink. Therefore coaches don’t matter. But do all coaches think the same? I doubt it.
Well, while I think that overall, coaches matter
I don’t know any coaches currently in the NBA that have a policy of letting guys play regardless of foul trouble… so in this case, it probably doesn’t matter who the coach is. If DJ picks up 2 early fouls in the first 2 minutes, he’s sitting.
I think coaches should figure out the foul-rates of players, on a per-36 or per-40 basis (depending on the player’s stamina) and decide whether to bench players in “foul trouble” based on that measure.
So hypothetically, if Eric Gordon fouls only 3 times per 36 (one foul per 12 minutes), and he picks up 2 early fouls in the first 2 minutes, there’s not a huge reason to bench him because you could theoretically play him 48 more minutes to reach his average time before fouling out. Logically, in this case, 2 fouls in the first quarter shouldn’t mean squat to EJ because the chances of him fouling out at all are slim to none.
But if Kaman fouls 5 times per 36 (one foul per 7 minutes 12 seconds) and he picks up 2 fouls in the first 2 minutes, his foul-rate is much too high, and he will probably foul out if you keep playing him regular minutes. In that case, at best, you’d probably only get 29 more minutes out of him, and you won’t be able to play him the 34 minutes he averaged last year.
So in these hypothetical situations, Kaman would actually be in foul trouble, while EJ would not. Yet I don’t know of any coach that makes this distinction.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
Actually, that is not always true
If you have several of your “best” players (depending of course on how that’s defined) playing the same position, then they shouldn’t be playing.
I do find it funny that you apparently think that you can coach.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
If you have several of your "best" players (depending of course on how that’s defined) playing the same position, then they shouldn’t be playing.
That sentence doesn’t even begin to mean anything or make sense.
Condition = best players shouldn’t be playing.
LOL, you are an idiot.
It's pretty funny to see your "advice" that coaches should play their "best" players
Since for years you preached to all of us that players are interchangeable like widgets and it didn’t matter which players should play. But I guess now that you’ve embraced Berri’s form of advanced metrics, you’ve changed your tune.
In any event, it would seem obvious that if two of your best players play the same position they shouldn’t necessarily be playing at the same time. I’m certain that you understood that this was my point.
Curious though, I thought coaches don’t matter. Have you also abandoned that point of view?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
If I understand your point correctly
For me, it’s more like… If your two players only play well at once position, and they both play the same position (for the sake of this argument, let’s pretend we have Kevin Martin along with Eric Gordon, and they both suck horribly at PG or SF), then you may not be doing yourself any favors by playing them both at the same time. The solution, it would seem, would be to trade one of them, since you’re not maximizing your value.
But with DJ and Kaman, I think either one would be fine at PF, so I’m not sure it fits the situation. There’s no reason, that I can see, where playing them at the same time is a bad idea (specific situations excluded, of course, since we don’t want Kaman matching up with LeBron playing PF, or whatever).
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
There is no problem
He is just being as dishonest as ever.
First there is no comparison this season between Jordan and Kaman. Jordan has been much better. Kaman should not be a reason to sit Jordan.
Second, much of the time Jordan was sitting to get minutes to guys like Cook, Diogu and Foye. So to say there is a same position problem is not true as well.
If anyone it's dishonest it's you - unlike you I don't have the time to
spend bullying everyone around here. You can lie about how you’ve shifted your position over the years all you want but the truth is there.
I would disagree with Erik’s point above that playing DJ and Kaman at the same time makes sense. That would require BG to play SF, which is not a good position for him.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Oh, I meant when BG was off the floor
Sorry, should’ve been more specific… yeah I don’t want BG at SF either.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
But that would be preventing you from playing your best player, right?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
That's why I think trading isn't a bad idea
I don’t want to waste Kaman’s input by leaving him on the bench, but I don’t want to lose DJ’s either. And I certainly don’t want them playing at the risk of losing Blake’s minutes. I feel like we’re overloaded with bigs, and at a huge shortage of quality small forwards.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
Exactly
Statements such as “you suck as a coach if you don’t maximize minutes of your best players” are silly and reflect more of a bias against a particular coach than any serious analysis.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Notice also
That he has not stated if he thinks Jordan should have gotten more minutes or not.
This is the problem with Jax, he isn’t FOR anything. He only exists to argue and be against everything.
The next time he expresses his own opinion instead of just reacting to others, it will be the first time.
Actually, I do express opinions all the time, and unlike yours, they
Aren’t intended to push an agenda (VDN sucks even though coaches don’t matter to me) or to bully others (which you don’t deny) or to shock.
At bottom, you know nothing about the actual game of basketball, which is why you’re so quick to attack others and look to stats to try to support your arguments.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
And was I against the change in regime this year?
No, no, I wasn’t. That was you.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Since for years you preached to all of us that players are interchangeable like widgets and it didn’t matter which players should play.
This is a lie. But you are Jax so it is almost redundant to write that.
“I’m certain that you understood that this was my point.”
If that was your point you are as poor of a communicator as I represented.
“Curious though, I thought coaches don’t matter. Have you also abandoned that point of view?”
As I always say, LOL you are an idiot.
That's the truth
You said numerous times here that it does not matter what players play. Anyone can put up the stats.
When I get some time I’ll go back since you seem to be relying on my lack of time here to try to pretend that you didn’t say what you know you did. Repeatedly.
Relying on other posters’ laziness to hide your own past views. Really impressive, little man.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
The AYSO comment is just absurd
By this thinking if Jordan is the better center, he should play 32 minutes and Kaman 16 as his backup. This is how Orlando plays. But Jordan is nowhere near Howard, whereas Kaman is better than … whoever is their backup C. If Kaman was as inadequate as most backup C’s I’d agree with you. But his skills merit more than 16 minutes. Plus Kaman has some situational advantages, in which case you’d play him even when Jordan is not exhausted. This viewpoint is simply too absolute and does not fit the real world.
“You should play your best players the maximum minutes” only applies if there is a clear distinction and no situational differences. There are plenty of bench players that get significant minutes in the NBA. Thus every NBA coach (Popovich included) sub-optimizes his line-up, not just VDN.
I doubt any coach in the league would agree with you that Kaman should only play minimal sub minutes.
I can see that logic
But I think it indicates more that you should trade one of them, so you’re not shooting yourself in the foot by giving DJ a lot of minutes. It’s not good to be bursting with talent at one position, and seriously lacking in talent at another position. My thought process is that the only time any position should have too much talent is if all of your other starting spots are filled. (i.e. you shouldn’t have a 6th man if you still don’t have a 3rd man)
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
I agree Erik
However, neither DJ not Kaman is an all-world C, I don’t think you need to find 40 minutes for both of them. And you could play them together occasionally when BG rests. So it’s not the end of the world to have them both. If you had 2 Dwight Howards, you’d definitely trade one. I guess I’m saying I don’t think we’re really “bursting with talent” at the C, just sort of gently oozing.
Since neither is all-world, you’re not going to get an all-world SF in a trade. So the opportunity cost is not tremendous anyway. These guys are not blockbuster trade material.
I hesitate to trade: look at what we’ve got when we trade a flawed starter … another flawed starter (e.g. Baron for Mo
Definitely not 40 minutes each
More like 30-35 each, which would result in some overlap. Personally, I could live with some DJ/Kaman tandems, but if that’s not happening and we’re only playing one of them 15 minutes while Ryan Gomes gets 35+ minutes, something’s wrong.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
At bottom, he's just looking for a reason to criticize VDN
This is a guy who defended sub .400 for many years and his schtick is really to try to show he was right.
We all have to endure this idiot’s rambling attempts to find self worth through a blog on a daily basis on this site. Unfortunately.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
"Do you realize that points 1 and 2 are in direct conflict?"
Hmmm….How so?
1. DJ does get into early foul trouble
2. Even if DJ isn’t in foul trouble in the 4th, VDN chooses to go the 3 guard line-up.
One point isn’t in direct conflict with the other.
DJ has also played in more games, what's your point?
Let’s see the W/L % in EJs played games vs DJs played games.
I’d exclude the 5-21 start.
Proud member of Club FTR. falconPUNCH! for president!
Agreed…unfortunately the team did start 5-21. And DJ and EJ were both playing in those games. You can’t have an honest discussion of this season when you throw out over a quarter of the games.
by lbclips on Apr 12, 2011 5:36 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Since they were both playing that stretch, it doesn't matter if you include or exclude the 5-21
But it’s also really just a measure of how good the team is with and without EJ (since DJ pretty much played every game). What I got out of this is that DJ’s benching is just as significant as EJ’s injury—-and unfortunately, management chose to bench DJ. How can we really know how much worse this team is when DJ isn’t on the floor, since a players’ WL% has no relationship to minutes played per game?
This gets us started, but it’s by no means perfect (given Kaman’s tiny sample size). It is interesting to note that replacing Foye for Gordon didn’t change a whole lot, though… which is kind of a bummer because I love to hate Randy Foye.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
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