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Weak.
One can assume that derogatory terms are tossed around pretty loosely every night in the NBA.
Aaahhh. To be a member of a protected class.
by oneight on Apr 13, 2011 6:10 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
Not sure what you are trying to say here
that you wish you could be discriminated against?
I think the fine is more than fair. He went out of his way to say it.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 13, 2011 6:22 PM PDT up reply actions
I am discriminated against.
Being a straight, white, Christian male who was born in America, I don’t receive the same pathetic, pandering, PC protections.
The league hasn’t taken a bold stand on rape, but God forbid a gay slur be uttered.
The dollar amount makes this as ridiculous as the Milph suspension. Give me a break.
by oneight on Apr 13, 2011 9:35 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Oh, be quiet.
You’re seriously acting like a child. Not only is your point ridiculous and very flawed, it has no place on this site. You know damn well if Kobe had muttered some slur against whites the reaction would’ve been the same. Seriously, pathetic.
"Yayyyy! The Clippers got a coach, we will win now!" - My girlfriend.
False.
I DO NOT believe that the fine would have been $100,000 for an anti-white slur, nor do I think it should be. My white sensibilities would not be even slightly offended by any such slur.
The fine is knee-jerk and excessive. I’m not sure that the league ever even acknowledged that Kobe was credibly accused of rape which is a far more serious transgression than using an anti-gay slur.
The league will do as it pleases in these situations but don’t think for a second that it isn’t anything more than pandering out of fear of backlash. That’s why I think its weak.
by oneight on Apr 13, 2011 10:50 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
hahaha
“Being a straight, white, Christian male who was born in America, I don’t receive the same pathetic, pandering, PC protections.”
this is ordinarily the kind of statement that would get me all riled up, but really all i can do is laugh at people with this mindset.
yeah, you’re the victim.
Im not a victim.
Glad I could make you laugh.
by oneight on Apr 14, 2011 7:06 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
The funniest part...
Is that you’re actually a member of the MOST protected group in America. You win for biggest douche bag comment of the 2010-2011 season. And to think, it all came down to the last post game thread!!! Well done, sir.
At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.
This thread is about Kobes fine not post game wrap.
If I was protected you would be ripped and likely banned for the douche bag insult. Thanks for making my point for me.
by oneight on Apr 14, 2011 12:30 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Wowzers.
Your delusions run deep.
At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.
From Silver Screen and Roll
“The NBA announced this afternoon that it has fined Kobe Bryant $100,000 for calling referee Bernie Adams a “faggot” in last night’s game. Commissioner David Stern called the remark “offensive and inexcusable” and said, “While I’m fully aware that basketball is an emotional game, such a distasteful term should never be tolerated.”
The slur that Kobe used is one that we do not allow to appear on this site, in the comments sections or elsewhere. Although we recognize that people who use it do so with different motivations, not all of them self-consciously malicious, we nonetheless find it offensive and hateful. Not knowing the meaning of a word, or being dismissive of that meaning, is not an excuse. Regardless of Kobe’s intention, the expression is one of disparagement and loathing toward a group of people who’ve done nothing to deserve it. Gays and lesbians are part of our families and communities. They’re part of the NBA. And whether they feel like announcing themselves or not, they’re part of our community here at Silver Screen and Roll. We welcome them and always will."
Real classy of Dexter Fishmore and he’s hearing it on his comments section. Good for him and the site.
For anyone to think that negativity towards the LGBT community is acceptable because “everyone does it” or because “I don’t really mean it like that” is ignorant and naive. Grow up. The world has changed and so should our minds/thoughts/actions.
lol, he is an ambassador and a figurehead of the NBA?
Not to mention actual legal restrictions that the network runs into when stuff like this happens and the audience sees it. The NBA has the power to levy fines based on player behavior, this isn’t the privacy of Kobe’s own home or a street corner.
"Yayyyy! The Clippers got a coach, we will win now!" - My girlfriend.
call your co-worker/collegue a faggot
and say it’s freedom of speech and see how long you last there…
"Blessed is the person who is too busy to worry in the daytime
and too sleepy to worry at night."
Author Unknown
by Lawler's Law on Apr 14, 2011 8:29 AM PDT up reply actions
I hate politically correctness!
They can go fudge themselves in the butt!
"Every existing thing is born without reason, prolongs itself out of weakness, and dies by chance" -Jean-Paul Sarte
I was thinking the same thing
he got fined for calling the ref an obnoxious harley rider?
Also the episode where Stan's Dad uses the "N" word in National TV
"Every existing thing is born without reason, prolongs itself out of weakness, and dies by chance" -Jean-Paul Sarte
I hope Kobe apologized
Yes, people say that all the time…yes, I have said the same thing as Kobe in a similar feeling of frustration…..yes, it appears Kobe does not have any personal hatred of the gay community….but, it is a childish thing to say something that demeans somebody else (whether intentional or not). I hope Kobe can be a grown up and apologize.
He did apologize
But it sounded pretty scripted and insincere. If you really are enlightened enough to know it’s wrong, you wouldn’t have said it in the first place. The apology was expected and obligatory, so he obliged.
His final statement, “I’ll abide by the league’s decision” is meaningless. OF COURSE he’ll abide by the ruling, he has to!
hahahaha....
I had to crack up during this morning’s commute…Cowherd had a shill from 710 saying how kobe came on their station and apologized for the incident and how he wanted this behind him…I heard the interview…it was an incensere TRY at an apology…For once, Bean, own up to something, apologize and try to learn from it…
"Blessed is the person who is too busy to worry in the daytime
and too sleepy to worry at night."
Author Unknown
by Lawler's Law on Apr 14, 2011 8:39 AM PDT up reply actions
Yes, he apologized
And to me it sounded sincere. I doubt he meant to call the guy a deragoraty homophobic term. He just used a swear word in the heat of the moment. I would imagine that the amount of the fine has to do in part with his abilty to pay it without much of an issue and the fact that this can be seen as an example to other players and to show the customers / fans that the league means business.
I don’t see this as a free speech issue.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
The dollar amt for the fine was ridiculous
Was it wrong for Kobe to use such terminology? Yes. It’s a derogatory term and should not be used. Did he get fined WAY WAY too much? Yes. $100,000 is a lot of money, even by today’s standards. Would a fine of 5000 or even 10,000 be appropriate? Probably yes. Kobe said it in the heat of Moment; I’m sure most of us have let slip an “F-bomb” accidentally once or twice on accident in a inappropriate area. It was an understandable slip. Inappropriate, yes, but it was in the heat of the Moment.
Obviously 100k would not put a big dent on Kobe’s wallet, but that’s an obscene amount for a fine for something verbal. If say a someone that make’s much less money like a DJ said something similar. Would fining DJ more than 11% of his year’s salary be appropriate? No. This set’s a dangerous precedent for the NBA, as you also can’t charge DJ less than Kobe for saying something similar, otherwise you’d be biased against Kobe.
The most dangerous thing in basketball is flagrant fouls becuase you can end someone’s career like that. Those still should be the most impact to one’s salary.
It’s verbal, no one was physically harmed by it and it did not further incite anything, unlike stuff said at a Dodgers Game. A 5-10K fine would be appropriate.
Kobe should have apologized and be done with it. He would have saved a large chunk of change.
This is going to be my team, and we're going to rise together.
-Clipper Darrell
100k is chump change for Kobe; Additionally, the money goes to charity. Who loses?
"Yayyyy! The Clippers got a coach, we will win now!" - My girlfriend.
i'm curious how this really hits kobe
I was never a big fan of the “oh well that’s nothing to a guy making that much money” argument. That’s still like a full college education for one of his daughters. Most rich people I know still treat money the same way I would, albeit, I don’t know anyone near the same bracket as Kobe.
One less ride on his helicopter
"Every existing thing is born without reason, prolongs itself out of weakness, and dies by chance" -Jean-Paul Sarte
Dollar amount is fine
I agreed with you at first then I thought about it. It is nothing for Kobe. Anything less and nobody would be discussing this issue. If he could get paid millions in salary AND in endorsements, then he can be a gentleman and treat people with respect.
Barkely is wrong. Athletes are role models. If a kid buys your shirt, then you should be respectful. Kobe should be a leader not a follower.
my only problem with the dollar amount
is that it seems to be based on who kobe is, and possibly the amount of money he makes. I suppose that makes sense if you’re thinking that he is one of those players kids look up to, so he should be punished harder for not setting a good example. And, it’s also justified in that if a suspension was mandated, then the “fine” is giving up a game salary, which obviously would depend on what a guy makes.
It just seems weird to me that there’s no way you can fine like Ebanks or even like Matt Barnes 100k since you’d be taking away like 10% of their salary for one outburst. Seems like it should be a more general fine or else you’re setting up a tough call the next time something happens. If a “lesser” player is caught for a similar infraction down the road, would anyone think they’re taking it easy on him if they only give him like a 5-10k fine?
Poor White Christian Male
Why are you poor you have had every opportunity in this country? There was a recent organization formed it is called the Teabagger party, here all you poor white discrimnated against individuals can vent! Give me a break.
On a side note:
kobe should have been suspended from the playoffs…
The term "teabagger" is a slur.
You wouldn’t want to offend anyone, would you?
The racial diversity of the Tea Party has been well documented at fair-minded websites but go ahead with your lazy stereotyping. Its what I’ve come to expect from victocrats and wards of the nanny state.
if I’m a teabagger, doesn’t that make you a teabagee? Enjoy that :)
by oneight on Apr 14, 2011 11:34 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Why on you even on this blog?
From what I can tell you only comment on these race sensitive issues. You can go find another forum if you want to talk race/politics/taxes.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 14, 2011 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm on thus blog because i am a Clipper fan.
I gave my opinion on the Fanshot topic because it is something I feel passionately about. You don’t agree with me, and that’s fine. That does not suddenly translate to me not belonging here.
If you are really shocked to find divergent opinions in a community this size, I would guess you live in a bubble.
by oneight on Apr 14, 2011 1:04 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
you have every right to be here
and i am happy that you are a member of this community. but you have to be pretty tone deaf to make a comment that you, as a white/Christian/male, are discriminated against and are not a member of a “protected class.” right or wrong in your position (i happen to believe that you are wrong, obviously), you had to know that your comments would be inflammatory and a firebrand for criticism given the nature of your complaint.
attacking the so-called “protection” afforded minority groups in such a cavalier manner is an easy way to piss off a lot of people, whites/Christians/males included.
A $100,000 fine isnt a "so-called" protection.
It is a statement from the league that you have effed with the wrong group of people.
You seem to be trying to frame me as whining about being discriminated against which totally misses the point that I don’t care if someone insults me based on my race or faith or sex and that I am sick of watching people pander to the groups that bitch the loudest or wield the most influence. That’s exactly what happened here.
I keep asking myself, “if I was gay would I really give a s#!t what Kobe said to an official in a fit of anger?” No. No I effing wouldn’t. What Kobe says has NO impact on my life or how I am treated by friends, family, coworkers or complete strangers soooo is the league going out of its way to pander to a militant group like GLAAD? They sure are and its kinda embarrassing.
The fine was ridiculous. So pointing out something this absurd is cavalier? I guess.
by oneight on Apr 14, 2011 4:51 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I have to wonder
Have you ever even been discriminated against? For you to say something like, “no [you] effing wouldn’t” be upset by Kobe’s comment, one must assume that you’ve experienced being on the tail-end of prejudice and discrimination before.
Or are you talking about how you didn’t get a scholarship or get into a particular university because you’re not a minority? Maybe you should focus on all the times you didn’t get pulled over by the police for “driving suspiciously.” Oh what pain!
What you don’t seem to understand is that if the league does NOTHING about this, then Kobe calls a referee a “faggot,” and suddenly the league is okay with this. Now, if I’m a gay man, I’m hesitant to even consider joining a league that has no intention of defending me. Try taking even the tiniest of steps outside of your little pity-party world, and consider how someone as iconic as Kobe Bryant using an anti-gay slur might affect the average gay person. If you can.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
The league has to fine or suspend him. No question that is appropriate.
$100,000? Excessive. As a conservative and a Christian my faith and values are openly mocked by Hollywood with regularity. Because of it I have developed a thicker skin and learned who to tune out and even love some shows (South Park, Tosh.0) that freely insult these things. Not that big a deal.
by oneight on Apr 14, 2011 5:57 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
The GLBT community are treated as second class citizens on a daily basis
The way conservatives Christians are made fun of in the media is akin to how the media makes fun of Charlie Sheen or Donald Trump. Bringing down the privileged makes for good, money-making television because it makes the (middle-class) viewer closer to the same level as these millionaires/billionaires. Being insensitive to a community that is already being harassed (not that you were, but rather Kobe was) is like kicking a 3-legged dog. That “thick skin” is just a fourth leg, imo.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
Did you really just compare me to Charlie Sheen or Donald Trump?
I am the middle class and I’ve never done a thing to Hollywood other than fork over my hard earned money just to be insulted because I have traditional views and values that they find mockable. And as to the money making aspect of it, if all Hollywood wanted to do was make money they would only make G rated films. The anti-conservative dreck that they churn out always fails. Its agenda driven, not profit driven. Educate yourself before you attempt to downplay their hatred of middle America, conservatives, Christians and the like.
I never said what Kobe said was OK. I made no attempt to excuse it. You just made light of the most common, mainstream bigotry in the United States today. Effing Charlie Sheen. Seriously?
by oneight on Apr 14, 2011 11:28 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Looks like you completely misunderstood the point
I compared the media’s satire of white christians to the media’s satire of privileged celebrities. The mockery is considered “okay” because the target hasn’t been victimized already. The fact that Sheen and Trump are douchebags is just the cause of the mockery, but not why it’s “okay” in the media. If a member of a “protected” class is being a douchebag, it’s not “okay” because they are already victims of prejudice, so the media can’t mock them. Does that make sense? Sorry, I didn’t mean to compare you to Sheen and Trump.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
Yeah, brother. My head is spinning at this point.
How long does the mockery (which is often mean spirited and distasteful) go on before we say its prejudicial and no longer funny? In the case of Hollywood, its crossed the line to demonization to the point where, again, profits don’t matter rather the agenda takes precedence.
by oneight on Apr 15, 2011 12:52 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
suspension
Would cost kobe far more than 100k. He makes close to 300k a game.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 14, 2011 9:22 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Right
because aside from this topic the last time you even participated in a thread was about the UCLA student. Try to stick to basketball related topics if possible.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 14, 2011 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions
This is a basketball-related topic, CC
And it wasn’t started by this poster. I don’t agree with the guy on this subject but he has every right to post here and to utter his opinions.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Thanks for the defense.
I feel the need to clarify that I do not feel that white, Christian males are victimized. Affirmitive action discriminates against whites in the work force and school admissions based solely on race and not economic conditions. Not a fan.
Hate crime legislation says that if someone beats me mercilessly it wasn’t nice but if they do it to a gay person or a black, Asian or Hispanic person that it is far worse and worthy of greater punishment.
As a male, I have absolutely no say in the eyes of the law whether or not my pregnant girlfriend aborts my unborn child despite the fact that the life she carries is part of me too. This one assumes consensual sex.
When Bonzi Wells told Michael Finley that he would never win a ring playing along side those white boys (Dirk and Nash) nobody blinked an eye. And no one should have because in spite of their whiteness he had a far better chance of winning with them than with the easily forgetten Wells. Judging ones abilities based on race looks pretty foolish in this case. Affirmative action at the player level would kill the NFL and the NBA and probably make hockey watchable.
Finally, I owe you an apology for an unwarranted attack last season and possibly several the previous season. I have appreciated your optimism this year.
Sorry for rambling.
by oneight on Apr 14, 2011 5:24 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Don't apologize, you're being way more clear now
I think a lot of assumptions were being made about your original 2 posts.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
i don't get it
you say you do not feel victimized, yet go on to give several examples where your demographic is “discriminated” against, implying victimization. you may not feel like a victim, but you certainly are writing like one. point by point:
there are many well-established arguments in favor of affirmative action.
you do not understand hate crime legislation, which targets crimes where someone is specifically attacked because of social group identity. around 20% of all hate crimes are committed against whites.
are you seriously advocating that a woman be forced to carry a child to term against her wishes?
this conversation bums me out, man. discrimination is a serious problem in our society, and i don’t understand how affording protections for people from groups that have been historically (and presently) mistreated is somehow negatively affecting anyone. hopefully one day these protections won’t be necessary, but certainly not now.
moreover, i am an advocate of free speech, and i think the fine was excessive, but the NBA had to do it. you can’t say faggot on primetime TV, so why should Kobe be allowed to say it on air? is it too much to ask that professional athletes be held to the same standards that are required of other entertainers?
its not a free speech issue so whether or not you advocate free speech is irrelevant.
The NBA is a business and Kobe does not have the right to say whatever he wants. A fine is appropriate. My beef is with the size of the fine.
Don’t tell me that I don’t understand hate crime legislation. I understand that violent crime is hateful in nature and I do not distinguish between motivations.
I reject the idea of abortion as birth control, its most common use, however I do not advocate forcing a woman to carry a child to term. I do wish that sexually active women would take responsibility for their choices but personal responsibility isn’t very popular these days.
Don’t be bummed out, dude. Discrimination is not nearly as big a problem as you make it out to be. If Kobe refused to apologize and the league did nothing to punish him, the fans would reject him and he would become a pariah just like John Rocker.
I am not a victim and have not felt victimized since I was a whiny teenager. Affirmative action has never affected me personally. Neither has abortion or hate crime. I am simply aware that these things exist and discriminate. That’s it.
by oneight on Apr 14, 2011 9:02 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
What's wrong with
A little discrimination if the effect is to try to undo hundreds of years of discrimination as a result of “traditional” values? That term is pretty funny. Because the tradition you’re talking about meant that women were treated as property, blacks and other non-whites as subhuman, etc, and the effect of that kind of treatment is that there is an underclass here. So affirmative action is intended to try to fix that problem. Does it have the effect of discrimination in some cases? Yes. Is it worth it to try to fix the problem ? That’s a question we all need to answer I suppose. But it is interesting to watch people who come from the same group that devastated these minority groups cry foul when the shoe is on the other foot.
I am white and I believe we have a
responsibility to right the past wrongs. I don’t think that given the nature of the underclass simply pretending the problem doesn’t exist is sufficient.
This is getting far afield. Interesting topic though.
Far off topic I know.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Apr 15, 2011 6:28 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I dont pretend the "problem" doesnt exist. I just acknowledge that it Isnt a problem anymore.
by oneight on Apr 15, 2011 6:59 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Not sure what you're acknowledging
I think you mean that in your opinion it’s not a problem any more. I would imagine that you’re a white male because I doubt most members of protected classes would share your views in that regard. Also, how would you measure whether discrimination exists any longer? Because statistics would tend to show otherwise. As would the eye test. Have you ever been to South Los Angeles? I would submit that it’s not a very nice place to live.
Let’s take blacks, for example. For four hundred years they were plucked out of their homes in Africa by people who are “traditionalists” to be dragged across the Atlantic to be sold to other “traditionalists” to be their slaves. That ended about 150 years ago officially, but discirminatory laws on their face continued until the 1960s and many would argue such laws continue de facto until today. You don’t think that blacks are still to a large extent a significant underclass in this country? I would suggest that you just compare statistics. There’s a big problem. To say that discrimination doesn’t exist is not accurate and doesn’t do anything to rid us of the effects of 400 years of it. So those such as yoiurself are reaping the benefits of the subjugation of an entire race for 400 years and to dismiss the issue by saying it no longer exists seems to be a somewhat opportunistic stance.
Your comments about abortion are also interesting. There you chide women for not making correct decisions re premarital sex but you don’t acknowledge that the problem of abortion involves the collision of a number of rights. One of those rights is that of a woman to do what she wants to with her own body. Your attitude on that subject (failing to even ackonwledge it to use your term) speaks volumes about how important you believe that a woman’s right to choose is.
Now, I understand that much of what you believe likely comes from the Bible. I certanly respect that. However, this is a pluralistic society and the Bible is not the law. In addition, the Bible is capable of many differing interpretations.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
I have a high school diploma and I swing a hammer for a living.
How am I reaping the benefits of the subjugation of an entire race?
Your view on abortion ignores the life growing in the womb. You advocate the wholesale slaughter of the most innocent form of life based on what is most convenient for an irresponsible woman? Fine. Americans say ok and I voice my opinion with a vote. I don’t like the idea of forcing anyone to do anything with their body. We are given free will. That doesn’t mean I have to appreciate abortion.
I always pictured you as a black dude. The “my man” thing I guess.
by oneight on Apr 15, 2011 8:06 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Re Abortion
No, I’m not ignoring the fact that there are numerous issues in play here. I was merely pointing out that the way you described the issue, you were ignoring some of the issues on the other side. Obviously this is a difficult issue which our society continues to grapple with. I certainly respect your point of view.
But remember though there are alot of people who are downtrodden who have already been born who need your help too. Such as the mentally retarded who tend to be homeless and who society just seems to shun. I try to volunteer once in a while at a shelter but I should do that more often.
Nope, not black – half German/Jewish, half American / English background. Funny you say that though, I tend to relate to many different types of people.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
I picture him as a black dude
With gigantic steel arms.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
Blacks are an underclass because of patronization
which is really just a soft form of racism. Affirmative Action suggests that minority groups are incapable of making it on the merits.
The underclass is perpetuated by the new slavery; welfare.
Also, the education system imprisons inner city children in failing schools in favor of teachers unions that is more interested in tenure and benefits.
There is a new plantation system, and the politicians are the masters.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
I see you've found the conservative talking points
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
I dont pretend the "problem" doesnt exist. I just acknowledge that it Isnt a problem anymore.
Where’s John Rocker? Where’s Tim Hardaway? Our soceity rejects their bigotry by and large and they either fall in or go away.
To suggest that I should be penalized for the sins of white bigots in the past is pretty offensive. The free market and the free market of ideas will sort these things out. No need to discriminate against anyone. My family immigrated here from Germany in the 40s but go ahead and lump me in with the other white people. Great.
Don’t confuse traditional practices with traditional values. The two are very, very different. If it wasn’t for the love of Jesus, the black man in America would likely still be in chains.
I’m blown away that you say I’m from the same group that devastated minority groups. WTF? My wife is queen in my household! I judge men and women based on what is inside and try to see all people through Jesus eyes. I often fail but I am no bigot.
by oneight on Apr 15, 2011 7:48 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
What do you think should be done?
Don’t you think that all of those who live in our society should have a similar playing field to begin with?
If so, knowing that the underclass happened because of what our ancestors, don’t you think that something should be done to change things? The problem with doing nothing, given that you have such an advantage, is that it tends to keep the status quo. That’s not really fair in my opinion. Yes, you yourself did nothing to deserve the penalty. But in my view we all have obligations and all this means is that to make things fair whites just have to work a little harder.
I didn’t say that you were a bigot. I don’t think you’re a bigot.
Not sure I understand how it is that Christianity saved blacks from slavery. Weren’t most of the people that came over here and founded the country Christians? Didn’t they all have slaves? What about the Crusades? Wasn’t that slaughter in the name of Christianity? The Inquisition?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Dang it. I keep doing that.
If I own a business and only hire people based on race, sex, religion or sexual preference, the likelihood of me being able to compete with someone who ignores those factors and hires based on capability to perform at a high level is nil. Same with how I conduct myself in my personal life. If I choose to be openly racist, sexist or homophobic, outside of some fringe groups like Westboro Baptist or neo nazis or militant Islamic fundamentalists I will be rejected by soceity. You never responded to the disappearance of John Rocker or Tim Hardaway or how about Isaiah Washington? Remember him. Dude went on a tirade against a gay coworker in which he called the guy a faggot and I’m not sure if he has worked in Hollywood since. You just can’t get away with discrimination anymore and so treating it like a problem only succeeds in keeping that way in the minds of people who are not really paying attention.
The idea that all men are CREATED equal is biblical and I am positive that if Martin Luther King Jr. were still alive he would tell you that his strength and conviction to fight for civil rights was God given. Same goes for many other non-white and white civil rights champions of his era.
Do you really want to compare todays religious climate in America to the Crusades or the Inquisition? Fair enough. Start with Islam because Christians don’t kill people who disagree with or slander them. In fact, its Christians who are commonly on the receiving end of religious violence and persecution across the world these days. Let’s try to keep it relevant.
I’m also of German-Jewish descent.
by oneight on Apr 15, 2011 12:43 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
So should we pay reparations?
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Yah that's funny
In all seriousness, paying reparations would work if the harm wasn’t permanent. Money alone won’t fix this problem IMO.
What do you think should be done?
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Nothing
Just treat everyone the same. Divisions exist because of resentment, most of which now stems from the perception of favoritism. Politicians indulge in race and class warfare. Political decisions cause divisions.
“We” can’t do anything about the past, and we certainly can’t remedy the future by giving preferential treatment to one group over another.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Hmm
that sounds reasonable except for the problem that there isn’t a fair starting position for everyone (and much of it is tied to race/socio-economic conditions). My guess is the heir of a Rockefeller is far better off than some kid who grows up in the projects.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 15, 2011 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions
You and I agree on something!!
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Yea I know
I agree with pretty much everything you wrote above.
I suggest you guys all watch this South Park Episode.
http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s11e01-with-apologies-to-jesse-jackson
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 15, 2011 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions
See, I'm a uniter
Leave this stuff to me.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
True
Social Darwinism is a harsh reality. Governments can’t fix it.
There is no such thing as a level playing field.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Yes
Can’t wait to see the new movie.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
haha, game over
i remember reading Mein Kampf when i was younger, just so i could see how flawed and idiotic Hitler’s philosophies were.
i get the same feeling when i read Rand. what an idiotic worldview to espouse.
(although i do like her books, and if you haven’t read her interview with Playboy you should definitely check it out online, she’s absolutely fantastic in it)
You seem to struggle with comparisons
First it was comparing 21st century gays to Jim Crow era blacks and interned Japanese, and now you compare Ayn Rand to Hitler. Anything else you want to wow me with?
I’m not a 100% Rand devotee. She is a flawed human. But I do subscribe to the premise that we as humans own ourselves and our labor, and that society has no right to it.
I’ll check out that Playboy article. Can’t wait to read about how Rand stuck Jews in ovens.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
no
that was a personal comparison, like it was easy for me to see the holes in her philosophy just as it was with MK. i am in no way comparing her work to Hitlers! i enjoy Rand and her overall theme of self-determination, like a lot!
she was a rad, principled human being and i respect her a great deal, however flawed her philosophies may be.
seriously, check out that article, she’s gangbusters.
Just looked at the article
Yes, I did read that. Years ago. She is indeed flawed in some areas. I’m by no means an objectivist. But I do like her work, particularly her opposition to communism. She was an anti-fascist.
I believe in individual liberty. No human, writer or otherwise, speaks for me, including Rand.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
I heard it was critically panned
I enjoyed the book but never look forward to the movie versions. Outside of LOTR the books are always better.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 15, 2011 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm hearing it's pretty good
but it does seem hard to translate to film.
Fountainhead with Gary Cooper was ok, but again, Rand is a bit complicated for screen.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Great argument
Enslave a race for 400 years and then when it’s over do nothing to try to undo what you did.
That is pretty much the opposite of the way I live my life.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
So are you for reparations?
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Here's a better reply
The way I live my life is an individual choice. It’s different when you try to get a government to do so.
I’m from a family of immigrants. I’ve never enslaved anyone. What the hell are you talking about?
Would it be better to return the descendants of slaves to Africa? We tried that in Liberia. African Americans blacks tend to fair better than Liberians these days.
So, I am for “doing something”, but it has nothing to do with patronizing people.
Your argument suggests that blacks cannot make it in America without help. I think highly of blacks, having grown up in the company of many. You seem to look down on them from your Ivory Tower.
Shame on you.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
they could if they were afforded the same opportunities...
which they are not.
needs no explanation
if we are that far apart then a discussion on a comment board isn’t going to change your mind.
Yes
this is an unlikely place for this discussion to break out. Clipper season must be over.
Peace.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
it was fun while it lasted though!
conversation is good, always
Wrong.
The last time that I participated was on the injury effect thread.
I’m gonna go ahead and comment whenever the hell I feel like it and you can feel free to skip right over my comments. I won’t waste any more time responding to yours.
by oneight on Apr 14, 2011 4:57 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Divergent opinions?
Or a completely insensitive remark, belittling a horribly offensive word and mocking the constant prejudice that the GLBT community has to deal with?
That sort of thing isn’t supported heavily on this blog, regardless of your prior posting activity. I don’t care if you invented the name Clippers, if you bring that sort of attitude in here, you’re wasting bandwidth.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
The constant prejudice that you speak of is so far from the mainstream
that it barely warrants noting. In this day and age bigots can survive but not thrive because a majority of Americans reject bigotry outright. Pandering is unnecessary. My remark was not even slightly insensitive. How is stating that the amount of the fine was excessive insensitive?
My opinions don’t need your support. I use facts for that.
by oneight on Apr 14, 2011 5:36 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
It's not the part about the fine
It’s the nonchalant way in which you dismissed Kobe’s remarks as not being such a big fuss.
As for the mainstream nature of anti-gay sentiments, you’ve got to look outside California or New York City and travel a bit further south.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
Not to defend Kobe but
I highly doubt he meant it as a homophobic slur. He just used an inappropriate term in the heat of the moment. Of course I sometimes use derogatory terms jn such situations but I would not use that one. Which is why he’s getting fined. I have no issue with the amount of the fine considering who he is, the amount of money he makes and the fact that he should know everyone is watching.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on Apr 15, 2011 6:34 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
This is true
I agree he probably didn’t mean anything against the gay community.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
Disagree there
from what I saw he went to the bench, had time to hit a chair then addressed the referee by name to get his attention and then he thought of the meanest or most vile thing he could think of and it was a gay slur? If you could think of situation where the term is even used in a positive way then please enlighten me.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on Apr 15, 2011 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions
But that wouldn't really mean anything if the ref wasn't gay
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
your reasoning makes no sense whatsoever...
so if i call a white person the “n” word then it’s ok because it can’t be meant as a racist slur if they really aren’t black?
Fire Jasen Powell!
but i understand your point.
Fire Jasen Powell!
Players berate refs on every other call and don't get fined
but say the F-word (and we’re not even talking about the FU word), and all hell breaks loose.
It’s hard for me to believe that the F-word is now akin to the N-word. What a disgrace. Being gay is not the same as being black. Blacks can’t help being black.
Can of worms opened.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Yeah but do you seriously use that word to berate someone?
To me, the F word and N word are off limits. I’ve never used them. Even though I have no problem using derogatory terms generally. Regardless of whether the N-word is worse.
Of course your remark that there’s a distinction because blacks don’t choose to be black is a controversial one. But you know that.
Either way, why do you think that there’s nothing wrong with using that word? To me, it would be equally bad to use an anti-Christian slur.
Kobe seems to agree that his use of that particular term was wrong. He’s out there trying to use the issue to foster discussion.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
First of all, Kobe is just a jerk, period
It was an inappropriate insult anyway. I don’t believe the ref is gay.
I’ve jokingly called people fag or fruitcake, or something. Queer, homo, etc. It’s definitely a pejorative to a straight male (especially a homophobic one). I’ve never called a gay person a faggot, not would I. Is that even an insult to call a gay person that. If gay is ok, why is it an insult to call someone gay? It’s so complicated.
The difference between black and gay is obvious. Gay is only manifested in behavior. Skin color is exterior. I have less of a problem with people being discriminated against because of their behavior than because of their skin color, which is the epitome of closed-mindedness.
What are some anti-Christian slurs? I can’t think of any. Bible thumper? To some, that would be a compliment.
Kobe’s fine should have been for his behavior towards the ref rather than the use of the F-word.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
if you think of it from a different perspective
Blacks can be a N-word the same way a white person can be a redneck so I think blacks do have a choice to be a N-word or not. just my opinion so please don’t get all Al Sharpton on me.
As I understand it
most gay people aren’t gay because they chose to be gay
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
yes, this is a downright fallacy and intellectually dishonest
why would you CHOOSE to be gay? it’s like choosing to be black in the 40s or 50s, or Japanese-American during WW2. i can be a second-class citizen not afforded the rights bestowed upon other Americans?! gee, sign me up!
lots of ignorance of what goes on in the real world peppering this thread. the playing field is level? nearly every metric says this is not so: wage disparity between men and women, school dropout rates in minority communities, the % of young black males in prison.
these are systemic problems, and they penetrates to all levels of our society. google “pennsylvania judges scandal” and tell me the playing field is level. it’s easy for people who have never felt the sting of discrimination or abuse to say that there is no problem when the reality is quite the opposite. ask anyone from a minority social group if they’ve been discriminated against and i guarantee you they’ll say yes. it’s not playing the victim, it’s the simple truth.
I find it appalling that you equate being homosexual today
to being black or Japanese in the 40’s or 50’s. Let me know when gay lynchings begin. Let me know when gays are put in internment camps in the Utah desert. Let me know when gays have to use separate restrooms or sit in the back of the bus.
Gays are hardly 2nd class citizens today. In fact, in many industries it’s a resume enhancer, rather than a detriment.
I’m not saying the playing field is level. There are still plenty of bigots. What I’m saying is that it can’t be remedied in a satisfying way. If anything, they remedies are deepening the divisions. They are also keeping minorities in a state of servitude. I believe this is done intentionally in order to secure blacks as a constituency. If the politicians really wanted to help minorities they wouldn’t keep them trapped on welfare rolls and in failing schools.
Racism is everywhere. It’s a fact of life. It can’t be legislated out of the fabric of society.
Also, there is no longer a wage disparity between men and women. You should update your playbook.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
uh...
from the article: “Here’s the slightly deflating caveat: this reverse gender gap, as it’s known, applies only to unmarried, childless women under 30 who live in cities. The rest of working women — even those of the same age, but who are married or don’t live in a major metropolitan area — are still on the less scenic side of the wage divide.”
gays aren’t second class citizens? can they get married? could they serve openly in the armed forces until very recently? discrimination is discrimination. the 2000s do it differently that the 1940s, but in principle it’s the same thing.
things are getting better, but not fast enough if your are a member of a discriminated against group. but to in essence ignore the problem because it cannot be “solved in a satisfying way” is also assuming that the protections granted these groups have not played a part in the increased tolerance of our society, and is sending a message that these are not issues that need to be dealt with.
as for your assertion that minorities are being kept in a state of servitude by the social safety net, i disagree. our schools are certainly failing to educate at an acceptable level, but i certainly won’t blame the teacher’s unions for advocating for their members and trying to get them (through collective bargaining) the job security and pay that they should be getting in the first place. the anti-union shtick is amazing these days, as if unions hadn’t accomplished anything for workers in the history of this country.
Unmarried, childless women are more available and mobile than those married with children
That’s why they earn more. Don’t see why that is so controversial to you. Are unmarried, childless women not still women?
Private unions still serve a purpose, albeit less of one due to their corrupt leadership. Public Unions, on the other hand, don’t do anything for workers except rip us (taxpayers) off. We pay their salaries, and they demand more, more, more. The teachers unions block any attempts at reforms that aim to fix the education system.
Gays can get married all they want – just not to other gays. But they can receive most of the benefits of marriage in many states. I’m all for gay marriage if they can pass it thru the proper legislative channels. So far they have been unable to do so. That’s how our democracy works.
Gays have always been able to serve in the military. The expectation was that they didn’t go running around talking about their sexual preferences. Why must they be able to serve “openly”? This suggests to me that serving in the military was never the point. It’s about promoting an agenda.
I have a number of gay friends (I live in Long Beach). I treat them like anybody else. I don’t talk about who I like to sleep with and neither do they. Also, NOT ONE of my gay friends gives a damn about gay marriage.
Again, the comparison of gays to blacks is extremely offensive. There really is no comparison.
If your solution to fight discrimination is by using discrimination, well, that doesn’t really make sense. Perhaps past reforms and protections have increased tolerance in the past, but their shelf-life has expired. All we are doing is deepening divisions that would likely otherwise evolve out of fashion.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
i'm sorry i got into this argument
you’re offended that i’m comparing discrimination of blacks to discrimination of gays? i’m offended by just about everything you’ve just written, including the assertion that gay people don’t care about gay marriage, or your brushing off the hypocrisy of not allowing the openly gay in the military (and all that entails, including servicemen settling personal scores by outing someone). your comment about “promoting an agenda” is just… not supportable in any way. i can’t argue with that brand of thinking.
Yes, there is a very vocal Gay lobby that has an agenda
I don’t mean to suggest that there aren’t gays who wish to marry each other. I’m sure many do.
Also, as I stated above, I SUPPORT GAY MARRIAGE. But I’m not a dictator, so I can make it law.
Like I said, just let me know when gays are routinely lynched, enslaved, or stuck into desert internment camps. Until then, I don’t think there is a comparison.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
vocal lobbies?
aren’t lobbies supposed to be vocal and have an agenda? or is there an exemption for gays and lobbies you don’t like?
discrimination is discrimination. marriage is a basic HUMAN right. tell a bullied LGBT teen and their high suicide rates that their discrimination isn’t a big deal. tell Matthew Shepard.
Gays can marry
they just can’t marry same sex – yet.
By the way, in addition to gay marriage, I’m also for polygamy, as long as everyone is over 18.
Same with brother and sister, to be honest. I don’t think it should be anyone’s business who marries whom.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
i know you're being facetious (well, i think you are)
but i agree. not my business who marries who, it doesn’t affect my life in the slightest bit. who am i to tell someone what to do with their life?
Mikey's apparently from Tennessee
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Texas, actually
But you’re from Utah, right? So it’s a win/win for both of us.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
So you have given up on the argument that they "chose" to be gay
I believe that the Medical community has already confirmed that this is not the case.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
I have neither made nor given up that argument
I said it’s debatable. Blacks are black. That’s a fact.
Also, the medical “community” has conclusively confirmed no such thing.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Actually, the AMA did say that as I recall
And you didn’t say it’s debatable. You said “Being gay is not the same as being black. Blacks can’t help being black.”
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
"Being gay is not the same as being black. Blacks can’t help being black."
Yup, I stand by that comment. Blacks definitely can’t help being black. Gays may or may not be able to. It’s unprovable.
By the way, I know someone who was gay in the past that is now straight. Not sure what that means but there it is.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Sorry, the APA
But you are saying different things now than you said before.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
It's a hotly debated topic
I don’t know if gayness is biological or not. What I am saying is that gayness only manifests behaviorally. If a gay person didn’t admit they were gay, nobody would know they were gay.
Blacks can’t hide being black.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
You don't know it
but you identified it as one of your major arguments above. As you know, it’s a dangerous argument because it has been used by conservatives to justify discrimination against gays for years if not centuries.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Do you support legalized polygamy?
If not, why?
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Look
You and I do not agree on the basics, mikey. You think that it is liberals who are keeping the black man down with the government run programs that are intended to fix the past discrimination. You think that this is subterfuge and that they are using the black man for their own ends.
That is in my view an extreme right wing viewpoint that I just can’t agree with.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
If these 50 year old programs were intended to fix past discrimination
why haven’t they worked, nay, why have things gotten WORSE?
There is no intention to help the downtrodden. These politicians and grievance mongers are trying (successfully) to consolidate a voter base, lest they put themselves out of a job.
My position is that minorities should be treated like everyone else. Your position is that they need assistance in order to succeed.
Mine is the less racist position.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
400 years of slavery isn't an easy problem to fix
Since you’re not black, you really have no idea. Not that I am, but I think that I understand the issues a bit better than you apparently do.
Your position is – basically put them into a coma and then start treating them the same as you – who are not in a coma. Gee, I wonder whether that’s actually treating them equal.
You need a level playing field. There is not one here. T
here’s no need to continue with this discussion because it is apparent that you are so wedded to the conservative right wing talking points that you don’t have an open mind.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
That was a very closed minded argument, Jax
Especially since you don’t know me or where I grew up. It’s easy to just boil down uncomfortable arguments to “right wing” talking points.
I didn’t get the coma analogy, either, but that’s ok. I’m ok with disagreement. But I will reiterate that level playing fields don’t exist and are impossible to manufacture.
Too many issues for a basketball blog. But you were definitely the more closed minded participant for your brush-off.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Nah - just busy
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
"Busy" busy, or Jax busy?
just kidding. Have a nice day.
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
You too - on a conference call
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
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