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Clippers Injuries - Recent History

Injuries happen, and they're not an excuse. Lots of teams seem to be able to overcome them and avoid a disastrous season, even when they occur to key players and even when they occur in volume. The Trailblazers made the playoffs this season with Brandon Roy playing as a shell of his former self, without Greg Oden (again) and with most of their other bigs spending significant time in street clothes. The Mavericks lost Caron Butler on New Year's Day but still won 57 games. The Grizzlies lost Rudy Gay in mid February but made the playoffs for the first time in five seasons despite his absence.

Having said that, it's not reasonable to imply that injuries don't have any impact. If it didn't matter what players were available to play, then it wouldn't matter what players you sign or draft. Players are not interchangeable parts. If your best players are not available due to injury, the team is necessarily going to be diminished. It's a credit to the Portlands and the Memphises of the league that they have won some games and made the playoffs - but they won't win a championship. They probably won't get out of the first round of the playoffs.

Star-divide

I started thinking the other day about the string of injuries the Clippers have suffered recently. I'm not talking about Danny Manning and Norm Nixon and Derek Smith here - I'm just talking about the last five seasons. And over those five seasons, it's pretty remarkable how infrequently the Clippers have been at something resembling full strength.

Since Shaun Livingston's knee imploded on February 26th, 2007, the Clippers have played 353 regular season games over the course of five NBA seasons. In those 353 games, by my count, they have been at full strength 29 times, or a little more than 8% of the time.

Now, let's define some terms here. First of all, I didn't go digging through box scores pre-dating Livingston's injury. I started there because it was easy. Sam Cassell missed a bunch of games that season, but I didn't go back looking at the team's relative health prior to February 2007.

Secondly, I'm not dealing with bench guys and role players. I'm not counting games missed by Zeljko Rebraca in 06-07 (he was out for the season) or Craig Smith or Randy Foye this year. I would like to say I'm counting only starters, but that's not entirely accurate either, mainly because the Clippers have had a bit of an overload at some positions the past few seasons. So let's say 'starter quality' players. So for instance, even though Chris Kaman, Zach Randolph and Marcus Camby never started together and never could really, they are all starter quality, and so their availability or lack thereof is included in the definition of 'full strength' used here.

Season by season, here's the breakdown:

February 26 2007  to the end of the season - Livingston was obviously lost for all of those games. Although Livingston was not necessarily the starter with Cassell still around, he was a key part of that team (fourth in minutes per game at the time of his injury). His absence was of course compounded by Cassell's own ongoing injury issues as he struggled through his 17th season in the league. Jason Hart was the starter for the stretch run as the Clippers fought for the last playoff spot. 'Nuff said.

2007-2008 season - Elton Brand ruptured his Achilles tendon in the off-season. He missed 74 of 82 games, returning to action in April 2nd. By the time he returned, Kaman was out for the rest of the season himself.

2008-2009 Season - Technically speaking, the Clippers started the 08-09 season pretty healthy. New acquisition Marcus Camby missed the first three games of the season, but then they played eight straight with their starting lineup of Baron Davis, Cat Mobley, Al Thornton, Camby and Kaman all available. Tim Thomas got hurt in there, but I won't put him in the 'starter quality' category. Unfortunately, that was the longest contiguous streak of health enjoyed by the team in the last five seasons, and it lasted less than two weeks. At that point, the Clippers made a trade, Mobley and Thomas for Zach Randolph. The next three games they were below full strength not due to injury, but due to the fact that completion of the trade was delayed because of Mobley's physical in New York with the Knicks (his heart condition). When the Knicks finally signed off on the deal, Randolph made his Clippers debut on November 26th - in a game in which Kaman played 12 minutes before leaving with a strained arch, an injury that eventually cost him the next 48 games. Call the game on 111/26 one at full strength since Kaman and Randolph both played, but obviously Kaman didn't even finish that one. After Kaman's return, the top six Clippers appeared in six more games together before a handful of other injuries knocked one or another of them out of the lineup. All told, I have them at full strength for 16 games in 08-09 - half of them before the Randolph trade, and most of the rest long after the season was completely meaningless.

2009-2010 season - It's pretty easy to calculate the number of games the Clippers played at less than full strength in 09-10. Blake Griffin was injured just prior to the beginning of the regular season and missed all of it. So that's zero out of 82 games at full strength.

2010-2011 season - Compared to so many other seasons of recent memory, this season seemed like a relatively healthy one. But that's mainly due to the level of expectations that has been set in recent years. Blake Griffin started all 82 games in his delayed rookie season, but the three other most important Clippers, the All Stars Kaman and Davis as well as the Team USA cold medalist Eric Gordon, all missed significant time. By my count, they had everyone available for:

  • the first three games (at which time Davis was far from 100%, but was at least in uniform);
  • two games in early December, at which point both Baron and Kaman were coming off the bench as they tried to return from injury. (These were the two games when Kaman tried to play through his injury, but he would shut it down for another 34 games after this pair, so again you can argue that they weren't at full strength, but they did have access to these players for these two games.)
  • two games in early March, when Eric Gordon returned to the lineup only to get re-injured in his second game back;
  • six games in later March.

That's a total of 13 games at full strength this season, with most of the time being lost by last season's leading scorer Kaman, and this season's leading scorer for most of the season, Gordon.

Perhaps more frustrating to Clipper fans than the sheer number of games played with one or more starters out (and there were long stretches when it was two or three guys sitting all at once), is the things we never got to see. Chris Kaman had his breakout while Brand was recovering from his injury - we never saw Kaman 2.0 and Brand play together, because of Kaman's late season injury and Brand's offseason defection. Likewise, we never saw Camby and Blake Griffin play together. And although they technically were together for three games this season, we never actually saw a full strength Baron Davis with all of his weapons around him, and we never will.

Is 100% health a realistic expectation? No, it's not. But there's a lot of room between 100% and 8%. It would be great to see how the Clippers can do with a reasonably healthy roster at some point. Maybe next year.

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who cares about full strength

give me kaman gordon griffin and mo playing at least 65-70 games each and im a happy camper

by Dawool Huh on Apr 17, 2011 9:26 PM PDT reply actions  

Mo is normally fairly injury free

Misses less than 10 games a year on average.

Blake aside from that one injury doesnt seem very prone.

Kaman and EJ are both worrisome injury wise.

by NewCavsfan on Apr 17, 2011 9:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Kaman worries me more than EJ

EJ has just been unlucky with his wrist, big men tend to be injury prone and Kaman has shown that he falls in that cliche. Although interestingly DJ has avoided injury so far (knocks on wood).

"It's better to be an optimist who is sometimes wrong than a pessimist who is always right"unknown

by bestclipfan on Apr 17, 2011 10:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

EJ’s lone college season was hindered by a wrist injury, and he’s missed significant time due to injuries two out of his three pro seasons. I wouldn’t say that he is especially injury prone in the sense that he’s fragile, but his style of play does appear to leave him at greater risk for injury, especially wrist injuries. The odds are pretty good that he’ll miss time next season at some point.

by ClipCat on Apr 18, 2011 7:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

EJ definitely needs to learn to fall better

Blake’s really good at making sure he lands on his butt or upper back, keeping his head up, and not using his arms to brace himself on the way down. Sometimes he uses his elbows when he falls, but then he just puts on that sleeve.

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 18, 2011 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

There are classes that teach you how to fall

EJ should invest in one of those classes, might make some good T.V. as well.

"It's better to be an optimist who is sometimes wrong than a pessimist who is always right"unknown

by bestclipfan on Apr 18, 2011 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

I bet JJ Barea could start a class...

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 18, 2011 5:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

With Fisher and Miller as guest instructors

"Every existing thing is born without reason, prolongs itself out of weakness, and dies by chance" -Jean-Paul Sarte

by Jayq on Apr 18, 2011 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

If he wanted that class

all he would have to do is watch video of the world cup.

"It's better to be an optimist who is sometimes wrong than a pessimist who is always right"unknown

by bestclipfan on Apr 18, 2011 6:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Time for Jasen Powell to go...

It’s time for him, his staff, and his bad juju to get hell out of town!

by Shawn H on Apr 17, 2011 10:09 PM PDT reply actions  

two names were constant here, Kaman and Powell

with those 353 games Steve counted for, Kaman and Powell are the two names stayed with the Clippers through out.

Kaman’s injured in every season, and he is ready to play for the Germany team this summer. Go figure.

by Pats fan in CA on Apr 18, 2011 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Actually EJ's injuries are a Catch 22 and concern me a lot

EJ’s game was most effective earlier when he drove “hard” to the basket and would usually score or get fouled. Unfortunately, all three injuries (2 wrist and a shoulder) suffered were very hard (almost flagrant) fouls while he was high in the air driving to the hoop. EJ is now shooting more floaters and not jumping as high (dunking) or aggressively when going to the basket. Hence, less foul shots, less effective shooting and scoring plus more blocked shots.

I gotta have more cowbell!

by PV Mike on Apr 17, 2011 11:14 PM PDT reply actions  

The wrist is still injured...

Of course I don’t know for sure, but I think part of his less aggressive play late in the season was caused by the pain in his wrist. He says it still hurts, so he is obviously not gonna dunk on it.

I think he reloads next season and gets back to what made him great early this season.

by indy818 on Apr 18, 2011 10:57 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

I know we all say it

but at what point does the organization look at Jasen Powell and create the correlation between him and the long injuries?

by yaggiefresh on Apr 18, 2011 12:36 AM PDT reply actions  

I know it is common for clippernation to point toward Powell

but how much can you put on his plate? Most players probably will have their own doctors for a second opinion and in the end how much can a medical staff really influence how long a player is out?

by BelgianClipper on Apr 18, 2011 6:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

Powell

Jasen Powell is not a doctor.

You can’t blame him for the injuries, but certainally you can blame him for the time it takes for players to recouperate. Remember early this season with EJs sholder/arm injury, Powell put a dressing on it that looked like a third grader would have done. The only reason Powell has been around this long must have some correlation with DTS’s wallet.

by sttrumpet on Apr 18, 2011 8:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

Of course you can blame trainers for injuries

Injuries are as much about prevention as anything else. Look at the Suns training staff and what they’ve done for guys like Grant Hill, etc. Their philosophy is about training not only for health and performance, but injury prevention. Sure, freak injuries happen all the time but the trail of injuries that Steve points out points to something structurally wrong with the organization.

by ganima on Apr 18, 2011 8:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

This thinking is scapegoating

strength and conditioning trainers are responsible for preventing injuries, this is not Powell’s job description

Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas

by bacek on Apr 18, 2011 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

so we can blame the strength and conditioning trainers?

haha, but seriously, I think when people are blaming powell, it’s because he’s the only guy on the athletic training staff (and maybe Johan Wang) anyone really knows, and when we say we need to replace Jasen, we really mean, replace him and everyone on the training staff (including Williams).

by osamu on Apr 18, 2011 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

I doubt Powell is to blame

The organization has said repeatedly that Powell is respected as a trainer. Now, of course they are going to publicly say that about their staff. But the point it they know the accusation that he is the problem is out there and have evaluated it. If he was truly a factor in the injuries (and therefore the value of organizational assets), Roesser and DTS would have made a move long ago to better protect those assets.

Regarding DTS not opening his wallet regarding this issue, remember he authorized Brand to play the last 8 games of that season, thereby forgoing significant insurance recoveries.

by Thretch on Apr 18, 2011 8:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

Curious that he was the trainer for the ASG.

Was it because he was in LA? Why not the Lakers’ trainer? Perhaps it was his vast collection of sweaters? We’ll never know.

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 18, 2011 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

Besides possible suspect medical staff

Playing with nothing to gain, as in most Clippers seasons, might make players hesitant to play through injuries.

by Piatkowski on Apr 18, 2011 1:54 AM PDT reply actions  

Out of curiosity...

What was their record in the 29 “full strength” games?

by Incognito310 on Apr 18, 2011 3:26 AM PDT via mobile reply actions  

Injuries Happen

that’s why we need more depth to absorb injuries when they happen.

AFA and EB are great prospects, but when guys went down we were counting on these young guys way too much to be competetive, I’m hoping we sign a decent bench player or 2.

I’d love to see a high scoring wing player added in the off season, someone like Jamal Crawford or Nick Young, who are both FA. Add one of these guys and sign a 3, someone like Battier or Prince and I’m a happy camper.

by The Blake Griffin Era on Apr 18, 2011 7:33 AM PDT reply actions  

Too bad Nick Young can't play any D and he is injury prone

"Every existing thing is born without reason, prolongs itself out of weakness, and dies by chance" -Jean-Paul Sarte

by Jayq on Apr 18, 2011 5:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

We already have a Randy Foye

smh

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 18, 2011 7:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Playoffs

Mo/EB/Foye
EJ/(Crawford/ Nick Young)
(Battier/Prince)/AFA
Blake/(Rhino/Ike)
DJ/Kaman

and Harrison Barnes via the Minnesota Pick next yr, If only my dreams come true

by The Blake Griffin Era on Apr 18, 2011 7:35 AM PDT reply actions  

Playoffs

are further away than just adding Prince/Battier and a Crawford/Young.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 18, 2011 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

Actually they would be months away...

Question is would we be preparing to dance in the big stage

"Every existing thing is born without reason, prolongs itself out of weakness, and dies by chance" -Jean-Paul Sarte

by Jayq on Apr 18, 2011 5:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

maybe we should just rename ourself...

the Los Angeles Injuries…

I Am Witness to the 1st BLAKE GRIFFIN Triple-Double! And the 2nd Triple-Double!

by KidJustin on Apr 18, 2011 8:11 AM PDT reply actions  

'Starter quality' players

How wonderfully imprecise!

Is Derek Fisher a starter quality player? He started every game this season on a team that is favored to win the West, but I wouldn’t want him starting for my team if he would play for free.

by John R on Apr 18, 2011 9:11 AM PDT reply actions  

well the guy must do something right

I can hardly imagine Bryant and Jackson tolerating an also-ran on their team, let alone in their starting five. That being said: I wouldn’t want him on the clips =)

by BelgianClipper on Apr 18, 2011 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

Derick Fisher blows

Only reason he is still a Laker is because he has stepped up in the past when they needed him the most. Thing is, with his play he places his team in situations when they are down/tie, when in reality they should be up.

"Every existing thing is born without reason, prolongs itself out of weakness, and dies by chance" -Jean-Paul Sarte

by Jayq on Apr 18, 2011 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

But he's such a class act and has played all those games in a row...

STARTER.

But seriously… in this case, for a Clipper fan, “starter quality” isn’t so imprecise. We know Craig Smith or Tim Thomas or Jason Hart should never have been starting at any point in their careers with us. And we know that despite coming off the bench, Maggette was most definitely starter quality for most teams. Al Thornton may be debatable…

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 18, 2011 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

It may not be imprecise in the sense of who is the best Clipper available for that position

But it is important for the Al Thornton angle.

Especially in the case of a certain massively overrated SG or a tragically inconsistent C.

by John R on Apr 18, 2011 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

John R still can't get over a certain SG murdering his cat.

I can’t believe he keeps spewing his nonsense here. Wasn’t he the one who championed a certain player as being only the 20th or something best SG in the league prior to the start of the season?

Stuck in limbo.

by PaperClip on Apr 18, 2011 10:38 AM PDT reply actions  

He didn't murder my cat

He just isn’t very good. And pretty soon the Clippers are going to make the mistake of massively overpaying a player who isn’t very good. And then everyone will wonder why the Clippers still aren’t very good. And they will blame the coach or injuries or some other misguided thing instead of the correct thing. Our Scottie Pippen is no Scottie Pippen.

by John R on Apr 18, 2011 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

There’s no value in a high-volume, yet highly-efficient scorer who can play very solid perimeter defense, in a league where these attributes come at a premium? Also, there’s the fact that (aside from Blake) this team has only low-volume/high-efficiency scorers or high-volume/low-efficiency scorers, so EJ is particularly useful for the Clippers.

I get trying to build a perfect team, and knowing that if you settle for anything less than perfect, you’re not going to win a championship (the ultimate goal), but this team has got to crawl before it can walk, and then walk before it can run. Step 1, for me, is making this an attractive free agency destination. Isn’t the attraction of Miami and Bosh and Wade the reason why all of the other teams failed in the LeBron sweepstakes? For now, I’m content with being content. Joviality will have to come later.

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 18, 2011 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

in a league where these attributes come at a premium

This is our concern, Dude.

You are paying a premium for a package the league values that might not actually be the box containing the things that lead to wins.

Gordon is un-sneaky and not that productive. And he frequently dribbles off his shin. Why is this always ignored in these glowing evaluations?

by John R on Apr 18, 2011 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

This is true

Perhaps because these things come at a premium without making a huge difference in the final outcome could be why a sign-and-trade may be the smarter option with EJ. Use his high value throughout the league to get a package of guys from Denver or something. Kaman, EJ for Nene, Afflalo, Chandler? I wonder if they’d bite on that…

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 18, 2011 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

gordon improved so much this year

we’ve had a mild meltdown at PG, so his TOs are because he’s had to play combo guard. When gordon went out this team looked very sad, we need to pay this man. Eric bledsoe on the other hand has got his work cut out for him becoming a ball handler. I’m disappointed that we have no backup plan at PG and are gonna try to ride out mo and gordon and are creating more problems instead of handling the necessary issues. Eric gordon isn’t a point guard, we need to acquire a rondo and make him our ray allen.

wine um, dine um, 69 um

by flightofthegriffin on Apr 18, 2011 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Its better for the Clippers if they acquire a player better than Gordon

No argument there. They haven’t shown any interest, however, as you note.

by John R on Apr 18, 2011 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

Name an available SG better than EJ?

"Every existing thing is born without reason, prolongs itself out of weakness, and dies by chance" -Jean-Paul Sarte

by Jayq on Apr 18, 2011 5:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

The silence is deafening

EJ is not the biggest concern here.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 18, 2011 10:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not at all

We all know the area to address is SF and then PG/backup PG/whatever

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 19, 2011 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah the FO bashing by this one guy for possibly resigning EJ

is for lack of a better word lame. We’ll see what the FO does this summer.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 19, 2011 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

Actually you didn't think SF was a problem all year

changing your tune now? You thought PG was the problem. Make up your mind already.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 19, 2011 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

Not sure this is about me

But I did think Gomes would perform to historical numbers. Not sure I thought that “all year” as you suggest. I think that they did a pretty good job of taking care of the PG issue, but the dynamics have changed. Since they didn’t get an elite type PG they will need a better SF now.

Hopefully they will get something done this summer.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 19, 2011 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

They didn't solve the PG issue

they at best moved lateral on the issue at the expense of a lottery pick.

I also hope they do something this off-season though they have set the bar exceedingly low after last year’s failure that almost any transaction will have to be viewed as an improvement.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 19, 2011 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not sure I agree with that. Last year, most of us would give the Clippers a low grade for their handling of free agency and their ability to fill the SF hole. This year should be viewed on its own merits and not on some sliding Clipper scale. A slight upgrade to Gomes would not be my idea of a successful off season.

by ClipCat on Apr 19, 2011 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agreed

last year we were dealing with the DTS and MDSr black hole this team had become in terms of how it was viewed by others around the league. I think things have changed now. You are just consistently negative.

In any event, we’ll see what happens.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 19, 2011 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

You meaning "CC"

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 19, 2011 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Which CC?

I’m trying to keep an open mind. Not trying to be positive or negative.

by ClipCat on Apr 19, 2011 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

The other one!! LOL

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 19, 2011 4:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not being negative

I’m being right. You want to compare notes on who has been right since last off-season? You really want to go down that road?

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 19, 2011 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Any time sunshine

Everything’s a competition, huh.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 19, 2011 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh I agree

I gave the FO a D- for botching the head coach hiring, the Lebron DVD and the useless free agent signings. The fact that they didn’t sign any 5 year deals is the only good thing you can say in that the damage they caused was at least limited to 2-3 years.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 19, 2011 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

I have to hope too that Randy Foye’s high volume scoring will give him value (however unwarranted it is). I hope the FO is smart enough to realize that teams are looking for a Jamal Crawford, and they may confuse Foye for being one of those.

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 19, 2011 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think this is completely fair

I’ve never been really considered one of the pessimists on this board (or maybe I have, what do I know) but I don’t see how last off-season can be viewed as something other than a massive fail.

But that fail goes farther back than last off-season. All the trades were made with an eye on Lebron and not getting Lebron has nothing to do with the production value of a DVD. DTS could have arranged for Lebron and his entourage to get lap dances from Halle Berry and it wouldn’t have mattered. There was no honest assessment within the F.O about the odds of getting Lebron, and the team has sufferred because of that.

by Michael White on Apr 19, 2011 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

"no honest assessment"

Totally agree… I think we all were under the impression the team had a chance because the team was so seriously peddling the idea that they were contenders in the sweepstakes. In that situation, they needed to try and get some kind of communication from LeBron’s camp, besides that he’s coming to visit, and if they couldn’t, they should have moved on and picked up the spoils from everyone else trying to get LeBron. Hindsight is 20-20, but they were going into the thing with blinders on.

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 19, 2011 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

I partially agree with this

I don’t think the FO made all the moves specifically for Lebron but they clearly didn’t come up with some adequate back up plans. To go from Lebron to signing Ryan Gomes and Randy Foye on the first day is like going to buy a Porsche Dealership to buying a new 911 but leaving the dealership with a 1994 Corolla (no offense to Corollas of course). The second those signings were announced we were all wondering if that was it (and it sadly was). The team never even used up all that cap space (clearly they could have signed some guys to one year deals or absorbed some contracts in exchange for picks). The team could have absorbed contracts of good players last summer by trading for Luol Deng, Andre Iguodala, Danny Granger and so forth. Instead they settled for some career journeymen who simply aren’t good enough to be full-time starters. Total fail.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 19, 2011 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

You believe Iggy and/or Granger

were gettable last off-season? Deng may well have been, but I would argue he was gettable immediately after last season when they were still in the Lebron sweepstakes or at the deadline. I think they would have been all over Camby for Deng.

by Michael White on Apr 19, 2011 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Iggy definitely was

he was being shopped up until New Year’s. Granger was rumored to be available as well, Bird hinted at it.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 19, 2011 5:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

If they didn't have a backup plan

Doesn’t that mean they only made those moves for LeBron? I guess, for LeBron and “flexibility.” And selling more tickets.

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 19, 2011 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

I said adequate back up plans

signing Gomes and Foye immediately after the decision doesn’t strike me as a good back up plan.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 19, 2011 5:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hahaha yes

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 20, 2011 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

What exactly was the "fail"?

They did what they could do given the hand they were dealt. The major problem here is the stigma associated with the team for reasons we all know and love. The rebuilding of this team is a long term project. Clearly injuries and BD’s failure to ready himself for the season contributed mightily to the problems, but the lack of depth was a problem too.

However, they have a much better coaching staff than before and they in my view at least are moving forward in ways they coudn’t have before. This offseason they need to come through though.

I feel like we go round and round on these issues. This summer will determine what happens.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 19, 2011 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

They never tried to rebuild

They tried (and obviously failed) to hit a homerun with Lebron. They gambled on Gomes thinking that he would be a capable starting SF in the NBA. The Foye move (and Cook) is actually more forgiveable since he was brought in as depth and was only given a 2 year deal. Gomes was signed to be a starter.

by Michael White on Apr 19, 2011 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Rebuilding is a long process

First you have to have a real FO. Now they have one, in my opinion at last. The ridiculous clown show of MDSr and Baylor are finally gone.

Foye and Gomes were available to us. They needed a deeper bench, perhaps. I will criticize them for that.

But you can’t build a winning franchise from where we were in one summer. To think you can do that is not reasonable.

What’s lame about many of the regular posters here is that there are a couple of really negative people who post all the time and really no one to counteract their constant negative diatribes. Ultimately, success will do that though and they’ll just go away.

So it really is going to come down to this summer. They have some good assets, there is more positive buzz around the team, and FAs should be more interested in coming to play here.

So let’s see what happens, shall we?

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 19, 2011 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Clippers still have the same FO

all they did was fire MDSr and not pay him. His assistant got promoted, Roeser is still crunching the numbers and DTS is still getting in the way as only he seemingly can.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 19, 2011 5:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

We'll see what happens

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 19, 2011 5:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

we did

its been well over a year now. We’ve seen them draft two 19 year olds and expect them to be the primary backups from day 1. Hire the unqualified and overmatched VDN. Also saw them squander max cap space sign Gomes, Foye and Cook. Resign Butler and Rhino. Cut Butler. Trade a unprotected lottery pick and Baron for Mo Williams and Jamario Moon. Oh and sit on I think 3 million in unused cap space. I wonder how many Executive of the Year votes Olshey is going to get?

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 19, 2011 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Again, we'll see what happens

You criticize everything. I think that they did a fair job given what they were handed by the previous regime.

Your main criticisms have to do with clearly reasonable decisions.

We will see what happens this summer. The team is progressingl, again given what they were handed.

I get the fact that you hate the Clippers. I get the fact that you want to show us all how smart you think you are. It is really sad (and tiring) to continually witness how negative and biased you are.

You went through the year ripping every signing. When they played well you just went to others and ripped them incessangly.

No question they had a thin bench. But they played well when healthy and things are looking up. They are in a better position to sign FOs. We’ll see what happens.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 19, 2011 6:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

You are consistently dim

If I hated the Clippers I wouldn’t bother following them. They are poorly managed and only an idiot would think otherwise.

What they were handed from the previous regime is everything that you credit as progressing. All the good players the Clips have came from the previous regime. All the bad ones were signed/drafted/traded for by the “new” regime.

And its equally sad and pathetic that you try to ignore all the facts, shift the blame to MDSr and make excuses for the failings of the FO. They did a bad job last off-season. Period.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 19, 2011 9:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

We disagree

And if you look through the history of your posts this year (thousands – I would venture by far the most of anyone here) all you do is provide negative comments about the Clippers. You never exhibited any positive energy about anything clipper related but you took great pride in the negative things. Too bad because there’s alot of positives to draw from last year.

Whatever. That’s just the way you are. A negative cynical person We will see what happens.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 20, 2011 6:48 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

Its laughable

to think you know anything about me.

I defended Blake Griffin from the likes of you before he even played a game. I’ve consistently praised the positives (albeit not too many of them) and pointed out the negatives. In a 32 win season full of mistakes by the FO that leads to more negative observation than not, just how it is.

If you can’t tell the difference then that’s your problem.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 20, 2011 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

What would you have done instead?

You say there was no honest assessment within the FO – in truth you have no idea what happened or what they were thinking, and your speculation just feeds the likes of CC. I think you’re smarter than that. Maybe not.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 19, 2011 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think any team had an honest assessment

LeBron’s camp was being completely silent, so it left all these teams to hope for the best. But for teams like the Clippers, where our reputation alone is probably enough to screw it all up, we were probably best served by cutting our losses and trying to pick up the scraps, which were going for pennies.

As I said, though, it’s easy to say this stuff now. At the time, I was on board with the LeBron stuff because I assumed the FO must have had a good reason for thinking we had a chance.

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 19, 2011 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

You forget

That this team was in total disarray following the MDSr departure. BG hadn’t played a game so no one knew how good he was. Historically, good FAs don’t want to play here.

People here who love criticizing the FO (mostly those who are MDSr lovers) point out that we should have overpaid err signed Mike Miller or Josh Childress. That would have killed us.

Now they point out other FAs that we should have signed who turned out to be better than expected in hindsight. Whatever.

The road to respectability is a long one folks. Building a good reputation takes time. That’s just the way it is.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 19, 2011 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Childress and Miller

still would have been good signings. Not sure what your point is. Gomes is terrible, Childress and Miller would have helped the Clippers win more games.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 19, 2011 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Those guys would have been HORRIBLE signings

LOL

Gomes underperformed. They needed more depth. But not Miller or Childress. God no.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 19, 2011 5:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yea true

I hate guys that can rebound and shoot high TS%. Yuck.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 19, 2011 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yah ok

You have 0 credibility if that’s your argument

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 19, 2011 5:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

with whom?

if its people like you who know nothing about basketball but are both arrogant and delusional enough to think otherwise… why then thank you.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 19, 2011 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

Actually you're

Speaking of yourself. No one else continues to lament the failure to sign two horribly expensive underperforming backups who did not want to come here anyway.

But you keep going like the energizer bunny. Just so you dont have to admit the obvious that you were wrong. Kind of like the trade of the draft pick in the ever increasingly poor draft.

Whatever. It’s your life. All I can do is lead you to water.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 20, 2011 6:52 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

"who did not want to come here anyway"

This was my impression too… but water under the bridge.

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 20, 2011 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

Maybe maybe not

for all we know the Clippers never even pursued Childress. And Miller met with Olshey for hours and convinced the Clippers to sign Randy Foye (Damn you Miller!). Instead we signed a guy who could only start for some horrible teams and to add another wrinkle they expected him to start at his secondary position.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 20, 2011 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah not so sure about Childress

That was based on like one rumor that I saw on espn insider or something. I think we always knew Miller wasn’t coming, though, since he’s bff with LeBron. At the time, I remember thinking it was nice of him to suggest players to draft. At the time. :(

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 20, 2011 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Coming from the guy

who thinks the “new” FO has done such a great job I would expect nothing less than your usual misguided analysis.

They were both vastly better players before and after signing their respective deals. “Backups” on good teams (particular backing up Lebron and Wade) are still better than “starters” like Gomes who start because their front office failed to provide any better options (which VDN and Olshey have already admitted to doing).

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 20, 2011 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

from a LAT article
“I’m going to think about it today. We’ve talked a lot lately and will see where he’s at,” Del Negro said. "I know he’s frustrated with some stuff. We probably relied on him too much. It’s been difficult. He’s not used to starting as much as he has and playing the minutes he has. So that’s been a different situation for him. …

“Being a starter in this league, and being a role player, coming off the bench, is two different responsibilities. You’re playing against top-tier guys instead of second-tier guys.”

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 20, 2011 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

Trade expirings for talent

Camby was traded for no reason at all. An enormous expiring contract was a monster assett and a team that wanted to get in on the LBJ sweepstakes would have paid top dollar for it.

And no need to be a dick questioning my intelligence.

by Michael White on Apr 19, 2011 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

I am not questioning your intelliogence

I’m just questioning your apparent willingness to substitute sheer speculation for fact. You’re smarter than that.

I am not sure what to think about the Camby trade. Are you saying in hindsight we shouldn’t have gone after LBJ?

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 19, 2011 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not just in hindsight. At the time I said the team shouldn’t have gone after Lebron. I thought the teams that cleared out space for Lebron would end up being screwed. I was only half right on that. Chicago won, New Jersey (TrOut waves hello) lost badly, and the Clippers are somewhere in between. As CC says, at least LAC didn’t do something horrible like overpay for Outlaw with all that cap space, but they are still a pretty bad basketball team.

by Michael White on Apr 19, 2011 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

True and remember

many like John R I believe criticizing them for not overpaying for Outlaw and Miller and Childress and the like.

We are not a bad basketball team. We are an improving basketball team. IMO of course. Sad to see the depression around here.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 19, 2011 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Miller and Childress were not overpaid

if anything they took discounts to go to their eventual teams. Both guys are huge upgrades over Gomes.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 19, 2011 5:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yah they really performed well this year

So in your mind we can critizize the FO for Gomes underperforming but Childress and Miller are just fine. Even given their huge expense.

Biased much?

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 19, 2011 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sure lets see

9.8 points/7.9 rebounds/2.2 assists
11 points/6.2 rebounds/1.7 assists
9.4 points/4.4 rebounds/2.0 assists

Who was the worst player? I didn’t even bother to include TS% because I didn’t want to make Gomes cry.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 19, 2011 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

LOL

What are the stats exactly?

Assuming they are the year stats for the three players, I searched them and I just couldn’t find where you posted their relative salaries.

Oh wait a minute, that’s not there. But that’s not surprising, is it.

Dude, if you’ve got to cherry pick like that, you should know that you’ve lost.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 19, 2011 6:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thats their stats per 36 minutes

pretty easy.

Miller made 5 million
Chill made 6.5 million
Gomes 4 million

Miller and Childress would have helped the Clippers win more games. Gomes by taking up minutes and space cost the Clippers wins.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 19, 2011 9:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

LOL

Those aren’t even actual stats. And again where are the salaries?

Pathetic argument.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 20, 2011 6:53 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

I listed them above

and 36 minutes are the stats idiot. I would lead you to water but you would probably end up drowning in the river.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 20, 2011 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

Still waiting for

Salaries

And per game stats, not 36 min stats (since J Chill for exmaple played all of 10 mins or something against scrubs)

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 20, 2011 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

I did list it

This year
Childress 6.5 million
Miller 5 million
Gomes 4 million

Next year
Childress 6 million
Miller 5.4 million
Gomes 4 million

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 20, 2011 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Let's get the full contracts out there, shall we?

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 20, 2011 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Why don't you do some work for once

and get that.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 20, 2011 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Salaries

I agree Chuck, the salaries of Miller and Childress (plus the extra two years for each) don’t justify the stats above. They are only marginally better than Gomes for a much larger financial committment. Miami and Phoenix will look back on these contracts with dismay.

by Thretch on Apr 22, 2011 8:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

hate to break it to you

but if per game stats are almost identical to per36 minute stats, then said player probably sucks balls

Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas

by bacek on Apr 20, 2011 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Shhhh

Its pretty funny seeing how clueless Jax is. Don’t ruin the fun!

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 20, 2011 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes Gomes has underperformed

But the other two played much less. Miller is ok but old and got a ridiculous contract. J Chill seriously underperformed and got a huge contract.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 20, 2011 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Both guys performed pretty well

they just aren’t needed to play as many minutes with their new teams. If they were Clippers then they would have played 30+ mpg and have done much much better than Gomes.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 20, 2011 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

If you say so

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 20, 2011 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yah they are great players

Missing ingredients for the Clips at their price. OF course they weren’t coming here anyway, so just keep on keeping on CC.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 19, 2011 5:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

So?

You can trade for them. The FO had a world of option and decided to go with Gomes-Foye as plan A? Were they worried someone else would snatch them up? Seriously if you were a hiring manager and you hired the equivalent of Gomes and Foye in the real world you’d probably get fired too. Olshey’s lucky to still have a job.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 19, 2011 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Because of your hero MDSr and DTS

they were swimming up stream. Let’s see what happens. Have a little patience.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 19, 2011 6:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

You said:

“There was no honest assessment within the F.O about the odds of getting Lebron, and the team has sufferred because of that.”

You have no idea what their assessment was.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 19, 2011 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

And I have to ask

Why did the team suffer? If you assume that there were no reasonable alternatives available for the Clippers, why not go for LBJ? Who else would they have been able to sign this past summer that would have helped this team long term that they could not sign because they went after LBJ?

Please don’t tell me career vets b/c they could have signed those types anyway, and I agree the team needs more depth.

The answer again is that rebuilding is a long term process.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 19, 2011 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Asked and answered already

They could have traded expiring contracts for talent.

This team couldn’t sign good players, but they could trade for them.

by Michael White on Apr 19, 2011 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

What talent are you talking about?

Who?

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 19, 2011 5:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

The Man From Sudan

He was very expensive and was coming off an injury. Debatable to us back then. Yeah he’s played well this year, but I for one would have wanted to see BG play before signing someone like Luol. Remember, we had no idea how good BG would be and EJ hadn’t yet stepped up in the NBA.

If that’s the best you got seems weak to me.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 19, 2011 5:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Okay

Fine. I’ll stipulate that I do not know what their internal conversations were. But really, you should have to put that disclaimer on every conversation we have here.

My assessment was always that the club had no shot in hell at Lebron. They took the gamble instead of the sure thing. I completely disagreed with that game plan.

by Michael White on Apr 19, 2011 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think we all agreed that we

had an outside shot at best. But given where the Clippers were, they didn’t have the ability to get quality FAs, their best player had never played an NBA game, and they were just coming out of a long deep slumber/depression caused by the DTS/Baylor/MDSr triumvirate.

Jeez, this place is like a morgue. Have some faith. If they don’t do anything this summer, then we can all become Kings fans.

But really, if EJ hadn’t gotten hurt in Feb, even despite the 5-21 start the team was coming together. Yeah they had a lack of depth, but realistically I doubt they thought the team would be that good by Jan back in the summer.

Relax folks.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 19, 2011 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

GAH hulk smash @ the camby trading

That one really pissed me off. Using that and cleaning up the scraps from the LeBron mess could have been something special. Imagine if Miami could have had Camby instead of Mike Miller or whoever they used their extra cap on? That team wins the ‘ship, I’d bet.

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 20, 2011 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

I disagree

They not only rid themselves of a draft pick in a down year (now that Harrison Barnes is going back that’s even clear) but they cleared cap space and got a good player back. And they rid themselves of a bloated contract for a 32 year old declining player who was not going anywhere with the team.

You might not agree but the move was reasonable. Seems like you hate the Clippers because there’s certaoinly room to argue both sides here and you’re just blind to it.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 19, 2011 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nope

just hate your reasoning (or lack of it). Baron’s a better player than Mo Williams so there was improvement in talent. So they dumped a lottery pick they could have used to trade for a SF. Now the Clips either have to sign/overpay a FA SF (in a weak market for SFs) or trade a future draft pick for a SF. They should have just figured out a way to dump Gomes salary with the pick creating the same amount of cap space AND keeping the better PG.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 19, 2011 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ah right, well trading that pick would have been the real solution

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 19, 2011 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Keep denigrating others

Just makes you look silly.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 19, 2011 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well

They essentially traded a bit of cap space (like $3M? I forget) for a lottery pick, and as you said, moved laterally talent-wise (I think a bit downward). But if this turns out to be a ridiculously weak draft, and we get a relatively high pick, then that pick might eat up $3M more of our cap space. So suddenly, we go from a team with like $5M in available cap with a $3M pick, leaving only $2M left open, to a team with $8M cap and no pick.

I’m being super optimistic here.

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 19, 2011 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Clips have a 8.4% chance of getting a top 3 pick

I believe the Clips only have 45.4 million committed next year. Even with the cap holds the team would still have approximately 7 million left to sign a SF. Given the SF FAs the cap benefit of the trade is that you can now overpay someone.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 19, 2011 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah now that you mention it

I’m starting to see that problem being quite possible. It’s better to be strapped for cash but rich in assets (like picks) to help prevent overpaying.

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 19, 2011 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

The problem for the trade then

and the problem with the trade now is it could been done later. The Clips were already out of the playoff picture. You can always find a way to trade that pick. If it ends up being the 1st or 2nd overall pick and Kyrie Irving is available at that pick the franchise will regret it for years.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 19, 2011 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

exactly what I wrote the day after the Baron trade happened

if you don’t want the cap hold, the pick can be traded the day of the draft.

It could have even been traded for future picks, which won’t have cap holds

Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas

by bacek on Apr 19, 2011 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

This makes me sad :(

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 19, 2011 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah in a down year

Keep arguing nonsense CC, maybe someone will believe you. There’s nothing unreasonable about the move that was made.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 19, 2011 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Heh

read above, how many people agreed with me above? Quite a few. How many people agree with you? Ok, thanks for playing.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 19, 2011 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yah you so smart

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 19, 2011 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Why do you want to overpay for someone?

That’s NOT a good thing. That’s how create “bad” contracts that you can’t get rid of later on.

by Thretch on Apr 21, 2011 7:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

I agree

thats why I said its not necessarily a good thing the Clips created more cap space. Before they had a reasonable set price for a SF but now they might get desperate and overpay.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 21, 2011 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

Huh - I thought you were endorsing overpaying

You said: “Given the SF FAs the cap benefit of the trade is that you can now overpay someone.”

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 21, 2011 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

sarcasm

why would I want them to overpay someone?

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 21, 2011 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Historically, I'd expect it

But more recently, they seem more cautious. Signing Gomes and Foye may have been the FO shooting themselves in the foot, but at least they didn’t shoot themselves in the face and overpay someone for a really long term contract.

Yes, Gomes/Foye/Cook are overpaid, and yes last off-season was a failure in hindsight, but the silver lining is that they are small fish next to the big disasters I normally would have expected. That sounds so pathetic. :(

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 21, 2011 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Come on

Foye was hurt and is playing better. Gomes looked good historically. They didn’t sign high priced free agents and really needed to see how the team played together. Why is Foye in particular overpaid?

And no, the fact that the FO needed to see what we had is not pathetic. It’s a pretty good practice. Of course, this summer they need to follow through.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 21, 2011 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Foye was awful

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/3003/randy-foye

He sure did finish the season strong however, he was able to shoot below 30% in April. He had just one month where he shot over 40%. But its okay, I’m sure he made up for it by his impressive rebounding and play-making. Oh no… he didn’t.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 21, 2011 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Gomes looked good historically???

Please explain. At best he was sub-standard.

Here was Hollinger’s breakdown before the season even started.

+ Tweener physically but has consistently played better as a 4 than as a 3.

+ Good midrange shooter, especially from baseline, but average at best on 3s.

+ Smart player with good hands but limited athleticism. Good nose for ball.

A walking monument to half-good players everywhere, Gomes ranked between 28th and 42nd among small forwards in 13 of the 16 categories I track. The only major differences are that he drew fouls less often, shot better from the line than his peers and rarely blocked shots.

Gomes isn’t average in at least one respect: He’s a very good midrange shooter, making 48.5 percent of his long 2s last season and 44.9 percent the year before. He isn’t so shabby on 3s either (37.2 percent each of the past two seasons). However, he’s been much more effective as a 4 than as a 3 — according to 82games.com, over the past two seasons his PER has been a staggering five points higher when he plays the 4.

Unfortunately for Gomes, he is likely to play most of his minutes at the 3, because the Clippers need a lot more help on the wing.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 21, 2011 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

If he played to his historical numbers

Gomes would have been ok. He is what he is.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 21, 2011 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

If it means anything

Historical Gomes isn’t substantially different from this past year’s Josh Childress and Mike Miller… and so if he had gotten his normal numbers, we would have had a bargain vs the Suns or Heat, since Gomes is cheaper.

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 21, 2011 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

They are substantially different

See here

Note the huge difference in TS%. And it doesn’t even factor in how bad Gomes is specifically as a SF and how his rebounding numbers are higher based off having played his best minutes as a PF.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 21, 2011 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

No, I meant

2006-2011 Gomes
vs
2010-2011 Childress
and
2010-2011 Miller

Obviously that’s cherry picking, but if Gomes had been playing to historical levels, no one would be saying anything about it, I bet. (They probably should, but it’d just get swept under the rug.)

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 21, 2011 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Childress would still be scoring

at a much more efficient rate and Miller would be the superior rebounder. Gomes actually has played close to his historical levels as a SMALL FORWARD. As pointed out by a few people when the signing happened it was noted that Gomes played much better as a PF not as a SF (a problem since the Clippers needed him to play SF). So the team signed a guy to play out of his natural position to be their regular starter. Brilliant.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 21, 2011 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm just personally biased against Foye

I can’t stand the types of shots he takes. I also can’t stand the types of shots Joe Johnson takes, or the ones Allen Iverson took. So the overpaid thing is just my opinion for Foye.

For Cook, it’s just them sideburns. He’s been okay, but 2 years is the balls.

For Gomes, historical Gomes would have been nice. At the time, I don’t think we were overpaying him… just based on the product we actually got. If he goes back to historical levels, he’s just regular-paid I think.

It’s not like any of them got the MLE, so they’re really only slightly overpaid. Being that they aren’t old as dirt, their market value is surely higher than the veteran’s minimum. Optimistically, I prefer to think of the bullets dodged as the successes from last summer. The Bulls get to gloat about a ton of acquisitions, and we just get to gloat about NOT screwing up that badly. That’s the pathetic part for me.

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 21, 2011 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Last off-season wasn't a failure in hindsight

a lot of people already called if a failure a month after free agency opened. C’mon max cap space and you end up with Foye and Gomes? You really need a crystal ball to see how that was going to end?

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 21, 2011 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

The team was playing well

in Jan. The main problems were not what you continually focus on but rather BD showing up out of shape and getting injured, Kaman and then EJ going down in Feb. I agree that the team could have had more depth, but again they didn’t know what they had.

I’m optimistic about next year. However, they do need to make some signings this summer.

You can continue to focus on Foye and Gomes if you want to, but those signings were not teh key issues.

Seems obvious. This will be my final word on this as I don’t have time to continually debate with you (if this can reasonably be termed a debate).

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 21, 2011 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Its not a debate

you would have to be offering some semblance of a defense for it to be considered a debate.

You can continue to focus on Foye and Gomes if you want to, but those signings were not teh key issues.

So the free agents the front office signed are not the key issue in deciding how the front office did last off-season? What? Do you sometimes forget and wear your underwear outside your pants?

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 21, 2011 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sure, Chuckles

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 21, 2011 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nice answer

serious take a crack at providing some facts or ANYTHING behind your argument besides some vague general talking points.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 21, 2011 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's all above and you are just wasting time

The key issues for the FO as I’ve explained were just trying to turn this ridiculous clown-like franchise into a respectable NBA team where players would want to come here. In addition, we really didn’t know what we had in BG or EJ for that matter. So running around like chickens with our heads cut off signing aging vets to huge contracts (i.e., overpaying) would not have made good business sense. Now that BG has done what everyone hoped they are in a much better position to move forward.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 21, 2011 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

If anyone turned this...
ridiculous clown-like franchise into a respectable NBA team

it was MDSr who was able to sign free agents, make trades for good players (Cassell, ZBo and Camby say hello). He also drafted well (aside from Korolev) didn’t he?

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 21, 2011 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

But at the end of the day

He did not succeed. The EB fiasco was in my mind the cornerstone of the clown-like nature of his involvement. Good franchise type players like EB simply did not respect the guy. Just ask him.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 21, 2011 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

How dare you

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 21, 2011 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree

EJ is an integral part of this team. Aside from the PG issues, and AFA developing, this team has the athleticism and potential to make the playoffs. Keeping them together I think is crucial, but we really need either VDN or someone else that can help unlock all this potential. It’s a mindset that comes from the top down that will instill confidence and help this team overcome injuries too. Philly seems to be in the position that i’d like to see the Clips in next year.

by rouse77 on Apr 19, 2011 8:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yea ya know there's all this talk about trades

But frankly I’d be happy with the current roster + some extra pieces. Plus then we have the chance to build some team chemistry, which might seem like one of those eye-test things, but it’s one I certainly believe in.

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 19, 2011 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

Secondly

If what I afraid will happen comes to pass, that the team will cap itself out without making a leap, that doesn’t work towards the goal of making it an attractive free agent destination.

by John R on Apr 18, 2011 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

Can't argue with that

Hopefully the new CBA somehow plays in our situational favor.

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 18, 2011 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

Memphis did what you fear

And they are ithe playoffs and might (probably not) upset San Antonip

"Every existing thing is born without reason, prolongs itself out of weakness, and dies by chance" -Jean-Paul Sarte

by Jayq on Apr 18, 2011 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think the fear is being perennially in the bottom half of the playoffs

Capping out at where Memphis is (and they will be capped there for some time, unless their rookies can measure up….)

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 18, 2011 7:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Being a perennial playoff team

Bottom or otherwise sounds fantastic to me. The Clippers never go to the playoffs, so I’m not about to shit on the idea of building a team that may not win it all but will play extra games every season.

by Michael White on Apr 19, 2011 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

being in the bottom of the playoffs

is a lot closer to a championship than being where the Clippers have been for the past 5 years

Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas

by bacek on Apr 19, 2011 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

For 19 out of the past 20 years you mean

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 19, 2011 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Actually

4 out of the last 20 years.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAC/

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 19, 2011 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

I thought we'd made the playoffs once in 20 years.

I guess the LB years were right on the cusp of that.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Apr 19, 2011 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm cool with just making the playoffs as well

In fact if the Clippers were owned by almost any other owner than DTS I would totally expect to become title contenders in 3-5 years. Instead I worry that he will eventually get tired of being first round lambs and move on to a team with a passionate owner.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 19, 2011 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

beggers can't be choosers

IIRC the old playground saying

Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas

by bacek on Apr 19, 2011 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

True that

Didn’t mean to make it seem like I was turning my nose up at being a playoff team in the west. That’s a huge accomplishment and I’d be more than happy with it. The real danger zone is being the 9th or 10th seed in the west, permanently. Not ever the worst, but not good enough to compete. And with that, may I please introduce you to my Golden State Warriros :(

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 19, 2011 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Good writeup Steve but I was hoping for that season-ending report card...

…on the Clips franchise from the front office to VDN to Willie Warren… then, maybe your take on what happens next season.

Lets have at it.

by Gmann on Apr 18, 2011 11:15 AM PDT reply actions  

I don't know how much truth there is to this

but I went to a Laker game last year (gross? Yes.) and I met a guy who’s an MD and interning at Kerlan and Jobe (the surgeons for all major sports teams in LA). He told me that the chief surgeons there were pissed with Clippers training staff for the way they handled Blake Griffin’s knee because they mistreated his rehab. According to him, Powell was the reason for Blake’s season ending.

Who knows how much truth there is to that but still a story worth telling when talking about the Clippers and injuries.

by yaggiefresh on Apr 19, 2011 7:41 PM PDT reply actions  

nope not at all

example

Chase Utley right now

If Blake had surgery he would have been done for the year. Yeah, I know the timetable would have probably let him come back around April, but that would have been stupid especially if Blake wasn’t 100%

Blake’s a competitor, and he was trying to do everything he could to compete.

Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas

by bacek on Apr 20, 2011 1:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

Agree completely

I’m actually happy w/ the way the injury turned out. I see absolutely no lasting effects. Good job whoever was responsible for that. 10 rookie season games of Blake last year wouldn’t have landed us LeBron, and it would have prevented him from getting the ROY award he deserves.

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 20, 2011 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

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