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Where does it say that the eye test "constantly fails?"

Maybe Final Four appearances are correlated to some intangible “leadership” or “feel for the moment” quality. Not saying I buy this, but it’s possible, and the article doesn’t refute it.

by ReignMan on Apr 4, 2011 12:03 PM PDT reply actions  

If you don't buy it, why would you put it forth?

If the scouts buy it, why would some claim they try to ignore the Final Four so they eye test doesn’t fool them?

Who is buying it? And yet here we are, TWELVE positions on average based on one or two games.

And these are the supposed professionals and best in the world. If their eyes and instincts can’t be trusted, I am supposed to trust my own? Well that would just be hubris.

by John R on Apr 4, 2011 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

The article only says that ONE scout intentionally ignores the Final Four...

Maybe all other scouts think that a player’s performance in big college games is an accurate indicator of “clutchness” or “leadership.” And maybe those traits carry forward to the NBA. Does the article disprove that theory at all? Does it show that success in the NCAA tournament is non-correlated to individual and/or team success in the NBA? I am highly skeptical of such a theory, but I don’t think the article can be read to suggest that the eye test “constantly fails.”

by ReignMan on Apr 4, 2011 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

This blog post does not need to show all of those things to get its point across

Its a blog post

Also, clutchness and leadership? Exactly the sort of ideas that get you an undeserved 12 spot jump. Well he has been this player for 60 collegiate games over two years, but man that clutchness and leadership he showed in losing the national championship game. Let’s move that guy up our draft board immediately.

by John R on Apr 4, 2011 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Arguing facts not in evidence. As reignman says the article discusses the correlation between final four and draft stock, but it does NOT track the correlation by that impacted sample (the guys whos stock rose) and their performance in the pros. Without that, we can’t say that the eye test failed at all. Perhaps those guys ended up having better careers compared to the entire population.

All that being said, I very much doubt it. I expect the draft busts are seen more in this sample than in the population at large. Perhaps Berri et al detail that in their book, but it’s not in the linked article.

by Michael White on Apr 4, 2011 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well

Does their their performance really matter? That said, its a blog post. The details are the book.

Still, the chance that it is correct to bump these guys 12 positions is correct would have to be pretty slim. Forest trees here.

by John R on Apr 4, 2011 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, their performance absolutely matters. If they perform better than the entire population that would suggest that the eye test succeeds. If they perform worse it suggets that the eye test fails. My hunch is the same as yours as to how those draft picks fare, but absent that information their is nothing in that blog post which supports your title of “The Final Four, the Eye Test, and how it constantly fails” (emphasis mine.)

I get that its a blog post and meant to stimulate discussion. And if they did the research in the book then great (I assumed they had,) but your title is misleading.

by Michael White on Apr 4, 2011 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

If you say so

I don’t even know who the current crop of Final Four guys are so I won’t waste time figuring it out.

Plus, to a non-stats guy, do those stats prove anything? I say no.

by John R on Apr 4, 2011 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Michael W

Thanks for making my point in a more eloquent way.

by ReignMan on Apr 4, 2011 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

The hole(s) in John R's argument is not about the misleading title

I will wait for John R’s main detractors to chime in.

Mainly, because I like the hilarity that usually ensues.

Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas

by bacek on Apr 4, 2011 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'll make the popcorn...

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 4, 2011 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 4, 2011 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

LOL

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 4, 2011 7:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

There are flaws in this argument, I will wait to see if John R's detractors can pinpoint it

There is one person that I believe may be able to find them…

Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas

by bacek on Apr 4, 2011 12:55 PM PDT reply actions  

Yeah, its the nature of a blog post

For not actually containing any new research or commentary, it pretty much smashes anything Simmons could possibly come up with.

by John R on Apr 4, 2011 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

I know you know the flaws

people that keep on bringing up leadership… not so much

Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas

by bacek on Apr 4, 2011 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Curious to know the underlying math...

The article is suprisingly light on specifics…I assume there was some sort of regression model (that predicts draft position) to support this? If so, I would expect some sort of binary variable of “final four appearance” to be a part of it…

It sounds like the article suggests at least some correlation between final four appearances and draft position…but is it really saying one causes the other? I doubt it.

Just because there might be some correlation between the two doesn’t necessarily mean GM’s are just using that for their draft prep…

All this said, I have no horse in this war on advanced stats…I’m a moderate and care about objectivity…

by banandy on Apr 4, 2011 1:43 PM PDT reply actions  

Regressions were run

Variables were held constant.

by John R on Apr 4, 2011 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hmmm... a few things:

The 12 spot improvement—-Is this based on a comparison to their projected draft position after the Final Four appearance to the projected position just before the tournament? Or is it based on a player’s projected position the year before and (if available) the year after the year they go to the Final Four? Or finally is it based on a database full of players with X college stats, who typically are drafted at Y position (which would cause countless problems)? I expect it’s the first one.

Draft scouts—-These guys might have the most consequence-free job in the world. They screw up and draft a bust early, it’s the guy’s fault for not translating to the NBA’s speed and athleticism. If they draft a star late, they look like complete studs who could find a diamond in an ice storm. And if they draft a bust late or a star early, it’s just business as usual.

Drafting based on the tournament and the eye-test—-I think the underlying difficulty with accurately drafting from collegiate athletes is that they play the majority of their games within their conference. This means that there are rarely any opportunities to watch NBA-level players play against each other. The best opportunity, it would appear, would be the NCAA Tournament, particularly in the later rounds. So these scouts place heavier value on these games because they think the competition is probably as good as it’s going to get. This is obviously flawed logic and a huge misuse of the eye-test. (I’d like to think the eye-test that many of us talk about involves watching a player on a team for a more significant amount of time than the NCAA Tournament.)

Draft position and NBA careers—-I remember earlier someone who had previously discussed that draft position has a large impact on the longevity of an NBA player’s career. Was that you John R? If not, someone refresh my memory. Anyhow, I think that concept might conflict with Berri’s argument here. Berri infers that some players are improperly being drafted 12 slots higher, but if highly-drafted players tend to have longer careers, doesn’t that imply that they are also more talented? If so, then the phenomenon Berri discusses probably represents a largely insignificant portion of NBA draftees from the NCAA.

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 4, 2011 2:21 PM PDT reply actions  

Draft position and NBA careers

It was me. It works at least both ways though. They get to stay because they get a guaranteed four year contract and its hard to admit mistakes were made. Plus they get lingering hype just for being Final Four guys and first round picks. Being drafted in the first round helps bad players stick around more than expected. Think about how important reputation is in the NBA and how slow perceptions change once they are started.

I think it would probably make someone a better draft day guy to never watch a single NCAA game.

by John R on Apr 4, 2011 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh duh

I forgot about those guaranteed NBA contracts. Undoubtedly has a gigantic impact. It’s not necessarily deserved lengthy NBA careers, but lengthy nonetheless. It took forever for OJ Mayo to stop starting.

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by Erik O on Apr 4, 2011 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not sure how long the contracts are though

Like Joe Alexander was a 2008 first round lottery pick and he’s already out of the league. Only the first 2 years are guaranteed. It’s much more safe than it used to be (rookies use to be able to sign huge contracts right away, remember Glenn Robinson?)

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Apr 4, 2011 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

My eye test

Unless one is a freshman (or in select cases, a sophomore), the mere fact that they are still playing college ball means that they aren’t very good.

Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)

by mikey p on Apr 5, 2011 9:59 AM PDT reply actions  

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