Cleveland Wins Lottery with Clippers Pick - That Hurts
by Steve Perrin on May 17, 2011 10:58 PM PDT
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PrintHere's the thing I keep telling myself, and I want to tell all of you as well: the trade the Clippers made on February 24th is no different today than it was yesterday or the day before that or the day the deal was done. It always included a very small likelihood (2.8% in the final analysis) of the first pick in the draft, and a higher though still pretty small (10%) chance of a top three pick. So kicking your feet and screaming the F-word and such is more than a little silly. The Clippers have exactly the same thing today that they had yesterday, which is no lottery pick. And the fact that the long odds for the number one pick actually paid off for Cleveland doesn't change the trade that was made. Get over it.
However, it's obvious that tonight was painful. From a purely emotional standpoint, having the pick that was traded to Cleveland wind up as the number one pick hurts. One particularly wonders, and I've asked this question many times before, if that trade could not have been consummated with restrictions on the pick? Obviously Cleveland was unwilling to do the deal with top three protection on the pick, because clearly that would have been the Clippers' starting point. So Olshey blinked first and pulled the trigger for an unrestricted pick, and crossed his fingers and hoped that this wouldn't happen: this very thing that happened tonight.
Of course, this would hurt a little less if I didn't already dislike the trade. I really felt like Baron Davis was a very good fit for this team - it would be an exaggeration to say that he was the perfect fit, but many of his strengths, particularly his ability to push the tempo, break down defenses, and deliver pinpoint passes, were ideally suited to playing with the likes of Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan, and I felt like Baron was doing a terrific job of adapting his game to the situation. I'll admit that while watching the NBA Playoffs, every time I see that Kia commercial is a painful reminder of a player I liked very much; that was literally the last time we saw Baron in a Clippers' uniform.
But the most important thing to bear in mind at this point is this: the trade is still not complete. The sole reason the pick was included - the one and only reason that Cleveland required such a large spoonful of sugar to sweeten the deal - is the additional financial flexibility it affords the Clippers. Before passing final judgment on this trade, we have to wait and see what the Clippers do with that additional flexibility. If in the end the lower team payroll that is the result of swapping Baron's salary for that of Mo Williams only serves to save Donald Sterling some money, then yeah, it's a bad, bad trade, historically bad. How else do you describe a trade that makes you worse in the short term, costs you a lottery pick in the near term, and doesn't help in the long term? If however the Clippers use that lower payroll in some way to acquire the player they really need, a quality small forward, then it will have accomplished exactly what Neil Olshey hoped it would. So here's hoping that Neil knows what he's doing. (You can rest assured that the results of the lottery have increased the urgency of getting something done this summer.)
The final chapter of Baron Davis for Mo Williams is not written yet - we haven't even met all the characters yet. In the meantime, some team was going to win the lottery, and we already knew it wouldn't be the Clippers. Would you prefer that a Western Conference team had gotten the first overall pick? You have to be happy for the Cavs and Nick Gilbert tonight, after what they've been through.
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Well said...
I didn’t agree with the trade, but I do agree that we haven’t seen the last piece of it. We have to see what Olshey is going to do with the extra cap space we acquired from the trade. If the player meets or exceeds our expectations then we got the better end of the deal. I speak for all of Clipper Nation when I say…WE WANT TO WIN NOW!
Lisa Dillman tweets from Olshey
Via Clips, Olshey, re lottery: “We made the decision at the trade deadline that the next step for our team was going to be via trade or FA”
More Neil Olshey: "Adding Mo Williams and $8.5 m in cap room gives us better odds of improving than a 2.8% chance of winning the lottery..
Olshey cont: “…And adding a seventh player under 23 to our roster.”
Olshey: “Additionally, we had a 97% chance of sitting here tonight with Baron Davis, the 8th pick in a bad draft and no cap flexibility.”
In my opinion the trade was all about getting rid of Baron. Doesn’t Olshey realize there’s going to be a lockout. There won’t be any cap space when the cap is $8mil less then this year. Better do something before July 1st.
IGGY or bust
More Olshey.
“In hindsight, I would never, ever, ever have made the deal.”
Stupid Olshey
that’s a lot of mistakes to make 18 months into a job.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on May 18, 2011 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Unless contracts are scaled down proprotionately to reflect the reduction in the salary cap.
Proud member of Club FTR
by Lawler 4ever on May 17, 2011 10:20 PM PDT up reply actions
"god didn't do this, WE DID!"
wine um, dine um, 69 um
by flightofthegriffin on May 17, 2011 11:04 PM PDT up reply actions
You can rest assured that the results of the lottery have increased the urgency of getting something done this summer.
Very good point.
Yeah, gotta like that part of it.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
by Erik O on May 20, 2011 10:51 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
2 things
1. Olshey didn’t “blink first”. We couldn’t top-3 protect it because of the pick we owe Boston in the Bledsoe deal.
2. It’s worth pointing out that we’d likely have fallen below the Pistons with Baron Davis (he missed 7 of 22 games while with the Cavs) and wound up with the 8th pick (assuming the ping pong falls fell the same way and Detroit leapfrogged us).
Not sure I follow
Protection might have complicated it, but it certainly was not impossible. Are you talking about a Stepien rule? We still have a 2012 pick regardless of the Bledsoe trade, so I’m not sure I follow.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on May 17, 2011 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Eric Pincus said so on Twitter (and again a second time, after confirming with his initial sources)
I think it’s because if the pick is deferred to next year, and our pick is outside the top-ten and worse than the Minnesota pick, then that pick is already owed to Boston. I don’t think it’s possible to say “Top-3 protected this year, and if next year we can’t give it to you, then we’ll give it you the year after that”
You can say whatever you want...
It’s a trade… pretty much you can word it however you want. So, yeah, I think it might have been complicated, but it wasn’t impossible. That’s what Olshey more or less said to Ramona Shelburne in this story. “Cleveland never would have done it [for a protected pick]. Their intent was to have an additional pick this year.” If it was impossible, why say that Cleveland wouldn’t have done it?
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on May 17, 2011 11:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Alright, well then I don't know.
Pincus said he’d explain it in a column tomorrow.
http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/columns/story?id=6564663
The Stepien Rule was in play because the Wolves weren’t guaranteed to finish in the bottom 10 at the time of the trade.
That said, the Clippers COULD have protected the pick, but it would have been a terrible decision. Had we done so, and finished out of the bottom 10 next year, we’d have to send our pick to the Celtics, and thus have to give our remaining pick (Wolves’) to the Cavs.
The draft lottery is rigged.
Happens almost every year. CLE won because of what LeBron did to that team and city (but why couldn’t they have won with their own damn pick). I’m not mad though, that pick had such low odds, can’t blame Neil. And I’m sure he insisted on protections, but there is no way CLE takes BD’s contract if it didn’t mean a chance at a Top 3 pick. In the end, I thought the same thing as Steve…this turn of events will turn up the burner to get something serious done this off-season.
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on May 17, 2011 10:24 PM PDT reply actions
Olshey sucks
Anyone seen madglove?
Who trades away a first overall and Baron Daivs for a journeyman PG?
Was there any law mandating that the trade happen on the day it did?
by John R on May 17, 2011 10:34 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
nope just fate's giant shaft
wine um, dine um, 69 um
by flightofthegriffin on May 17, 2011 10:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Hey, Mo Williams is good
On the prospect of Mo Williams for Baron alone, it’s a no-brainer. Mo is clearly at this point a better player. Since the draft pick is involved however, I can’t say the trade was a clear winner for the Clips. I think the front office at that point had already decided that they were going to re-sign D Jordan and sign a vet SF in the offseason. So they pulled the trigger on the trade. If the Clips accomplished those two goals this offseason and end up in the playoffs next year, then everything would have worked out as planned.
Let’s face it, the ZBo trade was much worse…..
This is going to be my team, and we're going to rise together.
-Clipper Darrell
which Zbo trade?
Cat+Thomas for Zbo?
or Zbo for Q-Rich (which became Telfair, Rhino, Madsen, Butler)
not too bad since the first trade meant more PT for Gordon and the 2nd added a bench and allowed PT for Griffin
now to the Mo-Baron trade…i’d take Baron’s passing/swagger/leadership/toughness over Mo’s shooting/somewhat surprising playmaking to pair with Blake Griffin
Mo’s shooting is only good because Blake will set him up…which means Blake makes Mo’s job easier
on the other hand
Baron’s passing is good for Blake (and Jordon)…which means Baron makes Blake’s job easier
I Am Witness to the 1st BLAKE GRIFFIN Triple-Double! And the 2nd Triple-Double!
Thanks for the calm down post Steve
You might as well blame the FO in the years the first round pick isn’t first overall, or give credit for the Clips landing Blake.
Although I did have a bad feeling when the Clips FO were declaring this year’s draft one of the worst ever. From the 2000 draft, which did end up being one of the worst ever, the Clips managed to get 3 first round picks. I don’t remember the circumstances around that draft, but I was afraid this year might be a reverse of that.
we got minny pick for marko jaric!
so we are not so bad
by bewilder on May 17, 2011 10:42 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Minny Pick and Sam Cassell (who led us to the playoffs) for a big Marko Jaric contract that they still have on theirs books today!
that is probably the most refreshing news i’ve heard since the lottery
I Am Witness to the 1st BLAKE GRIFFIN Triple-Double! And the 2nd Triple-Double!
If we don't trade Baron
our win loss record is different at the end of the year- hence different number of ping pong balls. Though I agree with steve’s point that this is emotionally painful; it’s just not logically painful.
by KeithClossrules on May 17, 2011 10:43 PM PDT reply actions
+1 Exactly
The that is the definition of lottery. If Baron trade does not happen, the season does not play out the same and the no guarentee that the same ping pong balls are used. It is random.
do we realize we need to keep blake griffin?
I’m just wondering how stupid this must look to blake. why would free agents come here after witnessing a stupid move like this, obviously we have no idea what we are doing. thanks for the effort tho neil*golf clap* everyone knows we are cheap and now we are cheap and stupid.
I look forward to seeing kwame brown in a clipper uni next season when DJ doesn’t get extended because we simply don’t have the cap room. Hey let’s trade the minny pick for vince carter so that way we have the cap room to extend eric gordon once vince expires. If this VERY EXPENSIVE cap room doesn’t net us something we aren’t gonna have a damn team just a bunch of gomeses and a gaping hole where blake used to be.
wine um, dine um, 69 um
by flightofthegriffin on May 17, 2011 10:49 PM PDT reply actions
I think Griffin is a smart kid.
He’ll realize that this wasn’t such a stupid move and what happened, happened on a 2.8% chance.
In no way was this trade “stupid”….
Proud member of Club FTR. falconPUNCH! for president!
bledsoe > irving
"The perception here in Los Angeles has always been that the Lakers find a way to win games and the Clippers find a way to lose…I recognize it, but I'm not going to accept it," Griffin said. "I'm not going to say, 'Oh, that's fine."
by TheEricGordonShow on May 17, 2011 10:54 PM PDT reply actions
bledsoe>williams
wine um, dine um, 69 um
by flightofthegriffin on May 18, 2011 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Unprotected picks
I will say this – I don’t remember the last time that an unprotected pick that wound up in the lottery was traded – and there were two of them this year. I mean, usually when a team has an extra lottery pick, it’s after restrictions have expired, or possibly it’s with top three protections still attached. Can anyone remember similar deals, where obvious lottery teams (LAC, NJN) traded picks that wound up in the top three withing months of the lottery? At least NJ got an all star (sorry, a legit all star) in the deal.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
no cuz we r historically stupid
wine um, dine um, 69 um
by flightofthegriffin on May 17, 2011 11:05 PM PDT up reply actions
you see upset
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on May 17, 2011 11:17 PM PDT up reply actions
The main reason it happened this year is that they figured there was less to lose.
There could be some hidden gems, but it’s wide open. Some players will pan out unexpectedly like usual, but there’s a lack of players that you can build a franchise around or pencil in as an all-star down the road.
New Jersey did get a star, but he was not extended. If he walks, then they basically gave up:
Derrick Favors (2010 #3), 2011 #3, Devin Harris and the 2012 Golden State 1st round pick (Top-7 protected) for nothing/cap space. Ouch.
Proud member of Club FTR
by Lawler 4ever on May 18, 2011 12:37 AM PDT up reply actions
Agreed
Reflecting on it some more, especially considering the lock out which kept several College freshman in the NCAA, I think it works like this. This draft is bad, but next draft is good. So say you top 3 protect the pick for this draft – well, the 10th pick next year may be better than the third pick this year. So LAC and NJN took their chances and hoped they wouldn’t give up too high a pick this year, but didn’t want to roll it over to next year either way.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on May 18, 2011 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions
That's nuts
Irving is a stud in any draft.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on May 18, 2011 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Really combo guard that missed half of his only season
he wouldn’t be top 5 in most drafts.
"It's better to be an optimist who is sometimes wrong than a pessimist who is always right"unknown
Wrong wrong wrong
He was projected top 3 from the time the season started. And with Barnes not being very good especially early on Irving moved to first. And he’s not considered a combo guard by anyone.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on May 18, 2011 6:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Kyrie Irving is another Kyle Lowry
"The perception here in Los Angeles has always been that the Lakers find a way to win games and the Clippers find a way to lose…I recognize it, but I'm not going to accept it," Griffin said. "I'm not going to say, 'Oh, that's fine."
by TheEricGordonShow on May 18, 2011 10:53 PM PDT up reply actions
+1
he was projected top 3 in a draft that GM’s have been saying is going to be weak draft since way before the college season started.
"It's better to be an optimist who is sometimes wrong than a pessimist who is always right"unknown
He was the highest ranked freshmen
which means he was higher ranked than Barnes, Jones, Sullinger and Lamb who are projected to be in the top 7 in the draft next year according to NBADRAFT.net.
http://www.nbadraft.net/2012mock_draft
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on May 19, 2011 11:35 PM PDT up reply actions
You seem to be his champion
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
I have no stake in it
but it’s a Jaxian-level of ignorance to say he wouldn’t be a top 10 pick in 2012.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on May 20, 2011 6:02 PM PDT up reply actions
The only thing stopping me...
from pulling my hair out right now is the fact that this draft is so weak, and there is no clear cut, franchise player out there. This could easily turn into another Olowakandi draft, and I for one am glad the Clips don’t have the opportunity to screw this draft up.
Do or do not. There is no try.
Agreed......
Will Irving improve our team by 10-15 wins next season? Probably not. If it’s any consolation at least this happened in a weak draft and not a strong one!!
by Natedog1977 on May 18, 2011 12:00 AM PDT up reply actions
we already have 2 franchise players
in Griffin in Gordon
we need good players to put around them…
whether they be solid/border line star players from the draft or a known veteran talent from FA/trades…we need to get someone to put around Blake/Gordon…
we dont necessarily need another franchise player to build around
I Am Witness to the 1st BLAKE GRIFFIN Triple-Double! And the 2nd Triple-Double!
With the first pick in a draft though
I would be willing to bet that you are hoping for a franchise player…NOT an Olowakandi type.
If Olshey takes the last piece of the trade puzzle (the salary relief) and can somehow parlay that into a solid/borderline star player at the 3, then I am much more comfortable with that then waiting another 3 years for the guy that they would have drafted to mature.
People have to remember that guys like Blake, DRose and Wall are NOT in every draft….and this draft is really weak.
At the very least, I think if the Clips would have kept the #1 pick this year, they would be trying to trade down and and possibly out of this draft…thats how poor this draft is, and how good (potentially) next years could be.
Do or do not. There is no try.
It sucks but it could of been whole lot worse
Both Clev and Utah made deals involving unrestricted picks that led to laker showtime
Utah: For the right to sign Gail Goodrich traded 77,78,79 first round picks that ended up being the 6th, 8th and the no. 1 pick(Magic Johnson)
Clev: In 1980 Clev traded 1982 No 1.(James worthy) for a 1980 first round pick.
We still have Griffin/Gordon and there is less than a 2.8 percent chance that any player from this years class can become what they can.
BTY the 98 draft was a deep draft it just so happened that we picked one of the couple landmines in Olowokandi. Heck Nowitzki just put up a beyond amazing game almost 13 years after the 98 draft.
by Chris O'Reilly on May 17, 2011 11:30 PM PDT reply actions
Even if we didn't make the trade, most likely our win total would have been different, which means a different amount of ping-pong balls, making tonight's outcome moot.
At least that’s a way to view things with reaching for a rope.
I've got nothing.
WITHOUT reaching for a rope.
Hell, maybe my whole premise was reaching.
Oh, nevermind.
I've got nothing.
Sucks...
We have to wait and see…if the cavs pick a guy that ends up being an all star than we can all cry. This all brings me back to D Rose. He wasn’t really that great right off the bat and I assumed he would be a good player but not an MVP. Well I guess I was wrong. Hopefully the clippers front office wasn’t wrong in thinking this draft has no real standouts and we did not give away a potential MVP to go along with our current MVP.
bear in mind
There will likely be an all star picked at 8 or below. There almost always is. In a draft like this one, the best players almost never go first. Take 1998. Top three, Olowokandi, Bibby, LaFrentz. Nowitzki 9, Pierce 10. You can always play the “if only we had picked that guy game.” Trading the lottery pick was all that had to happen to get us into that game, if we look back 5 years from now. It likely won’t be Kyrie irving (or whoever goes first) that turns out to be the best player.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on May 18, 2011 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Knowing DTS
he will fire Olshey when the Clippers miss the playoffs next year and hire David Kahn from the Timberwolves to fix things.
"I gotta have more cowbell and a small forward for The Clippers" Bruce Dickinson
Squandered a chance to play the rookies late in the season
Another thing that hurts about the draft results is the fact that the Clippers squandered a chance to play Aminu and Bledsoe heavy minutes late in the season because they were trying to win games………..
Meh...
In a draft where Jimmer Fredette is a first round pick, I’m happy to be out of this draft. You can’t convince me that Irving is better than Jonny Flynn when he came out of Syracuse.
Let’s be completely honest Duke does not produce Franchise Point Guards.
Enes Kanter is probably the best player in this year draft.
This would hurt if Harrison Barnes was in the draft.
I hope we can get Bojan Bogdanovic in the second round.
Stupid reasoning
Let’s be completely honest Duke does not produce Franchise Point Guards.
How many colleges produce franchise PG? Last I checked not a single college had produced multiple “franchise PG”. The closest isn’t a university but John Calipari’s team (John Wall, Derrick Rose and Tyreke Evans isn’t a PG) and that’s because those guys came into their colleges as top ranked PGs to begin with. UCLA with Westbrook, Farmar, Holliday, Baron? Heck 2 of those guys didn’t even play PG at UCLA and Baron was from a long ago regime.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on May 18, 2011 6:00 PM PDT up reply actions
those are franchise PGs?
How many franchise PGs are in the league? Like 10 tops? Did any of them go to the same college?
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on May 19, 2011 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes
Duke PGs need to stay off the roads. Poor Bobby Hurley.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on May 19, 2011 6:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Woulda, coulda, shoulda
Steve P makes a great point that we can’t pass judgement on the trade just yet. Cleveland made the equivalent of a 60 foot heave at the end of the 3rd quarter when they won the #1 pick. But, there’s still a fourth quarter to play and we will have to wait and see.
By the way, and just to add fuel to the fire, who wants to lay a friendly wager that BD will be in shape to play when and if next season begins? He’s the guy who made the trade necessary by not working out last summer, coming to camp out-of-shape, and missing games early season. He’s not the veteran leader you want your under 23s to emulate.
Clips dont really have a good record in closing out games in the 4Q
and I thought all the speculations of Baron being fat coming in where false…please kept saying it but noted sources such as Pincus and our own Perrin said it wasn’t true based on their own eyes
maybe he wasn’t in the best shape…but he wasnt out of shape
also the trade happened because of his contract not his production…because well, he was producing in the way we needed him up until the trade
and Baron wasn’t the leader…once Blake started to dominated he became the leader and Baron knew it….plus ALL the players (see: Jordan) emulated Blake’s habits (work ethic)…Baron was not a factor in this.
I Am Witness to the 1st BLAKE GRIFFIN Triple-Double! And the 2nd Triple-Double!
all I know is we would’ve been stuck with Baron’s HUGE contract and he woulda only given us 40-60 games! I’m still down with the trade.
"The Lakers do win games. But things can change." – Blake Griffin
"all I know is we would’ve been stuck with Baron’s HUGE contract and he woulda only given us 40-60 games! I’m still down with the trade."
Well, thank goodness Mo played more games this season…Oh wait!
Thank goodness Gordon has played more games than Baron ( got here in the same season)….Oh wait!
Thank goodness Griffin played more games in the last 2 seasons than Baron…Oh wait!
Thank goodness Kaman has played more games than Baron in the last 3 seasons…Oh wait!
Uh thank goodness our young players and core of the future are Iron-men.
Mo misses just as much games when you look at their careers.
Yep
I don’t get why people act as if Mo is somehow more durable than Baron. He’s not. They both miss more games than average.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on May 18, 2011 5:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Still feelin' fine
Even if the draft weren’t so weak, I’m not partial to having another U23 kid to have to develop. Even with a top 3 pick there’s still a big chance that it could be a bust. It’s smarter to get an established SF that we know can produce and build around Griffin and Gordon. What player do you guys think will make the best fit for the team? Maybe Gallinari, Prince, or Iggy?
On an unrelated note, if we manage to get CP3 in 2012 I’d poop my pants.
I like wilson chandler
but he’s restricted. Jared Dudley would also fit. Probably best to just invest in Aminu who has the potential to be everything we need. Get the best player we can in free agency at what ever position because our bench really just sucks at this point. Trading for Iggy is gonna leave us more depleted in another position and we are already weak at PG and SF. Prince is good but isn’t a huge upgrade you would like for the money he is gonna want.
wine um, dine um, 69 um
by flightofthegriffin on May 18, 2011 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Something of a PR Nightmare
That’s what it is more than anything. But now they pretty much have to do something this summer with the extra cap room and hope Irving disappoints.
"The need to be right - the sign of a vulgar mind."
by ghost_ride on May 18, 2011 8:56 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
Karma is satisfied
Hey, we jumped up a few spots to get Griffin. Have we forgotten that stroke of luck? I am OK with having a little bad luck in this year’s draft. I’d rather have the luck in 2009 than 2011.
Agree with Steve on the post.
Steve, an idea for another post
I suggest creating a new post and asking everyone who is mad about the BD trade and losing out on the #1 pick to put to writing who they would select. Let’s get these second guessers on record now. Hindsight is always 20/20.
I would
trade the #1 pick this year…to get ANOTHER first rounder next year…..how is that for second guessing?
Do or do not. There is no try.
I would trade the #1 pick this year, the Minny pick next year, Chris Kaman (or sign and trade DJ) and Aminu for Dwight Howard!
Even if that isn’t feasible I wouldn’t draft anyone with the #1 pick this year, I’d trade it for the small forward that we need.
Fire Jasen Powell!
but i think there is no point in this post because it has nothing to do with reality.
i’m glad we got rid of Baron and I’m glad Cleveland got the #1 pick because now Olshey has to prove that it was a good trade and do something with the cap space.
Fire Jasen Powell!
+1,000
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on May 18, 2011 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions
ultimate hindsight trade
- draft pick, minny pick, marcus camby, zbo, baron davis, chris kaman for chris paul and danny granger. Oh wait let’s not trade all that and start irving, gordon, blake, zbo, camby. bench kaman, baron, DJ, aminu, bledsoe (barnes). HMMM WE ARE SURE KILLING IT WITH THE MANAGEMENT HERE THANKS FOR PUTTING ME ON RECORD.
wine um, dine um, 69 um
by flightofthegriffin on May 18, 2011 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions
What we feared
But I have to say it doesn’t bother me at all. The assumption I’m working on, that I don’t see mentioned here, is that if the Clippers had held onto the pick (and Baron Davis, which complicates the equation quite a bit) there’s no way that the #1 would have had their name on it. This is just a matter of Cleveland making moves and needing and deserving a boost and getting one.
Secondly, it’s only a minor boost. If this pick was about getting LeBron, or Griffin, or a clear-cut franchise changing player, then it would be different. I’m in the camp with those comments above that the Clips had their long-awaited stroke of great luck when they got the pick that became Griffin, and that came on top of Gordon falling to them. With those pieces in place (and DJordan falling to them as well), it’s a matter of making the right FO moves and deals.
Which brings us to the Davis trade. It felt right, if a bit surprising, based on BD’s inflated salary and job performance up to that point, especially his lack of summer preparation for the 10-11 season. That failure, along with Kaman’s injury, meant that the Clippers didn’t compete for the playoffs. BD is a better player, and a better fit, than Mo W. and what the Clips got back, but he had injury issues and clearly didn’t earn his pay level. My view of the trade is that it’s similar to the ZBo and Camby deals. They were all very nice, but expensive pieces. None of them provided, as Griffin and Gordon might, the core that makes a team a playoff contender on opening day. BD had the opportunity to do that in October, and he wasn’t prepared. And he even had it before, when he was playing with ZBo and Camby. BD recognized what he had when he was healthy and able to play with Griffin (but then Kaman was out), but it was already too late.
Camby joined a better team that needed pieces, but one that still isn’t competitive to win the west. ZBo was always a great fit at Memphis because of who Gasol is (as opposed to Thabeet, who got shipped out for an expiring Battier), a series of shocking twists at the wings and a maturing Conley. Good for him. I went through the Cleveland airport the other day and shook my head at BD’s misfortunes. Too bad. Coulda been a contender.
Now it’s about FO moves, trades, signings, whatever. Like I said, I’m holding onto the idea that there’s no way this would have happened if this was the Clippers pick. The team has already had superb luck. Now they need to be smart.
by citizen zhiv on May 18, 2011 10:13 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
very positive response. good one too.
I just want this team to realize they need solid pieces, not “superstars”. We have EJ and BG, we just need a solid core to help this team achieve.
I'm a New Yorker born and bred. I support my Jets, Mets, Red Storm and Islanders. I also love my out-of-state Bulls, Clippers, Cowboys & Fighting Irish.
Zhiv you usually are very intelligent with your posts
but CMON MAN
ZBo and Camby are great “pieces” to a team that already has a foundation in place is what I got out of this.
Then you say EJ and BG are great “foundation” players that need “pieces” around them.
You do realize that these “pieces” were around while the Clippers already had the “foundation” in place.
There is no positive way to spin anything that has gone on in the past couple of years in regards to the FO.
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
Blake is the only way out of the Clipper mess
Should he be coming off the bench w/ Randolph starting?
"The need to be right - the sign of a vulgar mind."
Start one of them at center.
“Problem” solved.
by Michael White on May 18, 2011 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions
I always hated how having a glutton of good players
was considered a problem
You think George Clooney has night terrors about “Oh man there are just wayyyyy too many super models that want to ride me.”
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
glut
Glut means an overabundance, a surplus to the point of excess.
Glutton means someone who overindulges, particularly eating.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on May 18, 2011 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions
thanks my vocabulary needs growth
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
ZBO & BD Were among the worst contracts in the league
The Clips did well to get rid of them, though couldn’t factor in ZBO getting in shape and motivated. Theses aren’t the most valid complaints, but I would agree that the Gomes & Foye signings were horible and Olshey & co. Needs to be held accountable.
"The need to be right - the sign of a vulgar mind."
by ghost_ride on May 18, 2011 4:17 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
you know what they could predict from zbo
20 points 10 rebounds
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
yea we still have 2 centers not like we can't adjust if we have to defensively
wine um, dine um, 69 um
by flightofthegriffin on May 18, 2011 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions
It was nice
to turn on the TV to watch the lottery and NOT see Elgin or any other Clippers there for once! Very nice…. Also i’m very happy for NICK Gilbert.
i like ur thinking...but its for all the wrong reasons
elgin hasn’t been there for a while btw..
but a Clipper rep was not there not because we were so good we were in the lottery…
I Am Witness to the 1st BLAKE GRIFFIN Triple-Double! And the 2nd Triple-Double!
This is great
"The need to be right - the sign of a vulgar mind."
by ghost_ride on May 18, 2011 2:13 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
lol Clippers keep on losing lol
The 4th pick and we got rid of our playmaker for a jump shooter. We could of had any big in the draft with the 4th. SMH Oshley keeps on failing.
For what we have issues to fix just like every other lottery team
The team balance won’t work unless we get someone who can create on the team.
we lost the 1st pick...
the Cavs had the 4th pick no matter what
I Am Witness to the 1st BLAKE GRIFFIN Triple-Double! And the 2nd Triple-Double!
huh?
Cavs won the 4th overall pick and would of had that pick regardless of trades
Clippers won the 1st overall pick, which was traded to the Cavs during the Baron trade
I Am Witness to the 1st BLAKE GRIFFIN Triple-Double! And the 2nd Triple-Double!
ow
if irving ends up becoming an all star…
just… wow. painful.
Wanted : General Manager
Responsibilities : Must make mid-season trades to give false hope for next season. Keep the team 10 million under cap at all times no matter whether it improves the team or not. Personally Service Mr. Sterling (dry cleaning, organize appearances at the mall, dispose of dead hookers). Appoint coaches that haven’t ever won anything. Juggle or do magic tricks to entertain at team parties.
wine um, dine um, 69 um
by flightofthegriffin on May 18, 2011 2:01 PM PDT reply actions
KEVIN PRITCHARD IS OUT THERE
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
Hey i'm ok with it because we got rid of people who aren't...
Dedicated to winning like fat boy so if this gives us the flexibility to get someone via
trade or free agency well good. We still have that million dollar minny pick next year.
Looking through this thread...
I’m amazed anyone can find a single good thing to say about trading a good passing, penetrating point guard who seemed to be coming around for a second rate two guard who can’t play defense and including an unprotected pick that turned out to be a number one. A terrible, terrible trade just got more terrible.
This is getting even more irritating.
It did NOT get MORE terrible. You people act like the Number One was assured. Guh! Also, how many people on this blog blasting this trade because of LUCK are the same people screaming for Baron’s head? He had to go, the ping-pong balls bouncing the right way DOESN’T make Neil and idiot or Dan Gilbert, Chris Gant, or David Griffin geniuses.
Consider the flip-side, the Lottery just assured everyone that CLE wouldn’t look like the idiots they were for taking on Baron’s contract for what would amount to be the 8th pick in a historically bad draft.
"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.
by Gordon for President on May 18, 2011 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
you don't get it do you?
the Clips traded for a combo guard (they already have EJ and Foye), got rid of their best playmaker, and got rid of a lottery pick. All to save money.
It doesn’t matter if it was number 1 or not, a top 10 pick has value and can be traded by itself. I broke this down the day after Baron got traded.
Want to save money and not have the cap hold of a pick? Trade this years top 10 to another team for a future first rounder. Problem solved.
Nothing but stupid decisions, only made to save money.
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
A top 10 pick has value...
In this case, the value was in getting rid of Baron Davis’ contract. Do you think teams were lining up to pay him $29M for the next two seasons?
I don’t like the trade, never did, but you’re smarter than this. Don’t pretend that you don’t know why the trade was made.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on May 18, 2011 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Right
On the surface, yesterday just fell very much in line with some people’s agenda’s, but in reality few are still questioning the judgement behind the trade.
Even Plashke and most of the radio honks have the Clippers’ back, that has to tell you something.
"The need to be right - the sign of a vulgar mind."
by ghost_ride on May 18, 2011 4:53 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I'm not pretending I don't know why the trade was made
the trade was made to save money
Adding Mo Williams didn’t help the team at all. I’ll be nice and say it was a sideways move.
But pairing that pick with say moving Kaman, will bring back much more value in return.
That trade was simply just made to save money.
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
Absolutely true...
Olshey’s rhetoric about “salary cap flexibility” is incredibly annoying. The Clips are nowhere near the cap, nowhere near the luxury tax and there is no danger of the Clippers losing one of their key young pieces because they’re financially overextended. We all know Donald Sterling makes money EVERY year… even the terrible, terrible ones. No one, NO ONE knows where the new CBA’s gonna leave the Clips. The Davis-Williams trade was made to SAVE MONEY, same as the Camby trade. The acquisiton of Foye/Gomes/Cook were bargain basement moves trying to pick up undervalued pieces for chump change (deals that failed).
The fact that the Clips pick wound up as a number one is a bit of remarkable luck but the fact that the pick was not protected and the fact that they gave far more than the got is just plain bad management.
The Clips don’t have a good coach, don’t have a good GM, and have a terrible owner. That’s the tragedy. Trading the pick that became a number one is just salt in the wound.
I don’t know if I’ve ever felt worse about this franchise. Ironic, because they have two players who might turn out to be their best ever.
I agree
I think we should be happy because we have Blake Griffin and he’s been all that and a bag of chips. But the LAST year has shown us exactly what we are working against. Inept management that makes bad signings and trades undermines the brilliance of our young core and its hard to place much faith in them in the future to make the correct moves. We used to have the crutch of bad luck, the curse, injuries etc but we could justify it because the Clips never really had that great of a chance of being relevant anyways. But with Blake Griffin you know and expect more and we’ve yet to see the team make any strides towards improving under Olshey. Every move has backfired so far and someone should be held accountable.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on May 18, 2011 6:44 PM PDT up reply actions
You are correct
The Clipper portion of the trade isn’t over as Steve has said. The people complaining about this are the same people who always complain. The FO needs to use the cap space this summer on a good FA. IMO the trade was a good one for the reasons said above, but the FO has to follow through.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Yawn
you are wrong as usual. Many of us praise the team when they do well (unfortunately this doesn’t happen often enough) and point out when they are making a mistake (does happen with alarmingly frequency).
Quick recap of where I stood prior to these moves being made since July.
1. The DVD – I thought it was a super lame presentation and made a joke of the organization, general consensus of the media is the same.
2. Hiring VDN over Casey. Casey is one of the hottest coaching candidates out there now. VDN’s former team is in the ECF without him.
3. Signing Ryan Gomes – Bad signing a tweener PF to start as SF. Was not surprisingly terrible as a SF.
4. Signing Randy Foye – Not a PG and inefficient player. Was unsurprisingly a inefficient player.
5. Traded a unprotected lottery pick to get rid of Baron Davis. The 1st overall pick would be useful in a big trade.
Let’s see what you were right about since July.
Yea, tough call.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on May 19, 2011 4:50 AM PDT up reply actions
No desire to respond to your juvenile self-aggrandizing posts
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
by Jax on May 19, 2011 5:03 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
You have no response
You were for everyone of those bulletpoints. Tell me which of those was a good move for the Clips months later?
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on May 19, 2011 7:03 AM PDT up reply actions
Sorry, I'm not interested in arguing with you.
You seem to be very interested in this topic as you have made dozens of post in each of these threads supporting the notion that the Clips FO sucks.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
LOL
Congratulations, you finally realize you are so hopelessly wrong you can’t even put together a defensible argument.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on May 20, 2011 6:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Swami, that's a lot of good things to say about Baron
I like how suddenly people are fans of Baron Davis. What about all the Big Shots Mo made? I would not classify Baron as a penetrating PG, at this point, Mo is much quicker than he is. Baron liked to dribble the ball around a lot and other PG’s blow by him. We now have a PG who is a much better shooter than Baron. Do both guys like to shoot? Yes.
A pass first PG would be Brevin Knight.
This is going to be my team, and we're going to rise together.
-Clipper Darrell
I'm not a big fan of Baron
But even at the time of the trade, I’ve said it wasn’t a particularly good trade. Baron and Mo are like opposites, Mo much better shooter, Baron much better passer and attacking the basket. Baron may be slower than Mo, but he could get into the paint better (and post up), and was a much superior finisher inside. Not to mention that Mo actually made me miss Baron for his defense- incredible as it seems.
Baron for Mo was simply a cost cutting move, as pointed out, it really depends on how the money is spent. I do feel that Baron is the better player, certainly not worth anything close to his contract, but that’s the price you pay sometimes.
The Clips had to toss in the pick for the Cavs to accept the trade. The fact that the pick ended up as first overall doesn’t made the trade any worse. I wonder if the pick ended up at 3-4 or even 2 if people would be in such an uproar.
the pick hitting does make it worse
the timing of the deal never made sense. People around here acted as if the odds of the pick landed in the top 3 were the same as the PowerBall Lottery. Well it’s not and it surely wasn’t as last night proved. If Irving becomes a perennial all-star as projected we’re all going to sit around and wonder how sad it is that a top flight young PG isn’t the one lobbing it to the Beast. Instead we got a rental in Mo and the wild man Eric Bledsoe as the heir apparent. Bledsoe better turn into the next Westbrook now.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on May 18, 2011 5:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Cost cutting?
BD is not the right player for the team. The team got flexibility and a serviceable guard. Of course they have to spend the money.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Really, you're gonna compare Baron and Brevin Knight?
Baron is better than Mo Williams in terms of the Clippers, because he’s a real point guard. That simple.
Nothing changed yesterday
Evaluate the trade today the same as the day of the trade. YESTERDAY AFFECTED THE CAVS NOT THE CLIPPERS.
When I played Black Jack the superstitious folks next to me don’t understand Basic Strategy. I hit a 10 and bust and the guy next to me complains that I took his 10 and he would have had 21 and it is my fault. NO! NO NO NO NO! I play my strategy around average. Win some lose some, but the long term is based on a set strategy.
You play your strategy between you and the dealer. The guy next door can bugger off. His cards are randomized and my cards are randomized, so our respective strategies even out over time. My cards affect me. My neighbor’s cards affect him.
Olshey made a plan for our future. Yesterday had nothing to do with it. There was only a 2-3% chance of getting the #1 pick, Olshey knew that on trade day, took the risk. Done. Move on. The strategy moving forward was to move on from the BD era to the Blake/Gordon era. We are lucky to have gotten rid of Baron’s contract when we did. He was too unreliable.
So evaluating the trade of getting rid of Baron and opening up money for FA and re-signing core players. I like this trade.
Olshey, please proceed with the rest of your strategy.
To add...it wasn't much of a risk (2-3%). Something incredible just happened.
Proud member of Club FTR. falconPUNCH! for president!
Exactly
I’ll reserve my judgement until next season. If nothing happens…then we can start screaming for Neil’s head.
Proud member of Club FTR. falconPUNCH! for president!
that's so typical Clipper thinking
“There’s always next season”
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
not with the way the management is handling things
Blake Griffin is coming, hide your MBengas
With Blake Griffin
there is always hope. But no man can do it alone and he’ll need more help.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on May 19, 2011 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Argh
I knew this was going to happen. I just knew it. Seriously it was like watching a car accident in slow motion. Well then, if Irving becomes the next CP3 as projected by some then… we will be thinking about the possible Clippers dynasty that never came. Irving, EJ, DJ and Griffin? OH ME OH MY. Or packaging Irving and other assets for a CP3 or Howard? I’m going to go kick a kitten or something.
Like I said from the beginning, the odds of the Clips ending in the top 3 picks weren’t that bad (8.4%). This is only of those “what ifs” that will haunt the franchise.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
Two other things...
First, I’m not sure anyone’s mentioned it, but the rookie scale is gonna be way out of whack next year when Kyrie Irving gets Blake Griffin money. Sterling certainly doesn’t wanna pay money for some of the unknown Euros that will be picked in the top ten. Another fiscal reason to trade that number one. Nevermind that the talent pool is shallow… that marginally talented player is also expensive.
Has Olshey made ANY move that isn’t motivated by salary?
Secondly, and I don’t think anyone’s mentioned is that the owners group has ALREADY suggested that there be another Alan Houston clause… another one year free salary dump. This is a thing that’s viewed as good for the owners/good for the players. It’s only bad for teams like the Clippers who do everything they can to avoid paying too much. But, if it happens, and it seems like it will, then the trade that dumped Baron Davis is even dumber because Baron’s salary goes away like it was never there.
Amnesty clause
I believe the team would still have to pay the player but it doesn’t count against the cap. This really helps the luxury tax teams the most (Gilbert Arenas and the Magic?) since they are getting double dinged for those kind of deals. I’m not sure the Clips would necessarily use the clause as then they’d have to spend the cap space which would be very unDonald-like
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on May 18, 2011 7:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, my point exactly.
It helps the big spenders. You know, those teams that actually try and spend money and win.
Silly winners
its all about losing baby. Yay masochism!
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on May 18, 2011 7:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Amnesty
It’s hard to know what will happen with anything in the new CBA, least of all Amnesty… but I believe the last time (the Allan Houston time) the amnesty was only for luxury tax, not for salary cap. That would not have affected the Clippers, with or without Baron. But yeah, if team’s are allowed to get one contract, any contract, off their books as part of the new deal, it would make what is looking like a bad trade become a complete disaster.
In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd
by Steve Perrin on May 18, 2011 10:22 PM PDT up reply actions
You are right, I am wrong...
The 2005 amnesty clause was for luxury tax only. If they do it again, it will likely be the same. It won’t affect the Clips. It’s impossible to imagine Sterling going over the cap or god forbid, spending into the tax.
Sterling made the call
Olshey is the puppet of Sterling.Sterling was having a heart attack paying Davis. He could not stand 29 million more dollars over the next two years.Sterling did not want Davis to take away the limelight from Griffin.Every time he sees the Kia commercial of Griffin jumping over the car he cringes.Let’s see what he does with the signing of Jordan.If he signs Jordon Kaman will be traded.
I think the lesson in all of this is.....
…take your job seriously ALWAYS, take pride in your work EVERYDAY, treat everyday as a blessing, lead by example, lay off the Krispy Kreme…
or
..you will be traded to Cleveland
BG is filling Staples Center
Baron’s millions go to an all star free agent SF who wants to play in LA with Blake Bledsoe is the next Westbrook
and Olshey a hero.
I may be a bit crazy, but this could happen ya know….
who's that all-star FA?
I’m sorry, players don’t go to teams to be side-kicks to the flavor of the month. Unless said player has led his team to current success, he’s going to a system that is a proven commodity and has had current success. We need to win before DTS and his Clippers becomes a desirable place.
I think we have a better chance to land the number one overall pick in the draft…Oh wait!
i'd have to dissagree with fotm
i think blake will be a bit more than a fad ; )
by Piatkowski fan! on May 20, 2011 10:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Agreed.
But that was a bit of hyperbole. Anyway, I don’t think many All-Stars go finding a player they want to play with. LBJ and Bosh wanted to be on a Super Team that had a player with a ring. Melo made a city choice, not to team up with A’mare. Kobe wasn’t able to get another star to play with him. He got that through trades.
My point is that unless that team has success, it doesn’t matter how great those players are. Ironically enough, the last time I remember that happening was when Brand convinced baron to come here.
I don’t think Griffin has made us a more palpable place to play. Until we have some success, in my opinion, things ain’t going to change.
Star FAs are hard to get
their current team has inbuilt advantages to retaining them. And aside from Lebron the FAs don’t pan out value wise (Boozer, Amare, David Lee, Elton Brand, Baron Davis, Ben Gordon, Charlie V) which makes since because if those stars were worth that new contract then their previous teams would have resigned them. You get your best value on FAs for the sneaky good guys.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
by ClipperChuck on May 21, 2011 6:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Well
I seem to remember some maybe far-fetched but pretty recent rumblings about Kobe moving his locker, Lebron etc… LA’s a desirable place for millionaires, if they can keep their head in the game…lots of NBA players are from LA area. Ya, it may take a winning season but they will line up after that…I am from there too and I’ve seen many notable Lakers in the Santa Monica and Malibu restaurants, they like it here.
So....
Is everyone over this? Are we all cool now? No more rage?
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