MVP Derrick Rose: Volume Shooter?
by lovinglosangeles on May 23, 2011 11:38 AM PDT
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PrintFor some time now, I have been struggling with this issue and want to hear what you guys think or have to say. I know that the reigning MVP Derrick Rose is an amazing player and it is hard to argue with that fact. However, I have noticed, and may be a misperception on my part, that Derrick seems to be a volume shooter more than a true PG. If you compare his statistics to that of Chris Paul's, you see what I am talking about.
Does anyone find himself/herself thinking the same thing about the MVP?
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The Bulls would be better off if Rose gave up four shots per game
For example, yesterday in the fourth with the Bulls gaining ground he drove into Wade, James and one other Heatle when he had like three other Bulls with him on the break. The Bulls did not score on this possession.
I wouldn’t call Rose volume shooter, but he is getting his at the expense of the team in the margins.
This is relevant to the Clippers in the talk of the difficulty in the margins of increasing your PPG at the high end. It may be harder to do(and I am not conceding that it is, but I will run with this to make my point), but if true that illustrates why it is a bad idea. If it is harder to go from 22 to 25 and easier to go from 12 to 15, break the defense down then pass to the guy who was averaging 12. Its great that Gordon was able to increase his PPG, for Gordon’s wallet. For the Clippers it is likely inconsequential.
Boozer, Noah, Deng et al won’t hurt the team by taking one more shot per game. Unfortunately for the Clippers and in Gordon’s defense, dishing to Olshey’s free agents would have probably been the wrong decision.
I think Rose' MVP is more becaise of Tibbs COY
if anything..Rose should be MIP…since he clearly improved this year…
but his value as a player to his team is not so significant. The Bulls look good because of Rose, Rose looks good because of the Bulls….neither would make either look good without Tibbs
though, I’m not saying the game is about coaching or that Tibbs is great….but with the system they are running, the Bulls are a good team now and Rose is just a part of it and not the cause of it. I don’t Rose is making his teammates significantly better (such as a true PG would)
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He's a good player
maybe even great in a relative sense. He’s just playing against a great defensive club against 2 of the best 5 players in the league. The Bulls are still playing great D which is making these games pretty close but at the end of the games the Big 3 for Miami can get buckets against anyone while a more average offensive team like the Bulls can’t against the Heat. The Bulls could use another perimeter threat that can create off the dribble when the defense is rotating but they mainly have spot up shooters at the wing positions right now. JR Smith makes the most sense for them of the free agency pool.
Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.
I don't really get the original post
I mean, I don’t think anyone ever confused Rose with Paul. Rose is a scoring point, and that’s what he does well. I think it’s more of a just a modern interpretation of the position. I’m kinda sad that it seems like none of the up and coming star PGs are the “classic” definition of the position. But at the end of the day, that’s all it is, just a definition.
As for the term, “volume shooter”, I don’t really think of Rose. I think he does average like 20 shots a game, but I guess because half of those are like in the paint, I don’t really think of him as a volume shooter. I think his percentage has dropped off in the playoffs, so maybe it’s just a reaction to his recent play. I think the problem is with scoring point guards (like rose and restbwook) is if you stop their scoring, or get them to shoot less than 40% (like they’re both doing in the conference finals) they really can’t do too much else to help the team.
707 of Rose’s 1597 shots this season came inside of 9 feet. 765 came inside the paint.
When I think of a volume shooter, I think of a guy who just jacks up jumpers all day. Someone like a Jamal Crawford or Carmelo Anthony. Anytime a guy gets 40%+ of his shots inside of 9 feet then he’s not a volume shooter. A guy like Carmelo Anthony (34% inside 9 feet) is, though. Rose has to do everything on that team offensively. It’s quite sad to watch really. That team has zero offensive flow without him. Look at the playoffs as an example. With him on the court, Chicago averages 1.09 PPP on offense and allows 1.01 PPP on defense. Without him on the court, they average 0.98 PPP on offense and allow 1.01 PPP on defense. No one else on that team is a shot creator. I’d rather have Rose do what he does than anyone else on that team attempt to do anything remotely close to that.
By the way, gut feeling here, but I think we see Rose and Gordon team up in a few years. Don’t know where but it’s gonna happen.
Twitter: @FlyByKnite
Rose has to do everything on that team offensively.
This just isn’t true.
When you look at the larger sample of the regular season, the on-off picture is pretty equal. So you would say, yeah but the playoffs. The Bulls went through IND and ATL, who won a combined 82 games this year. Not exactly murderers row. If something changed about not-Rose in the playoffs, my guess is Thibs has done something to make his rotations worse, probably out of fear. The clear answer is its the reduced role of Brewer and Gibson and yes the increased reliance on Deng and Rose.
Rose is choosing to do everything offensively when he has some very, very good help around him. He needs to stop taking the 3 or 4 terrible shots he is taking per game, regardless of where they are on the floor. Driving into three athletic defenders is just as bad as a Baron Davis pujit if you don’t get any points.
Rose isn’t a volume shooter (or scorer), but he is flirting with the label by his own decision making.
The problem is that the Chicago Bulls are a mediocre offensive squad. They’re, quite literally, a middle-of-the-road offensive team. Without Rose, they’d be far worse over the course of an 82-game season and a playoff run. Derrick Rose registered 623 assists this season. 218 of those 623 (35%) came on field goals directly around the rim. 327 of those 623 (52%) came on field goals that came from 16+ feet on the court. They’re basically surrounding Rose with guys who shoot nothing but jumpers. Remind you of anyone? It’s LeBron James in Cleveland all over again. Stingy defense, one guy who has to do everything on offense, and the rest of the group are a bunch of high-energy bigs, defensive guards, and spot-up three-point shooters. Last year in Cleveland, LeBron James registered 651 assists. 303 of those 651 (46%) came on field goals directly around the rim while 274 of those 651 (42%) came on field goals from 16+ feet on the court.
It’ll be interesting to see what happens with Rose as his career progresses.
Twitter: @FlyByKnite
You have criticized the conventional wisdom of how to build a team
Isn’t that what every team does? You have your star, then you surround him with guys who can hit jumpers. Isn’t this conventional wisdom on this very blog about what is needed around Griffin? Color me unconvinced by this criticism. Wasn’t Mo Williams traded for precisely because he fit this mold and in fact came from the mold?
Asik took 91% of his shots inside.
Noah took 71% of his shots inside.
Boozer took 47% of his shots inside.
So you have three guys doing exactly what they are supposed to do, in the paint, when Rose with see fit to give up the ball. Of course they have to get out of his way and vacate the paint as well since Rose is at his best when he is getting to the rim and crashing into people and drawing fouls. So its again part of the situation that Rose helps create. You can’t need to get out of his way and then criticize your PF for taking a 12’ jumper when he’s out there to make room for you.
I’m not saying Rose is bad. In fact he is very good. But he is flawed, and unlike many players he could fix his flaws by doing just a little less. The perceived deficiencies of the Bulls are in some ways created by Rose himself. They score less because he takes a few too many shots, and the bigs have to get out of his way.
/Tangential rant time/
Also, I am assuming you didn’t intend to go very far with it, but no one should compare Rose to Lebron. Its silly that Rose won the MVP. No one in their right might would trade away James straight up for Rose. James is the best player in the league. He does everything. Rose does one thing very well. He isn’t top 5 in assists despite having a far superior team to Nash or Paul or Williams. He has little chance to contribute on the boards like Lebron does. You want to compare Rose to Lebron? Lebron had more assists last year in five less games with his far inferior team than Rose did this year. Rose is a complete downgrade from Lebron in every sense.
Meh, this Rose as MVP crap is just dumb.
I agree with the Rose / LBJ comment - no way Rose should have won the MVP
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
I also agree with the other comments
Perhaps Rose is still immature. His team is good enough to be trusted.
"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.
Rose isn't even the best point guard
this year! let alone the best player.
People say he has no help, will if you ask me his help is a lot more capable than the help Deron Williams had at Utah, or Chris Paul had/has at NO and those guys don’t take near as many ill-advised triple-teamed shots. No, they would’ve found the open man (and the right open man at that) to take the shot.
Dwight Howard or Dirk Nowitzki should’ve won the award this year. I would really go with Dwight here, because the rest of the Magic players seemed to be playing in the D-league half of the time.
Get out of my House!
Dwight had zero chance at the award. People need to look at the history of the MVP award and realize that unless your team wins 50 games or has a .610 winning percentage, you’re not going to win the award. I don’t know what the rules are in terms of linking to other forums or whatever, but I made this post back on March 25th.
http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=11391450#11391450
It explains everything.
Twitter: @FlyByKnite
by FlyByKnight on May 25, 2011 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions
I have a feeling like
with all the players “teaming up” and needing like multiple superstars on one team, the MVP award might start turning into the coach of the year award, in that, it’ll be given to the guy that does the most with the least amount of help. I don’t have a problem with Rose getting the MVP, as it really depends on the definition you want to give the MVP. Rose did get his team the most wins in the East, and you could argue they’d be a lottery team without him. If the MVP has to go to the “best” or “most-skilled” guy in the league, then that’s a different story.
In a similar vein, I wouldn’t be surprised if talks of an “MVP curse” start coming up, in that the guy that wins the MVP won’t win the Championship. As long as the MVP is given to the guy that single handily carries his team to regular season success, I’m not sure they’re ever going to have the kind of post season success than teams with more than one star.
scratch that
bulls wouldn’t be a lottery team in the East without Rose, but might be closer to .500 ;)
Meh, this Rose as MVP crap is just dumb.
How so? Being the best player in the league doesn’t automatically make you the most valuable. If it did, Michael Jordan would have about ten of those sitting at home.
Twitter: @FlyByKnite
Hmm that's a tricky one
maybe the best player should be the most valuable. Kind of like the Bill Simmons trade value guide. Would you trade player A for player B? Who would you pick first if you had to pick one player (for that one year) for your team. People wanted a new MVP to liven up the debate but there’s really no debate on whom the better player actually is.
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by ClipperChuck on May 25, 2011 2:19 AM PDT up reply actions
LeBron, by his own admittance, took himself out of the MVP running when he joined Wade and Bosh down in Miami.
When you play with another top five scorer, you kinda hinder your “value” so to speak.
Twitter: @FlyByKnite
by FlyByKnight on May 25, 2011 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions
Ric Bucher of ESPN
continues to insist that he would rather have Rose instead of LeBron. It’s ridiculous.
James is better in every single facet of the game, and is six inches taller.
Rose is both very good and very overrated at the same time.
But he can sure dunk. Damn!
Do not worry. (Matthew 6:27)
Derrick Rose is Allen Iverson minus the issues
This Bulls team to me looks the same as the ’01 Sixers. One superstar and a bunch of role players. Ric Bucher must be smoking crack if he thinks Rose is better than LeBron, especially after watching LeBron completely shut down Rose these last two games. Rose is a 6-3 shooting guard. I think the Bulls missed Kirk Hinrich who was more of a true PG. It made for a small back court but it was much more effective. Rose is a good kid and good teammate but the Bulls wont get anywhere with him being forced to take 30 shots a game.
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