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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

Clippers vs. Minnesota - Game Preview

2010/2011 NBA Regular Season
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vs.
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8-4

6-8
STAPLES Center
January 20th, 2012, 7:30 PM
FSN Prime Ticket, ESPN, KFWB 980 AM
Probable starters:
Chauncey Billups
PG Ricky Rubio
Randy Foye SG Luke Ridnour
Caron Butler
Ryan Gomes
SF Wesley Johnson
Blake Griffin
PF Kevin Love
DeAndre Jordan
C Darko Milicic

The Back Story:

First meeting of the season. The Clippers won three of four meetings last season.

The Big Picture:

The Clippers just completed their first back-to-back-to-back of the compressed season and they did it without the services of Chris Paul, so all things considered, a 2-1 record in those three games is a terrific result, even if the total point differential wasn't terrific. A blowout loss in Utah is long forgotten after the thrilling last second victory over the defending champion Mavericks on Wednesday. The Clippers are now 7-1 at home and have won seven straight in Staples. The 1-3 road record is certainly a concern, but we'll worry about that another time, with these next two at home. Unfortunately, the latest word is that Paul will miss this game as well as he continues to rest his strained hamstring. Of course in the long run we'd all much rather he miss some games now than come back to soon and cause greater damage, but it's less comfortable going into any game without him. Having Mo Williams back does help soften the blow. Wednesday against Dallas Williams was a difference maker, leading the Clippers in scoring with 26 points on 11 for 15 shooting. The big matchup of this game of course will be Blake Griffin versus Kevin Love. The very different power forwards are both putting up monster numbers this season, and are two of the three NBA players averaging 20 points and 10 rebounds so far on the season (the third is Dwight Howard).

Star-divide

The Antagonist:

Newsflash - the Timberwolves aren't terrible. Since this is the first time in five years or so since that's been the case, it qualifies as news. The Timberwolves are 6-8 on the season, and have yet to be blown out (something the Clippers cannot say for themselves). They are turning into the new "must-see" team, this season's Clippers if you will. Kevin Love is of course a monster, as he was last season. He's still a beast on the glass, but he's now shooting five three pointers a game while maintaining a decent percentage from deep (last season he shot three a game). But the real story for the Wolves is rookie point guard Ricky Rubio -- no one was quite sure what to expect from the young Spaniard, but I don't think anyone expected this. Rubio is eighth in the league in assists per game, and second in assists per 36 minutes. He's also shooting better than anyone expected he would -- over 40% so far from three point range. In addition to Love and Rubio, there is the new coach, Rick Adelman. Adelman has always seemed to get the most out of his teams. His Houston teams always overachieved. There's talent on the Minnesota roster, and Adelman is the man to figure out how it all fits together. Do not sleep on this team.

The Subplots

  • [Note by Steve Perrin, 01/20/12 6:38 PM PST ] According to Ric Bucher, Caron Butler has a hyperextended knee and is not going to play tonight. Apparently he suffered the injury in the Utah game, and that might explain his weak performance against Dallas. At any rate, Gomes will get the start and the Clippers thin bench gets a lot thinner.
  • The 2009 NBA Draft. The 2009 Draft has produced the last two NBA Rookies of the Year. Could it produce it's third in a row? Blake Griffin was the first overall pick, but injured his knee during preseason and missed the entire 09-10 season. That left the door open for Tyreke Evans, the fourth overall pick, to win ROY in 2010 (hey, somebody had to win). Griffin made his debut last season, and was a unanimous choice for 2011 ROY. Meanwhile, Rubio spent two additional seasons playing in the ACB in Spain after being the fifth pick in the 2009 draft, and is a leading candidate for ROY this season. Other candidates will emerge over the course of the season, but for now it looks like a two man race between Rubio and 2011 first overall pick Kyrie Irving.
  • A rich man's Luke Ridnour. I can remember Ricky Rubio skeptics complaining that he was not that much better than Luke Ridnour, who was already in Minnesota. What those skeptics always seemed to ignore is that Ridnour is a pretty nice NBA player. Adelman recognized that Ridnour and Rubio were his too best guards, and for the last four games he's been starting the two of them together. Like the Clippers, the Wolves' guard rotation consists of essentially three point guards -- Rubio, Ridnour and J.J. Barea, a Clipper-killer with the Mavericks last season. So the Clipper guards won't be getting posted up, but they will have their hands full nonetheless.
  • The Minny Pick. The Clippers received a first round draft pick from the Timberwolves ages ago -- back when Kevin Garnett was a Timberwolf and Minnesota was good. The deal was a complete steal for the Clippers: Sam Cassell and a protected first round pick for a signed-and-traded Marko Jaric. The Clippers patiently waited through seven years of restrictions on that pick, and then finally included it in the trade that brought Chris Paul to LA. The pick was perceived as having massive value because Minnesota had been truly bad in recent years and would likely have a lot of ping pong balls in the lottery. Well, with the T-Wolves now playing well, it's looking more like that pick could wind up being in the 10 to 12 range. Still nice, but probably not the first overall (barring some lottery luck for the Hornets). So the Clippers appear to have made a shrewd, if ultimately lucky, move -- they sold high on the value of that pick, leveraging it as part of a deal to get a second superstar to LA.
  • Margin of victory. Among Minnesota's 8 losses are several of four or fewer points and no blow outs. Consequently, they actually have a positive overall point differential at +2.1. The Clippers on the other hand, despite their 8-4 record, have a point differential of just +0.8, owing to a 25 point loss in San Antonio and a 29 point loss in Utah. Of course, those still only count as one loss each in the standings, but if you're a fan of point differential, then you should fear the T-Wolves.
  • Strength of Schedule. But there's a problem with the small sample size of 14 games (12 for the Clippers). The Clippers have the toughest strength of schedule in the league through games of Wednesday, while the Timberwolves are 18th, last among Western Conference teams. Minnesota's last four wins have come against four of the worst teams in the league; the Clippers on the other hand have only played three teams all season with losing records. They've got Minnesota tonight and Toronto Sunday afternoon - these are home games against teams with losing records, and you simply have to win them.
  • Love's minutes. Kevin Love used to be the poster boy for advanced stats. His second season in the league, he had a PER over 20, but coach Kurt Rambis for some reason refused to start him and played him less than 29 minutes per game. Well, he no longer has that problem. This season he's playing just shy of 40 minutes per game, tops in the league.
  • Butler. Through 11 games, Caron Butler had been the picture of consistency, scoring between 11 and 20 points in every game. Then Wednesday night against Dallas he went 1 for 12 and scored 2 points. I suspect he'll have a big bounce back game in this one. I see no reason to suspect that second year player Wesley Johnson can handle him.
  • Barea. Wednesday the Clippers faced Dallas, and were no doubt thrilled not to have to deal with J.J. Barea, who has absolutely tormented the LAC over the years. Unfortunately, the respite from Barea torture was short-lived, as he'll be in town tonight with the Wolves. We'll see if his magical powers over the Clippers extend to another uniform.
  • Love and Griffin. The marquee matchup tonight, the one that ESPN will be talking about and building pretty graphics around, is Kevin Love versus Blake Griffin. In four meetings last season, the two were pretty evenly matched. Griffin scored better (26 compared to 20), Love rebounded better (13 to 11). Of course, Griffin won on the scoreboard in three of the four meetings. The irony is that although everyone will talk of the battle of the power forwards, the two might not even guard each other. Minnesota may want to put the length of Darko Milicic on Griffin to start the game. And though I think the Clippers will start with Griffin on Love (since they don't want Love to be luring DeAndre Jordan too far away from the basket), I suspect that coach Vinny Del Negro will switch Jordan over onto him at points throughout the game, just to give him a different look.
  • Beasley. Michael Beasley has been hurt for a couple of weeks, during which time the Wolves have won four of seven. I'm not sure anyone has said that the team is better without Beasley, but let's face it, everyone is thinking it.
  • DeAndre versus Darko. DeAndre had a couple of good games against the Timberwolves last season. He has an athleticism advantage over Milicic, but Darko is one of the only guys in the league who may actually be longer than DeAndre. Both are talented but inconsistent, and if either can have a big game for their team it could have a major impact on the outcome.
  • Big man rotation. With Brian Cook nursing a sore ankle (and undeserving of a roster spot in the first place, but I digress) the Clippers have mostly stuck with Griffin, Jordan and Reggie Evans in the front court. Solomon Jones played four minutes against the Mavs and recorded a 4 trillion in the box score -- but at least he didn't register an 0 for 5 shooting night. I could also see Ryan Gomes getting some power forward minutes in a pinch. Rookie Trey Thompson has potential, but he still has a ways to go before he's a productive NBA player.
  • The ClipperWolves. Former Timberwolves Ryan Gomes and Randy Foye will be facing their former team tonight, as will Chauncey Billups, though you have to go back to his pre-Detroit days to find Chauncey in a Minnesota uniform. His stint with the Wolves really got his career back on the right track as he was widely considered a bust after being the third pick in the draft. He was playing for his fourth team in four years when he arrived in Minny, but he parlayed starter's minutes filling in for the injured Terrell Brandon into a mid-level contract with Detroit, and the rest is Mr. Big Shot history.
  • The Bench. The Clippers' bench got about 10 times better when Mo Williams returned to the lineup. Beyond Williams, it's not very pretty. Evans is a great rebounded and a good defender, but is almost useless on offense. Gomes is at best solid. And it goes down quickly from there. If the game is close (and assuming Paul does not play) I doubt that VDN will venture far past these three off the bench.
  • From the Urban Dictionary:

    wolve

    the utmost extreme, above all else.

    you are wolve.
    you are lucky if you are as wolve as Lauren and Kelsey.
    you have just been wolved.
    that is so wolve!
  • Get the Timberwolves perspective at Canis Hoopus.

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and the section regarding Gordon being out...

just makes me miss him… Although he is injured right now, he’s injured for another team, LOL

by LJ Hann on Jan 20, 2012 2:10 AM PST up reply actions  

hmmm...

Could have sworn I deleted those. My bad.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Jan 20, 2012 8:16 AM PST up reply actions  

Timberwolves are decent

some of their losses were very tight including that last second alley oop layup to the Heat. Just was I was very worried about when we were holding on to their pick. Granted they’re not .500, but they added 2 top 5 picks and a great coach, and I had to think they had the potential to go .500 this year, which would definitely lower the value of that pick. I was very relieved we got rid of it, although mostly because it helped land a superstar. Way back when (like in November, haha) I thought if the Wolves came out to the start like they have this year though, we’d really have to consider swapping the pick and letting it go for someone like Iggy.

I’m kinda worried about a mental breakdown in this game. Emotional high off of last game’s game winner, and a day off, and against a historically bad team, hopefully they don’t come out flat. I have to think Blake doesn’t think he’s been playing up to par and will try and come out with a vengeance. I think we need to keep DJ more involved in the offense too.

by osamu on Jan 20, 2012 2:21 AM PST reply actions  

Thats better than what we were expecting last year for his rookie year.

I think many of us were expecting 15 points 10 rebs.

Formerly Newtybar. Proud member of Club FTR. falconPUNCH! for president!

by Newton Pham on Jan 20, 2012 8:56 AM PST up reply actions  

probably

but he’s just looked kinda frustrated with himself not making shots, especially FTs.

by osamu on Jan 20, 2012 1:19 PM PST up reply actions  

+1

Biggest thing I noticed is when getting Jordan involved it forces our guys to attack the rim. We all know Jordan isn’t going to post up and beat anyone and as a face up he can only blow by certain bigs if lucky when our guards attack teams will collapse and Jordan will be open majority of the time. In a way its been the type or thing teams used on us to get points.

by KillaClip on Jan 20, 2012 10:43 AM PST via mobile up reply actions  

some questions for my nation..

paul unlikely? where are we hearing anything beyond game time decision at this point? just assuming or is there a link out there?

also some questions for u staples regulars since this is my first live caper game in years

-how early should i show up for warmups and stuff? do they let u close to the court anymore?
-how easy is it to flag down ralph just to say hello? i hear he’s super friendly to fans and id love to get a handshake with him.
-jumbaco?

by shap on Jan 20, 2012 3:52 AM PST reply actions  

In the LA Times

Ben Bolch, in the “next up” brief overview of MIN game says “Guard Chris Paul (strained left hamstring) has sat out three consecutive games and is not expected to play Friday.”

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Jan 20, 2012 8:20 AM PST up reply actions  

I am probably wearing my paranoid Clippers goggles

but whenever I see CP3 walking on the sidelines or coming out to greet the players during a timeout it appears like he is limping. Hopefully it is just from carrying an extremely heavy wallet in his back pocket.

"Great Balls Of Fire, Reggie's Back!"

by PV Mike on Jan 20, 2012 8:29 AM PST up reply actions  

Jasen Powell vortex of injury doom.

He’s out for the season.

Formerly Newtybar. Proud member of Club FTR. falconPUNCH! for president!

by Newton Pham on Jan 20, 2012 8:58 AM PST up reply actions  

But before the Mavs game he was working out with and participating the shot around, was he not?

Also, Ric Bucher had tweeted that “CP3 is champing at the bit but not going tonight, according to a team source.”

It sounded like he’d be ready to go tonight?

by dulciusXasperis on Jan 20, 2012 8:59 AM PST up reply actions  

Bledsoe also says he is ready to play now.

VDN cautiously waiting until begining of Feb.

"Great Balls Of Fire, Reggie's Back!"

by PV Mike on Jan 20, 2012 9:59 AM PST up reply actions  

Maybe the Detroit lean

"Great Balls Of Fire, Reggie's Back!"

by PV Mike on Jan 20, 2012 12:47 PM PST up reply actions  

I believe that the clippers are just being careful with CP3

plus if he doesn’t play tonight that means he gets to heal until Monday, so they can maximize his rest. If we can beat the Mavs without Paul than we can definitely beat the Wolves.

"It's better to be an optimist who is sometimes wrong than a pessimist who is always right"unknown

by bestclipfan on Jan 20, 2012 10:10 AM PST up reply actions  

They are being very cautious with his hamstring issue.

I was looking up other hamstring injuries this year and the least anyone was out was 2 weeks. JJ Barera had it Dec 26 and didn’t play again til Jan 9 I believe. Tomorrow will be 1 week since Paul’s injury date. This type of injury is the type to tweek easily. As much as I’d like him to play now, I’m believing that they are keeping him out because they don’t want him to be in and out of the lineup with this issue all season. If they can completely heal it on the first go round, I am willing to give it time as long as they can stay winning.

by Rakelds79 on Jan 20, 2012 11:57 AM PST up reply actions  

I agree.

I had the Laker game as his earliest return date. So if he plays Sunday even just for 25 min and feels good I’d be happy. I just hope they can win today

by Rakelds79 on Jan 20, 2012 12:20 PM PST up reply actions  

idk if the road things that bad...

Those Ls were from/in spurs jazz blazers the jazz are hot & thats a tough place to play without cp & mo will on a btobthe spurs another good team that was rly hot before manu got hurt blazers at there place eh …i kno alota excuses but could be much worse

by balla131 on Jan 20, 2012 6:26 AM PST via mobile reply actions  

I have watched most of the Wolves games on league pass

and they are much watch TV with Rubio on the floor. It kind of reminds me of watching the Clips last year-very entertaining but often find ways to lose games so far. Rubio has incredible court vision and passing skills, plus his offense and defense is much better than advertised. Not a great defender but has long arms and quick hands for steals.

I expect a fun game to watch tonite as we also have the Blake/KLove “who is the best” side battle.

"Great Balls Of Fire, Reggie's Back!"

by PV Mike on Jan 20, 2012 7:21 AM PST reply actions  

What else in your house do you consider "much watch" tv?

Did you see the new Idol? What about “Toddlers and Tiaras”, that’s much-watch in my house.
Don’t blame it on your phone. I’m done with that haptic, predictive nonsense.

by John Raffo on Jan 20, 2012 8:54 AM PST up reply actions  

I like the Documentary and Sundance Channel

I especially liked the Poetland Documentary. It was eerily similiar to Jonestown.
Also, a great HBO documentary mini series on boxing trainer Freddie Roach starts tonite. As far as boring regular sitcoms, I like Modern Family since The Office “jumped the shark.”

"Great Balls Of Fire, Reggie's Back!"

by PV Mike on Jan 20, 2012 9:11 AM PST up reply actions  

I thought Poetland was off limits.

When was the last time you opened the trunk of your car? Things started to smell funny in the garage? You keep it out on the street now, right? John R’s been missing for at least a month. I’m just connecting dots.

by John Raffo on Jan 20, 2012 9:18 AM PST up reply actions  

Comparative SOS and SRS

I believe it was Steve who first brought the SOS stat to my attention when he used it in a post. If it was someone else I apologize

Anyway, I like the stats and would love to see them put into each game Preview

SOS
Clippers + 2.43 - 1st
T-Wolves (.54) — 21st

SRS
Clippers + 3.18 - 12th
T-Wolves +1.53 — 14th

Clippers are 5 point favorites

by Buddahfan on Jan 20, 2012 7:59 AM PST reply actions  

Whats the latest on CP3?

I want to see him destroy Rubio so bad!!

we’re cheap, like to drink and are pissed off.

WHO WANTS A FREE SHARPIE?? -- Blake Griffin

by ClipperBEAST on Jan 20, 2012 8:01 AM PST reply actions  

Not playing. Still day-to-day.

I’m getting Kaman flashbacks.

Formerly Newtybar. Proud member of Club FTR. falconPUNCH! for president!

by Newton Pham on Jan 20, 2012 9:00 AM PST up reply actions  

Derrick Williams

Averaging

Minutes 18.7
PPG 7.4
RBP 4.1
FG% .398
3FG% .290

About a third of his shots have been three balls

He is averaging on 4.2 PPG in their last five

Not much to see here at this point unless he goes off tonight from beyond the arc. Clippers need to not let his 3FG% lull them into not guarding him when he beyond the arc because he shoots a lot of them, 4.3 per 36 minutes and if he gets hot from beyond the arc tonight he could shoot more than the 2.2 per game that he is averaging

by Buddahfan on Jan 20, 2012 8:10 AM PST reply actions  

Every time I check out the TWolves now

I think, “Thank goodness we traded that pick.” I mean, if we hadn’t traded it, can you imagine all the panicked posting we’d be doing these days? After 7 years of waiting, Rubio shows up just in time to spoil everything. Crap Crap Crap, there he goes again! :-(

As it is, I’m just really looking forward to the game tonight. It’s SO NICE having a true floor general and not having to worry about Minnesota. The absence of Kaman and Aminu also lowers my stress levels.

"i know huh........freakin clippers man.....its like a wild ride rooting for this team....gotta love em....(sometimes) lol" In GrIfFin We TrUsT

by SilverClip on Jan 20, 2012 9:10 AM PST reply actions  

Ditto
, I’m just really looking forward to the game tonight.

One of the things that I hated most about the Lockout was no Friday night Clippers.

DJ vs Darko. – They don’t come much bigger in the NBA now that Shaq is on TNT LOL

by Buddahfan on Jan 20, 2012 9:38 AM PST up reply actions  

Yep

except for his shooting which is only at about 40% this season.

His minutes are way down this season from the last two. It could be because of his awful shooting. A FG% of 40% from your Center just doesn’t cut it.

by Buddahfan on Jan 20, 2012 10:04 AM PST up reply actions  

Wolves fan here

Darko is a decent defender, but as he has been at every team he’s played on, he is super moody. He also refuses to simply dunk the ball and usually throws up an unsuccessful left hook, even when he’s alone under the basket.

Expect to see Pekovic get a bit of burn tonight, as Darko hasn’t been getting many minutes at all.

90% of the crap I say on here is sarcastic

by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 20, 2012 2:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Agreed - that gamble by the FO paid off bigtime

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jan 20, 2012 10:03 AM PST up reply actions  

The Clippers are wolve

That’s an awesome Urban Dictionary item.

The Wolves are actually kinda wolve too, and I love the comparison to the way that the Clips were a must-see team last year. Rubio and Love make for some compelling viewing.

The DJ-Darko matchup is the key I think, and DJ is at home. Lately DJ has been showing a penchant to throw the quick outlet pass, perhaps the sweetest basketball science (though Lob City is wolve). Love is the precocious young master, the direct descendant of Unseld and Walton, and with a Rubio and Ridnour backcourt he might be in good shape to be the GOAT. It’s a skill could be a big addition to DJ’s game, and it would be great if he were to work diligently at it.

by citizen zhiv on Jan 20, 2012 11:11 AM PST reply actions  

From what I remember last season, Blake pretty much outplayed Love in all the games head to head and the Clippers won 3 out of 4. Blake hasn’t been explosive offensively in a few games and this might be one of his big nights. I hope we keep the intensity on the boards. Since the lakers game we’ve out rebounded all of our opponent except one game that was dead even. It should be a fun game.Rubio makes exciting passes, but sometimes he looks terrible out there. We’ll see what he has today.

by tenkaistar on Jan 20, 2012 11:39 AM PST reply actions  

Rivalry and Matchups

Looking forward to a long rivalry and matchup between CP/Griffin vs Rubio/Love. Should be very exciting, entertaining. The TWolves has amassed a lot of talent and a very solid coach so they should be improvement. Derrick Williams has a ton of talent and should develop nicely.

by wilriv21 on Jan 20, 2012 12:00 PM PST reply actions  

As expected, Williams is suffering from rookie growing pains

One really good game followed by a bad one.

"Great Balls Of Fire, Reggie's Back!"

by PV Mike on Jan 20, 2012 12:04 PM PST up reply actions  

I like Derrick Williams but he's a 4 and they already have Love.

It seems like they are trying to make him a 3 but that’s just not his game. It’ll be interesting to see how things play out with him.

by chrisd on Jan 20, 2012 12:08 PM PST up reply actions  

I thought you were talking about

Mo Williams and was like, What?" Then I realized it was Derrick. My mistake.

by lovinglosangeles on Jan 20, 2012 1:59 PM PST up reply actions  

Bummer

MadelynBurke

Del Negro: Chris Paul unlikely to play tonight

by dulciusXasperis on Jan 20, 2012 12:35 PM PST reply actions  

I would almost rather he didn't play tonight

Sunday’s game against the Raptors should be a good tune up game before he gets even more rest until the Wednesday game against the Lakers

"It's better to be an optimist who is sometimes wrong than a pessimist who is always right"unknown

by bestclipfan on Jan 20, 2012 12:57 PM PST up reply actions  

True,

but would have been cool to see him go head to head with Ricky

by dulciusXasperis on Jan 20, 2012 1:51 PM PST up reply actions  

Without a doubt

Hope this isn’t a lingering injury.

by dulciusXasperis on Jan 20, 2012 2:37 PM PST up reply actions  

Team day to day injury is different

our day to day injury usually means one week or longer.

But I rather see CP3 plays with 100% and go undefeated the rest of the season.

Patriots, Clippers, Angels fan since 1980

by Pats fan in CA on Jan 20, 2012 4:40 PM PST up reply actions  

Regarding the Minnesota pick

it doesn’t matter if it was the first overall pick. I’d trade the 1st overall pick, EJ, Kaman and Aminu every time and not look back.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 20, 2012 1:32 PM PST reply actions  

me too

It’s the same monday morning quarterbacking as on the Baron Davis-Kyrie Irving thing. This time, at least so far, the subsequent breaks are going the Clippers way, but it doesn’t impact the original trade. In the case of Davis, it was a bad trade regardless, in the case of Paul, it was a good trade regardless.

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. - Elwood P. Dowd

by Steve Perrin on Jan 20, 2012 1:44 PM PST up reply actions  

Baron Trade

You were lukewarm-leaning towards negative when the trade came down. Now bad. Obviously the CP3 trade would not have gone down without the BD/Irving for Mo and Cap Space(Caron Butler for 3 yrs) trade. As long as Caron stays healthy, it’s not a horrible trade.d

"After the first six minutes I was heavily winded"-Andrew Bynum

by oasisman on Jan 20, 2012 2:19 PM PST up reply actions  

Agreed

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jan 20, 2012 3:00 PM PST up reply actions  

Why is it obvious the CP3 trade doesn't go down?

Explain how the CP3 trade was impacted at all by Baron/Mo. Clips had Bledsoe, Mo and Billups on the roster already and still traded for another PG.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 20, 2012 3:43 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't get this at all

Without the benefit of hindsight on the ping-pong balls and the amnesty provision, why was that a bad trade regardless? Mo Williams circa 2011 is a more productive player than Baron Davis circa 2011, and there was cost savings both short- and long-term. Without that extra cap room you probably don’t get Butler and you definitely don’t get Billups. That was a classic example of selling high, during a rare stretch where Baron was actually on the court and giving the illusion that he could perhaps remain healthy despite his lack of an offseason work ethic. Giving up a #8 pick in a crappy draft to unload a horrific contract AND get back a productive player still seems like a no-brainer in the opposite direction to me.

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Now living the good life in Lob City, CA.

by boltsfan21 on Jan 20, 2012 2:37 PM PST up reply actions  

well

Baron was as good if not better than Mo at the time of the trade, neither guys have been particularly durable the last few years.

It was the 8th pick in the draft with a 8% chance of being in the top 3. The cap savings were 4.5 million, the Clippers would still have cap space to sign a SF and pick up Billups. Note the Clips actually had about 3 million in unused cap space before they matched DJ’s deal.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 20, 2012 3:37 PM PST up reply actions  

also

Baron was better than Mo in 2011. Obviously 2012 Mo has been better since Baron hasn’t played yet.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 20, 2012 3:45 PM PST up reply actions  

So many half-truths and untruths that I hardly know where to begin

Baron was as good if not better than Mo? In what, the couple-month stretch he was able to actually play after showing up to camp out of shape and then immediately injuring himself? I didn’t say anything about “better.” I said Mo has been more productive the last 2 years, and that is absolutely an unquestionable fact, because he’s been on the court way, way, way more. They traded BD during the brief moment in which he was actually playing. He was unable to play both before and after. That’s the very definition of selling high.

Then there’s the bit about still being able to sign Billups. Outright falsehood. If they only had 3 million in unused cap space before they matched on DJ, that means they would have been over the cap by 1.5 million if they hadn’t saved the 4.5. They bid 2MM for Chauncey. So that means, at the time of the bidding, they would’ve only had 500k, which is below the vet’s minimum, which means they would’ve been unable to bid.

Sorry the facts don’t fit into your irrational everything-Olshey-did-before-the-CP3-trade-was-bad worldview. It’s a shame neither you nor Jax can ever back down from your extremist viewpoints to see the shades of gray in your unceasing, unyielding black-and-white war of words.

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Now living the good life in Lob City, CA.

by boltsfan21 on Jan 20, 2012 3:58 PM PST up reply actions  

Productive and Games Played

Mo has been more productive the last 2 years, and that is absolutely an unquestionable fact, because he’s been on the court way, way, way more

Wins Produced

Baron Davis:
2009-2010- 4.65
2010-2011- 2.35
Total Last 2 Years- 7.00

Mo Williams:
2009-2010- 5.24
2010-2011- <0.81>
Total Last 2 Years- 4.43

Games Played
Baron Davis:
2009-2010- 75
2010-2011-58
Total Last 2 Years- 133

Mo Williams:
2009-2010- 69
2010-2011-58
Total Last 2 Years- 127

Sources: Basketball Reference Pages for Baron and Mo and Wins Produced for 2010 and 2011

by Michael White on Jan 20, 2012 4:08 PM PST up reply actions  

Ah

beat me to it.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 20, 2012 4:11 PM PST up reply actions  

If he was dogging it

he still outplayed Mo

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 20, 2012 4:27 PM PST up reply actions  

Bingo

That right there is why I wanted BD out..so much talent that he let waste away

by MikeV7297 on Jan 20, 2012 4:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes

BD could have gone down as one of the greatest point guards of his era IMO..on par with Steve Nash. For whatever reason, he just never put it together..it’s unfortunate..so to answer your question, the trade was for lesser pure basketball talent.

by MikeV7297 on Jan 20, 2012 11:28 PM PST up reply actions  

In re-reading I don't think Boltsfan literally meant the last two years

Seems like he means last basketball season and this basketball season..where putting in this season’s stats completely validates his argument…I could be reading that completely wrong though

by MikeV7297 on Jan 20, 2012 4:25 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm looking at the time of the trade

so at that point Baron was more durable up to the trade.

If you have a crystal ball that let’s you see when injuries hit you should become an advisor to every sports franchise, you’ll make a killing.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 20, 2012 4:29 PM PST up reply actions  

That one didn't take a crystal ball

One guy works to stay in shape. The other doesn’t. We sold high on the latter to bring in the former.

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Now living the good life in Lob City, CA.

by boltsfan21 on Jan 20, 2012 4:30 PM PST up reply actions  

Baron was in shape in 2009-2010

he could even dunk again.

Post-Lebron Mo thought about retiring, showed up out of shape as well and was injured for awhile until the all-star break.

We didn’t sell high, we used a unprotected lottery pick to create cap space.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 20, 2012 4:34 PM PST up reply actions  

There you go with 2009-2010 again

As if the following year never happened.

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Now living the good life in Lob City, CA.

by boltsfan21 on Jan 20, 2012 4:37 PM PST up reply actions  

Well 2010-2011

happened to Mo as well. And both guys were injured in 2010-2011. And Baron was more productive in 2010-2011.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 20, 2012 4:51 PM PST up reply actions  

+1

Keep it up

by KillaClip on Jan 20, 2012 6:45 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

And P.S.

At the time of the trade, the Baron defenders were using their historical stats-based arguments, while the dump-Baron crowd made the point that, even though he had managed to get back out on the court, he still couldn’t be trusted because of his lack of work ethic, which makes his ongoing struggles with fitness/injuries more likely. Now you’re still making the same argument, despite pretty clear evidence that our fears were not-even-remotely unfounded.

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Now living the good life in Lob City, CA.

by boltsfan21 on Jan 20, 2012 4:34 PM PST up reply actions  

I can say the same about how the long shot lottery pick

ended up being 1st. This was just as likely as Baron being injured before Mo.

And we can even go into the amnesty discussion to since that’s another consideration when the trade was made.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 20, 2012 4:36 PM PST up reply actions  

SOOOOOOO Not True

The pick being #1 was an extreme longshot. Nobody here ever said the word amnesty. MANY, MANY, MANY of us foresaw what would happen with Baron, because it was freaking obvious at the time the trade was made.

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Now living the good life in Lob City, CA.

by boltsfan21 on Jan 20, 2012 4:38 PM PST up reply actions  

Wrong

I know I mentioned amnesty, I know SP did as well. It happened in the last CBA and teams were talking about it since 2010.

The pick being 1st overall is a long shot, being top 3 isn’t. 8.4% isn’t bad odds (its the same odds of the team with the 5th worse record has of getting the 1st pick). A top 3 pick has a ton of trade value.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 20, 2012 4:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Dude give it up. It was clear as day there would be a new amnesty clause.

And even CLEARER it would never be an option for the same owner that refused to pay a MUCH smaller amount for a certain coach to go away.

"Buckle your seat belts, folks. This one's going down to the wire." -The inimitable Ralph Lawler.

by Gordon for President on Jan 20, 2012 6:37 PM PST up reply actions  

It can happen

DTS did buy out Cassell. I wouldn’t be surprised if they amnestied Gomes in the summer if they needed the cap space.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 20, 2012 7:20 PM PST up reply actions  

27million

and DTS is still a businessman, you can convince him the money being used on X player can get you into the playoffs which equal more ticket sales, tv revenue etc etc.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 21, 2012 1:51 AM PST up reply actions  

Yup

Going back to 2009-2010 has nothing to do with who has been the more valuable asset since the trade.

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Now living the good life in Lob City, CA.

by boltsfan21 on Jan 20, 2012 4:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Woah slow down buddy

in 2009-2010 Baron played 75 games, Mo 69
In 2010-2011 Baron and Mo both played 58. Baron actually missed fewer games to injury (he took a personal leave when his grandmother died).

So yea, Baron has been more productive the last 2 years.

I said SF (not necessarily Butler if he wanted 8m a year), they could have spent 5-6 million and had money left on a bid for Billups.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 20, 2012 4:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Who said anything about 2009-2010?

Why not go back to his days with the Warriors? Yes, I used the shorthand in my follow-up post, but in the original post I clearly said Mo Williams circa 2011 v. Baron Davis circa 2011. The two relevant seasons are last season and this one. Confuse the issues all you want: Mo has been reliable for the Clippers and worked his ass off during the lockout. Baron showed up out-of-shape every year and can’t even play right now.

And nice subterfuge with “SF but not necessarily Butler.” Then who? Though you can’t bring yourself to admit that he’s been key to this year’s team, at the time of the signing you definitely conceded that he was the best available option. Now you’re hanging the still-could’ve-signed-Billups thing on finding another comparable small forward for less? Weak sauce, my friend.

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Now living the good life in Lob City, CA.

by boltsfan21 on Jan 20, 2012 4:24 PM PST up reply actions  

Actually I didn't concede Butler was the best option

I said well they could have done worse. AK was the better option of the over 30 crowd. And Butler has been solid but a lot of guys can fill his role and maybe do better (and at a cheaper contract).

We’re evaluating the trade when it happened so 2012 is irrelevant if anything. At the time of the trade Baron was both the more productive player and the more durable player.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 20, 2012 4:31 PM PST up reply actions  

At the time of the trade, Baron had showed that his lack of work ethic would lead to more trouble down the road

Turns out that view was correct. That’s the problem with basing all of your judgements SOLELY on stats. Common sense sometimes prevails. Baron’s subsequent issues were easily predictable, and in fact many of us predicted them.

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Now living the good life in Lob City, CA.

by boltsfan21 on Jan 20, 2012 4:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Baron played really well for the Cavs last year

they actually won a lot more games than anyone expected to close out the season (which hurt their own draft pick which ended up being 4th).

And Baron’s injury isn’t necessarily because he’s out of shape, in fact most reports is he lost considerable weight in the off-season.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball/knicks/d-antoni-anxiously-awaits-vet-guard-davis-1.3462668

Does he look fat to you?

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 20, 2012 4:41 PM PST up reply actions  

Yup, you're so right

Don’t know why I couldn’t see it before. I’d much rather have Baron Davis instead of Mo Williams right now. Heck, then we could’ve easily lost to Dallas, and gotten blown out by Minnesota! In fact, the whole Minny game could’ve been just like the last 6 mins after Mo got kicked out! Yippee!

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Now living the good life in Lob City, CA.

by boltsfan21 on Jan 21, 2012 10:07 AM PST up reply actions  

That's hindsight

Of course I rather have Mo RIGHT NOW since he’s actually played so far in the 2011-2012 season. But you can’t reliably predict injuries thus making the Mo-Baron trade a bad one. If Baron wasn’t injured right now and Mo still missed 4 games to the foot problem what would you be saying?

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 21, 2012 12:53 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes you can reliably predict injuries

Older guys with no work ethic who don’t work out in the offseason and show up to camp out of shape every year are more likely to be injured. This is the issue most of us had with Baron, and we were right. For once, just admit it.

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Now living the good life in Lob City, CA.

by boltsfan21 on Jan 21, 2012 2:44 PM PST up reply actions  

Baron didn't show up out of shape every year

and he’s been as durable as Mo for the entirety of their careers. Mo’s played over 70 games twice in his career.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 21, 2012 4:33 PM PST up reply actions  

Whatever

Lazy Baron has a bad back. We were right. You were wrong. Get over it.

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Now living the good life in Lob City, CA.

by boltsfan21 on Jan 22, 2012 9:50 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm surprised you think that the BD trade wasn't phenomenal for us

Note that Gilbert turned around and burnded $30M by amnestying the guy. If he thought BD was so bad when the trade was made, do you think Gilbert would have done the deal? I think he really thought BD actually had something left.

And look at BD now – he hasn’t played one game yet this year.

"[Fans are] not technically a lot of times savvy. They don't understand and they don't weigh issues the way that [I] weigh them."
Mike Dunleavy, Sr.

by Jax on Jan 20, 2012 3:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Because SP knows basketball

Gilbert never cared about Mo or Baron, he wanted a 2011 draft pick to kick off the rebuild.

In his mind he paid $10 million for the unprotected lottery pick (the difference between Mo and Barons guaranteed deals). He didn’t want Baron helping them win MORE games this year because they want a higher draft pick (of course the Cavs are surprisingly near .500 now).

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 20, 2012 3:41 PM PST up reply actions  

Question CC

In your determination if the trade was good or not or you thinking the Clippers got the first pick and had Kyrie or are you just assuming they would have more then likely got the 8th pick? How does this factor into your idea that they still would have made the CP3 trade? To me, if the Clips had Baron and Bledsoe they might not have even drafted Irving. They may have gone after Derrick Williams.

by Beasel on Jan 20, 2012 4:36 PM PST up reply actions  

4 part answer

1) I knew there was a real chance (8-10%) the Clips ended up with a top 3 pick. I said this the second the trade went down and the Clippers didn’t/couldn’t protect the pick

2) Kawhi Leonard. He seemed like a good fit for the Clippers and was projected to be available in the 7-9 range

3) Timing. There was no reason to make the trade in February. Clips had played well in January, Blake and Baron at the dunk contest, can still trade Baron on draft night once the lottery order was determined

4) Amnesty Clause. Was known that this was likely to be in the new CBA. It made salary dumping Baron somewhat unnecessary.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 20, 2012 4:45 PM PST up reply actions  

Not sure on all those

No way were the Clippers going to protect the pick. If they would have protected it (lets say top 3) and then the pick ended up there, the Cavs would have then gotten the rights to Minny pick. Too big a risk given its value.

I don’t think the trade is possible after the season. Obviously if the pick is top 3 the Clips don’t make the trade. And i’m not sure the Cavs go for it if the pick is number 8. Plus you have to remember to match the salaries the Cavs threw in Moon. Without him available how do they even the salaries? I don’t think the Cavs had another player the Clippers were going to take on for the 11-12 season. They wanted the cap space.

I do agree with you in that even without the trade the Clips still make the deal for CP3. Oshley had said all along that they were going to use the pick to go after a superstar. Even with Baron, amnesty or not, they weren’t going to pass up on Paul.

And finally, why the hell are we still talking about this?? We have Chris FREAKING Paul. Baron or Mo, it doesn’t matter. Lets get back to important things like how much Foye, Cook(,) and the Lakers suck.

by Beasel on Jan 20, 2012 5:14 PM PST up reply actions  

The trade is possible after the season

Stephen Jackson, Maggs, Udrih etc got traded. It would have been interesting if big market teams would look to trade for Baron knowing they would likely be able to amnesty him in a few months.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 20, 2012 5:51 PM PST up reply actions  

Because Chuck's not interested in much beyond proving he's smarter than Olshey and Jax

While Jax isn’t interested in anything other than proving Olshey is the bestest GM in the whole wide world. The truth is that Olshey has made some good decisions, some bad decisions, and some that were likely the result of simply not having any better options. But shades of gray will never fit into some people’s black-and-white narratives, so we keep having to see this strident, dogmatic bullshit over and over and over and over and over again.

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Now living the good life in Lob City, CA.

by boltsfan21 on Jan 21, 2012 10:15 AM PST up reply actions  

I agree with this except

I don’t care about Jax and his comments, he just has to respond to his comment providing zero analysis to back it up.

I agree with your Olshey analysis, I just choose to break it down by seasons. 2010-2011 was awful. 2011-2012 is much much better.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 21, 2012 12:55 PM PST up reply actions  

But you always ignore the realities of the situation

In 2010-2011 we were still the same old Clippers. We weren’t any sort of a destination. Given the choice, better players would’ve chosen almost any other team, and so to get those same players who would’ve had to overpay, if they were available to us at all.

I’ve seen you give Olshey an F grade for that offseason, and I think that’s ridiculous. F would’ve been signing Outlaw, or overpaying Childress even more absurdly than he’s currently overpaid in order to pry him away from Babby and Nash. Olshey didn’t do anything horribly stupid that offseason except giving an extra year to Cook, and even that was hardly crippling. Many NBA GMs do incredibly dumb deals all the time, yet Olshey avoided the temptation. If you tempered your criticism closer to reality - that he really deserved a C or C for 2010 — then I’d agree with you wholeheartedly. But I can’t help but feel that you always have to be strident about this just to prove that you were right.

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Now living the good life in Lob City, CA.

by boltsfan21 on Jan 21, 2012 2:55 PM PST up reply actions  

There's no way 2010 is even a C

that would mean average.

At best it would be a D.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 21, 2012 4:37 PM PST up reply actions  

You're soooo right as always

At least in Fantasyland, where the GM of the pre-Blake Clippers could just choose any player he wanted on a piece of paper and they would automatically agree to sign.

Proudly enduring the pain since the days of Bill Walton's foot.
Now living the good life in Lob City, CA.

by boltsfan21 on Jan 22, 2012 9:52 AM PST up reply actions  

Baron for Billups

as it turned out, it was like the Clippers traded Baron Davis to the Knicks for Chauncey Billups plus Mo Williams of Cavs, without paying attention to the news in off season.

Patriots, Clippers, Angels fan since 1980

by Pats fan in CA on Jan 20, 2012 4:54 PM PST up reply actions  

Still have to admit

it’d hurt a little bit if it was another #1 pick. I have to say I would be watching Minny’s record all year, and there would get tiresome of all the commentary regarding the pick, and questions whether we should trade it, etc. I remember when the trade went down it was just a weight off my shoulders not having to root against Minnesota, and knowing that we finally turned it into something tangible, rather that just an asset, which we would still be talking about it’s value and if we should trade it.

by osamu on Jan 20, 2012 3:09 PM PST up reply actions  

Looks like the game will be on ESPN

I kinda miss Milph, it feels like haven’t heard them for weeks, but the Leaguepass always show the National TV if it is possible. I like Hubie though, who has been the commentator for our games.

by Pawn on Jan 20, 2012 4:13 PM PST reply actions  

Uh oh

Caron doubtful tonight. That’s not good at all. More Gomes

by Rakelds79 on Jan 20, 2012 5:21 PM PST reply actions  

yikes

that might explain the sub par play in the last couple of games.

"It's better to be an optimist who is sometimes wrong than a pessimist who is always right"unknown

by bestclipfan on Jan 20, 2012 5:25 PM PST up reply actions  

Now he is listed as questionable

https://twitter.com/#!/MadelynBurke/status/160533377529819138

"It's better to be an optimist who is sometimes wrong than a pessimist who is always right"unknown

by bestclipfan on Jan 20, 2012 5:28 PM PST up reply actions  

hope he can give it a go

without doing more damage. I have to think we’ll see the 3 guard set a lot if he can’t.

by osamu on Jan 20, 2012 5:42 PM PST up reply actions  

I think its the schedule

and he’s turning 32 soon. This schedule isn’t kind on the older guys. Guys like Blake and DJ can play for days on end right now.

Help us Altered Beast you're our only hope.

by ClipperChuck on Jan 20, 2012 5:52 PM PST up reply actions  

yea they said it was

hyper extended knee in the Utah game, so played Dallas with it. Was it the same knee he had surgery on? I hope it’s nothing serious, and will be back by the Laker game. Need him on Kobe.

by osamu on Jan 20, 2012 6:33 PM PST up reply actions  

Don't like our chances without Butler

This isn’t your typical Wolves team. They’ve given legit teams a run for their money.

by dulciusXasperis on Jan 20, 2012 6:38 PM PST reply actions  

Not really we should still be okay playing at home

"It's better to be an optimist who is sometimes wrong than a pessimist who is always right"unknown

by bestclipfan on Jan 20, 2012 6:56 PM PST up reply actions  

but RUBIO!

Jets, Cowboys, Mets, Islanders, Bulls & Clippers

by Xfactor26 on Jan 20, 2012 7:09 PM PST up reply actions  

will be tough

Griffin has to go nuts or we play lockdown D

by KillaClip on Jan 20, 2012 7:11 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

the only silver lining of missing Caron Butler

is that the TWolves don’t have a good SF. Wesley Johnson isn’t the answer and I’m fine with Gomes on him. We need a big game from our guards and DJ again.

by chrisd on Jan 20, 2012 7:16 PM PST up reply actions  

DJ needs to hang near the hoop and grab the low hanging fruit

by wilriv21 on Jan 20, 2012 7:18 PM PST up reply actions  

GOMES IS STARTING

FUDGE!

Jets, Cowboys, Mets, Islanders, Bulls & Clippers

by Xfactor26 on Jan 20, 2012 7:44 PM PST reply actions  

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