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Clippers 112 - Lakers 96 - Pre-season

As you know, I did not allow the fact that I neither watched nor listened to the first five pre-season games dissuade me from providing post game analysis.  You really can't tell a lot about a game from a box score, but I didn't let that stop me.  So I am quite pleased to be able to write about a game that I actually watched.

Having said that, it's still tough to take too much away from any pre-season game, particularly one in which the Lakers second best player did not play, and their starters did not play in the second half.  Pulling away from Sasha Vujacic, Chris Mihm, VladRad, Coby Karl and Mo Evans is not really worth getting too pumped about.

Nonetheless, I was still pretty excited with what I saw:

  • Al Thornton!  This is probably the first time I've seen Al Thornton play live.  I mean, I probably caught a few minutes of an FSU game on ESPN last season, but I frankly don't remember the guy.  How did this guy - the leading scorer and runner-up for POY in the best conference in college basketball, with athleticism that is off the charts, and an NBA three point stroke - how did he fall to the Clippers at 14?  I mean, I know the draft was deep, but COME ON!  The word of the moment in the NBA always makes me laugh - scouts and analysts used to talk just about size; then it was length; a few years later they threw in handle; the last couple years the new word has been motor.  I've heard a couple guys criticize Al's motor, but I sure didn't see it last night.  He's active on defense, he LOVES going to the basket and he goes after every rebound.  On one play last night he committed a brutal over the back trying to get a follow dunk - and the guy he tried to jump over was Chris Kaman!  I've got your motor right here!  Sure, I've seen him in one game, and he won't make 4 of 5 threes all the time.  But the guy is an offensive force, and appears to want to work hard on defense, which is half the battle.  His pre-season numbers can't be a fluke - they've been too consistent.  He looks like the steal of the draft right now.
  • Corey Maggette - 22 points on 9 shots in 24 minutes.  Truthfully, I didn't think he looked that great - he was just Corey.  At any rate, it's not like he was making shots I didn't expect him to make (with the exception of that three).  But as long as he's getting to the line (12 FTA's) and not turning the ball over (2 TOs), he will put points on the board.  
  • Speaking of threes, Citizen cabezadekunckle's Diary had several salient observations, including one about three point shooting.  I've long been of the opinion that the Clippers needed more, and with Thornton, Dickau and even Ross making threes last night, the difference between last season and this is significant.  Last season the Clippers could only put two real threats on the floor (Thomas and Mobley) - only two other guys in the rotation would even attempt a three, and they both started the season ridiculously cold from distance (Cassell and Maggette).  Korolev and Singleton weren't on the floor enough to matter.  We know Dickau is legit from deep (40% on his career) - if Thornton is for real, that's double the real threats.  If Maggette, Cassell and now Ross can shoot it with confidence, they don't have to make 40% - over 30% will do - suddenly you can put 4 guys on the floor at a time who can stretch the D if you need them.  The Clippers literally could not do that last year.  
  • Specific to Ross, we've already referenced his supposedly increased range.  2 for 2 from three in a single game doesn't prove anything.  But I honestly believe that as long as he is WILLING to take that shot it will help the team.  And of course that corner three is not much longer than the jumpers he stuck last season.  He looked perfectly comfortable out there last night.  And he played his usual terrific defense on Kobe in the first half.
  • Continuing through Cabeza's notes, the team has now played 6 out of 8 pre-season games.  You can't read too much into minute distribution, but that game sure didn't bode well for Korolev and Diaz (the presumed final cuts).  With Tim Thomas not with the team for personal reasons, eleven guys played non-garbage minutes.  Diaz only got into the game because Dickau fouled out in the final minute (and presumably Cassell and Knight were already icing their 30+ knees) and Korolev got the dreaded DNP.  The fact that Josh Powell got a DNP certainly surprised me as well, but as far as I know his contract is guaranteed and I he's gotten a lot of praise from the coaches throughout camp and pre-season - he's not going anywhere.
  • The Lakers defense stinks - ess-tee-eye-en-cay-ess STINKS!  Dan Dickau runs a shuffle cut off the ball 25 feet from the basket and gets an uncontested layup?  And twice in the fourth quarter, on the EXACT SAME PLAY, Al Thornton got a wide open, check your watch, have a cup of coffee, check the wind direction, three - with nobody even running at him.  Let's see - high pick and roll, if Vlad leaves Thornton to take Dickau, what happens next?  Drew?  Vlad?  Anyone?  Buehler?
  • Jordan Farmar was the ONLY bright spot for the Lakers.  It sure looked like he was their best option at the point based on last night.  Fish was solid, but Crittendon and Vujacic were invisible at best.  At first I wasn't sure if Farmar was that good on offense or if Dickau was that bad on defense (they happened to come into the game about the same time in the first half).  And certainly Farmar did most of his damage against Dickau.  But it was more that that.  Who knows if he can do that consistently, but he was just terrific.
  • Other than the D, which may have had more to do with Farmar's O, Dickau looked great.  He ran the team well, made open shots (which we knew he could) and recorded 5 assists.  Unfortunately for MDsr he's going to have a tough choice at the point, at least until Livingston comes back:  offense (Cassell and Dickau) or defense (Knight) - pick one coach, because you can't have both.
  • Cat Mobley was quoted in the paper recently as saying that his elbow felt better than it has in years after he had it scoped this summer to remove some debris.  I thought it was just talk until I saw him play last night.  Not that he looked unstoppable or anything (he played fine, and racked up six assists including a beauty that led to a Maggette dunk); but I almost didn't recognize him when he went on the floor.  Why?  He didn't have his elegant long sleeve covering his arm.  I think he's worn that every game he's played as a Clipper.  I thought it was part of the uniform.  He must indeed feel better.
  • Paul Davis started at the four against the Lakers big bigs (Brown and Turiaf) and looked great.  What exactly is the weakness in this guy's game, because I didn't see it last night.  He was active on defense, rebounded well, ran the floor, and made open shots out to 18 or 20 feet.  And as we've already observed, he's a great passer for a guy his size (5 assists last night).  He probably doesn't have the lateral quickness to guard the best 4s in the league, and he may not have the size against the biggest 5s...  but I'd be willing to find out, because he does a lot of things really well.
  • And then there's Chris Kaman.  From the lefty hook on the first possession of the game that went in and came back out, I had a bad feeling.  He is among the best in the league at making the move but missing the shot.  The difference between his 53% shooting in 05-06 and 45% in 06-07 is literally one of those shots a night.  One more of those shots stays in, and he's among the league leaders in field goal percentage.  And then there was the cross court pass he threw directly to Mo Evans.  Evans was barely paying attention to the play - he had to catch the ball or risk injury.  That's another bad thing where Kaman could possibly lead the league - brain fart turnovers.  On the plus side, I must say, I was encouraged that Chris tried to dunk three times (he finished one and got hacked on the other two) - see, good things happen when you finish strong.  But he only finished one other move all night.  The one he finished illustrated very well why he received a $52M contract.  How many guys his size can make the DWade spin move through two defenders?  The guy has skills.  Why won't his shots go down?
  • Finally, let's talk a little about up tempo.  In six games, the Clippers are averaging 104.5 points per game and have scored no fewer than 97.  Of course the opponents have all been up tempo teams as well, with the exception of Portland, but still.  The Clippers fast break last night was not Phoenix, nor even Denver.  They're not sprinting up the floor, kicking the ball ahead and spotting up behind the three point arc.  What they are doing is getting five guys to run a controlled break - when it's there, they try to finish it, and both Thornton and Maggette will thrive filling lanes in this system.  More importantly, they are using the increased pace to get the ball entered into the post more quickly.  Even if there is no numerical advantage, if they can get Kaman established on the block early, he'll get better position and have more time to work before the double arrives.  This is something I ranted about last year - they would walk it up as MDsr called the play, barely cross the timeline in 8 seconds, and struggle to make the entry pass with more than 10 on the shot clock against a dug in defense.  In that situation, if option one doesn't pan out, you're up against the shot clock by the time you kick the ball out of the post.  So even if it's not a track meet, I think it makes much more sense to push the ball.  I hope they continue after Brand's return, because he'll benefit greatly from getting the ball in good post position early in the clock.

Let's be clear.  That Lakers defense last night would make anyone look good.  In this case, they made almost everyone on the Clippers look like All Stars on offense.  Kobe was a non-factor and didn't play in the second half, Odom didn't play, Walton barely played, etc. etc.  They didn't put up much resistance.  But they still put ostensible NBA-talent on the floor, and the Clippers destroyed them.  3 wins and 3 losses in the pre-season is nothing to get too excited about.  But the individual performances last night?  I'll allow myself a little excitement there.

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Aaargh
Just bumped the wrong key by mistake and lost a pretty substantive post.  Covered all the obvious topics, nice to get a win over the Lakers, Thornton, and I had just finished considering Q Ross, and was wondering about going back in the time machine to last year to try Maggette/Ross with Mobley (apparently injured all last year) coming off the bench.  And then poof--

Have to try again later--

by zhivclip on Oct 22, 2007 12:33 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

It's a little too easy to lose stuff...
There's a new version coming before the end of the year supposedly.  Hopefully it will not be so easy to lose your work.  

by Steve Perrin on Oct 22, 2007 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Uh huh
Okay, second attempt, some of which may be shorthand:  that was an extremely satisfying weekend.  Losing on Thursday was helpful, as it focused the team.  Beating the Lakers is satisfying, no matter how or when.  And the Lakers folded the Kobe tent fairly early because they didn't have any real response to the Clipper attack.  Kaman/Davis and Williams/Patterson withstood Kwame/Turiaf/Bynum/Mihm/Radman/Cook rather expertly.  Without Jordan Farmar, who played a fantastic game, the Lakers would have really been blown out.  

With no further adieu, Al Thornton.  Have to wait until regular season before saying hallelujah in all caps.  But my main observation:  I think Thornton is EXACTLY the guy that Dunleavy wanted Maggette to be last year.  2nd quarter scoring in bunches.  Have to see if he can evolve towards going to the basket and getting to the line (like Maggs--but as a rookie he won't get calls), but in the meantime being a legit 3 pt threat might just inspire the Nation towards a true resurgence.

Q Ross hits 2 3s.  Kobe has 7 turnovers in 16 minutes.  I'm beginning to entertain the idea of Q Ross starting, but I have to think about it.  I worry it would prevent Maggs and Thornton playing together.  Why not try Maggs/Ross last year?

Maggette.  Here's the thing that nobody is saying:  what's it going to be like when he has a good game?  He's playing well, but he's still only getting 3 or 4 baskets a game, and he's scoring close to 20 points every night, in about 22 minutes.  What happens when his shot is falling and he gets 10 baskets or more?  What happens when he has a significant advantage over his defender?   Maggette is going to spend an ungodly amount of time at the free throw line this year.  Other teams are going to hate the Clippers--and that's exactly what you want.

My man Paul Davis.  Heh--see what I was saying?  I think Kaman and Davis are complementary.  They're both real rebounders.  They both run the floor.  Davis can hit the perimeter shot, Kaman does his Kaveman spins.  I liked the idea of starting Davis and playing him 5-8 minutes and bringing Thomas off the bench, and after last night I like it even more.  But what does Dunleavy think, that's the question.  Thomas missing the weekend for personal reasons was a blessing in disguise as far as I'm concerned--the Clips play well and get a couple of nice victories in his absence.  Thomas is best when he comes in off the bench like Radman did in spring 06.  We'll see--but I have a sneaking feeling that I could get very frustrated about this.  At any rate, with Thomas out at least we got to see Kaman/Davis sooner, rather than later, and it was a good look.

Kaman wasn't really okay, but he still seems to be on the upswing, and that's the kind of game you can live with if it's on the low end of his production over the course of the year.  I think he was 11/8 and 12/8, so the goal is to see him at 15/10 sooner rather than later, and then get on the high side of that.  You're right, if he could just make that one extra shot or two, he'll be right there--but he needs a breakout game and then to fall back to 12-14/10 as his averages.  At least he played the extra minutes last night, just staying out there, and Sac and GSW should be good games for him--GSW isn't exactly playing at their running/gunning playoff best right now.

But the big thing I think is the potential strength of the Clippers 2nd unit.  Thornton is a big part of it, but Patterson and Knight/Dickau are big pieces, along with Davis/Thomas and Ross/Mobley.  A big test for Dunleavy is going to be how comfortable he can be playing Cassell, Thomas, and Mobley somewhat limited minutes.  Cassell seems to be in a good place, knowing he can come out and kill some teams in the 1st quarter (you were so right about that 1st quarter statement game), and he's always going to be available down the stretch.  Against Tony Parker, Nash, Baron Davis, Iverson, Chris Paul, Mike Bibby and Deron Williams we'll probably see Brevin Knight early and often.  And it'll be interesting to see how Dickau fits in, but he's going to get some minutes I'm sure, especially if you think about the rotation with Knight hawking some of these top PGs--Dickau will take minutes against 2nd teamers.  Let Sam pick his spots.

I know it's not only way too early but just plain nuts to think about what happened with Phoenix when Stoudamire was out for a year, but after this weekend the 20 wins look pretty good and the bustmeter might already be in the shop.    

by zhivclip on Oct 22, 2007 1:15 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Cautiously Optimistic
Nice to see Thornton.  He can score the rock.  However, he's a rookie so theres' much to be learned.  I would disagree with zhiv that Thornton is who MDSr wanted Maggette to be - he doesn't really pass the ball.  There will be growing pains on defense.  And don't forget this is the preseason folks.  Save the giddiness.

The problem with Kaman isn't whether he scores but rather how he looks on the court.  I like Steve like the fact that he went aggressively to the hole at times.  However, why he can't hit a 2 footer is beyond me and is troubling.  

Davis looked ok but he's a backup player at this point.    

by Jax on Oct 22, 2007 2:24 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Stern but Fair
C'mon Jax--live a little.

First of all, I dispute your niggling 6th man contention:  the fact that Maggette was just going to bull ahead and score points and use his athleticism to make plays is exactly why Dunleavy wanted Maggs to be the 6th man.  Not passing was one of MD's excuses for why Maggette wasn't starting, and so was defense.  My point is that Thornton's embodiment of all of these qualities, both good and bad, makes him a remarkable facsimile of who Dunleavy thought Maggette was at the beginning of last year.  So Dunleavy has now pretty much got the guy he wanted to come off the bench, and by some miracle Maggette is still on the team and the primary option, and he has improved in the areas Dunleavy wanted.

But you're right to a certain extent:  it's not that big a deal.  It's good, but yes it's still the preseason and you'll let us know when it's okay to be giddy.  And if the bustmeter isn't already in the shop let's say we put it in the trunk and are driving around with it, just waiting for a free moment to drop it off.

"Davis looked okay but he's a backup player at this point."  I suppose I could let this pithy comment take itself apart somehow, but figuring out Paul Davis has been a zhiv crusade for a while now, so I have to strike after a solid outing.  Of course Davis is a backup player.  He's a backup to Chris Kaman.  He's a backup to Elton freaking Brand.  But you want to know who is a backup player--Tim Thomas, that's who.  And being a backup doesn't mean that you can't be good.  Tim Thomas is a very good backup player.  In fact, the Clips have a whole bunch of very good backup players (grizzled vets and rookies)--Thomas, Thornton, Davis, Patterson, Ross, Knight, and  Dickau, maybe even Powell.  All of those guys can play, but none of them are true starters, I don't think.

I just happen to believe that Davis complements Kaman better in the starting lineup, and that Thomas may be a better, more effective bench player than Davis, although Davis should be able to stay busy as Kaman's backup in the rotation.  Davis is going to rebound, defend and pass first, and that would allow Thomas to come in and spread the floor a little, and do his thing.  Thomas also seems to be a little bit free-spirited and loopy, qualities already in large supply with Kaman, while Davis seems focused and earnest and might be a steadying influence on Kaman.

As good a debut as Kaman/Davis had last night, with Thomas out it raised a couple of questions.  The backup to Kaman/Davis was Williams/Patterson.  Let's say Thomas was available and MD wanted to try Kaman/Davis (unlikely).  He sends Thomas in for Davis (instead of Patterson).  Who would he send in for Kaman?  Patterson, sliding Thomas to center?  Williams?  Or does he pull Davis early and then send him back in for Kaman?--that's asking too much of Kaman in terms of staying on the floor.  One way to work it is to bring Thomas in for Kaman, but then you're overcommitting to Davis.

Hmmm.  Looks to me that this is heading towards where I end up not starting Davis.  I guess he's a backup player at this point.      

by zhivclip on Oct 22, 2007 4:19 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

i get so excited
after watching a real game.  i fully expect the clippers to be a lot better than people are picking.

by ralfo on Oct 22, 2007 6:37 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Al Thornton
I know it's just pre-season ect............

and this guy can play.

Nice jumper, nice release, nice arc, nice results.

Plays hard. Great attitude.Goes to the rack .

Scoring almost 20ppg.

I think we will be better than most expect and he will play a big part in our success.

by 69knicks on Oct 22, 2007 7:14 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

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