Thoughts on Team USA
Before we start declaring all of Team USA's issues a thing of the past, please bear in mind that wins over Venezuela and the Virgin Islands don't count. They don't really even come close to counting. Here's how nameless these opponents were: in his pre-tournament team previews, Chris Sheridan's mentioned only one player for Venezuela, David Cubillan of Marquette, and he did not play against the US; he mentioned Raja Bell as the Virgin Islands only NBA player, but Raja is not playing either.
Of course this entire tournament barely counts. The only team in the field other than the US to advance to the round of 16 in last year's World Championships is Argentina, and they are playing without four starters and several key reserves (they'll still be pretty good, but not their best). Sure, Brazil, Puerto Rico and Venezuela qualified for the Worlds last year, but in international basketball, the difference between the top teams and the rest is vast - similar to the difference between the USA in 1992 and everyone else. There aren't 16 really good teams in the world, let alone 24. So the fact that none of these teams made it to the final 16 only a year ago (and let's face it, this isn't the same Argentina team) doesn't speak well of the level of competition.
One could argue that it's positive just for this group to be playing together, but it's almost as likely that it's detrimental to be facing such soft competition. Again, just looking back at last year's worlds, Team USA played one style of basketball in the preliminary rounds and they were successful doing so. But in their very first challenge, Krzyzewski panicked, changed his rotation, didn't adjust to the pick and roll, and lost the game. In the knockout format of these tournaments, it's better to find out what you really need to work on in pool play. If you go into the single elimination phase over-confident as was the case in Japan, bad things can happen.
Let me be clear. I think this Team USA is terrific. They will win this tournament, and if they take these 12 guys to Beijing, they should win the Gold Medal there. They've addressed two of their biggest issues, at point guard and outside shooting, but problems remain. Much of my confidence in this team hinges entirely on Jason Kidd, and to a lesser extent Kobe Bryant; Kidd being the consummate point guard that you need in these tournaments, and Bryant being simply so good that he can score any time he wants to. But, of the two, there's no question that Kidd is the more important to Team USA's ultimate goal. But by relying so heavily on the point play of Kidd and the one-on-one heroics of Kobe, Colangelo and Krzyzewski are glossing over some of the biggest problems. Where is the game plan? Where is the offensive continuity? And most importantly, what happens if Kidd can't play in Beijing?
I would have serious qualms about a team of Kobe, LeBron, Melo and Wade in Beijing, even with a terrific pro like Chauncey Billups at the point. Kidd is the essential element, at least until the leadership of Team USA gets some bollocks. It's fairly obvious that nobody on the sidelines is going to tell these guys that they have to subjugate themselves to the team ethic, leaving it up to Kidd to manage the situation in on the court. He can handle it. I'm not convinced that Billups can, and forget about Williams and Paul and Hinrich.
Since Jerry Colangelo took over the team with grandiose plans of competitive tryouts, a three year commitment from participants and role players on the roster, nothing has really changed with the 'Dream Team' process. By my reckoning, here is the complete list of players that have been 'cut' in Colangelo's tenure: Adam Morrison, JJ Redick, Luke Ridnour, Bruce Bowen, Kevin Durant and Nick Collison. Not surprisingly, there's not an all star on the list. Sure, Gilbert Arenas was essentially cut, his injury in 2006 being a face-saving ruse for all involved. But let's face it - that didn't work out so well either. The list of players ignoring their supposed three year commitment just continues to grow, as they wish either to avoid the embarrassment of being cut or benched again, or more likely, refuse to participate in the farce any longer - I mean, did anyone really expect Shane Battier to make the team at the expense of Kobe or LeBron or Carmelo?
Coach K's comments about Collison were particularly ludicrous last week.
This close to making it? You added him August 14th and cut him August 21st. There were no other cuts in between. He was cut the first chance you had. Great job, Nick! Why did they even bother adding the guy?
And as for continuity, another supposed goal of the Colangelo plan, this 2007 team has exactly 3 players on it who competed in 2006. The same number of repeats from 2004 (pre-Colangelo) to 2006. (I guessed last week that the number would be four, but Chris Bosh withdrew with plantar fasciitis in the interim.)
If you include Collison we're now up to 33 players on the official list (although I believe they have moved JJ Redick onto the select squad that scrimmages against them). What happens if all those players show up for 12 spots next year? Injuries and apathy have done most of the dirty work for Colangelo and Krzyzewski so far. But what happens if all these guys say, "Hey, Beijing would be pretty cool?"
By my count, there are 14 tier one stars on the list - guys who have made multiple all star teams. Eight of them showed up for work in Vegas, and unsurprisingly they are all on the current team. Those eight are Kobe, LeBron, Melo, Kidd, Billups, Redd, Howard and Stoudemire. Now, what happens if the other six super stars (Wade, Brand, Marion, Bosh, Pierce, and Arenas) show up for the tryout for Beijing? And I'm not even including tier 2 players like Joe Johnson, Jamison, Odom, Paul, Boozer and Deron Williams on this list, and obviously we know that the role players like Battier and Hinrich and Prince and Chandler have no chance. Frankly, that could be the best entertainment from Team USA up to and including Beijing - watching what Colangelo does if everyone shows up.
In the final analysis, if the team wins gold in Beijing then Colangelo will be lauded, despite the fact that he abandoned his 'plan' almost before he hatched it. Kidd and Bryant et al may simply be good enough to get it done. But the irony is Colangelo was right all along. Team USA would in fact be better off with a real team, instead of a collection of All Stars. So why won't they put that team together?
A couple days before the tournament, Coach K hadn't decided on a starting lineup, but the one thing he knew for certain was that Kobe, LeBron and Melo would be there. Why? The two most difficult positions to fill on an NBA roster are point guard and center, but those guys don't play those positions. Moreover, Melo isn't anywhere close to a power forward, but Coach K plays him there anyway. If you were building a 'team' you would NEVER play those three guys together - forget the fact that there's only one basketball - they just happen to play two positions. It's not really rocket science. Chris Sheridan put it quite well in a column last week:
And what happens when Wade is healthy? Is he yet another starter? Now you've got four mega-super stars who play two positions. Sure, you can play Melo at the 4 and play Wade or LeBron at the 1; but why would you? You said you wanted a team, right?
Like I said, it's a non-issue in Las Vegas. There simply isn't a team there that can compete with them, not even Brazil or Argentina, each reduced to two NBA level players for this tournament (Brazil has three if you count Tiago Splitter). But Spain and France and Argentina and others are going to show up with all NBA rosters in Beijing, and then what?
In case you missed it, Team USA lost their final scrimmage to their sparring partners - a group of 8 NBA players who are all good, but not nearly as good as Pau Gasol or Manu Ginobili or Tony Parker. If this team can lose to Al Jefferson, Channing Frye, David Lee, Devin Harris, Jason Kapono, Aaron Brooks, Jeff Green and Andre Iguodala, aren't there still problems?
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Carmelo
His WP48 of 0.130 was just a little above average and he just might be the worst defender on the Nuggets. How is this guy considered a lynchpin of...anything?
Why is this so hard? Start Kidd, Redd, Kobe, Chandler, and Howard (each having a better WP48 than Carmelo) and let each dude do what he does best, with most of those being THE best at what they do.
They are winning, but from watching the entirety of the Venezuela game, they are definitely beatable in this incarnation if they faced real competition.
Carmelo is garbage.
Carmelo is actually best suited for intl. ball
Kobe creates a huge matchup problem for the world. Nobody will be able to guard him, and I believe he is capable of playing suffocating defense, which is what this team still lacks. I do feel that his presence on both ends of the floor will be the difference in team USA bringing back the gold.
Kidd at the point is a big help, but I do think that Paul or Williams (or the potential of Shaun Livingston) will be ready by summer '08. The first two guys are rapidly getting better, especially Deron.
The post positions are a problem. I am disappointed that Duncan and KG are not participating on this team. Amare is not a traditional post-player, and Chandler brings nothing to the offensive end. I think the PF spot is EB's if he is healthy by summer. He was effective in his limited minutes on Team USA '06. Hopefully Howard (or Oden) are ready to be dominant centers.
The outside shooting has been addressed with Redd and Miller. I even hear Reggie Miller is available, and I'm sure TNT would give Cheryl (the best BB Miller ever) a leave of absence to lace em up. Outside shooting is key in this tournament.
And then there is the defense. Team '06 got butchered by the infamous pick and roll of Greece. You would think that guys like Amare and Deron Williams, who make a living running the PR, should be well suited to defend it, but that is not entirely logical. EB is effective at coming out and staying with his man. JKIdd and Chauncey are also superb defenders as PG's, so hopefully Coach K is addressing this. I love Tayshaun and Marion here, too.
Now the question is, of all of these players, how do you get it down to 12?
Kobe, Melo and LBJ are locks, so the wing is pretty much settled.
PG Play is vital. I like Kidd and Deron Williams, whose size and strength will be a nightmare for defenders. Plus he can shoot it.
Down low, I like EB, Amare, Howard and one more center, Oden if he's ready, or Chandler (though I would prefer KG, and Duncan to go with Amare and EB.) Bosh and Boozer are good, but play no defense.
3 spots left: Michael Redd, Shaun Marion and DWade.
So the final roster is:
First Unit:
Kobe
Kidd
Howard
Carmelo
Brand
Bench:
LBJ
Wade
D Williams
Amare
Oden
Redd
Marion
by mp on Aug 25, 2007 9:41 AM PDT reply actions
Yes, Carmelo is well-suited to the int'l game
That's the conventional wisdom, for sure
I agree he is a better shooter than Lebron and Wade, but my choice was to start Redd and slide Kobe to the 3. Offense isn't the problem. Its defense, and based on the performance against Venezuela, rebounding. Chandler solves these problems without really hurting you elsewhere.
Adjusting to deal with the other teams sounds downright...Dunleavyish. Through two bigs out there, pack the paint, and make them deal with us.
I quite agree
by mp on Aug 25, 2007 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Not a fan of Melo...
The NBA marketing machine is clearly having an influence in all of this. Why are we playing Carmelo out of position? Because Melo, Kobe and LeBron MUST start per NBA dictum.
But there's some other weirdness going on here as well - Coach K is watching something that we're not watching it seems. Against Greece, while getting demolished by the pick and roll, he went small (smaller than he started even); consequently, time and again guys like Hinrich were getting switched onto screeners like MBFGC with no shot blockers at the rim to help. Elton Brand and Chris Bosh and Dwight Howard have the athleticism to show on the pick and roll - it seemed obvious to me that the team needed to go big to at least block some shots.
Coach K has had great success at Duke quite obviously. I've been wholly unimpressed with him thus far with Team USA. Of course, why would we think that a guy whose used to coaching 19 year olds would be able to tell NBA all stars what to do? It would be a tough gig for Phil Jackson. No one since Chuck Daly has really been up to the challenge. Larry Brown asserted his will at the EXPENSE of victories. Most others let the players dictate the action, leaving it entirely up to them to win or lose. Like a said... it's a tough gig.
by Steve Perrin on Aug 25, 2007 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Many factors played into
Second, as you've noted, we didn't defend the pick and roll well. Part of it was the players in the game, part of it was the unfamiliarity with the int'l rules as mentioned in a previous post and part of it was the lights-out three point shooting of the Greeks. Watch the game again, their shooting was amazing. This prevented us from playing zone, which would have stopped the pick and roll cold.
UNlike some others, I happen to like Carmelo's strength and rebounding. I'm surprised to hear that he's a poor rebounder for a three. I'd like to see his stats.
I am also not a fan of Coach K (aside from being a Bruin homer). He gets all the calls in the ACC based on reputation. I remember an interesting quote from him following the Greek game. He was genuinely surprised that the Greeks were good and admitted he didn't know anything about any of them. The Greeks were well-known in int'l basketball and in this day and age our coach cannot just ignore the good opponents.
06-07 Rebound rates for random 3's
Carmelo Anthony - 8.9
Corey Maggette - 11.5
Lamar Odom - 14.5
Gerald Wallace - 11.6
Bruce Bowen - 5.5
Its not that he's awful. The best way to describe his rebounding is probably...average. The problem is we are taking an average rebounder as a SF and sticking him at the 4 when we have a potential all-time great rebounder in Chandler (20.7 Rbr) getting the least minutes on the team. I didn't watch the whole Canada game yet (my new living room was delivered in the middle of the game wtf), but the spots I saw indicated again that team USA gives up alot of offensive rebounds chances with Melo at the 4.
Any else wonder if Dalembert is wondering why the heck he is doing this?
Um
Last year, Carmelo averaged 29 ppg, 6 boards and 4 assists. Those are pretty good numbers. He shot 48% from the field, 81% from the line, and had 1.2 steals. He also got to the line 9 times a game. Overall he's 11th in the league for SFs, behind Marion, J Smooth, Butler, Artest, and some others who didn't play all that much.
The question is whether we should put an extra scorer on the court to try to impose our will and play quicker man to man defense to counteract the three point games of the Euros or use someone like Chandler, et al on the inside. I think Carmelo is a pretty strong 4. Sofo is a rather unique player. There aren't that many huge PFs in Europe. Obviously Coach K believes in the former. I would disagree that NBA marketing is the critical factor here.
In additoin, you've got to look at the Nuggets
I think we all agree
I favor starting him with LeBron coming off the bench.
Actually, what the hell does it matter who comes off the bench? As long as the rest of the world doesn't watch tape of the Clips-Nuggs series, Carmelo is going to romp.
by mp on Aug 26, 2007 12:51 AM PDT up reply actions
Average rebounder for a three...
The fact that he plays alongside Camby and Nene certainly impacts his opportunities, but there's another way to look at that. Last year when the Nuggets had Nene AND KMart hurt, they started Reggie Evans, a massively limited player (and notorious crotch grabber) instead of sliding Melo over to the 4. If he's good enough to start for Team USA at the 4, what is George Karl doing with Reggie Evans?
Anyway, Carmelo is a transcendent offensive player - just beautiful. I only wish he did more to help his team win. I'm probably holding him to an unfair standard.
by Steve Perrin on Aug 26, 2007 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Sorry...
by Steve Perrin on Aug 26, 2007 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Melo dropped 25 on Canada
We are fortunate to have a coach and player (Q) who take pleasure in getting inside his head.
But the dude can score the ball, and in this intl. style of play, he is shining. Coach K's decision to use him as a four is stupid. But for anyone in ClipsNation to suggest that he shouldn't even be on the team is, ahem...silly. Let's not be blinded by our emo.
Also, despite his seemingly fragile psyche, Anthony has hit something like 9 out of 12 buzzer beaters over the last few years. That is a much better % than Kobe the punk.
His lack of rebounding may, as I think Jax said, have something to do with Camby and Nene, and the Nuggs fast break style.
by mp on Aug 26, 2007 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions
He can be on the team
The Brazil game showed it well, and they are only a second tier team and without Varajao. Carmelo couldn't stop Splitter/Nene from doing whatever they wanted in the 1st. It wasn't until Carmelo went to the bench in the 2nd that USA was able to crack it open. Then the depth wore them down. Kobe was able to shut down Barbosa and that was probably a large part of the difference.
I haven't seen anything here that indicates to me that the 08 Olympics is in the bag, and if Kidd and/or Kobe misses next year, another bronze is a serious threat.
Was anyone else furious when Prince went down and they went on and on about how this is the danger of playing for Team USA. WHAT ABOUT BRAND? WHAT ABOUT EB?
Funny
He did
3 of his rebounds were off his own misses near the rim on fast breaks. Not there is anything wrong with that, but it hardly indicates rebounding prowress.
Compare to Splitter's performance of 60% shooting which was basically all in Carmelo's face. When Carmelo was on the bench, Splitter couldn't even catch the ball to start the offense. Surely the great USA can come up with someone who can both score a reasonable total AND stop lowly Tiago Splitter? Or no? You really believe in your heart that Carmelo at the 4 is the best we can do? Or are you just being difficult? Because when it comes to the top tier teams, USA will need a reasonable stopper and team defender at every position, and so far Carmelo has fallen flat on that end. He needs to score 20 every game just to keep from being outscored by his opposite.
Anyone on Team USA could be scoring. Scoring is boring.
My opinion is
One thing for sure is that this will be an interesting international tournament.
Why?
Why? That's probably the least informative way to look at the situation. You described it best yourself in your Maggette example. Per game stats is out with AOL internet and dogfighting. Only practiced in the darkest and most backward of places.
There are 10 players on a basketball court. That mean's knowing nothing about basketball, out of 100% chance to get a rebound, we would expect each player to have a rebound rate of 1/10 or 10.0. But we do know some things about basketball so we can say that we would expect guards to rebound a bit less and forward and centers to rebound a bit more to be performing up to expectations. So for a forward to come under 10.0 means he is doing less than his part on the boards. He isn't just battling Nene and Camby. I wouldn't really expect him to take their boards away. But less than 10 means he isn't getting any from the other team either and the OPP are probably taking away some of his and getting second chance points. Not good.
A team has to retrieve the ball before they can put thier scorers punch to use, and team USA has no shortage of scorers. I'd rather have a little more on the retrievers side.
Odom's rebound rate has been pretty much steady since he left the Clippers. Last year wasn't some anamoly. It is an interesting point though. I'd start Odom at the 4 over Carmelo for Team USA. If I can't have Chandler/Howard or Chandler/Amare, I'll take Odom at the 4.
Another comparison might be Luol Deng. He played with rebounders in Chandler and Sweetney two years ago and still managed to post a Rbr of 11.4. And its not like Corey is battling slouches in EB and Kaman for those boards...
One major reason is
Second, I would need to know something more about what goes into the estimates before relying on such statistics. Say what you want about per game stats, but for those in the NBA who are starters such as Carmelo, and who play significant minutes, boards per game may not be perfect stats but at least they are not based on subjective factors such as estimates.
Third, apparently you are conceding that Odom plays the 4 and thus his rebounding averages are irrelevant to this determination. If as you indicate you'd rather have Odom than Carmelo play the 4, I would ask for the basis for your opinion given that Carmelo, unlike Odom, hasn't been playing the 4. Again, I would submit that Carmelo will have more boards playing the 4 than he did playing the 3. He's also a far better shooter than Odom as well as a far better clutch performer.
Fourth, if you have ever studied Carmelo's game you would know that he's very quick and a good anticipator and jumper. He's also very strong. He is adept at getting offensive rebounds when he wants to or is called upon to do so. In last year's playoffs he averaged 26 ppg and 9 boards per game. Over his NBA career (4 years) he's averaged 7.2 boards a game from the 3. He's also a winner. In his only year in college, Carmelo won the National Championship for Syracuse. His avgs. were 22.2 ppg during that freshman year and 10 rebounds per game (the highest boards per game avg in the nation for freshmen). I doubt that he would have averaged 10 boards a game for the best colleget team in the country if he is only an "average" rebounder.
Bottom line, Carmelo is a good clutch player and a good rebounder. He may not be your prototypical power forward, but it seems to me your criticism of Carmelo is misplaced. If Coach K wants to play Carmelo at the 4, take it up with Coach K, not Carmelo. I for one think that the strategy is sound for international ball. I'd rather see the big three on the court together.
Thinking about Coach K's offense
Roflcopter
Second, the word estimate doesn't have anything to do with guessing or anything at all subjective. The math is there for the debating. You would know this if you read up on how the stats are calculated.
Third, I am conceding no such thing. I didn't watch the Lakers that closely but for his career his numbers remain the same and he is generally considered a 3. I wrote this but you chose to ignore it. See the First and the Second. Still doesn't explain why he is outrebounded by Maggette or Wallace or Deng...or are you "conceding" that he isn't actually a top-shelf rebounder? I mean, here's another place your precious per-game stats fail. Given the pace that Denver plays, OF COURSE their stats are going to elevated, rebounds especially. So even given Denver's increased pace, and the fact that this will lead to MORE shots which will lead to MORE missed shots which will lead to MORE per game rebound chances and him getting many MORE minutes, he still only averaged one tenth of a rebound more per game than Maggette. I feel like this stuff should be obvious...
Fourth, why would I study the game of a one-dimensional player? Just for the sake of fun, lets swap in Kobe for Carmelo in Denver. They had a for reals pass-first PG in Miller and an elite and deep frontcourt to shag balls. Are you telling me Kobe wouldn't win 55+ games with that team? I bet you could even swap in Pierce or McGrady and that team would win 5 more games. I bet you could swap in Maggette and break even. Carmelo is hype.
And college basketball is laughable. I am sure the halls of records are full of players who were excellent rebounders in college who failed in the NBA.
My criticism of Carmelo Anthony is based on the fact that he is a one-dimensional player. My criticism of the Nuggets would be given that they already had Carmelo Anthony, why would they bring in mini-Carmelo?
John R, with all due respect
About 4:10 left vs Canada
Much more of that please.
Who's tired of the ...
One correction...
100 surrendered to Mexico
Let's see which Puerto Rico shows up.

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