The Final Four
Update [2007-8-28 19:16:55 by ClipperSteve]:I was wrong about the format of the tournament when I first posted this. Hat tip to John R for pointing it out. The opening round eliminated 2 of the 10 teams, the second round (where we are now) has teams playing all four advancers from the OTHER pool (so in all teams play 8 of the 9 other teams in the tournament during these phases) and after the second round, the top 4 teams advance to the semi-finals, where it FINALLY gets down to single elimination. The top two finishers qualify for Beijing directly - 3rd place through 5th place qualify for a final chance to qualify for Beijing. Confused? I know I am. I'll try to correct the most egregious factual errors below, but hopefully the basketball stuff is still salient.
You think the NBA regular season is pointless? How about pool play in the FIBA Americas Tournament? 20 games in order to eliminate 2 of the 10 teams, and then you do it all again before you start a single elimination round. So you go from playing games that barely count at all to games that kind of count to games that are do or die. Apparently the transition was too much for Brazil. The odds on favorite to secure the second Olympic berth at the beginning of the tournament, they were 3-0 in pool play the first round when they met the US on Sunday. Perhaps they were hungover from that drubbing, or maybe just not that good, but now they are out, after getting they were beaten badly by Puerto Rico, who was a mere 1-3 in pool play the first round. You can't blame Barbosa, who has been the best player in the tournament not wearing a Team USA uni. He scored 34 in the loss. But where was Nene? He has at times looked like a future all star for the Nuggets, but he has been significantly worse than Tiago Splitter for the Brazilians in Vegas. The Nuggets are paying him and Kenyon Martin close to $22M to share the power forward spot next year. Yikes.
Tonight's games The semi-finals are the real point of the tournament. Since two teams get Olympic berths, the semi-final winners are both bound for Beijing. Tomorrow night's The final is merely for the Championship of this tournament, and of course no one much cares about that. Unless Canada can come up with an upset, So far, it looks like the US will have to contend with an Argentine squad next year, which is bad news for them, but good news for basketball fans. Rest assured that Ginobili and Oberto and Nocioni will play in that one if they are healthy.
Isn't it time for Argentina's coach to get some credit? When Argentina was winning World Championships and Olympic Gold Medals playing a beautiful, flawlessly executed brand of basketball it was always "Those guys have the advantage of having played together since they were on the Junior National Team" and "You just can't throw a bunch of guys together and expect them to execute that way." Well, guess what? Different guys, same execution. These guys can play, and Sergio Hernandez can coach.
The Mexico game exposed some of the same flaws the US team had in 2006. Let's face it - they gave up 100 points to a bunch of guys who couldn't make it in the D-league. And where did those points come from? Open threes and pick and rolls; it's all Greek to me. The second quarter looked like the worst case scenario of what this team could be - Kobe forcing shots, no one playing defense, poor rebounding, no offensive continuity. I know, they still won by 27. But it looked like Llamas ate half of Mexico's team. Those guys were not good. Check out Chris Sheridan's column for more of the bad news.
Puerto Rico has some terrific guards: Carlos Arroyo, JJ Barea and designated shooter Larry Ayuso, a former Trojan. I can't imagine that they can actually compete given their bigs, but Coach K's tendency to go small will help them. I'd be inclined to play Stoudemire and Howard together and just pummel them inside. Rest assured they watched the Mexico game and will run pick and roll all game long. Arroyo is one of the players who can be terrific or horrible. But if you let him get on a roll, he could give the US fits.
As I predicted 7 weeks ago, Tyson Chandler is the 12th man. Of course, then I thought that Bosh would be on the team. Without Bosh, and with Chandler reduced to 4 minutes against Mexico, the US is playing two bigs. Myself and others have railed against the illogic of starting Carmelo at the 4. Well, forget that for a moment. Against Mexico, Stoudemire, Howard and Chandler combined to play 42 minutes of a 40 minute game. Carmelo played 20 minutes. So, with Tayshaun Prince hurt, for 18 minutes yesterday, someone else was playing the 4. Obviously this goes way beyond the question of whether or not Carmelo Anthony is a legitimate 4. He's friggin' Karl Malone compared to Mike Miller. In case there was any confusion, let me just say: I DO NOT GET IT.
Jax suggested that the presence of Mike D'Antoni on the coaching staff was influencing the style of play, and it's a great point: I have no doubt that it's true. But Phoenix' style is dictated by their personnel. Furthermore, as John R has pointed out, it's a high risk, high reward type of approach to play small and shoot lots of threes. It's the way you play when you're not really sure you have the best talent, and it has failed Phoenix in the NBA playoffs for three seasons now. When you have the BEST talent, you play a conservative game plan, right? The US personnel and game plan are absolutely perfect to win lots of meaningless games by 50, and then lose one that counts by 3. A bigger, more traditional lineup, would win by 15 to 20, every game.
Final thought - when you watch Kobe play defense like he did against Barbosa, do you say 'Wow, what a great player. He's really doing what it takes for his country. I admire that.' Or do you say 'Why the hell doesn't he play defense like that in the NBA? He should be ashamed of himself.' It's the Kobe Bryant Rohrshach test. I don't think I need to tell you where I come out.
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I think Im confused
And if 3-5 go to the last chance qualifier, how do they choose team 5? 1 & 2 are obvious as are 3 & 4 who are the semi-final losers. But what about 5? Its probable teams 5 & 6 and maybe 7 will have the same record.
This tournament truly has an international flair. And by that I mean stifling bureaucracy.
ugh... how embarrassing
I don't even know if I can salvage the post, there's so many errors in it. As comic book guy might say CRAZIEST. FORMAT. EVER.
Looks like
I continue to believe that the Phoenix strategy will work against most teams in international play, where it's all about three point shooting, zones likely won't work and the key is huge. Our guys, including Carmelo, seem very quick and energized. The three wing lineup can guard the permimeter very well. I must admit that I'm slightly biased as I like the Phoenix style of play. I would disagree with Steve that this is not the best lineup for international play. And yes Phoenix lost in the playoffs the past three years but last year Amare was hurt and this year they were robbed. No?
We'll see what happens. Argentina will be interesting.
Another benefit
Carmelo is awesome as a SF
I think the team would be best served starting Melo with LeBron coming off the bench.
But he is probably big enough to play PF in the intl. game. Not that many big ones out there.
by mp on Aug 29, 2007 8:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Oh Jax
But lets take the stats at face value. PR went 7-33 on mostly wide open 3's. Lets say instead of being ice cold, they are moderately warm and go 15-33 from 3. Slightly below 50% is reasonable from the shorter arc. Team USA will run into at least one team that accomplishes this. Now its only a 15 point victory over a tiny island. Is that nearly so impressive? The difference was merely PR's ice cold shooting, not anything team USA did. And if they had been on fire and climbed above 50%, again possible given the shorter arc, well lets not think about that right now.
More general observations:
I can't decide if its good news or bad news for the NBA how coooooooooooooooooly Amare stepped out and hit that 3. I mean its another weapon, but isn't it a good thing if he falls in love with the perimeter?
PJ Ramos is a handsome man.
Actually
John R's failure to credit the US defense and offense with the win is particularly telling since it was obvious from watching the game that the US (led by Kobe) was aggressive, tenacious, and completely out-hustled and overwhelmed PR (which played the US close a couple of years ago). Hate to say it but Kobe is the main difference (other than the lineup change).
John R's suggestion that if PR had simply hit more shots the game would have been closer is interesting. Putting aside the fact that the US defense was the primary reason for PR's shooting woes, the US starters didn't play for 75% of the second half. If they had, the US would have won by 60. I guess one could say the same thing about a team of 7 year olds. If only they would shoot better they would beat the US. The point here is that they didn't because they couldn't. Period.
I Tivo'd the game, boys - let me know if anyone wants a DVD.
Finally, I wonder why John R dislikes Carmelo (I think he described him as "garbage") so much . . . I can envision John R sitting there last night hoping the US would lose so he could prove that his formula was correct.
Ouch
That's much worse.
I don't disagree that Kobe (along with Kidd) is the main difference. I said that many threads ago. When I also said that if Kobe and/or Kidd don't come back next year, the team won't be any better than it was last year.
The defense did nothing. PR was getting open looks all night on the perimeter. Seems like others agree with that assessment, "...Puerto Rico helped these numbers by missing a fair amount of good looks on their own." If they hit those fair amount of good looks, last nights game might go in the loss column. I suppose you are comfortable with this.
Carmelo's contribution? Puerto Rico missed about 36 shots while he was on the court. Our starting PF saw fit to grab 3 of them. About 8%, weird. Isn't what that wacky Rebound Rate stat estimated he would do? Elite rebounding!
Team USA is going to (well should) win all of the games in this tournament. That's never been in question. Unfortunately, it doesn't really prove anything. But if they play like this vs a full strength Argentina or bring in Carmelo to defend a Gasol...I'm still not convinced. I see JCN and Gasol torching the USA on that pick and roll for 40 minutes.
Look
"The United States held the Puerto Ricans without a field goal for 6½ minutes to open the second period, outscoring them 22-4 to turn an 11-point lead into a 48-19 bulge on Anthony's 3-pointer with 3:47 remaining in the first half. Arroyo made a 3 about 20 seconds later, ending Puerto Rico's 0-for-8 drought.
The Americans were 7-of-11 from 3-point range in the quarter, limited the Puerto Ricans to just three field goals in 17 attempts, and led 59-27 at the break."
You're also complaining about Carmelo's rebounding during the 17 minutes or so that he played in a blowout win. However, you do note that the US forced PR to miss 36 shots during the time Carmelo was in the game. Excellent stat, John R!!
You also expressed some concern about Carmelo against Gasol. First, won't Gasol play center? Second, if it's such an issue the US can double or zone. Third, if it's an issue they can start Amare over Carmelo in that game.
I understand that you want to win every argument that you create with me. Tell you what - YOU WIN!!! Congrats. Let's move on.
There are 2 Gasols
A Gasol. A Gasol. Two can play at once. Seemed obvious. And if you are saying we should start a PF over Carmelo in games that actually count...well that's been the point all along hasn't it? We could qualify in this tournament by going back to a team of college kids. Its what we need to do when the elite teams are in play that matters.
Carmelo missed the Uruguay game and the results were...just about the same.
Not surprising given that Carmelo isn't really contributing to wins.
I think if you look back, historically speaking, its you that "creates" debates. I don't see any record of you caring about Carmelo until I called him garbage. Would you care to produce your backlog of work in support of Anthony that predates my comment? It must be grand and robust given your accusation that I create trouble.
You're out of your league, Donny. You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie.
Why are you
It's not just a Carmelo thing
And I'm convinced it's not (just) the NBA marketing machine. The fact that Tayshaun Prince is the backup 4 on this team makes it clear that they have a preference for 4s who are really slashers, not bangers. These guys play the 3 every minute of every NBA game - but they are 4's in international ball. Whatev.
The theoretical benefits - better shooting against a tight zone, quicker 4's to play defense against opposition shooters - are clear. Although one wonders if Carmelo is actually better defending the wing than any number of actual 4s (or Tyson for that matter). Let's at least hope that Team USA maintains an option of going big in Beijing, where teams will have more size. I'm a little concerned that they won't carry enough bigs, and/or simply won't use them.
So far it's working great in this tournament, but let's not forget that this competition level is way down.
true
Somone will have to man up on Tony Parker, and the Spaniards are pretty good, too.
But this team USA looks bloodthirsty right now. The additon of Kobe and Redd allows them to be spread the floor, rather than last year's LeBron and Wade rim attack.
While defense wins in the NBA, I'm not sure it is as important in Intl Ball. It seems that being able to shoot the ball is key.
by mp on Aug 29, 2007 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions
Clips sign Rueben Patterson
by zhivclip on Aug 29, 2007 6:01 PM PDT reply actions
Kobe Stopper
Trying to figure this out
Reuben Patterson plays defense.
And he scores a fair amount too, kind of in the Mobley/Simmons/banged up Cassell 12-15 ppg range. Last year he scored 14.7 pts in 2500 minutes on a team that lost 50+ games and drafted a big Chinese guy. Those points will come in handy.
My hopeful guess is that Patterson takes some of the empty minutes away from Ross, Mobley, and Thomas. He's not a good enough scorer to play alongside Ross or Mobley for long stretches with Maggette on the bench--that Clipper lineup might be stingy on defense, but they won't score any points. But bringing in Patterson for Mobley, with Patterson and Maggette playing together, is a pretty good option. Starting Maggette and Patterson and bringing Mobley off the bench is pretty good too.
There's a good question of where Ross goes on the depth chart, and Thornton too. And Korolev has to be done now. Brand's injury was a bad turn of events for him. He should go to the GSW training camp and try to get a job.
Of course, now that the Clips have Patterson they can just trade Maggette and Cassell for draft picks and tank the season. Just saying...
by zhivclip on Aug 29, 2007 6:43 PM PDT reply actions

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