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The Maggette-festo

During the past year, I've posted many, many times on coach Mike Dunleavy Sr's handling of Corey Maggette.  I wrote about it before the season began, while Corey was sitting on the bench, and after he had been re-instated as a starter.  I've always planned to write one big post explaining everything from ClipperSteve's perspective.  But the task has always been too daunting:  where to begin?  Besides, I still don't understand it.  So I could recap what happened, and re-state things I've said before, but what's the point in that?

When a Maggette debate erupted in the comments of an innocuous post recently (as often happens), I felt there were good points being made on both sides.  I started to make a comment myself, but that comment kept growing and growing.  Suddenly, I realized I was writing my big, off-season Maggette post.  My Maggette-festo.  

I'm more or less finished with it now, and here it is before you.  I have to warn you: it's very disappointing.  At least it is to me.  There are no light bulbs.  No 'eureka!' moments.  In the final analysis, MDsr had an interesting idea about putting his best defender in the starting lineup and bringing instant offense off the bench, he seems to have gotten fixated on the idea, and consequently he stubbornly hung on to it way too long.  Was it a battle of wills?  I don't know, but the end result was that the Clippers never started their best team the entire season - the three games after Maggette became the starting small forward and before Livingston was lost for the season, Kaman was sick with the flu.    

Here's how I got dragged into the debate today:

ZhivClip: He played poorly in the beginning of the season because he was the 8th or 9th man and wasn't in the starting lineup.
John R: As soon as someone can explain how this makes sense, I'll be able to hear the haters.  Until then, its all an illogical mess.

From my perspective, it is indeed, all an illogical mess.  And I do mean, ALL of it.  It is in fact, far easier to explain Corey's poor performance as a 6th man than to explain MDsr's behavior last season - stubbornly refusing to start Maggette for two-thirds of the season, driving his value down before the trade deadline, finally inserting him into the starting lineup AFTER the deadline had passed and AFTER Corey publicly blew up for the first time.  Explain that.  I mean, seriously.  He plays a season-low 17 minutes in New York on Feb. 6 (compared to 22 minutes for Doug Christie), trashes the coach to the LA beat writers after the game, and finds himself back in the starting lineup for good 2 weeks later on Feb. 20.  I guess he should have trashed the coach sooner.  How does any of this make sense?

I'm not trying to be argumentative.  I respect both camps in the Maggette debate.  John R, one of his biggest critics, is also one of the best and most insightful hoops analysts we have in ClipsNation.  But it's clear that the situation is not as simple as 'Corey would be an all star if only MDsr didn't hold him back' on one end of the spectrum or 'Corey is a cancer' on the other end.

As for the question as to how Corey's production could have suffered playing against second string defenders without him slacking in his effort, I believe I can sum up the answer in one word: confidence.  It seems fairly clear, in hindsight, that however the '6th man' idea was communicated to Corey, it was not done well.  Nobody ever 'sold' Corey on the concept, yet he was the good soldier in the early going and said he would do it.  I personally find it amazing that MDsr didn't seize on the break that Cat Mobley gave him last October 12 when he offered to come off the bench.  We can preach all we want about how Corey is part of the team and he is paid a lot of money and how should do whatever the coach asks of him - but a big part of a coach's job is managing egos (just ask Phil Jackson), and you ignore it at your own peril.  Cat handed MDsr a 'get out of jail free' card on this one, but he stuck to his dubious vision.

So, going into the season, Corey is not convinced it's a good plan.  We can extrapolate from there that Corey felt slighted; that he believed that MDsr was disrespecting him by demoting him.  Now put yourself in Corey's shoes for a moment.  In case you don't have a Play Corey T-shirt, let me remind you that his points per game had increased every year he was in the league for his first six seasons, peaking at 22.2 in 04-05.  That 22.2 points, by the way, was 13th best in the league that year.  The 12 names ahead of him that year were all all-stars.  When he got injured on Dec. 5, he had been averaging 22.4 points in his first 12 games and the team was 12-5.  Why are we even having a discussion about whether he's a starter?  How many consistent 20 point a game players in the NBA don't start?  But I digress.

It is an adage in sport that a player does not lose his starting position due to injury - yet that is precisely what happened to Maggette.  He spent most of the rest of the season trying to get 100% healthy while coming off the bench.  Then during an admittedly terrific playoff run, Ross started, Maggette was 6th man, and the 'defense first' head coach got fixated on an idea.  

Confidence.  Confidence is a funny thing.  It's certainly easy enough to say that Corey was disgruntled at being the 6th man, and therefore his effort lagged, and that's why he was not as productive in the role.  Even if you don't like the touchy-feely-ness of 'confidence', ask yourself this question:  are you more productive in your work when you are happy in your work?  Does it mean you are intentionally slacking off when you are not?  I watched every game and I never saw the guy 'dogging' it.  Did you?  I saw him make plenty of bonehead plays, but I don't know how you attribute that to lack of effort.  But, at the risk of slipping into psychobabble (a word which spellcheck unexpectedly is allowing), it seems to me that Corey was desperately trying to prove to the coach how good he was, to win back his starting job, feeling the pressure, and making mistakes.  Not only had he been demoted to a backup role without ever being convinced it was the right move - as I've pointed out before, he wasn't even the 6th man in reality.  He was coming off the bench AFTER Livingston and Thomas and playing fewer minutes as well.  He was the 8th man.  So, before your injury, you were averaging over 20 ppg, arguably headed into All Star territory statistically, and suddenly you're coming off the bench, and all the 'good of the team' and '6th man of the year award' talk looks like so much bullshit because you're not even the first guy off the bench!  

John R wrote:  "Having seen Maggette play for so many years, my observation was that Corey WAS dogging it, and often.  Not necessarily physically, because that would hurt his personal stats, but definitely mentally.  It was clear to me that his time spent on the court was filled with indifference."

Was he disgruntled?  No doubt.  But I'm not sure how anyone, even the eagle-eyed John R, can 'see' someone 'mentally dogging it.'  Of course, this is all an esoteric, theoretical and ultimately semantic argument - one man's indifference is another man's lack of confidence.  But I think we're in agreement that Corey was providing plenty of physical effort - his results were sub-par for some other reason.  By way of proof I would point to his rebounding numbers during his time as a 6th man.  Rebounding is without question an 'effort' stat, and Corey's rebounding numbers while he was coming off the bench were easily the best of his career.

So I still maintain that it was confidence, not lack of effort, that was effecting Corey's game.  Can confidence really have that big an impact?  If you've ever actually played basketball, then you know that it can.  But I'll give a couple of recent examples as well.  (1) Last season, Matt Barnes made 106 three point field goals out of 290 attempts (37%), after being 10 for 50 (20%) in his three prior NBA seasons.  Did he work on his three point shot in the off-season?  No doubt he did.  But I would submit that by far the biggest factor in his improvement (and Barnes has said as much himself) is the confidence he had to take the shot, instilled in him by a coach who told him to shoot the ball when he was open.  (2) The 2004 USA Olympic team was roundly criticized for not having enough shooters, and indeed it was a major weakness of the team.  But Iverson, Marbury, Jefferson, Marion, James and Anthony are all more than capable of making a three-pointer, particularly from the international distance.  So why did they shoot a mere 31% from the three point line (their opponents shot 44%)?  Because coach Larry Brown told them not to shoot, and was more than willing to sit someone next to him on the bench for any shot that he determined to be ill-advised.  

[The three-point shooting examples above are also apropos to Maggette's situation last season.  Never known as an outstanding three point shooter, he was nonetheless shooting 32.6% for his career (just below the magical 1-in-3 mark that is the mathematical equivalent of 50% shooting on two point field goals) entering last season.   He proceeded to make just 2 out of 25 three point attempts in the month of November, prompting a chorus of 'JUST STOP SHOOTING' howls from detractors who felt that one month of data was more reliable than 7 season's worth.  As a starter after the All-Star break, Maggette made 8 of 22 threes.  Was he trying to miss in November?  Was he missing because he was 'dogging it'?  Three point shooting is not Corey Maggette's most effective weapon, but to the extent that he has the confidence to shoot it and a green light from his coach, it can help set up the rest of his game when used appropriately.]

But even if we take John's hypothesis at face value that Corey was indifferent, what does it mean?  Well, it would seem to me that one part of a coach's job, a really big part in fact, is motivating his players.  If indeed Corey was ineffective because he was indifferent, MDsr has to share the blame for not motivating him.  Now, if you have 15 guys under contract, and they all want to start, and they're going to be indifferent and unmotivated if they don't start, then you've got a big problem, one that is impossible to solve.  But Corey Maggette was a 7 year veteran, the longest-tenured Clipper, and a starter for the better part of five seasons.  There are reasonable expectations and unreasonable expectations.  If Corey felt de-motivated by his de-motion, it's not surprising.  MDsr had an obligation to find a way to motivate him.

We've speculated at length about the bizarr-o way that MDsr refused to start Maggette for two-thirds of the season, then suddenly and without warning inserted him into the starting lineup on a full-time basis for the rest of the season.  Most of the supposed explanations I've heard simply don't ring true.  During one broadcast after his re-emergence, Ralph said "He's getting the kind of minutes he wanted because he's playing the right way."  I'm sorry but, no, it's simply not so.  He played 22 minutes off the bench in the final game before the All Star Break.  He played 40 minutes as a starter in the first game after the All Star Break.  If the increase in minutes were indeed a result of a change in his game, the trend would emerge gradually, with increased minutes off the bench preceding his re-insertion as a starter.  This was a decision, taken for whatever reason, during the All Star Break.  In all likelihood it was on the strong recommendation of Donald T. Sterling.  Obviously Corey responded well to the decision, but the decision to start him and increase his minutes came before any uptick in Corey's productivity.

Steve Springer once wrote in the LA Times that Corey had finally earned a starting role and more minutes by working hard in practice.  A notoriously hard-worker, the implication that he did not ALWAYS practice hard only made Corey shake his head and mutter.  (By the way, this is another indication of the frighteningly poor communications in Clipper-land - MDsr and Maggette communicating via a reporter for the LA Times.)

Finally, during one broadcast, Mike Smith said that MDsr had pulled Corey aside during the All Star Break, and explained that he was going to put him back in the starting lineup, and what he wanted Corey to do.  According to Smith, he discussed the aspects of Corey's game where he wanted to see improvement (defensive rotations, creating opportunities for teammates, staying under control, shot selection, etc.) and asked him to work on those things.  Lo and behold, he improved in all of those aspects as a starter in the final 2 months of the season.  Now this explanation seems at least to be supported by observation, but there's one big question that remains:  What the hell took so long?  If a heart-to-heart conversation in late February was all it took to get this situation resolved, where was that conversation in October?  Five months after training camp, MDsr explains what his expectations are?  No wonder the team was so screwed up!  I would be less inclined to believe this explanation (surely MDsr can't have been that poor a communicator) if the dynamic were not so clearly dysfunctional for so much of last season.  The evidence that was available certainly smacked of a dearth of communication - I myself was pleading for a closed door meeting more than two months into the season.

[As an aside, this latest debate erupted from a comment criticizing Ralph and Mike for adhering too closely to the 'party line' as regards l'affaire Maggette last season.  I don't disagree that their tendency to preach the gospel according to MDsr is lamentable, but it is standard practice for broadcasters.  They are, after all, employed by the team.  To question the decisions of the organization would be to criticize their own bosses.  Ralph and Mike remain far superior to the vast majority of broadcast teams to which I've been exposed (Joel and Stu? Puh-lease), despite their understandable tendency to be MDsr apologists.]

One of the strangest factors in this whole saga is the allocation of garbage time minutes.  Before the All Star Break, when Maggette was coming off the bench, he was always on the floor with Korolev and Davis and Ewing after the game had been decided.  After the All Star Break, it was Ross mopping up.  Now, I suppose this is as simple as saying that the starter is playing the bulk of his minutes in the first and third quarters, while the backup tends to play more in the second and fourth, so it was only logical for Maggette to be on the floor in the fourth quarter while he was coming off the bench.  But surely we can apply a little more common sense to our substitution patterns than that.  I was embarrassed for Corey to watch him playing alongside the scrubs - I can only imagine how he felt about it.  And to pre-suppose that MDsr simply didn't realize that this might be taken as a sign of disrespect is no answer.  Which is worse?  That he would do it knowing full well how it looked, or that he would be so obtuse as to not realize?

So assuming MDsr is NOT that obtuse, the change in garbage time minutes from before the All Star Break to after is perhaps more telling than the fact that Corey was once again starting.  With 12 players in uniform, in theory the last 5 are in the game to mop up, and the top 7 are resting.  On a team like the Clippers, with a well-defined top 8, one of the top guys had to play.  Why was it Maggette?  It's another indication that in MDsr's mind, Corey wasn't even the 6th man - he was the 8th man.  Besides, what better way than garbage time to send a message?  Using playing time to make a point with a player while the game is in doubt is a tricky business - the coach is going to be judged on wins and losses after all, so you risk making a point at the expense of your own skin.  But after the game is decided, you can do any old symbolic thing you want to, risk free.  By playing Maggette during garbage time, MDsr was saying, not so subtly, "You need to work on your game."    

I may be accused of overanalyzing in this case, but it also seems evident to me that Corey's game is especially ill-suited to garbage time.  Corey Maggette is a genius for getting to the basket and drawing fouls.  He's been accused of being a bull in a china shop, and it's not an inapt analogy.  But it is a grueling style of play, and he's suffered his share of injuries as a result.  At the end of a blow out, when the final outcome is no longer in doubt, there is no reason to go crashing into the lane, risking injury in pursuit of a foul call.  Furthermore, NBA refs put their whistles in their pockets during garbage time.  They're not stupid.  No one wants to be there any longer than they have to.  The game is over.  Why prolong it?  When Corey went 0 for 10 in garbage time against Seattle last year, it was embarrassing for everyone.  But let's face it - he wouldn't have taken 10 jump shots in the fourth quarter of a close game.  He would have taken 15 free throws.  

And don't lump me in the anti-Ross camp simply because I think Q should be on the floor during garbage time instead of Maggette.  Maggette is a 7 year vet making $7M per.  Q is a 3 year vet making $700K.  Call it the privileges of rank.  Besides, in contrast to Maggette's game which is ill-suited to garbage time, Q benefits greatly from touches and scoring opportunities in game situations.  I love Ross, and think there continues to be an incredibly valuable role for him on the team.  I could easily make an argument that Q should be starting - but it would be in Mobley's spot.

I could toss out lots of statistics to support the 'Maggette should be a starter' position, but of course statistics can be made to support almost any position.  Besides, I don't even think that's the discussion we're having at this point.  There simply is no debate that Corey played better as a starter than he did coming off the bench last season, in almost every way, nor is there any debate as to whether or not he will be starting.  I must say though, one advantage to MDsr making the switch precisely at the All Star Break - it's really easy to look at his splits from before and after.  

Of course he was more productive in basically every category, but a 31% increase in playing time (from 27.4 min per game to 35.9) will do that for you.  But when you look at the numbers per 48 minutes, a few things really jump out.  For one thing, he was scoring at a similar clip - 26 points per 48 pre-ASB, 27.1 post ASB.  (He led the team in points per 48 all season.)  But, he was significantly more efficient as a starter - shooting 49.6% versus 42.5%.  So he scored more, in fewer shot attempts.  Meanwhile, he significantly increased his assist numbers, to a career best 5.5 assists per 48, versus 3.5 before the all star break.  His rebounding numbers actually suffered, but that has more to do with how well he was rebounding before.  He remains a great rebounder at the 3 (even better at the 2 of course), averaging more rebounds and more rebounds per minute than the much taller Tim Thomas last season and more than most taller 3's including All Stars like Carmelo Anthony and Rashard Lewis.  His turnovers remained identical per 48 minutes, and clearly this is an area where we would all like to see improvement.  But the nature of Corey's game on offense is always going to create a high number of turnovers, both on offensive fouls and by simply losing the ball.  It's an area that needs work, but it comes with the territory.  Look at Dwyane Wade's turnover numbers.  

Finally, after all of that craziness last year, MDsr came out and declared to Bill Plaschke that Corey would be a starter, fully 2 and half months before training camp:  

He and Dunleavy have long clashed about Maggette's defense. Dunleavy has decided to swallow his tongue and leave him in the starting lineup anyway. It's up to Maggette to reward him by becoming a more complete player.

"He will be a starter, for sure," Dunleavy said. "We're fine. Things ended up well for us."

After all that.  We're fine.  We're fine thanks.  How are you?  It's a little like Rosanne Rosannadanna:  'Never mind.'  

To say that the Clippers would have made the playoffs last season had Maggette been a starter from the beginning is pointless and childish.  I may think they would have, but we'll never know because it is unknowable.  Ultimately, there were issues with the team, and the rift between Maggette and MDsr certainly contributed, but to what extent is yet another thing we'll never know.  Of course a measly two extra wins would have put them in the post-season, but they weren't getting out of the first round with Jason Hart at the point.  

It will be particularly interesting to see what happens in the early part of this season while Brand is out rehabbing his Achilles.  Not only will Corey be a starter, he'll be the featured scorer on offense, the 'go to' guy.  Unfortunately, it's always difficult to correlate individual statistics directly to team success.  It's very likely that Corey's offensive numbers will be through the roof, while the team loses a lot of games.  If that's the case, the Maggette debate will rage on.  

In a realistic best case scenario (not a pie in the sky, Clippers lead the Pacific despite Brand's absence and Maggette makes the All Star team fantasy), I'd like to see this team back together before the end of the season.  I'd like to see Livingston, Brand and Maggette on the floor at the same time.  Because if, as I suspect, Corey averages 20+ points per game this season, he's going to opt out of his contract and expect a raise (from someone).  The Clippers might be willing to give him that raise if they've seen the core group together again, and liked what they've seen.  Remember, Corey is still only 27 years old.  But fate (and MDsr) have conspired to keep us from seeing a healthy and motivated Maggette and a healthy Livingston on the same floor for two seasons and counting.  It may be of course that Livingston will never be whole; but the real shame would be if this core group of young, talented and SIGNED players that Elgin Baylor and MDsr first put together in 2004 (Brand, Maggette, Kaman and Livingston) are broken up before they've ever really had a chance.

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Can we just put . . . .
PG: Jared Jordan
SG: Kitty Kat
SF: Corey Maggette
PF: Al Thornton
C: Chris Kaman

. . . . that as our starting lineup next season?

Mix of youth and experience. Jordan could be a reliable point guard in the future, so let him see considerable time there. His defense cannot be worse than Sam Cassell, that's for sure. Our first guys off of the bench should be Yaroslav Korolev, Sam Cassell, Brevin Knight, Tim Thomas, and Aaron Williams in that order. I just want Thornton to be a starter right away. Don't let him rot on the bench like we did with Korolev, who actually has serious talent if they would play him in situations where it would be better suited instead of at the end of a damn blowout where he just doesn't give a damn.

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill

by FlyByKnight on Aug 8, 2007 1:59 AM PDT   0 recs

Thanks, Steve
I really appreciate the time you put into that post and the insight it reflects.  You are clearly a knowledgeable, articulate and passionate Clipper fan.  

I would like to expand on a couple of points you made.  First, the Clippers did not have enough solid scorers last year. Kaman and Mobley were huge disappointments in that regard.  This is one of the major reasons why people think Corey played better as a starter than as a reserve.  Additional scorers in the lineup at the same time creates more offensive opportunities for all.  When Corey came in last year, EB was generally out of the game.  This also affects "confidence."  The players knew this, and it had to affect their belief in MDSr's system.

Second, I respectfully disagree with your assessment that the thought that the Clippers would have made the playoffs had Corey started all year (everything else being equal) is pointless and childish.  Obviously this is my opinion and I believe that it is based on sound logic.  The Clippers finished only a couple of games out of the playoffs last year.  I believe that they would have won at least five more games had Corey started the entire year, primarily because the offense would have run so much better and been more consistent and the team would have had much more confidence as a whole.  

Of course, my opinion is not something that can be objectively verified or is "knowable" (just like we don't know for sure what would have happened had MDSr not put a cold Ewing on Raja), but I would disagree with your characterization that it is "pointless" or "childish."  In fact, I believe that it is very helpful to engage in such debates when we are analyzing the performance of a coach who is being paid several million dollars a year to make such decisions based in large part on the hard-earned monies paid by fans like us.  This is not some minor esoteric issue about substitution patterns but rather what would have happened had the coach decided to start his second best player (and his second of two consistent scorers) instead of relegating the second best player to 8th man status for the bulk of the year.  

Jax

by Jax on Aug 8, 2007 9:29 AM PDT   0 recs

Point taken...
I actually changed the wording of that sentence several times.  I stand by the accuracy of the statement, but in retrospect it came across as more pejorative than I intended.

It is childish, in the sense that it is the kind of thing a child would do.  But children do lots of wonderful things, so the word doesn't have to be pejorative (though of course in standard usage it is).  Perhaps I should have gone with 'childlike'.  But I think we agree on the big picture, even if you understandably disagree with my wording.  I still say it is pointless - we're not going to change anything, though in that sense I suppose my entire blog is pointless other than as an outlet for my ramblings.  We can't know what would have happened, although we both strongly believe that it would have been worth a couple of victories.  And passionate fans enjoy discussing what might have been, so I suppose that's the point right there.  (Hell, one more win against either the Lakers or the Warriors would have meant a playoff berth.)  I understand your objection, but I think overall we're in agreement.

The Clippers did indeed struggle on offense last season.  However, I think that's a big reason why MDsr liked the Maggette 6th man thing... he thought he could keep one scorer on the floor at all times, bringing Maggette when Brand rested.  The weird thing is he couldn't seem to figure out that not starting didn't have to necessarily mean fewer minutes.  27 minutes as a reserve vs. 36 minutes as a starter was the real issue.  He could bring Corey off the bench all season for all I care, as long as he gave him 36 minutes.

 

by ClipperSteve on Aug 8, 2007 10:48 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Your analysis will always fail for one reason
The point of an NBA game isn't to score as many points as possible, but to score more points than the other team.  This is further restricted by the fact that both teams will get almost exactly the same amount of chances to score.

The 2003-2004 Pistons won 54 games and embarrassed Shaq and Kobe on the way to the NBA championship scoring 90ppg.

The 2006-2007 Los Angeles Clippers averaged 95.6, more than other recent NBA Champions (and less than others of course).

The problem isn't pure ppg.  The problem is far more complex.  In 2007 and 2005, only Duncan averaged 20 for the NBA Champion Spurs, and just that.  20.0ppg and 20.3ppg respectively.  Ppg might be the single most overrated stat in the world.

(The funny thing about that old tired Ewing line, is that Ewing was the Clippers best perimeter defender.  In version 1 of that study he was the best, period.  Dunleavy understood the play PHO would call, he got his best defender in the game on the shooter, and his defender played it as perfectly as he could.  But part of basketball is luck, and instead of a brilliant read of the game and perfect substitution, some remember it as a bonehead play.  Nicely illustrates the limits in understanding some folks possess.  Misconstruing bad luck as a boneheaded move.  Simple answers for the simple-minded, I guess.)(I tend to think version 1 more closely matches observation, but its definitely a good road to go down regardless of outcome.)

by John R on Aug 8, 2007 11:18 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The problem
The problem with your argument, JohnR, is that the Clippers lost way too many games and played like crap, far below their potential.  There's a time and place for conservative and defense-oriented play.  Dunleavy took the Clippers very far with it, but he stepped over the edge.

You can say all you want that San Antonio and Detroit are successful because of their conservative style of play, but you're saying it while the Clippers fail to make the playoffs and they're vastly inferior to teams like Phoenix, and now Golden State.  Dallas had the whole package, depth, defense, and scoring, and they got their asses kicked.

It's a game, and there are lots of ways to play it.  The scoreboard shows if you were right or wrong.  That's your point, not mine.  And the scoreboard shows that that Dunleavy was wrong, and the Clippers regressed.  The reason is because he didn't put his best players on the floor.  And because he didn't make changes quickly enough even when it was obvious that he was wrong.

by zhivclip on Aug 8, 2007 11:47 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I disagree
The reason is because he didn't put his best players on the floor.  

I disagree with your premise and your conclusion.  I could show you how he did in fact put his best players on the floor, and how lineups chosen by the coach were the least of the reasons the Clippers regressed, but I won't waste my time because it is clear your mind has been made up.

Consider the fact that without Maggette available at all last year, the Clippers played .500 ball, but this year they played sub-.500 with his getting some minutes, and you will see, in brief, why your reasoning is inadequate to explain the reasons the team regressed.

In fact, given that the team played basically the same without him last year as with him some this year, I guess one could make the point that playing time for Corey Maggette is largely inconsequential, but that wouldn't be any fun, would it?

by John R on Aug 8, 2007 12:26 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Great post
Excellent analysis, prescient stats, fair and balanced (not in that tragic Fox News sort of way...).  Very nicely done.

by spartacus on Aug 8, 2007 10:22 AM PDT   0 recs

This will be unpopular so I'll keep it brief
Rather than get into the functional difference of why his game was suffering pre-ASB...

Assuming everything you say is true, what you have described is an individual who can be successful only given a specific set of circumstances.  The situation you have described is also not significantly different than what Ginobili has endured playing behind Grounded Brett Barry and Ancient Mike Finley.  So something else must distinguish them.

Taking everything I have observed and what has been described in the Maggette-festo, I can only conclude the difference is that, as much as I would like to crush his face for helping to ruin the game, Ginobili is a Winner, and Maggette is something else.  Its hard to win a championship when you team is counting on something elses.

ANY NBA player can be a 20ppg scorer.  That alone is not an accomplishment.  You just gotta crank that usage up high enough.

Let me drop one stat on you though.  I think even the biggest of Maggette fans must admit that Elton Brand is the best player the Clippers employ.  For a guy who supposedly lost confidence and was suffering on the bench, how is it that he STILL ended up with a higher Usage Rate than EB?  For those unfamiliar with advanced stats, the more Maggette plays, the less EB touches the ball.  It should then be not surprising that Maggette minutes correlate so closely with Clippers losses.

But its definitely Maggette's team to start next season.  Too late to do anything about that now.  Are you prepared for the team's best player to be throwing up 2-17 9 turnover outings?  Says here that in the ATL game that EB missed, Corey played 22 minutes, went 2-10 with 3 turnovers scoring only 5 points and managing to cram in 4 fouls.  Welcome to our November.

by John R on Aug 8, 2007 10:41 AM PDT   0 recs

Advanced Stats...
Pick your advanced stat, right?  Usage rates don't look good for Corey.  Points per shot, made free throws per 48 minutes, PER of 18.67 (47 in the league, easily second on the team, significantly higher as a starter)...  lots of stats look GREAT.

I'm not sure I agree that Maggette's minutes correlate to Clipper losses.  How have you come up with that particular stat?  Bear in mind also that my point about garbage time would factor heavily into that discussion.  But we don't have to normalize for garbage time to know that the Clippers were 25-28 at the all star break, and 15-14 after, playing most of that time without Shaun Livingston and essentially without Sam Cassell.  15-14 is dismal compared to our expectations, but I think you would agree with me that the team played by far it's best basketball after the ASB.  We don't need stats to prove that, just our eyes.

As for your point about Ginobili, it is well taken.  But let's face facts... Corey Maggette is not Manu Ginobili.  The other thing is, and I've made this point before, winning makes everyone feel a lot better.  The people who tell me 'Manu doesn't have any problem coming off the bench' would have a much better case if the Spurs were 25-28 at the all star break.  Conversely, MDsr would not have been hailed as a genius for bringing Corey off the bench if the Clippers had been 35-18 at the break.  The crazy part isn't that he tried it.  It's that he didn't realize it wasn't working.  But if it was easy to replicate everything the Spurs do, then they wouldn't be the dominant franchise in the NBA right now.

As for 2-10 with 3 turnovers, for every game like that, I can give you a two like 3/24 vs. the Wizards - 29 points on 9 shots, 5 assists, 3 turnovers.

Maybe I am describing an individual who can only be successful in a given set of circumstances.  So what?  Give him the circumstances.  It's not an exercise in character building.  It's a basketball team, and if you're the coach and you have a player who can be more or less successful depending on the circumstances, of course you would strive to provide the circumstances.  Right?

by ClipperSteve on Aug 8, 2007 11:27 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

correcting my comment...
MDsr would not have been hailed as a genius for bringing Corey off the bench if the Clippers had been 35-18 at the break.

by ClipperSteve on Aug 8, 2007 11:32 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Ill back off the correlation slightly
That came out of this discussion.  Besides the main post, please also see the d.han comment at 15:31.  The more Corey shot, the less the Clippers won.  The more Corey plays, the more Corey shoots.  The more Mobley scored and Ross played, the more the Clippers won.  A certain picture is painted by all this.

To Corey's upside, obviously.  And it was that Corey that I was a huge fan of.  Even in the playoffs, was Staples ever more rocking than when he hit the game winner in 2OT to beat the Heat in 2004-2005?  But that Seattle game really moved me out of liking him-liking him.  What it illustrated to me was that as he gets older and players start to come in more athletic than him due to youth or other factors, he is going to start to struggle more and more.  That Atlanta game probably was due to how long and athletic the Hawks are, as well.

Its that volitility that indicates, to me at least, that he can't be the focal point of a winning team.  The circumstances HAVE changed around the Clippers, and, as far as basketball timelines, permanently.  They have gone to a plodding style with EB and Kaman.  MDSr is a much of that core as Shaun, EB and Chris (and Ross and Mobley for that matter).  How does a guy who might score 15 points on 4 shots or 0 points in wasting 10 possessions fit into that?  MDSr. thought he fit by putting him in the Microwave, in part I'm sure, to maximize the damage Great Corey can inflict while minimizing the damage Turnover Corey could inflict.

But next season we will get maximum volitility until EB returns.  So he will have the chance to single-handedly turn wins into losses and vice versa.  For all the theories out there about how to win basketball games, there is one word I don't associate with them: uncertainty.  Corey Maggette is uncertainty made flesh.

I'm all for Corey's game evolving.  But if the options are change what the Clippers are doing to make it work for Corey or trade him for maximum value at the deadline, I vote for shipping him out.

by John R on Aug 8, 2007 12:12 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Stats are funny...
Kevin gave us this on Corey:

When recording 10 FTA or greater: 16-11

d. han gave us this:

Games where FGA were 10 or more: W-15, L-30
FG%: 44.63 on totals, 25.8 minutes/game

Games where FGA were 9 or less: W-22, L-8
FG%: 47.63 on totals, 33.5 minutes/game

Note that the FG% differential is far less significant than the pre and post ASB numbers.  FWIW.  

So we want Corey to not take too many shots, and get to the line.  Interesting.  Guess what?  The refs have a HUGE impact on Corey Maggette's life.  If they're giving him calls, Clips win.  If not, Clips lose.

I remember when Kevin first posted this, particularly the Mobley scoring thing.  I noted this trend early in the season (on Dec 5 in fact) "Is it my imagination, or is this season becoming a 'As Cat goes, so go the Clippers' thing?".  There's just one problem.  Mobley always got minutes.  He either scored or not, usually not.  What do I do with this information as a fan?  What would I do with it as a coach?  'I need Mobley to score 20 points for the team to win.  I know what I'll do, I'll play him 36 minutes a game, 20% more minutes than anyone on the team not named Elton.  Oops, we went 40-42 and missed the playoffs.'

by ClipperSteve on Aug 8, 2007 12:41 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't disagree with any of that
But it all goes to volitility.  To bring Wade's name back into it, he's largely in the same boat: one season he gets the wink and the nod and he's a Champion, the next the light is off and they are below average in the East.  How can you plan for this?  Well with Wade you don't have to.  He is the man.  Option 2 isn't even worth considering.

But this creates a problem for Dunleavy.  If Maggs isn't getting the calls, what else does he provide?  Does the rebounding justify leaving him in when we all know he can't resist shooting even if he is ice cold?  Dunleavy has to get him out of EB's way and hold him to 22 minutes.

So now Maggette's confidence is down.

And down the spiral we go.

I'd rather have him out of EB's way in the first place and give those touches back to the Horse with a sprinkle to Cassell, Mobley and Kaman.

by John R on Aug 8, 2007 1:12 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Wrong comparison
I think you're comparing Maggette to the wrong guys.  I said in the other thread that Maggette is a different player, coming from a different place, than Ginobili and Stackhouse.

I happen to think Ginobili is phenomenal, and truly extraordinary.  Believe me, I'd rather have Ginobili than Maggette in a heartbeat.

The players that I would compare Maggette to, and I'd be curious to hear what you think, are Vince Carter and Paul Pierce.  They're both better than Maggette; I'm not saying that they aren't.  But their flaws are similar to Maggette's flaws.  They like to shoot and show "usage" and it seems like putting up numbers comes first.  And now imagine if Vince Carter was on the Clippers, got hurt in 05-06, was replaced by QRoss, and was the 8th man and playing in garbage time.  I think his reaction would be extremely negative, to say the least, and my guess is that you would hate Vince Carter and want to crush his face.

Paul Pierce isn't so different.  And maybe Doc Rivers, now that he has KG and Ray Allen and plenty of scoring, should start a 5ppg defender ahead of Pierce and bring him off the bench, you know, for bench scoring.  Do you think that would be a good idea?

The idea that any NBA player can average 20ppg is absurd.  What do you mean by that?  I think Dunleavy wanted Ross to average 10ppg, and Kaman to average 15ppg, those were crucial parts of his strategy.  They didn't.  We're not talking about averaging 20ppg in high school or D3, and how many times to we have to hear about how Ross was a scorer in college?  We're talking about averaging 20ppg in the NBA.  No, there aren't a whole lot of guys who can do it.

by zhivclip on Aug 8, 2007 11:59 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I can run with this
I hear what you're saying, but I'd like to hear more about a few things before I respond completely so we aren't talking past each other.

What is this "different place" that Maggette comes from?  How does it make him more like Pierce and Carter, even though I'd put him (and sortof non-commitally you as well since you say he is below Pierce and Carter) in the talent tier with Ginobili and Stackhouse?

Specifically, I would not start anyone over Pierce in Boston.  If Maggette was near as good as Pierce, I wouldn't consider it for the Clippers either.

What I mean by anyone can score 20ppg in the NBA is just that.  Any NBA player could average 20ppg.  It might make that team awful to do so, but every player in the NBA, given enough chances, would score 20ppg.  Saying someone scores 20ppg is basically meaningless.  Shawn Marion only averaged 17.5ppg last season.  Would you rather have the Matrix or Maggette?  Is it because the Matrix gives you that extra 0.6ppg?  Or is because he is a much better player overall?

by John R on Aug 8, 2007 12:22 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm speechless
John R - "Any NBA player can score 20 ppg."  Sorry, John R, that's simply untrue.  

by Jax on Aug 8, 2007 12:31 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Its completely true
Any player in the NBA made the first and second option of the offense could score 20ppg.  Let's cheaply and briefly use the example of Andre Iguodala.  A 12.3ppg guy on 8.4 shots per game in 05-06, but out from under AI and Webber for only half a season and boom he's a "star" scoring 18.2 points on 13.0 shots.  But he actually shot a lower FG% while scoring more points.

Same player, just getting more chances.

Ppg is a meaningless stat.

by John R on Aug 8, 2007 1:25 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You missed the point
Andre Iguadola is a budding all star.  Meaning that he, like most all stars, has the ability to score points in bunches.  His FG% went down because he is not a PF or C and was carrying the scoring load at the time.

Your position, such that it is, is apparently that the Q Ross's of the world would score 20 ppg if given the chance.  That's simply incorrect. I'm surprised that I'm taking the time to address this issue.  

by Jax on Aug 9, 2007 1:42 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Trying to clarify, going through some examples
Appreciate the chance to get in deeper, without talking past each other.  And I'd also like to add some other players to the discussion, so if you can think of any that fit into these categories, it would be welcome.

First of all, the "different place" is that of an NBA starter who averages 20 ppg.  

I understand the distinction that you're making about the meaning of ppg and yes, Mark Madsen could average 20 ppg and David Robinson can score 70 against the Clips to win the scoring title.  There's a difference between theory and NBA reality, where only a select group actually does average 20+ ppg.  And within that group, yes, some are more effective and better than others.  Some are simply better players, some are gunners with no conscience, some have a better all around game and some guys can just shoot.  In some cases, it depends on teammates and the style of the team, and guys have different roles within a team.  EBs 20ppg (25 ppg in 05-06) is not the same as Maggette's 20 ppg, clearly.  You might argue (I think this is partly where you're actually coming from) that EB was able to put up 25 ppg and play at such a high level in 05-06 because Maggette was injured.  

In the comparison of players who are similar to Maggette, I'm going to argue that Pierce is obviously better and more effective because he's been alone and the first option for his team; he hasn't played with anybody like EB or KG and Ray Allen.  He's coming from a place where he's gotten all the shots and big scoring/losing games he could want, and I think he's going to be a very good team player this year.  And he'll average 5-7 ppg less this year than in the past, much closer to Maggette's numbers.  And yes, of course no sane person would bring him off the bench as a 6th man.

But back to the "different place" and Ginobili and Stackhouse.  I see it like this.  Maggette played behind Odom and QRichardson and shared minutes with DMiles.  As everybody left he became a starter, developed a scorer's mentality, and he played that role for two seasons, 03-05.  At the beginning of 05 he and Brand were marketed by the team as equals, both having all-star potential.  Brand broke out, and Maggette played well and then got hurt.  The "place" he's coming from is that he's a starter, he worked hard to get there and it didn't happen overnight, and--very importantly--he never had the chance to fulfill his potential and play in a winning mix.  As he was starting and scoring, the Clips had a horrendous PG situation, with the Dooling-Jaric-Overton follies followed by the Jaric-Livingston-Brunson comedy, which featured the Kittles injury and playing SG alongside Bobby Simmons.  I think Maggette was going into 06-07 with real bitterness that he had missed out on most of the fun of the playoff-bound season, that he had something to prove.  I think he wanted to go back to the beginning of 05-06, except now with an improved Brand, improved Kaman, clear leader in Cassell, Livingston healthy, and he wanted to see what he could add to the mix.  The "different place" is that he had both the experience of being one of the best players on the team, and was still ambitious and hungry for defining his role with a real point guard, a great set of talented teammates, and a great coach.  The only problem is that the coach didn't like him, and didn't see his role the same way that Maggette did.

Think about Darius Miles for a moment.  Lottery pick, potential and upside, traded in a surprise and then injured.  Got better, got a contract, but never became a solid frontline player, never approached the meaning-challenged 20ppg, even though his teams would have loved to have seen him put up those numbers.  Maggette could have been like that, he could have gotten by and showed up and done okay, but instead he worked very hard and kept improving and he felt like he had to earn his spot.  And then he couldn't understand why it was taken away from him.

The situations with Pierce, Carter and others are all different. Pierce and Carter are important examples because they represent one side of Maggette's aspirations.  Their game was polished and effective when they came into the league, and they almost immediately became franchise players.  Maggette wanted to become just as effective as they were, but he knew he was playing with EB, so if he could aspire to that and come close he would be in a better situation.  

Other comparisons, perhaps better, are to Richard Jefferson and Igoudala.  Jefferson, playing with Carter and Kidd, didn't need to be an all-star for his team to succeed, but he needed to get as close to that level as he possibly could.  And it wasn't his job to defer to Carter; he had to try to be as effective as he possibly could, Carter would clearly take care of himself, and Kidd would give both of them outstanding opportunities to shine.  Igoudala had talent but wasn't ready to put up 20 ppg in his first couple of seasons, he was on AI's team and just had to work hard and get better.  When AI left, he became the primary option.  

Stackhouse is a good 6th man.  Stackhouse came into the league as a polished scorer and shooter, and he put up good numbers when he was a primary option on a struggling team.  When he was traded and became an effective 6th man, he had already been injured and lost some effectiveness, and he was playing behind more productive (but aging) players, on a stacked, elite team trying to win a championship.  

How about Josh Howard?  He took some time to develop, had to work his way up to starting.  Believe me, I wish Maggette had developed into Josh Howard.  He didn't.  Howard just has a better, more natural all-around game.  

And Shawn Marion.  I have friends who are big Phoenix fans.  Marion's situation is more comparable to Maggette's than you might think, although it represents the opposite case, as Marion was encouraged to play his game by a supportive coach who wanted his best players on the floor.  A lot of Phoenix fans hated Marion, his game, and his contract before D'Antoni, Nash, and Stoudamire arrived.  Remember that just before the Phoenix renaissance, D'Antoni had to figure out how to get Nash, QRichardson, Joe Johnson, Marion, Stoudamire, and a center all on the floor at the same time.  He didn't want to bring Q off the bench (an obvious choice in retrospect, but they had just spent money on him), Stoudamire was a monster talent, and Marion was effective, getting franchise money, and a head case.  D'Antoni broke the mold and put Stoudamire at center.  He adapted, put his best players on the floor, and his team thrived.

Finally, Ginobili.  In any discussion of the Spurs, it's important to remember that they had David Robinson and became an elite team when they had Robinson and Duncan together.  So a guy like Ginobili was joining a winning culture and needed to try to fit in.  He played in Europe and got experience and polished and defined his game.  That's where he became a winner.  I think you might add that Maggette's development was twisted by his early entry into the NBA and then playing for bad teams; it affected Brand differently, they're different people and play different roles and positions.  And having an effective, young PG like Tony Parker playing in an evolved winning system like San Antonio's makes Ginobili's life a lot easier.

In the end, I wish Maggette was better and a better fit.  But I wish, a little more, that Dunleavy was better and had done things differently and he was more like D'Antoni, Phil Jackson, or Greg Popovich.  Maggette is just a player, with strengths and weaknesses.  His decision-making on the court is a big factor, but it's not as crucial as the larger decision about playing time and the rotation and basic strategy, and I just think Dunleavy got it wrong.
             

by zhivclip on Aug 8, 2007 4:04 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Agree
And I applaud your patience in attempting to explain the issue as you have.  It seems obvious to me that there are only a handful of players in the league who could reasonably average 20 ppg within the scope of an offense. Yes such players, like all players, have their weaknesses, but it is up to the coach to meld their strengths.  

John R's point that any NBA player can average 20 ppg is similar to a point he made previously that Corey's points can be replaced by three different players.  Engaging in a debate based on such premises is, in my view, pointless (but perhaps not childish).  

 

by Jax on Aug 8, 2007 4:16 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yes
Feeling you, Jax.  A lot of us are on the same side of this, struggling to figure it out.  JohnR's approach and opinion are valuable I think, just representing the other side.  None of it is ever going to be resolved.

The question now is, can Elton Brand's "meaningless" 20 ppg be replaced by three different players?  I think that it can.  Maggette has to add 8-10 ppg., Kaman 4-6, and the other 4-8 has to come from the starting PF.  I think Davis can do that.  Scoring-wise, the 07-08 Clippers should be the same as the 06-07 Clips with their starting SF scoring 5 ppg.  Cassell needs to play more and should score more without Brand around.  Mobley needs to play a little less and score a little more.

I suppose that somehow the bench scoring has to make up for Maggette's 16 ppg for it to even out, and Knight will score less than Livingston did.  Singleton is gone too.  You start with Ross's 5 ppg.  You add Thornton.  Thomas stays the same, with fewer minutes.  Williams gets more minutes and maybe scores another 82 pts--there's one.  That leaves Korolev to make up the difference, which he can do easily if he plays enough.

And that's not counting MBFGC, who would make the entire season worthwhile no matter what happens, just because it's the Clippers.    

And yet everybody, including me, thinks that they will win 20-25 games if EB plays less than 20 games.  I guess JohnR is right.

by zhivclip on Aug 8, 2007 5:04 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Interesting
In my opinion, Corey can't realistically average 28 to 30 ppg.  Kaman may, however, be able to add 4 to 6 ppg, and if he does, that will mean that he's playing within the offense, not getting into foul trouble, and otherwise contributing.  That would be a fantastic development.  Thornton can conceivably average 10 to 12 ppg, but given the fact that he's a rook and his apparent need for the ball in his hands, I wonder whether he's otherwise ready to contribute at an NBA level.  If Cassell and Knight stay healthy, if Kaman comes back, if Mobley can step it up (not sure he can), and if Thornton can grow up fast, the team might not be quite as bad as we think it's going to be.  There are certainly a good number of "ifs" there.  

by Jax on Aug 8, 2007 6:25 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

So what you're saying is
Other players may be able to pick up EB's production.

And yet when I suggested same about Maggette it was deemed impossible.

Nene Hilarious.

by John R on Aug 9, 2007 11:10 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

No John R
I didn't say it was impossible, I said that it wasn't preferable.  We are trying to figure out how to deal with a bad situation here.  It is far better to have more production from one player than several for a number of reasons.  

by Jax on Aug 9, 2007 1:05 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

No Jax
I completely disagree.

If you want to raise your game, check out this timely post about one player having alot of production.

Now, Im not calling Maggette Pete (or Iverson), but your notions of where productivity should come from don't play anywhere but Sportscenter and All Star Votes.

by John R on Aug 9, 2007 1:22 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You just don't get it
I don't know why I keep repeating myself.  Teams need three consistent scorers in the 15 - 20 ppg range to run an efficient offense.  All good teams have three such players.  You have to have some players who can consistently break down the defense and create scoring options for all, particularly at crunch time.  You have to have some players who can open up the court consistently from the outside.  Note that I'm not talking about the Kobes and AI's of the world.

The Clippers had only two such players last year.  One, Corey, came off the bench for 2/3rds of the year as the team's 8th man.  Not surprising that the team lost.  What is surprising is that the Coach of the team allowed the ridiculousness to go on for so long.  

Your notions of where productivity should (or shouldn't) come from in the NBA reflect a basic misunderstanding of how to win (or lose) basketball games.  

by Jax on Aug 9, 2007 1:49 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

No, its you that doesn't get it
The point you should have learned is that there will ALWAYS be scorers (though I disagree with the premise as well).  When one leaves, another will emerge by sheer force of possessions.

Last year, the Spurs 3rd 15 point scorer *gasp* came off the bench.  The Heat only had 2 players average over 15 points in their championship season.  Same with the Pistons.  Same with the Spurs in the year before the Pistons.  Same with the Lakers in 2 of their 3 championships.

So besides your very idea of how to win basketball games being completely counter to observed reality.  Do you really have anything to contribute?

I've tried to teach you.  I've tried to show you historical facts.  You continue to deny reality.

I, likewise, don't know why you continue to repeat yourself.  Its something we will agree on finally I suppose.

I will grant you this though, Corey would make a GREAT 3rd option.  As a second option, he is...far less than ideal.

The 06-07 Clippers were well within norms here.  In fact, if Corey could have merely seen fit to pass him the ball once more per game, its entirely reasonable to assume Mobley (given his .497 eFG%) would have upped his 13.8 average to 15, completing your hypothetical triumverate.

by John R on Aug 9, 2007 4:32 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Your Posts Only Make You Look Silly
I see that I'm going to have to explain some basic basketball concepts.  

First, there will not always be scorers who can penetrate and create opportunities for all.  Scorers don't always "emerge."  That's why the best players in the game make tens of millions of dollars.  

Second, the Spurs have three scorers, with two in the game at any one time.  The Clippers, on the other hand, only had two.  Your favorite coach put one of the two on the bench and used him as the 8th man for much of the year.  They had little else, which, my friend, is why they lost.

Do you think that any basketball team can win consistently with only one consistent scorer?  Hmm?  

Third, the Heat, in their championship season, had one player averaging 27 ppg, I believe, who is one of the three best players in the game, and another unstoppable force in the middle, with a number of additional consistent players.  Much better roster than the Clippers.  

Fourth, the Pistons have a number of consistent scorers, including Chauncy, Rip, Rasheed, and several others. Do you really think that the Clippers have anywhere near the level of talent of the Pistons?

Fifth, the Lakers had two of the three best players in the game.  Again, very different than the Clippers.  

Sixth, Corey may be less than ideal as a second option, but, since the Clippers had no second option other than Corey, and "gasp" no third option at all, why, oh why, didn't your favorite coach start him?  

Finally, blaming the Clippers failures last season on Corey's lack of passing (a fallacy, if you would check stats) is like blaming Abraham Lincoln for the US' lack of success in Iraq.  

Come on, John R, surely you must have something useful to say.  Dig down.

by Jax on Aug 9, 2007 5:53 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Slight correction
When I say Maggette can add 8-10 pts, I'm putting that on top of the 16 he averaged last year, not his standard 20ppg.  So my formula is Maggette 25-26, Kaman 15, Thorton 6-8, etc.

The trick to ppg is that you can't have empty games.  Maggette is very likely to average 20, but in the Clippers newly desperate situation he'll need to have games of 30,35, and 40 to balance out games of 20,15, and 10 to get to 25.  Chances are, as the Clips primary scoring option, he won't have more than a handful of games where he scores 10 pts or less.  Fewer of those, and more games of 25+, obviously gets you to the higher average, and that's the way Brand did it.

Kaman is much more unlikely to get to 15 ppg.  That's why I belabor the simple point.  Kaman has shown a genuine ability to disappear.  It will be harder, of course, without Brand around, but increased opportunities could just as easily result in more of those 1-9 and 2-12 starts, with 3-6 missed layups and 2 foot shots, which we've all seen so many times.  Those empty and even bizarre stretches where the ball won't go in the basket are much more likely from Kaman than from Maggette.

by zhivclip on Aug 9, 2007 12:27 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

What
was Corey's average ppg as a starter last year?  

by Jax on Aug 9, 2007 1:19 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

20.3
That's the 29 games after the ASB.  He started three other games, but I didn't bother to factor them in.

by ClipperSteve on Aug 9, 2007 1:44 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

And
That's while playing a stepped-up role as playmaker that he'd never been given before.  Not bad.  Right John R?

by Jax on Aug 9, 2007 1:50 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

That's what I figured you meant
So here's what I can boil all of that about Maggette to, in the interest of brevity:

he never had the chance to fulfill his potential and play in a winning mix... think you might add that Maggette's development was twisted by his early entry into the NBA and then playing for bad teams;

So, the Clippers rotations and play should be dictated, at least in some tiny part, by Corey's decisions as a young man.  I know this is other's opinions as well, that because Corey has feelings, that they should be coddled.  While it is definitely the coach's job to get the best out of his players, this is not always accomplished by appeasement.

You mentioned Phil Jackson.  He didn't seem too interested in feelings when he called the final play for Kukoc and Pippen refused to come off the bench.  But Kukoc hit that shot and the Bulls won that game.  (And at any rate, hasn't Phillip been exposed as a fraud at this point?  I mean, in any season in which he doesn't have 2 or 3 of the top-15 players in the league (all-time?), even if he has 1 and a top-50, his team is average just like the rest.)

Your Ginobili analogy is apt, but goes to my point.  Like you say, he was already a winner.  It does help to come into a healthy situation, but he made the DECISION to be a part of it.  To argue the other side is to say, Dunleavy should do what Corey wants because Corey's development was probably stunted by these factors, which in some cases were his own choices.

There was every reason to believe for Corey to believe that he was rejoining a healthy situation before this season, wasn't there?  Doesn't really matter if its confidence or pouting or what.  He didn't know how to cope with the situation.

I refuse to blame Dunleavy because Corey;

  1. Sees himself as something he isn't
  2. Refuses to adjust to changing circumstances
  3. Made decisions in his own life that led to 1 and 2
Its those three factors that make Corey most like Pierce and Carter in the WORST ways to be like them, and least like Stackhouse and Ginobili in the BEST ways to be like that group.

Its the fact that Maggette still has a higher usage than EB, that demonstrates this fact the best, and demonstrates best how he is a danger to what the Clippers are trying to do.

I'd put 05-06 Cassell in that group with Maggette, Ginobili and Stackhouse, and how many times did you hear Sam talk about feeding the Horse?  How many times do you hear Maggette talk about it?

He never does.  He's never gotten it and its that "different place" that means he might not ever.

by John R on Aug 9, 2007 11:09 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

So
John R, do you have any criticisms of MDSr whatsoever?  If so, please state what they are.  

by Jax on Aug 9, 2007 1:07 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Distraction attempts
Everyone is imperfect.  But this post is called The Maggette-festo (which also sounds like a delicious dish) so talking about Dunleavy's non-Maggette faults would be off-topic.

by John R on Aug 9, 2007 1:26 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Actually, it's directly on point
Please, John R, let's hear some specifics about MDSr's imperfections, not limited to his handling of COrey.  Surely there must be something . . .

by Jax on Aug 9, 2007 1:52 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Distractions
He wears weird suits.  Happy?

You know by me writing this its just to prove how obviously you want to steer this off-topic and turn this into a discussion about me and ad homimem and all that.

Start a Diary called Dunleavy sux lol, or better yet a blog.  There are plenty of avenues for that pointless sillyness.

Maybe its not your fault, but whenever you post, I see that juvenile picture.

by John R on Aug 9, 2007 2:26 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Your attempt to attack the messenger
won't work. I would respectfully suggest that you stop calling my posts "juvenile" and summon the courage to analyze this issue head on.    

Based on your posts, it appears that you have no criticisms whatsoever of MDSr, whether they be related to Maggette, his coaching of the team last year, his offensive and defensive schemes, or anything else about him.    

Frankly, it's a bit difficult to take your arguments seriously when you refuse to even consider the possibility that MDSr contributed in any way to these important issues, which all relate to Maggette.

I'm not suggesting that MDSr "sucks" as you put it.  What I am suggesting, based on factual analysis, is that MDSr's coaching style and decisionmaking factors into not only the discussion regarding Maggette but also the larger issue of where we think this team is going.  

Which is the point of this discussion.  

   

by Jax on Aug 9, 2007 2:37 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs