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The Maggette-festo

During the past year, I've posted many, many times on coach Mike Dunleavy Sr's handling of Corey Maggette.  I wrote about it before the season began, while Corey was sitting on the bench, and after he had been re-instated as a starter.  I've always planned to write one big post explaining everything from ClipperSteve's perspective.  But the task has always been too daunting:  where to begin?  Besides, I still don't understand it.  So I could recap what happened, and re-state things I've said before, but what's the point in that?

When a Maggette debate erupted in the comments of an innocuous post recently (as often happens), I felt there were good points being made on both sides.  I started to make a comment myself, but that comment kept growing and growing.  Suddenly, I realized I was writing my big, off-season Maggette post.  My Maggette-festo.  

I'm more or less finished with it now, and here it is before you.  I have to warn you: it's very disappointing.  At least it is to me.  There are no light bulbs.  No 'eureka!' moments.  In the final analysis, MDsr had an interesting idea about putting his best defender in the starting lineup and bringing instant offense off the bench, he seems to have gotten fixated on the idea, and consequently he stubbornly hung on to it way too long.  Was it a battle of wills?  I don't know, but the end result was that the Clippers never started their best team the entire season - the three games after Maggette became the starting small forward and before Livingston was lost for the season, Kaman was sick with the flu.    

Here's how I got dragged into the debate today:

ZhivClip: He played poorly in the beginning of the season because he was the 8th or 9th man and wasn't in the starting lineup.
John R: As soon as someone can explain how this makes sense, I'll be able to hear the haters.  Until then, its all an illogical mess.

From my perspective, it is indeed, all an illogical mess.  And I do mean, ALL of it.  It is in fact, far easier to explain Corey's poor performance as a 6th man than to explain MDsr's behavior last season - stubbornly refusing to start Maggette for two-thirds of the season, driving his value down before the trade deadline, finally inserting him into the starting lineup AFTER the deadline had passed and AFTER Corey publicly blew up for the first time.  Explain that.  I mean, seriously.  He plays a season-low 17 minutes in New York on Feb. 6 (compared to 22 minutes for Doug Christie), trashes the coach to the LA beat writers after the game, and finds himself back in the starting lineup for good 2 weeks later on Feb. 20.  I guess he should have trashed the coach sooner.  How does any of this make sense?

I'm not trying to be argumentative.  I respect both camps in the Maggette debate.  John R, one of his biggest critics, is also one of the best and most insightful hoops analysts we have in ClipsNation.  But it's clear that the situation is not as simple as 'Corey would be an all star if only MDsr didn't hold him back' on one end of the spectrum or 'Corey is a cancer' on the other end.

As for the question as to how Corey's production could have suffered playing against second string defenders without him slacking in his effort, I believe I can sum up the answer in one word: confidence.  It seems fairly clear, in hindsight, that however the '6th man' idea was communicated to Corey, it was not done well.  Nobody ever 'sold' Corey on the concept, yet he was the good soldier in the early going and said he would do it.  I personally find it amazing that MDsr didn't seize on the break that Cat Mobley gave him last October 12 when he offered to come off the bench.  We can preach all we want about how Corey is part of the team and he is paid a lot of money and how should do whatever the coach asks of him - but a big part of a coach's job is managing egos (just ask Phil Jackson), and you ignore it at your own peril.  Cat handed MDsr a 'get out of jail free' card on this one, but he stuck to his dubious vision.

So, going into the season, Corey is not convinced it's a good plan.  We can extrapolate from there that Corey felt slighted; that he believed that MDsr was disrespecting him by demoting him.  Now put yourself in Corey's shoes for a moment.  In case you don't have a Play Corey T-shirt, let me remind you that his points per game had increased every year he was in the league for his first six seasons, peaking at 22.2 in 04-05.  That 22.2 points, by the way, was 13th best in the league that year.  The 12 names ahead of him that year were all all-stars.  When he got injured on Dec. 5, he had been averaging 22.4 points in his first 12 games and the team was 12-5.  Why are we even having a discussion about whether he's a starter?  How many consistent 20 point a game players in the NBA don't start?  But I digress.

It is an adage in sport that a player does not lose his starting position due to injury - yet that is precisely what happened to Maggette.  He spent most of the rest of the season trying to get 100% healthy while coming off the bench.  Then during an admittedly terrific playoff run, Ross started, Maggette was 6th man, and the 'defense first' head coach got fixated on an idea.  

Confidence.  Confidence is a funny thing.  It's certainly easy enough to say that Corey was disgruntled at being the 6th man, and therefore his effort lagged, and that's why he was not as productive in the role.  Even if you don't like the touchy-feely-ness of 'confidence', ask yourself this question:  are you more productive in your work when you are happy in your work?  Does it mean you are intentionally slacking off when you are not?  I watched every game and I never saw the guy 'dogging' it.  Did you?  I saw him make plenty of bonehead plays, but I don't know how you attribute that to lack of effort.  But, at the risk of slipping into psychobabble (a word which spellcheck unexpectedly is allowing), it seems to me that Corey was desperately trying to prove to the coach how good he was, to win back his starting job, feeling the pressure, and making mistakes.  Not only had he been demoted to a backup role without ever being convinced it was the right move - as I've pointed out before, he wasn't even the 6th man in reality.  He was coming off the bench AFTER Livingston and Thomas and playing fewer minutes as well.  He was the 8th man.  So, before your injury, you were averaging over 20 ppg, arguably headed into All Star territory statistically, and suddenly you're coming off the bench, and all the 'good of the team' and '6th man of the year award' talk looks like so much bullshit because you're not even the first guy off the bench!  

John R wrote:  "Having seen Maggette play for so many years, my observation was that Corey WAS dogging it, and often.  Not necessarily physically, because that would hurt his personal stats, but definitely mentally.  It was clear to me that his time spent on the court was filled with indifference."

Was he disgruntled?  No doubt.  But I'm not sure how anyone, even the eagle-eyed John R, can 'see' someone 'mentally dogging it.'  Of course, this is all an esoteric, theoretical and ultimately semantic argument - one man's indifference is another man's lack of confidence.  But I think we're in agreement that Corey was providing plenty of physical effort - his results were sub-par for some other reason.  By way of proof I would point to his rebounding numbers during his time as a 6th man.  Rebounding is without question an 'effort' stat, and Corey's rebounding numbers while he was coming off the bench were easily the best of his career.

So I still maintain that it was confidence, not lack of effort, that was effecting Corey's game.  Can confidence really have that big an impact?  If you've ever actually played basketball, then you know that it can.  But I'll give a couple of recent examples as well.  (1) Last season, Matt Barnes made 106 three point field goals out of 290 attempts (37%), after being 10 for 50 (20%) in his three prior NBA seasons.  Did he work on his three point shot in the off-season?  No doubt he did.  But I would submit that by far the biggest factor in his improvement (and Barnes has said as much himself) is the confidence he had to take the shot, instilled in him by a coach who told him to shoot the ball when he was open.  (2) The 2004 USA Olympic team was roundly criticized for not having enough shooters, and indeed it was a major weakness of the team.  But Iverson, Marbury, Jefferson, Marion, James and Anthony are all more than capable of making a three-pointer, particularly from the international distance.  So why did they shoot a mere 31% from the three point line (their opponents shot 44%)?  Because coach Larry Brown told them not to shoot, and was more than willing to sit someone next to him on the bench for any shot that he determined to be ill-advised.  

[The three-point shooting examples above are also apropos to Maggette's situation last season.  Never known as an outstanding three point shooter, he was nonetheless shooting 32.6% for his career (just below the magical 1-in-3 mark that is the mathematical equivalent of 50% shooting on two point field goals) entering last season.   He proceeded to make just 2 out of 25 three point attempts in the month of November, prompting a chorus of 'JUST STOP SHOOTING' howls from detractors who felt that one month of data was more reliable than 7 season's worth.  As a starter after the All-Star break, Maggette made 8 of 22 threes.  Was he trying to miss in November?  Was he missing because he was 'dogging it'?  Three point shooting is not Corey Maggette's most effective weapon, but to the extent that he has the confidence to shoot it and a green light from his coach, it can help set up the rest of his game when used appropriately.]

But even if we take John's hypothesis at face value that Corey was indifferent, what does it mean?  Well, it would seem to me that one part of a coach's job, a really big part in fact, is motivating his players.  If indeed Corey was ineffective because he was indifferent, MDsr has to share the blame for not motivating him.  Now, if you have 15 guys under contract, and they all want to start, and they're going to be indifferent and unmotivated if they don't start, then you've got a big problem, one that is impossible to solve.  But Corey Maggette was a 7 year veteran, the longest-tenured Clipper, and a starter for the better part of five seasons.  There are reasonable expectations and unreasonable expectations.  If Corey felt de-motivated by his de-motion, it's not surprising.  MDsr had an obligation to find a way to motivate him.

We've speculated at length about the bizarr-o way that MDsr refused to start Maggette for two-thirds of the season, then suddenly and without warning inserted him into the starting lineup on a full-time basis for the rest of the season.  Most of the supposed explanations I've heard simply don't ring true.  During one broadcast after his re-emergence, Ralph said "He's getting the kind of minutes he wanted because he's playing the right way."  I'm sorry but, no, it's simply not so.  He played 22 minutes off the bench in the final game before the All Star Break.  He played 40 minutes as a starter in the first game after the All Star Break.  If the increase in minutes were indeed a result of a change in his game, the trend would emerge gradually, with increased minutes off the bench preceding his re-insertion as a starter.  This was a decision, taken for whatever reason, during the All Star Break.  In all likelihood it was on the strong recommendation of Donald T. Sterling.  Obviously Corey responded well to the decision, but the decision to start him and increase his minutes came before any uptick in Corey's productivity.

Steve Springer once wrote in the LA Times that Corey had finally earned a starting role and more minutes by working hard in practice.  A notoriously hard-worker, the implication that he did not ALWAYS practice hard only made Corey shake his head and mutter.  (By the way, this is another indication of the frighteningly poor communications in Clipper-land - MDsr and Maggette communicating via a reporter for the LA Times.)

Finally, during one broadcast, Mike Smith said that MDsr had pulled Corey aside during the All Star Break, and explained that he was going to put him back in the starting lineup, and what he wanted Corey to do.  According to Smith, he discussed the aspects of Corey's game where he wanted to see improvement (defensive rotations, creating opportunities for teammates, staying under control, shot selection, etc.) and asked him to work on those things.  Lo and behold, he improved in all of those aspects as a starter in the final 2 months of the season.  Now this explanation seems at least to be supported by observation, but there's one big question that remains:  What the hell took so long?  If a heart-to-heart conversation in late February was all it took to get this situation resolved, where was that conversation in October?  Five months after training camp, MDsr explains what his expectations are?  No wonder the team was so screwed up!  I would be less inclined to believe this explanation (surely MDsr can't have been that poor a communicator) if the dynamic were not so clearly dysfunctional for so much of last season.  The evidence that was available certainly smacked of a dearth of communication - I myself was pleading for a closed door meeting more than two months into the season.

[As an aside, this latest debate erupted from a comment criticizing Ralph and Mike for adhering too closely to the 'party line' as regards l'affaire Maggette last season.  I don't disagree that their tendency to preach the gospel according to MDsr is lamentable, but it is standard practice for broadcasters.  They are, after all, employed by the team.  To question the decisions of the organization would be to criticize their own bosses.  Ralph and Mike remain far superior to the vast majority of broadcast teams to which I've been exposed (Joel and Stu? Puh-lease), despite their understandable tendency to be MDsr apologists.]

One of the strangest factors in this whole saga is the allocation of garbage time minutes.  Before the All Star Break, when Maggette was coming off the bench, he was always on the floor with Korolev and Davis and Ewing after the game had been decided.  After the All Star Break, it was Ross mopping up.  Now, I suppose this is as simple as saying that the starter is playing the bulk of his minutes in the first and third quarters, while the backup tends to play more in the second and fourth, so it was only logical for Maggette to be on the floor in the fourth quarter while he was coming off the bench.  But surely we can apply a little more common sense to our substitution patterns than that.  I was embarrassed for Corey to watch him playing alongside the scrubs - I can only imagine how he felt about it.  And to pre-suppose that MDsr simply didn't realize that this might be taken as a sign of disrespect is no answer.  Which is worse?  That he would do it knowing full well how it looked, or that he would be so obtuse as to not realize?

So assuming MDsr is NOT that obtuse, the change in garbage time minutes from before the All Star Break to after is perhaps more telling than the fact that Corey was once again starting.  With 12 players in uniform, in theory the last 5 are in the game to mop up, and the top 7 are resting.  On a team like the Clippers, with a well-defined top 8, one of the top guys had to play.  Why was it Maggette?  It's another indication that in MDsr's mind, Corey wasn't even the 6th man - he was the 8th man.  Besides, what better way than garbage time to send a message?  Using playing time to make a point with a player while the game is in doubt is a tricky business - the coach is going to be judged on wins and losses after all, so you risk making a point at the expense of your own skin.  But after the game is decided, you can do any old symbolic thing you want to, risk free.  By playing Maggette during garbage time, MDsr was saying, not so subtly, "You need to work on your game."    

I may be accused of overanalyzing in this case, but it also seems evident to me that Corey's game is especially ill-suited to garbage time.  Corey Maggette is a genius for getting to the basket and drawing fouls.  He's been accused of being a bull in a china shop, and it's not an inapt analogy.  But it is a grueling style of play, and he's suffered his share of injuries as a result.  At the end of a blow out, when the final outcome is no longer in doubt, there is no reason to go crashing into the lane, risking injury in pursuit of a foul call.  Furthermore, NBA refs put their whistles in their pockets during garbage time.  They're not stupid.  No one wants to be there any longer than they have to.  The game is over.  Why prolong it?  When Corey went 0 for 10 in garbage time against Seattle last year, it was embarrassing for everyone.  But let's face it - he wouldn't have taken 10 jump shots in the fourth quarter of a close game.  He would have taken 15 free throws.  

And don't lump me in the anti-Ross camp simply because I think Q should be on the floor during garbage time instead of Maggette.  Maggette is a 7 year vet making $7M per.  Q is a 3 year vet making $700K.  Call it the privileges of rank.  Besides, in contrast to Maggette's game which is ill-suited to garbage time, Q benefits greatly from touches and scoring opportunities in game situations.  I love Ross, and think there continues to be an incredibly valuable role for him on the team.  I could easily make an argument that Q should be starting - but it would be in Mobley's spot.

I could toss out lots of statistics to support the 'Maggette should be a starter' position, but of course statistics can be made to support almost any position.  Besides, I don't even think that's the discussion we're having at this point.  There simply is no debate that Corey played better as a starter than he did coming off the bench last season, in almost every way, nor is there any debate as to whether or not he will be starting.  I must say though, one advantage to MDsr making the switch precisely at the All Star Break - it's really easy to look at his splits from before and after.  

Of course he was more productive in basically every category, but a 31% increase in playing time (from 27.4 min per game to 35.9) will do that for you.  But when you look at the numbers per 48 minutes, a few things really jump out.  For one thing, he was scoring at a similar clip - 26 points per 48 pre-ASB, 27.1 post ASB.  (He led the team in points per 48 all season.)  But, he was significantly more efficient as a starter - shooting 49.6% versus 42.5%.  So he scored more, in fewer shot attempts.  Meanwhile, he significantly increased his assist numbers, to a career best 5.5 assists per 48, versus 3.5 before the all star break.  His rebounding numbers actually suffered, but that has more to do with how well he was rebounding before.  He remains a great rebounder at the 3 (even better at the 2 of course), averaging more rebounds and more rebounds per minute than the much taller Tim Thomas last season and more than most taller 3's including All Stars like Carmelo Anthony and Rashard Lewis.  His turnovers remained identical per 48 minutes, and clearly this is an area where we would all like to see improvement.  But the nature of Corey's game on offense is always going to create a high number of turnovers, both on offensive fouls and by simply losing the ball.  It's an area that needs work, but it comes with the territory.  Look at Dwyane Wade's turnover numbers.  

Finally, after all of that craziness last year, MDsr came out and declared to Bill Plaschke that Corey would be a starter, fully 2 and half months before training camp:  

He and Dunleavy have long clashed about Maggette's defense. Dunleavy has decided to swallow his tongue and leave him in the starting lineup anyway. It's up to Maggette to reward him by becoming a more complete player.

"He will be a starter, for sure," Dunleavy said. "We're fine. Things ended up well for us."

After all that.  We're fine.  We're fine thanks.  How are you?  It's a little like Rosanne Rosannadanna:  'Never mind.'  

To say that the Clippers would have made the playoffs last season had Maggette been a starter from the beginning is pointless and childish.  I may think they would have, but we'll never know because it is unknowable.  Ultimately, there were issues with the team, and the rift between Maggette and MDsr certainly contributed, but to what extent is yet another thing we'll never know.  Of course a measly two extra wins would have put them in the post-season, but they weren't getting out of the first round with Jason Hart at the point.  

It will be particularly interesting to see what happens in the early part of this season while Brand is out rehabbing his Achilles.  Not only will Corey be a starter, he'll be the featured scorer on offense, the 'go to' guy.  Unfortunately, it's always difficult to correlate individual statistics directly to team success.  It's very likely that Corey's offensive numbers will be through the roof, while the team loses a lot of games.  If that's the case, the Maggette debate will rage on.  

In a realistic best case scenario (not a pie in the sky, Clippers lead the Pacific despite Brand's absence and Maggette makes the All Star team fantasy), I'd like to see this team back together before the end of the season.  I'd like to see Livingston, Brand and Maggette on the floor at the same time.  Because if, as I suspect, Corey averages 20+ points per game this season, he's going to opt out of his contract and expect a raise (from someone).  The Clippers might be willing to give him that raise if they've seen the core group together again, and liked what they've seen.  Remember, Corey is still only 27 years old.  But fate (and MDsr) have conspired to keep us from seeing a healthy and motivated Maggette and a healthy Livingston on the same floor for two seasons and counting.  It may be of course that Livingston will never be whole; but the real shame would be if this core group of young, talented and SIGNED players that Elgin Baylor and MDsr first put together in 2004 (Brand, Maggette, Kaman and Livingston) are broken up before they've ever really had a chance.

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Can we just put . . . .
PG: Jared Jordan
SG: Kitty Kat
SF: Corey Maggette
PF: Al Thornton
C: Chris Kaman

. . . . that as our starting lineup next season?

Mix of youth and experience. Jordan could be a reliable point guard in the future, so let him see considerable time there. His defense cannot be worse than Sam Cassell, that's for sure. Our first guys off of the bench should be Yaroslav Korolev, Sam Cassell, Brevin Knight, Tim Thomas, and Aaron Williams in that order. I just want Thornton to be a starter right away. Don't let him rot on the bench like we did with Korolev, who actually has serious talent if they would play him in situations where it would be better suited instead of at the end of a damn blowout where he just doesn't give a damn.

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill

by FlyByKnight on Aug 8, 2007 1:59 AM PDT reply actions  

Thanks, Steve
I really appreciate the time you put into that post and the insight it reflects.  You are clearly a knowledgeable, articulate and passionate Clipper fan.  

I would like to expand on a couple of points you made.  First, the Clippers did not have enough solid scorers last year. Kaman and Mobley were huge disappointments in that regard.  This is one of the major reasons why people think Corey played better as a starter than as a reserve.  Additional scorers in the lineup at the same time creates more offensive opportunities for all.  When Corey came in last year, EB was generally out of the game.  This also affects "confidence."  The players knew this, and it had to affect their belief in MDSr's system.

Second, I respectfully disagree with your assessment that the thought that the Clippers would have made the playoffs had Corey started all year (everything else being equal) is pointless and childish.  Obviously this is my opinion and I believe that it is based on sound logic.  The Clippers finished only a couple of games out of the playoffs last year.  I believe that they would have won at least five more games had Corey started the entire year, primarily because the offense would have run so much better and been more consistent and the team would have had much more confidence as a whole.  

Of course, my opinion is not something that can be objectively verified or is "knowable" (just like we don't know for sure what would have happened had MDSr not put a cold Ewing on Raja), but I would disagree with your characterization that it is "pointless" or "childish."  In fact, I believe that it is very helpful to engage in such debates when we are analyzing the performance of a coach who is being paid several million dollars a year to make such decisions based in large part on the hard-earned monies paid by fans like us.  This is not some minor esoteric issue about substitution patterns but rather what would have happened had the coach decided to start his second best player (and his second of two consistent scorers) instead of relegating the second best player to 8th man status for the bulk of the year.  

Jax

by Jax on Aug 8, 2007 9:29 AM PDT reply actions  

Point taken...
I actually changed the wording of that sentence several times.  I stand by the accuracy of the statement, but in retrospect it came across as more pejorative than I intended.

It is childish, in the sense that it is the kind of thing a child would do.  But children do lots of wonderful things, so the word doesn't have to be pejorative (though of course in standard usage it is).  Perhaps I should have gone with 'childlike'.  But I think we agree on the big picture, even if you understandably disagree with my wording.  I still say it is pointless - we're not going to change anything, though in that sense I suppose my entire blog is pointless other than as an outlet for my ramblings.  We can't know what would have happened, although we both strongly believe that it would have been worth a couple of victories.  And passionate fans enjoy discussing what might have been, so I suppose that's the point right there.  (Hell, one more win against either the Lakers or the Warriors would have meant a playoff berth.)  I understand your objection, but I think overall we're in agreement.

The Clippers did indeed struggle on offense last season.  However, I think that's a big reason why MDsr liked the Maggette 6th man thing... he thought he could keep one scorer on the floor at all times, bringing Maggette when Brand rested.  The weird thing is he couldn't seem to figure out that not starting didn't have to necessarily mean fewer minutes.  27 minutes as a reserve vs. 36 minutes as a starter was the real issue.  He could bring Corey off the bench all season for all I care, as long as he gave him 36 minutes.

 

by Steve Perrin on Aug 8, 2007 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

Your analysis will always fail for one reason
The point of an NBA game isn't to score as many points as possible, but to score more points than the other team.  This is further restricted by the fact that both teams will get almost exactly the same amount of chances to score.

The 2003-2004 Pistons won 54 games and embarrassed Shaq and Kobe on the way to the NBA championship scoring 90ppg.

The 2006-2007 Los Angeles Clippers averaged 95.6, more than other recent NBA Champions (and less than others of course).

The problem isn't pure ppg.  The problem is far more complex.  In 2007 and 2005, only Duncan averaged 20 for the NBA Champion Spurs, and just that.  20.0ppg and 20.3ppg respectively.  Ppg might be the single most overrated stat in the world.

(The funny thing about that old tired Ewing line, is that Ewing was the Clippers best perimeter defender.  In version 1 of that study he was the best, period.  Dunleavy understood the play PHO would call, he got his best defender in the game on the shooter, and his defender played it as perfectly as he could.  But part of basketball is luck, and instead of a brilliant read of the game and perfect substitution, some remember it as a bonehead play.  Nicely illustrates the limits in understanding some folks possess.  Misconstruing bad luck as a boneheaded move.  Simple answers for the simple-minded, I guess.)(I tend to think version 1 more closely matches observation, but its definitely a good road to go down regardless of outcome.)

by John R on Aug 8, 2007 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

The problem
The problem with your argument, JohnR, is that the Clippers lost way too many games and played like crap, far below their potential.  There's a time and place for conservative and defense-oriented play.  Dunleavy took the Clippers very far with it, but he stepped over the edge.

You can say all you want that San Antonio and Detroit are successful because of their conservative style of play, but you're saying it while the Clippers fail to make the playoffs and they're vastly inferior to teams like Phoenix, and now Golden State.  Dallas had the whole package, depth, defense, and scoring, and they got their asses kicked.

It's a game, and there are lots of ways to play it.  The scoreboard shows if you were right or wrong.  That's your point, not mine.  And the scoreboard shows that that Dunleavy was wrong, and the Clippers regressed.  The reason is because he didn't put his best players on the floor.  And because he didn't make changes quickly enough even when it was obvious that he was wrong.

by zhivclip on Aug 8, 2007 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

I disagree
The reason is because he didn't put his best players on the floor.  

I disagree with your premise and your conclusion.  I could show you how he did in fact put his best players on the floor, and how lineups chosen by the coach were the least of the reasons the Clippers regressed, but I won't waste my time because it is clear your mind has been made up.

Consider the fact that without Maggette available at all last year, the Clippers played .500 ball, but this year they played sub-.500 with his getting some minutes, and you will see, in brief, why your reasoning is inadequate to explain the reasons the team regressed.

In fact, given that the team played basically the same without him last year as with him some this year, I guess one could make the point that playing time for Corey Maggette is largely inconsequential, but that wouldn't be any fun, would it?

by John R on Aug 8, 2007 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Great post
Excellent analysis, prescient stats, fair and balanced (not in that tragic Fox News sort of way...).  Very nicely done.

by spartacus on Aug 8, 2007 10:22 AM PDT reply actions  

This will be unpopular so I'll keep it brief
Rather than get into the functional difference of why his game was suffering pre-ASB...

Assuming everything you say is true, what you have described is an individual who can be successful only given a specific set of circumstances.  The situation you have described is also not significantly different than what Ginobili has endured playing behind Grounded Brett Barry and Ancient Mike Finley.  So something else must distinguish them.

Taking everything I have observed and what has been described in the Maggette-festo, I can only conclude the difference is that, as much as I would like to crush his face for helping to ruin the game, Ginobili is a Winner, and Maggette is something else.  Its hard to win a championship when you team is counting on something elses.

ANY NBA player can be a 20ppg scorer.  That alone is not an accomplishment.  You just gotta crank that usage up high enough.

Let me drop one stat on you though.  I think even the biggest of Maggette fans must admit that Elton Brand is the best player the Clippers employ.  For a guy who supposedly lost confidence and was suffering on the bench, how is it that he STILL ended up with a higher Usage Rate than EB?  For those unfamiliar with advanced stats, the more Maggette plays, the less EB touches the ball.  It should then be not surprising that Maggette minutes correlate so closely with Clippers losses.

But its definitely Maggette's team to start next season.  Too late to do anything about that now.  Are you prepared for the team's best player to be throwing up 2-17 9 turnover outings?  Says here that in the ATL game that EB missed, Corey played 22 minutes, went 2-10 with 3 turnovers scoring only 5 points and managing to cram in 4 fouls.  Welcome to our November.

by John R on Aug 8, 2007 10:41 AM PDT reply actions  

Advanced Stats...
Pick your advanced stat, right?  Usage rates don't look good for Corey.  Points per shot, made free throws per 48 minutes, PER of 18.67 (47 in the league, easily second on the team, significantly higher as a starter)...  lots of stats look GREAT.

I'm not sure I agree that Maggette's minutes correlate to Clipper losses.  How have you come up with that particular stat?  Bear in mind also that my point about garbage time would factor heavily into that discussion.  But we don't have to normalize for garbage time to know that the Clippers were 25-28 at the all star break, and 15-14 after, playing most of that time without Shaun Livingston and essentially without Sam Cassell.  15-14 is dismal compared to our expectations, but I think you would agree with me that the team played by far it's best basketball after the ASB.  We don't need stats to prove that, just our eyes.

As for your point about Ginobili, it is well taken.  But let's face facts... Corey Maggette is not Manu Ginobili.  The other thing is, and I've made this point before, winning makes everyone feel a lot better.  The people who tell me 'Manu doesn't have any problem coming off the bench' would have a much better case if the Spurs were 25-28 at the all star break.  Conversely, MDsr would not have been hailed as a genius for bringing Corey off the bench if the Clippers had been 35-18 at the break.  The crazy part isn't that he tried it.  It's that he didn't realize it wasn't working.  But if it was easy to replicate everything the Spurs do, then they wouldn't be the dominant franchise in the NBA right now.

As for 2-10 with 3 turnovers, for every game like that, I can give you a two like 3/24 vs. the Wizards - 29 points on 9 shots, 5 assists, 3 turnovers.

Maybe I am describing an individual who can only be successful in a given set of circumstances.  So what?  Give him the circumstances.  It's not an exercise in character building.  It's a basketball team, and if you're the coach and you have a player who can be more or less successful depending on the circumstances, of course you would strive to provide the circumstances.  Right?

by Steve Perrin on Aug 8, 2007 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

correcting my comment...
MDsr would not have been hailed as a genius for bringing Corey off the bench if the Clippers had been 35-18 at the break.

by Steve Perrin on Aug 8, 2007 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

Ill back off the correlation slightly
That came out of this discussion.  Besides the main post, please also see the d.han comment at 15:31.  The more Corey shot, the less the Clippers won.  The more Corey plays, the more Corey shoots.  The more Mobley scored and Ross played, the more the Clippers won.  A certain picture is painted by all this.

To Corey's upside, obviously.  And it was that Corey that I was a huge fan of.  Even in the playoffs, was Staples ever more rocking than when he hit the game winner in 2OT to beat the Heat in 2004-2005?  But that Seattle game really moved me out of liking him-liking him.  What it illustrated to me was that as he gets older and players start to come in more athletic than him due to youth or other factors, he is going to start to struggle more and more.  That Atlanta game probably was due to how long and athletic the Hawks are, as well.

Its that volitility that indicates, to me at least, that he can't be the focal point of a winning team.  The circumstances HAVE changed around the Clippers, and, as far as basketball timelines, permanently.  They have gone to a plodding style with EB and Kaman.  MDSr is a much of that core as Shaun, EB and Chris (and Ross and Mobley for that matter).  How does a guy who might score 15 points on 4 shots or 0 points in wasting 10 possessions fit into that?  MDSr. thought he fit by putting him in the Microwave, in part I'm sure, to maximize the damage Great Corey can inflict while minimizing the damage Turnover Corey could inflict.

But next season we will get maximum volitility until EB returns.  So he will have the chance to single-handedly turn wins into losses and vice versa.  For all the theories out there about how to win basketball games, there is one word I don't associate with them: uncertainty.  Corey Maggette is uncertainty made flesh.

I'm all for Corey's game evolving.  But if the options are change what the Clippers are doing to make it work for Corey or trade him for maximum value at the deadline, I vote for shipping him out.

by John R on Aug 8, 2007 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Stats are funny...
Kevin gave us this on Corey:

When recording 10 FTA or greater: 16-11

d. han gave us this:

Games where FGA were 10 or more: W-15, L-30
FG%: 44.63 on totals, 25.8 minutes/game

Games where FGA were 9 or less: W-22, L-8
FG%: 47.63 on totals, 33.5 minutes/game

Note that the FG% differential is far less significant than the pre and post ASB numbers.  FWIW.  

So we want Corey to not take too many shots, and get to the line.  Interesting.  Guess what?  The refs have a HUGE impact on Corey Maggette's life.  If they're giving him calls, Clips win.  If not, Clips lose.

I remember when Kevin first posted this, particularly the Mobley scoring thing.  I noted this trend early in the season (on Dec 5 in fact) "Is it my imagination, or is this season becoming a 'As Cat goes, so go the Clippers' thing?".  There's just one problem.  Mobley always got minutes.  He either scored or not, usually not.  What do I do with this information as a fan?  What would I do with it as a coach?  'I need Mobley to score 20 points for the team to win.  I know what I'll do, I'll play him 36 minutes a game, 20% more minutes than anyone on the team not named Elton.  Oops, we went 40-42 and missed the playoffs.'

by Steve Perrin on Aug 8, 2007 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't disagree with any of that
But it all goes to volitility.  To bring Wade's name back into it, he's largely in the same boat: one season he gets the wink and the nod and he's a Champion, the next the light is off and they are below average in the East.  How can you plan for this?  Well with Wade you don't have to.  He is the man.  Option 2 isn't even worth considering.

But this creates a problem for Dunleavy.  If Maggs isn't getting the calls, what else does he provide?  Does the rebounding justify leaving him in when we all know he can't resist shooting even if he is ice cold?  Dunleavy has to get him out of EB's way and hold him to 22 minutes.

So now Maggette's confidence is down.

And down the spiral we go.

I'd rather have him out of EB's way in the first place and give those touches back to the Horse with a sprinkle to Cassell, Mobley and Kaman.

by John R on Aug 8, 2007 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wrong comparison
I think you're comparing Maggette to the wrong guys.  I said in the other thread that Maggette is a different player, coming from a different place, than Ginobili and Stackhouse.

I happen to think Ginobili is phenomenal, and truly extraordinary.  Believe me, I'd rather have Ginobili than Maggette in a heartbeat.

The players that I would compare Maggette to, and I'd be curious to hear what you think, are Vince Carter and Paul Pierce.  They're both better than Maggette; I'm not saying that they aren't.  But their flaws are similar to Maggette's flaws.  They like to shoot and show "usage" and it seems like putting up numbers comes first.  And now imagine if Vince Carter was on the Clippers, got hurt in 05-06, was replaced by QRoss, and was the 8th man and playing in garbage time.  I think his reaction would be extremely negative, to say the least, and my guess is that you would hate Vince Carter and want to crush his face.

Paul Pierce isn't so different.  And maybe Doc Rivers, now that he has KG and Ray Allen and plenty of scoring, should start a 5ppg defender ahead of Pierce and bring him off the bench, you know, for bench scoring.  Do you think that would be a good idea?

The idea that any NBA player can average 20ppg is absurd.  What do you mean by that?  I think Dunleavy wanted Ross to average 10ppg, and Kaman to average 15ppg, those were crucial parts of his strategy.  They didn't.  We're not talking about averaging 20ppg in high school or D3, and how many times to we have to hear about how Ross was a scorer in college?  We're talking about averaging 20ppg in the NBA.  No, there aren't a whole lot of guys who can do it.

by zhivclip on Aug 8, 2007 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

I can run with this
I hear what you're saying, but I'd like to hear more about a few things before I respond completely so we aren't talking past each other.

What is this "different place" that Maggette comes from?  How does it make him more like Pierce and Carter, even though I'd put him (and sortof non-commitally you as well since you say he is below Pierce and Carter) in the talent tier with Ginobili and Stackhouse?

Specifically, I would not start anyone over Pierce in Boston.  If Maggette was near as good as Pierce, I wouldn't consider it for the Clippers either.

What I mean by anyone can score 20ppg in the NBA is just that.  Any NBA player could average 20ppg.  It might make that team awful to do so, but every player in the NBA, given enough chances, would score 20ppg.  Saying someone scores 20ppg is basically meaningless.  Shawn Marion only averaged 17.5ppg last season.  Would you rather have the Matrix or Maggette?  Is it because the Matrix gives you that extra 0.6ppg?  Or is because he is a much better player overall?

by John R on Aug 8, 2007 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm speechless
John R - "Any NBA player can score 20 ppg."  Sorry, John R, that's simply untrue.  

by Jax on Aug 8, 2007 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Its completely true
Any player in the NBA made the first and second option of the offense could score 20ppg.  Let's cheaply and briefly use the example of Andre Iguodala.  A 12.3ppg guy on 8.4 shots per game in 05-06, but out from under AI and Webber for only half a season and boom he's a "star" scoring 18.2 points on 13.0 shots.  But he actually shot a lower FG% while scoring more points.

Same player, just getting more chances.

Ppg is a meaningless stat.

by John R on Aug 8, 2007 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

You missed the point
Andre Iguadola is a budding all star.  Meaning that he, like most all stars, has the ability to score points in bunches.  His FG% went down because he is not a PF or C and was carrying the scoring load at the time.

Your position, such that it is, is apparently that the Q Ross's of the world would score 20 ppg if given the chance.  That's simply incorrect. I'm surprised that I'm taking the time to address this issue.  

by Jax on Aug 9, 2007 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Trying to clarify, going through some examples
Appreciate the chance to get in deeper, without talking past each other.  And I'd also like to add some other players to the discussion, so if you can think of any that fit into these categories, it would be welcome.

First of all, the "different place" is that of an NBA starter who averages 20 ppg.  

I understand the distinction that you're making about the meaning of ppg and yes, Mark Madsen could average 20 ppg and David Robinson can score 70 against the Clips to win the scoring title.  There's a difference between theory and NBA reality, where only a select group actually does average 20+ ppg.  And within that group, yes, some are more effective and better than others.  Some are simply better players, some are gunners with no conscience, some have a better all around game and some guys can just shoot.  In some cases, it depends on teammates and the style of the team, and guys have different roles within a team.  EBs 20ppg (25 ppg in 05-06) is not the same as Maggette's 20 ppg, clearly.  You might argue (I think this is partly where you're actually coming from) that EB was able to put up 25 ppg and play at such a high level in 05-06 because Maggette was injured.  

In the comparison of players who are similar to Maggette, I'm going to argue that Pierce is obviously better and more effective because he's been alone and the first option for his team; he hasn't played with anybody like EB or KG and Ray Allen.  He's coming from a place where he's gotten all the shots and big scoring/losing games he could want, and I think he's going to be a very good team player this year.  And he'll average 5-7 ppg less this year than in the past, much closer to Maggette's numbers.  And yes, of course no sane person would bring him off the bench as a 6th man.

But back to the "different place" and Ginobili and Stackhouse.  I see it like this.  Maggette played behind Odom and QRichardson and shared minutes with DMiles.  As everybody left he became a starter, developed a scorer's mentality, and he played that role for two seasons, 03-05.  At the beginning of 05 he and Brand were marketed by the team as equals, both having all-star potential.  Brand broke out, and Maggette played well and then got hurt.  The "place" he's coming from is that he's a starter, he worked hard to get there and it didn't happen overnight, and--very importantly--he never had the chance to fulfill his potential and play in a winning mix.  As he was starting and scoring, the Clips had a horrendous PG situation, with the Dooling-Jaric-Overton follies followed by the Jaric-Livingston-Brunson comedy, which featured the Kittles injury and playing SG alongside Bobby Simmons.  I think Maggette was going into 06-07 with real bitterness that he had missed out on most of the fun of the playoff-bound season, that he had something to prove.  I think he wanted to go back to the beginning of 05-06, except now with an improved Brand, improved Kaman, clear leader in Cassell, Livingston healthy, and he wanted to see what he could add to the mix.  The "different place" is that he had both the experience of being one of the best players on the team, and was still ambitious and hungry for defining his role with a real point guard, a great set of talented teammates, and a great coach.  The only problem is that the coach didn't like him, and didn't see his role the same way that Maggette did.

Think about Darius Miles for a moment.  Lottery pick, potential and upside, traded in a surprise and then injured.  Got better, got a contract, but never became a solid frontline player, never approached the meaning-challenged 20ppg, even though his teams would have loved to have seen him put up those numbers.  Maggette could have been like that, he could have gotten by and showed up and done okay, but instead he worked very hard and kept improving and he felt like he had to earn his spot.  And then he couldn't understand why it was taken away from him.

The situations with Pierce, Carter and others are all different. Pierce and Carter are important examples because they represent one side of Maggette's aspirations.  Their game was polished and effective when they came into the league, and they almost immediately became franchise players.  Maggette wanted to become just as effective as they were, but he knew he was playing with EB, so if he could aspire to that and come close he would be in a better situation.  

Other comparisons, perhaps better, are to Richard Jefferson and Igoudala.  Jefferson, playing with Carter and Kidd, didn't need to be an all-star for his team to succeed, but he needed to get as close to that level as he possibly could.  And it wasn't his job to defer to Carter; he had to try to be as effective as he possibly could, Carter would clearly take care of himself, and Kidd would give both of them outstanding opportunities to shine.  Igoudala had talent but wasn't ready to put up 20 ppg in his first couple of seasons, he was on AI's team and just had to work hard and get better.  When AI left, he became the primary option.  

Stackhouse is a good 6th man.  Stackhouse came into the league as a polished scorer and shooter, and he put up good numbers when he was a primary option on a struggling team.  When he was traded and became an effective 6th man, he had already been injured and lost some effectiveness, and he was playing behind more productive (but aging) players, on a stacked, elite team trying to win a championship.  

How about Josh Howard?  He took some time to develop, had to work his way up to starting.  Believe me, I wish Maggette had developed into Josh Howard.  He didn't.  Howard just has a better, more natural all-around game.  

And Shawn Marion.  I have friends who are big Phoenix fans.  Marion's situation is more comparable to Maggette's than you might think, although it represents the opposite case, as Marion was encouraged to play his game by a supportive coach who wanted his best players on the floor.  A lot of Phoenix fans hated Marion, his game, and his contract before D'Antoni, Nash, and Stoudamire arrived.  Remember that just before the Phoenix renaissance, D'Antoni had to figure out how to get Nash, QRichardson, Joe Johnson, Marion, Stoudamire, and a center all on the floor at the same time.  He didn't want to bring Q off the bench (an obvious choice in retrospect, but they had just spent money on him), Stoudamire was a monster talent, and Marion was effective, getting franchise money, and a head case.  D'Antoni broke the mold and put Stoudamire at center.  He adapted, put his best players on the floor, and his team thrived.

Finally, Ginobili.  In any discussion of the Spurs, it's important to remember that they had David Robinson and became an elite team when they had Robinson and Duncan together.  So a guy like Ginobili was joining a winning culture and needed to try to fit in.  He played in Europe and got experience and polished and defined his game.  That's where he became a winner.  I think you might add that Maggette's development was twisted by his early entry into the NBA and then playing for bad teams; it affected Brand differently, they're different people and play different roles and positions.  And having an effective, young PG like Tony Parker playing in an evolved winning system like San Antonio's makes Ginobili's life a lot easier.

In the end, I wish Maggette was better and a better fit.  But I wish, a little more, that Dunleavy was better and had done things differently and he was more like D'Antoni, Phil Jackson, or Greg Popovich.  Maggette is just a player, with strengths and weaknesses.  His decision-making on the court is a big factor, but it's not as crucial as the larger decision about playing time and the rotation and basic strategy, and I just think Dunleavy got it wrong.
             

by zhivclip on Aug 8, 2007 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agree
And I applaud your patience in attempting to explain the issue as you have.  It seems obvious to me that there are only a handful of players in the league who could reasonably average 20 ppg within the scope of an offense. Yes such players, like all players, have their weaknesses, but it is up to the coach to meld their strengths.  

John R's point that any NBA player can average 20 ppg is similar to a point he made previously that Corey's points can be replaced by three different players.  Engaging in a debate based on such premises is, in my view, pointless (but perhaps not childish).  

 

by Jax on Aug 8, 2007 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes
Feeling you, Jax.  A lot of us are on the same side of this, struggling to figure it out.  JohnR's approach and opinion are valuable I think, just representing the other side.  None of it is ever going to be resolved.

The question now is, can Elton Brand's "meaningless" 20 ppg be replaced by three different players?  I think that it can.  Maggette has to add 8-10 ppg., Kaman 4-6, and the other 4-8 has to come from the starting PF.  I think Davis can do that.  Scoring-wise, the 07-08 Clippers should be the same as the 06-07 Clips with their starting SF scoring 5 ppg.  Cassell needs to play more and should score more without Brand around.  Mobley needs to play a little less and score a little more.

I suppose that somehow the bench scoring has to make up for Maggette's 16 ppg for it to even out, and Knight will score less than Livingston did.  Singleton is gone too.  You start with Ross's 5 ppg.  You add Thornton.  Thomas stays the same, with fewer minutes.  Williams gets more minutes and maybe scores another 82 pts--there's one.  That leaves Korolev to make up the difference, which he can do easily if he plays enough.

And that's not counting MBFGC, who would make the entire season worthwhile no matter what happens, just because it's the Clippers.    

And yet everybody, including me, thinks that they will win 20-25 games if EB plays less than 20 games.  I guess JohnR is right.

by zhivclip on Aug 8, 2007 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Interesting
In my opinion, Corey can't realistically average 28 to 30 ppg.  Kaman may, however, be able to add 4 to 6 ppg, and if he does, that will mean that he's playing within the offense, not getting into foul trouble, and otherwise contributing.  That would be a fantastic development.  Thornton can conceivably average 10 to 12 ppg, but given the fact that he's a rook and his apparent need for the ball in his hands, I wonder whether he's otherwise ready to contribute at an NBA level.  If Cassell and Knight stay healthy, if Kaman comes back, if Mobley can step it up (not sure he can), and if Thornton can grow up fast, the team might not be quite as bad as we think it's going to be.  There are certainly a good number of "ifs" there.  

by Jax on Aug 8, 2007 6:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

So what you're saying is
Other players may be able to pick up EB's production.

And yet when I suggested same about Maggette it was deemed impossible.

Nene Hilarious.

by John R on Aug 9, 2007 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

No John R
I didn't say it was impossible, I said that it wasn't preferable.  We are trying to figure out how to deal with a bad situation here.  It is far better to have more production from one player than several for a number of reasons.  

by Jax on Aug 9, 2007 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

No Jax
I completely disagree.

If you want to raise your game, check out this timely post about one player having alot of production.

Now, Im not calling Maggette Pete (or Iverson), but your notions of where productivity should come from don't play anywhere but Sportscenter and All Star Votes.

by John R on Aug 9, 2007 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

You just don't get it
I don't know why I keep repeating myself.  Teams need three consistent scorers in the 15 - 20 ppg range to run an efficient offense.  All good teams have three such players.  You have to have some players who can consistently break down the defense and create scoring options for all, particularly at crunch time.  You have to have some players who can open up the court consistently from the outside.  Note that I'm not talking about the Kobes and AI's of the world.

The Clippers had only two such players last year.  One, Corey, came off the bench for 2/3rds of the year as the team's 8th man.  Not surprising that the team lost.  What is surprising is that the Coach of the team allowed the ridiculousness to go on for so long.  

Your notions of where productivity should (or shouldn't) come from in the NBA reflect a basic misunderstanding of how to win (or lose) basketball games.  

by Jax on Aug 9, 2007 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

No, its you that doesn't get it
The point you should have learned is that there will ALWAYS be scorers (though I disagree with the premise as well).  When one leaves, another will emerge by sheer force of possessions.

Last year, the Spurs 3rd 15 point scorer *gasp* came off the bench.  The Heat only had 2 players average over 15 points in their championship season.  Same with the Pistons.  Same with the Spurs in the year before the Pistons.  Same with the Lakers in 2 of their 3 championships.

So besides your very idea of how to win basketball games being completely counter to observed reality.  Do you really have anything to contribute?

I've tried to teach you.  I've tried to show you historical facts.  You continue to deny reality.

I, likewise, don't know why you continue to repeat yourself.  Its something we will agree on finally I suppose.

I will grant you this though, Corey would make a GREAT 3rd option.  As a second option, he is...far less than ideal.

The 06-07 Clippers were well within norms here.  In fact, if Corey could have merely seen fit to pass him the ball once more per game, its entirely reasonable to assume Mobley (given his .497 eFG%) would have upped his 13.8 average to 15, completing your hypothetical triumverate.

by John R on Aug 9, 2007 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

Your Posts Only Make You Look Silly
I see that I'm going to have to explain some basic basketball concepts.  

First, there will not always be scorers who can penetrate and create opportunities for all.  Scorers don't always "emerge."  That's why the best players in the game make tens of millions of dollars.  

Second, the Spurs have three scorers, with two in the game at any one time.  The Clippers, on the other hand, only had two.  Your favorite coach put one of the two on the bench and used him as the 8th man for much of the year.  They had little else, which, my friend, is why they lost.

Do you think that any basketball team can win consistently with only one consistent scorer?  Hmm?  

Third, the Heat, in their championship season, had one player averaging 27 ppg, I believe, who is one of the three best players in the game, and another unstoppable force in the middle, with a number of additional consistent players.  Much better roster than the Clippers.  

Fourth, the Pistons have a number of consistent scorers, including Chauncy, Rip, Rasheed, and several others. Do you really think that the Clippers have anywhere near the level of talent of the Pistons?

Fifth, the Lakers had two of the three best players in the game.  Again, very different than the Clippers.  

Sixth, Corey may be less than ideal as a second option, but, since the Clippers had no second option other than Corey, and "gasp" no third option at all, why, oh why, didn't your favorite coach start him?  

Finally, blaming the Clippers failures last season on Corey's lack of passing (a fallacy, if you would check stats) is like blaming Abraham Lincoln for the US' lack of success in Iraq.  

Come on, John R, surely you must have something useful to say.  Dig down.

by Jax on Aug 9, 2007 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Slight correction
When I say Maggette can add 8-10 pts, I'm putting that on top of the 16 he averaged last year, not his standard 20ppg.  So my formula is Maggette 25-26, Kaman 15, Thorton 6-8, etc.

The trick to ppg is that you can't have empty games.  Maggette is very likely to average 20, but in the Clippers newly desperate situation he'll need to have games of 30,35, and 40 to balance out games of 20,15, and 10 to get to 25.  Chances are, as the Clips primary scoring option, he won't have more than a handful of games where he scores 10 pts or less.  Fewer of those, and more games of 25+, obviously gets you to the higher average, and that's the way Brand did it.

Kaman is much more unlikely to get to 15 ppg.  That's why I belabor the simple point.  Kaman has shown a genuine ability to disappear.  It will be harder, of course, without Brand around, but increased opportunities could just as easily result in more of those 1-9 and 2-12 starts, with 3-6 missed layups and 2 foot shots, which we've all seen so many times.  Those empty and even bizarre stretches where the ball won't go in the basket are much more likely from Kaman than from Maggette.

by zhivclip on Aug 9, 2007 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

What
was Corey's average ppg as a starter last year?  

by Jax on Aug 9, 2007 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

20.3
That's the 29 games after the ASB.  He started three other games, but I didn't bother to factor them in.

by Steve Perrin on Aug 9, 2007 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

And
That's while playing a stepped-up role as playmaker that he'd never been given before.  Not bad.  Right John R?

by Jax on Aug 9, 2007 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's what I figured you meant
So here's what I can boil all of that about Maggette to, in the interest of brevity:

he never had the chance to fulfill his potential and play in a winning mix... think you might add that Maggette's development was twisted by his early entry into the NBA and then playing for bad teams;

So, the Clippers rotations and play should be dictated, at least in some tiny part, by Corey's decisions as a young man.  I know this is other's opinions as well, that because Corey has feelings, that they should be coddled.  While it is definitely the coach's job to get the best out of his players, this is not always accomplished by appeasement.

You mentioned Phil Jackson.  He didn't seem too interested in feelings when he called the final play for Kukoc and Pippen refused to come off the bench.  But Kukoc hit that shot and the Bulls won that game.  (And at any rate, hasn't Phillip been exposed as a fraud at this point?  I mean, in any season in which he doesn't have 2 or 3 of the top-15 players in the league (all-time?), even if he has 1 and a top-50, his team is average just like the rest.)

Your Ginobili analogy is apt, but goes to my point.  Like you say, he was already a winner.  It does help to come into a healthy situation, but he made the DECISION to be a part of it.  To argue the other side is to say, Dunleavy should do what Corey wants because Corey's development was probably stunted by these factors, which in some cases were his own choices.

There was every reason to believe for Corey to believe that he was rejoining a healthy situation before this season, wasn't there?  Doesn't really matter if its confidence or pouting or what.  He didn't know how to cope with the situation.

I refuse to blame Dunleavy because Corey;

  1. Sees himself as something he isn't
  2. Refuses to adjust to changing circumstances
  3. Made decisions in his own life that led to 1 and 2
Its those three factors that make Corey most like Pierce and Carter in the WORST ways to be like them, and least like Stackhouse and Ginobili in the BEST ways to be like that group.

Its the fact that Maggette still has a higher usage than EB, that demonstrates this fact the best, and demonstrates best how he is a danger to what the Clippers are trying to do.

I'd put 05-06 Cassell in that group with Maggette, Ginobili and Stackhouse, and how many times did you hear Sam talk about feeding the Horse?  How many times do you hear Maggette talk about it?

He never does.  He's never gotten it and its that "different place" that means he might not ever.

by John R on Aug 9, 2007 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

So
John R, do you have any criticisms of MDSr whatsoever?  If so, please state what they are.  

by Jax on Aug 9, 2007 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Distraction attempts
Everyone is imperfect.  But this post is called The Maggette-festo (which also sounds like a delicious dish) so talking about Dunleavy's non-Maggette faults would be off-topic.

by John R on Aug 9, 2007 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Actually, it's directly on point
Please, John R, let's hear some specifics about MDSr's imperfections, not limited to his handling of COrey.  Surely there must be something . . .

by Jax on Aug 9, 2007 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Distractions
He wears weird suits.  Happy?

You know by me writing this its just to prove how obviously you want to steer this off-topic and turn this into a discussion about me and ad homimem and all that.

Start a Diary called Dunleavy sux lol, or better yet a blog.  There are plenty of avenues for that pointless sillyness.

Maybe its not your fault, but whenever you post, I see that juvenile picture.

by John R on Aug 9, 2007 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Your attempt to attack the messenger
won't work. I would respectfully suggest that you stop calling my posts "juvenile" and summon the courage to analyze this issue head on.    

Based on your posts, it appears that you have no criticisms whatsoever of MDSr, whether they be related to Maggette, his coaching of the team last year, his offensive and defensive schemes, or anything else about him.    

Frankly, it's a bit difficult to take your arguments seriously when you refuse to even consider the possibility that MDSr contributed in any way to these important issues, which all relate to Maggette.

I'm not suggesting that MDSr "sucks" as you put it.  What I am suggesting, based on factual analysis, is that MDSr's coaching style and decisionmaking factors into not only the discussion regarding Maggette but also the larger issue of where we think this team is going.  

Which is the point of this discussion.  

   

by Jax on Aug 9, 2007 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Enough...
John - stop calling Jax's posts juvenile.  He has made some good points, and I don't like name-calling - unless it's directed at interloping asshole fans of other teams, in which case I'll always count on you to be my bodyguard :)

Jax - John's right.  This isn't a firedunleavy blog.  See another recent comment I made on this thread.  He's also right that the Diaries are there for you to make your best case for the issues you have with the coach.  Give it some thought, tell us what you're thinking, and put it all in a diary.  

by Steve Perrin on Aug 9, 2007 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Is it possible...
that the post ASB Corey has actually addressed some of his weaknesses?  Or, if addressed is to strong a word, maybe that he actually acknowledged them and is striving to change?

How many times did Ralph & Mike use the terms 'best ball of his career' and 'transformation' regarding him at the end of the season?  I was always on the bandwagon of course, so to me it did not seem transformational so much as inevitable with the larger role.  Still, he did post a SIGNIFICANTLY higher assist rate during those 29 games than for any other point in his career.  

Do you have usage rate stats for after the ASB?  Was there measurable improvement in Corey's game there?

by Steve Perrin on Aug 9, 2007 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, Corey's assists were way up
in part because the Clips didn't really have a viable pg after Livi went down.  I would imagine much of it had to do with his role in the offense as set by MDSr.  As Zhiv has said, MDSr simply ha no choice but to have Corey involved in running the offense, and Corey responded.  

Corey will likely be called upon to do the same thing this year.  Of course, without EB there will unfortunately be fewer scoring options for Corey to pass to so his assist totals may not be quite as high.  

by Jax on Aug 9, 2007 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

He obviously played better post ASB
No question.  But I don't know that he played his best ball because he played like Corey has always played as I remembered pre-injury.

Usage rate includes assists and turnovers so as his ballhandling responsibilities increased his usage had to go up during that time.

A concern of mine is that we will never see THAT Corey fitting with a healthy Sam on the court together.  Why would I not expect Corey to revert?  We now know what's in him and that it can last half a season if he is unhappy/doubtful/whatever.  Kirilenko shed public tears and he was back strong as ever before the playoffs were over.

Besides that, where will the man defense come from (regardless if Mobley or Ross is the other wing)?  Two defensive liabilities on the perimeter without EB backing them up?

by John R on Aug 9, 2007 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

So
If Sam were healthy (a big if) they obviously wouldn't need Corey's playmaking skills nearly as much.  

by Jax on Aug 9, 2007 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't understand your point
In 2005-2006 when Sam was healthy, Maggette's usage STILL surpassed Cassell and TIED EB.  It doesn't matter the lineup.  Dude uses ALOT of possessions.  Most often more than EB which is always too many.

Unless you are saying that with Cassell on the floor, they should use the 3 spot for a defender, which WAS the plan in 05-06 (and worked like a charm), and SHOULD have been the plan in 06-07, except Corey couldn't get down with it.

Which has sorta been my point all along...

by John R on Aug 9, 2007 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

The reason
Corey and EB shoot so much is that they are the best scorers on the team.  The offense is or should be designed to get the ball to them.  

Now you're blaming MDSr's plan to have Corey come off the bench on Corey?  That's not what happened.  

by Jax on Aug 9, 2007 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Defense
I know I've said this before, but does anyone else recall the 'off the bench' Maggette when he first joined the Clippers?  The one who backed up Q Richardson?  We used to think that Maggette was a terrific defender, didn't we?  I mean, I know I did.

Corey is a space cadet.  But he has all the tools to be a terrific on ball defender.  If I were the coach, I would challenge the guy.  I'd put him on the top scoring wing of the other team and tell him to shut him down.  It has the potential to do two things:  (1) get Corey to focus and work hard.  He's a hyper-competitive guy.  Use that.  (2) it's much easier to space out off the ball than on it.  If you try to hide Corey defensively, you're actually putting him into the position where he is least effective - reading and rotating.  Obviously I'm a big supporter of the guy, but he has atrocious basketball instincts (I'm always astounded when I see guys who have played ball all their lives and yet still don't develop those instincts).  (This is usually called 'basketball IQ' but I dislike that term.)

The thread is venturing into 'Is it possible for the 07-08 Clippers to be successful?'  To that point, defense is gong to be a huge problem.  Livingston is the best (or second best after Ross) perimeter defender; Brand is far and away the best post defender and shot blocker.  Hard to overcome.  Probably impossible to overcome.

by Steve Perrin on Aug 9, 2007 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think
Corey has great lateral quickness.  That's one of the main reasons for his defensive liabilities IMO.  

by Jax on Aug 9, 2007 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think that
They should sign James Posey, who is a better scorer and defender than Q Ross, and who can stretch the defense with three point shooting and package Q, Tim Thomas and/or Mobley for a good pg or pf.

Just a thought.

by Jax on Aug 9, 2007 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Response
We've been at an impasse from the beginning, but I appreciate the refinements to the respective positions.  When you "boil all of that to" you're obviously ignoring and dismissing certain subtleties, but that's not surprising.  The reductive approach is actually helpful in setting the basic terms of the disagreement.

I go back to scoreboard again, and want to say that I would have been very happy with Dunleavy's approach if it had worked.  It clearly didn't.  And I don't think that Maggette is the reason why it didn't work.  I think it didn't work because Kaman was horrible, Cassell was hurt and not as good, Brand wasn't as good as he needed to be to make it work, wasn't as good as he was in 05-06, Ross wasn't as good as Dunleavy hoped he would be, and Livingston failed to "break out," once again.  All of this, apart from Maggette, made the starting lineup and the team as a whole inferior, and not what it should have been.  I would have given the experiment 5 games, maybe 10.  And the obvious solution was to start Kaman, Brand, Maggette, Mobley and Cassell, and to see if the team did any better with that lineup.

The coach's job is only in part to "get the best out of his players," as you say.  His job is to win basketball games.  His job is to do that by putting his best, most effective group of players on the floor.  It wasn't just "getting the best out of" Maggette.  That's a secondary issue.  He wasn't getting the best out of Kaman, Brand, Cassell, and Ross, and the team was falling short.  Dunleavy stuck to his strategy and fell short and lost games.  That's not about Maggette and his style of play and its shortcomings.  Dunleavy should have realized that despite his own preferences and prejudices, Maggette was better suited to starting and starting him would be better for the team, he had skills and abilities that were missing in Ross and that he wasn't getting from Kaman or others.  The conflict is only about Dunleavy's failure in the sense that he failed to see that his professional assessment was incorrect and he allowed it to become a personal, subjective dislike that hurt the team.  It wasn't Dunleavy's responsibility to coddle Maggette or give him extra encouragement.  It's alright that he tried to change Maggette and get him to play a different role.  The problem is that part one of his strategy (improved play from Kaman, Ross, etc) didn't work, and part two (Maggette scoring off the bench) didn't work or solve that problem.  Dunleavy's responsibility was to put a winning team on the floor, one way or another, and he didn't do that.

I think your big fallacy is when you say that you refuse to blame Dunleavy because Maggette didn't adjust to changing circumstances.  Maggette did adjust, more or less; he had no choice.  Maybe he could have done a better job of it.  But Dunleavy is the one who didn't adjust to changing circumstances.  Do you blame him for that?

That's why I bring up Phil Jackson.  Yes, I agree that Phil has been knocked down from his pedestal and he's flawed like everybody else.  And he can be tough and heartless and foolish.  But I have a sense that he is more flexible in the course of the regular season and will try different approaches, and he tries to create situations where his players can succeed.  But it's probably not a worthwhile comparison.  The D'Antoni example I cited is more telling, I think.

Lastly, I think your usage stat and bringing in Cassell's "feeding the horse" don't quite make sense.  Brand and Maggette play different positions and different roles, so you can't make a direct comparison of their usage.  Cassell, even with his own high usage, talks about feeding the horse because he's the point guard and it's his job.  ClipperSteve pointed out how, once he was starting and playing in his proper role, Maggette's assists went way up and he was, in fact, feeding the horse more effectively than ever before.  The fact is, we don't have the data about what Maggette's usage and the team would have been like if he averaged 35+ minutes and  started 70 games.  I wish we did.  What we have instead is a clear sense that QRoss starting the first 40 games didn't work.

by zhivclip on Aug 9, 2007 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Once again, Zhiv is right on
Where we part, I think, is that MDSr's reaction to the team's performance based on his "strategy" was so unbelievably lethargic, and at times so juvenile, that I do not see how this team, our team,  could ever perform at a high level with him as their coach (unless, of course, they completely ignore him).  

As I previously indicated, this coach was pushing for months last year to trade Maggette for MDJr, his own son, straight up.  (This could be why he was trying to drive down his trade value - to ensure his own son's continued employment by the NBA).  Thank G__ Sterling refused to allow such nepotism.  And I don't believe that Livi's injury forced MDSr to start Corey, but rather another direct order from Sterling.  

I am not generally the sort of person who calls for firing coaches.  But realistically, folks, does MDSr still deserve the millions he's making?  

by Jax on Aug 9, 2007 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

MD<sup>sr</sup>'s Contract
He hasn't even worked year 1 (day 1 for that matter) of the extension.  

His indisputable best player and 2 of his 3 untouchables are out for significant portions of year 1.  

Although Fratello was fired while Pau was hurt, generally speaking coaches are not going to be blamed for poor performance under these types of circumstances.  

Also bear in mind that Sterling has never really been one to eat guaranteed money.

There's no way he is fired this year with Brand and Livingston out.  He has until early 2009 (mid way through next year) even in the worst of circumstances.  I know it hurts Jax.

I want to point out that I continue to be a supported of MDsr's despite all that I have said regarding l'affaire Maggette.  The improvement in the team, particularly on defense, in the first three years was remarkable, and I think you have to give credit where it is due.  He had a BAD year last year.  Really bad.  None of the buttons he pushed worked.  And his handling of Maggette was just plain strange, demonstrating a stubborn streak and an inability to communicate that I find very disturbing.  (BTW, sometimes a coach's schtick gets old and players simply tune him out.  It's not unusual for it to happen after 3 or 4 seasons.  Isn't that interesting?)

Let's see what happens while the Clippers are faced with adversity and low expectations.  High expectations and the Clippers is clearly not a good combination.

by Steve Perrin on Aug 9, 2007 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well
I personally don't have the patience for what I see as ineptitude.  I believe that coaches are like everyone else and that their actions should be questioned where appropriate.  I can understand that others think differently about this.  And of course I'm not paying him.  

In addition to last year, I don't like (a) his substitution patterns; (b) his player evaluations; (c) how he is always trying to substitute in players to play off other teams instead of forcing the other teams to play off our moves; and (d) his boring, redundant, telegraphic offense.  

Having said that, I do appreciate (a) his ability to get Sterling to open his wallet; and (b) his continued interested in making the Clippers a winner.  It is truly sad that in my view he has squandered that opportunity that he largely created.    

by Jax on Aug 9, 2007 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Refinements
If you feel like I misrepresented your post, I apologize.  The idea was to shorten a very long post so that we don't get into pages long quote-fests.

I don't think we know the reason it didn't work.  What we do know, is that under the conditions presented, Maggette did not play up to his known potential.  Given his post-ASB play, this can't really be disputed.  If you allow for the possibility, and I know you never will, that Corey was playing below his ceiling consciously or unconsciously on purpose, you might see that he IS the reason it didn't work.  My only evidence for this is once he was starting, it clicked like a switch, but it is stronger to me than evidence of other explanations.  Occam's razor and all that.  The simplest explanation for why he played one way to start the season and other to end it is because he chose to.  To quote Ron Burgandy, "Its science".

I see you allow yourself to make quite a few assumptions about why Dunleavy behaved the way he did.  Obviously, the coaches job is to win games, to the point that it is so obvious I didn't feel it worth stating.  But even more than the coach's, it is the players.

What I am finding hard to figure out, is where you think Maggette (and the injuries) gave Dunleavy room to adjust to?
If five games (4-1 including wins over the Nuggets, Suns and Mavericks) or even 10 (6-4)into the season he gives up on the rotations because a player, for some still unexplained reason, transformed overnight into a far inferior player, he's already lost the whole season anyway.  Maggette gains so much leverage then that you might as well fire Dunleavy and bring in whoever, because these Clippers are done.  The Shaun/EB/Chris plan is over before it ever gets going.
And what if he adjusts to a Sam/Mobley/Corey backcourt and it loses anyway, would you still not fault him?  Its clear you would.

What would you possibly find flexible about Phil Jackson?  Starting Smush Parker for two full seasons?  Refusing to get any minutes to Bynum or Farmar?  Dude sounds an awful lot like, hey, Mike Dunleavy.

Once again, obviously, Cassell and Maggette play different positions.  But EB is the Clippers.  It is everyone's job at all times to feed EB.  All other scorers are merely decoys to free up further space for EB.  This is where discussions of PPG and usage come into play.  EB is the Clippers best option.  Corey sees himself as the Clippers best option.

At any rate, you say "What we have instead is a clear sense that QRoss starting the first 40 games didn't work."

Of course I find the humor in this.  After 41 games, the team was 20-21 and were still starting Ross in the midst of winning 7 of 8.  After 82, the team kept right on pace and ended up 40-42.

It would seem that starting Ross AND NOT starting Ross worked about equally as effectively.

by John R on Aug 9, 2007 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

If I may interject...
You're both making good points, but as is often the case, I think there are some half truths on both sides.

John R, if I may pick on you first, the turn of phrase "unconsciously on purpose" is absolutely Zen.  The Anchorman reference put you back in my good graces though.

But clearly Zhiv is putting too much credence into a supposed interpersonal beef.  The coach wanted to win games, obviously.  I think he just got fixated on an idea.

I do agree that it would have been difficult to know the exactly correct point in time to try putting Maggette into the starting lineup.  But the 6-2 start was fool's gold and we all know it.  (Check out Zhiv's comments in that 11/18 post for a glimpse into his tortured soul.)

There wasn't any magic bullet.  The team never really clicked.  But it did play it's most purposeful ball post-ASB despite a journeyman at the point.  Some would credit Maggette for that good stretch while others would fault him for the poor play earlier.  Poe-tay-toe, Poe-tah-toe.  We're not going to agree on that.

Without going through and redoing the numbers for a different point in time, let me repeat something from a Jan 16 post, almost the mid point of the season.

The Clippers are clearly out of sync.  The coach has tried 13 different starting lineups in 38 games to try to find a combination that works.  Sure, some of that has been dictated by injuries, but it's mostly MDSr struggling to find the right mix.  But his second leading scorer (first on a per minute basis), his third leading rebounder - he warrants three starts in all of this experimentation.  Tim Thomas has started 15 times.  QRoss has started 23 times.  Hell, Aaron Williams has started 7 times.  The team is 4 games under .500.  And Corey Maggette has started 3 times.

Forget the Ross-Maggette debate.  Can't we all agree to despise Tim Thomas!?!?!?  15 starts to Maggette's 3 after 38 games.  And sure, Thomas started some of those at the 4.  But considering the fact that Maggette is a MUCH better rebounder, I would not hesitate to replace Kaman in the starting lineup with Maggette against the Suns.

by Steve Perrin on Aug 9, 2007 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

More Refinements
No worries on the "boiling down" process.  I enjoy the discussion, and it's great to see a lot of activity while I was at lunch.

"Given his post-ASB play, this can't really be disputed.  If you allow for the possibility, and I know you never will, that Corey was playing below his ceiling consciously or unconsciously on purpose, you might see that he IS the reason it didn't work."

I actually agree on the first premise.  I think that Maggette was playing below his ceiling "consciously or unconciously on purpose."  The trick, however, is the leap to seeing "that he IS the reason it didn't work."  ClipperSteve points out below that the 6-2 record was fool's gold, and in the 11/18 post (where I can't seem to get to the comments of my tortured soul, thankfully--and that's my birthday, by the way) he talks about the Clippers horrendous 1st quarter performance in those games.

I don't think Dunleavy's strategy was to get behind in the 1st qtr, and then have Maggette play at his ceiling, and that's how they were supposed to win.  The idea, as I said above, was that guys like Kaman, Ross, and the rest would be improved and solid and the Clips would get a  lead, and then Maggette would be on the floor with Livingston and Thomas and they would build a big margin.  The breakdown wasn't Maggette's lack of effort off the bench.  By the time he came in the tone was too often already set, with the Clips on a downswing and back on their heels.  The breakdown was that the starting lineup was missing something, that players weren't improved or effective enough.

I just believe that the team wasn't there yet.  They weren't good enough to be able to start Ross.  Maybe it was a Kaman problem. EB wasn't as sharp, Cassell tweaked, etc.  But that 5 wasn't as good or as sharp as they were at the end of the 05-06 season.  That was the problem.  The fact that the "6th man" wasn't completely engaged was secondary.

"If five games (4-1 including wins over the Nuggets, Suns and Mavericks) or even 10 (6-4)into the season he gives up on the rotations because a player, for some still unexplained reason, transformed overnight into a far inferior player, he's already lost the whole season anyway.  Maggette gains so much leverage then that you might as well fire Dunleavy and bring in whoever, because these Clippers are done.  The Shaun/EB/Chris plan is over before it ever gets going.  And what if he adjusts to a Sam/Mobley/Corey backcourt and it loses anyway, would you still not fault him?  Its clear you would."

This seems a little petulant.  You make it sound like Maggette is a monster, that giving him any "leverage" is a sure recipe for disaster.  Dunleavy has given virtually unconditional support to Kaman, Cassell, Livingston, Ross, Mobley and others, but if he puts a former starter and leading scorer back into the starting lineup he's giving up and should call it quits?  What does Ross/Maggette have to do with the Shaun/EB/Chris plan?  The Shaun/EB/Chris plan is for these guys to play and gain experience and win games and learn how to execute in crunch time.  Putting Maggette in the lineup doesn't mean you're giving him the team.  It just means that you're putting your best players on the floor and giving the team a better chance to win.  If he "adjusts to a Sam/Mobley/Maggette" backcourt (again, what does Sam/Liv have to do with it?) and loses anyway, that's the way it goes.  If Corey was the problem as a starter, if his usage was too high and he was taking opportunities away from Brand and the team was failing, it would be obvious, and I would have been one of the first to say Corey sucks, he's too selfish, he's forcing it and making other guys worse.  Wow, Dunleavy was right.  It would have been obvious.  His mistakes would have taken the glare away from Kaman, and instead of Ross' empty boxscore we would be looking at Maggs' turnovers.

The only problem with this, of course, is that it didn't happen.  Maggette wasn't a monster when he went into the starting lineup.  Instead of looking at his turnovers, we saw his productivity.

by zhivclip on Aug 9, 2007 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Its possible
The fact that the "6th man" wasn't completely engaged was secondary.

Entirely possible, but I'm not so certain.

I don't think Maggette is a monster.

Let's work backwards a little bit.  I wanted to put a super fine point on it in the last post but was drawn away by the folks that pay me.  I will also work from the assumption, that, even though they were clearly not clicking perfectly, given the training camp issues, you don't pull the plug on a plan after ten games in which you did beat some top opposition and sit above .500.  You have to give it some time.

By the time Jason Hart is the starter, you MUST start Maggette.  The backcourt is thin now so there are no questions.  Maggette shines as bright as ever.
But before that, where do you pull the plug on the goal?
Which stretch of games do you say enough is enough?

The first loss of the slide is against the Lakers.  Corey played 30 minutes before fouling out, and Ross has his 1 in 10 strong offensive game.  Do you panic after this game?  Or do you chalk it up to the BS 46 FTA the Lakers got?
The Clippers lose that game and then 4 more.  They sit at 6-7 and maybe this is a good time to panic.  Unfortunately, in the last game Corey goes 0-9 with 3 TO.  Lineups are already being juggled at this point, and everyone stinks except Mobley, who came off the bench.  If you are the coach, which guy do you move into the starting lineup?
Mobley it is and the Clippers win 3 of 4 to get back to 9-8.  Blow it up now?
Sitting at 10-9, the Clippers go on a 6 game losing streak.  Cassell starts to miss alot of time during this streak that includes the Spurs, Jazz, Rockets and Mavericks.  Kaman misses a few games and Maggette misses a couple as well.  So really we are talking 2 disappointing losses, but you are still dealing with injuries.  This might be a good place to push the button.  I won't argue that, but is it REALLY clear?  You lose to elite teams without key players and you go back to the drawing board?
Dunleavy stands pat and the Clippers win 4 of 5.
The Clippers trade wins and losses through game 38 while starting Sam and Shaun together (a lineup I am long on record as HATING) so Dunleavy is still trying things and the Clippers sit 17-21.
They reel off 7 of 8 to get to 24-22.  If the Clippers finish 19-17 they make the playoffs, no tiebreakers needed.  If you've kept the faith, no reason to give up now.

I mean, there is a trajectory here.

So what I'm saying is, if you give up after 5 games, you acknowledge that its because of a single player not named Elton Brand.  Then for all the discussion of Dunleavy as lame duck, he DEFINITELY is a lame duck.  Not because Corey is a monster, but because he is giving up power.  So what you are really saying is, if he should have been ready to drop it after 5 games, it was a bad idea to begin with.  You can't have a proper expirament without trials.  And after 46 games, despite a crappy training camp AND significant injury, the Clippers remained on track and on plan.

So you're the coach, do you pull the plug on your own plan there?  One doesn't need to be particularly prideful to say that it isn't clear.

But even then, the Clippers are that one rigged game against the Lakers from making the playoffs since it would have given them identical records and the tiebreaker to the Clippers.  Despite all the injuries and drama, they almost made it.

And I'll be a jerk and say that, the game that sealed them NOT making it, 4/15 vs SAC, Corey did start.  He did go 7-17.  He did commit 7 turnovers.  He did try to draw a foul on a last minute 3-pointer instead of trying to make this shot.

Meanwhile, off the bench, Q gets 14 points on 6 shots with no turnovers, adds 4 rebounds and a block in only 18 minutes.

So no matter what happened up to that point, Corey had the ball in his hands with the season on the line.  The result was EB only getting 14 shots to Corey's 17.

I pass on that future.

by John R on Aug 9, 2007 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

That SAC game
was horribly played by everyone except EB, Corey included.  As EB intimated after the game, the team quit.  I cannot explain why.  Corey had an off game.  Prior to that game he had been playing incredibly well.  I don't recall Ross doing much in the game.  18 minutes is about right for him.

A number of factors contributed to the debacle that was last year.  For me, it was Kaman, Cassell's injury, Livingston's destruction, and the failure to start Corey, not necessarily in that order.    

by Jax on Aug 9, 2007 6:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Q's game
18   3   6   1   1   7   8   3   4   0   0   1   0   3  14

14 points on 6 shots (including demonstrating his range to 3 in the last minute with a clutch shot).  0 turnovers.

It was the perfect illustration of the contrast between the players.

Corey gets 21 by dominating the ball through thick and thin.  Q gets 14 while sliding beneath the surface and not taking touches away from EB.

by John R on Aug 14, 2007 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

We get it - you like Q more than Corey
Wonder why MSDr isn't starting him next year

by Jax on Aug 14, 2007 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

More Like It
This is a lot closer:  we're reaching a lot of common ground, and I certainly am developing a better sense of your perspective.  

It's good to have the specifics of the record and the progress through the schedule.  My own impression is more vague, and just a sense that my frustration steadily grew and at a certain point I gave up.  

The goal wasn't to squeak into the playoffs and to become 1st round fodder.  I expected the Clips to compete with the Suns, Mavs, and Spurs, to chalk up easy wins against average teams and show that they were really good on the road.  It seemed as if they should have been clearly better than Utah, Houston, Denver, and the hated, sub-mediocre Lakers.  This idea of excellence dissipated fairly quickly.

Whatever the specific sequence was, I know that when Maggette went into the starting lineup it already seemed to be too late, and then after Liv's injury it was never going to work or matter much.  I think the disappointment was that Kaman had dug an incredibly deep hole for himself, Tim Thomas was more of a hindrance rather than a help, Mobley wasn't picking up any slack,  Cassell was subpar and injured, and Livingston wasn't getting much done either.  To tell you the truth, I would have loved to have seen Ross become more effective on offense and it would have been a big help.  And in the end I agree with you and see what you're saying, that a fully vested, fully engaged Maggette killing himself out there every night would have been a big help.  Yes, he could have brought a different attitude to the plan and bought into it more effectively, and it might have made a big difference.

But in terms of figuring out when to pull the plug, I wouldn't necessarily look at games and wins and losses.  It was more about 1st quarters.  It was obvious to ClipperSteve and to all of us that the 6-4 Clippers were playing like crap.  I guess I wanted to look at starting Ross, or rather bringing Maggette off the bench, as a genuine experiment, not a determined strategy that had to be executed over the entire span of a critical period of time.  And starting Maggette turned out to be the final option, where I would have made it the first.  Five games, poor 1st quarters (but 4 victories), why not start Maggs and bring Mobley off the bench?  As ClipperSteve points out, MD tried everything else first, starting Tim Thomas 15 games, starting Livingston and Cassell together.  It just seemed obvious to me to have a quick trigger on going to the former starter, the strongest scoring option, and that it might improve matchups and chemistry.

By the time of the Sacramento game I was quiet and morose and expected the worse.  The play at that time just seemed symptomatic of the diseased season.  But I can see how "bad Maggette" showing up in that game would make you nuts and leave a lingering bad taste.  I get it.  

by zhivclip on Aug 9, 2007 6:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

The problem
with bringing Cat off the bench in favor of Corey is that without Cat in the lineup the team would have no one to stretch the defense with 3s.  Thus, MDSr had a genuine dilemna.  He wanted to use Q for defense, that was his plan from the beginning, and he had to continue to use a rapidly declining Cat.  Kaman wasn't producing and Cassell was hurt.  Ross was not producing offensively at all.  All of a sudden the team was getting destroyed in first quarters.  

In my view, this was desperation time.  Early in the season.  MDSr had to switch Ross for Corey.  His only option.  Right?  Wrong.  Instead of thinking clearly and moving rapidly, MDSr dug in his heels, and lost the season.  You are correct that they likely wouldn't have gotten out of the first round (unless they would have traded for AI, but that's another story), but still they would have had a fighting chance.

Sac wasn't just about "bad Maggette."  Things happen.  Like John R, I was still hoping, partly because the rag tag bunch was actually playing like a team for the first time all year.  God that game hurt.  

I just don't understand MDSr's coaching decisions last year. It all comes back to that.  

by Jax on Aug 9, 2007 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

um...
...get ready to see the kind of chucking Corey has been waiting to get to do his whole life.  He is going to make Lamond Murray look like he was eager to pass the ball by comparison.  He will take a Kobe-esque number of shots, the problem of course being...

by jcwla on Aug 8, 2007 11:11 AM PDT reply actions  

Like Christmas morning...
What a pleasure, to read the Maggettifesto this morning!  Great work, ClipperSteve.  I'm ready for the book about the Clippers lost season, which I would eagerly read in one sitting.

As soon as I get a chance I'm going to go through it all again and comment, though I'm sure I'll get carried away in a moment.  But it's all there, with lots of details and stats to backup the main points.

Off the top of my head, I think there's one thing that you left out and that you might expand on (for the book, of course).  Dunleavy just doesn't like Maggette and doesn't like his game.  Some people, JohnR among them, just don't like the charging fouls, lazy passes, and defensive lapses, but I think it's more than this, I think they don't like the attitude that scoring seems to come first, and getting the 20+ ppg is the highest priority.  As Dunleavy tried to change the Clipper culture and emphasize defense, he let Maggette get his minutes and points in 03-05 while he was waiting on Livingston and Kaman.  But when Cassell and Mobley arrived Maggette's injury provided an opportunity to steer the Clipship in a direction he strongly preferred.  And during that time he began his lengthy campaign to get rid of Maggette and bring in an Artest (semi-reasonable, except for the fact Artest is a thug) or his son (shows MDsr is a loopy Irishman).  And he started treating Maggette like crap, the same way he treated Wilcox like crap.  And all of this is the source of the theory in my own comment/mini-Maggettifesto that Dunleavy got ahead of himself, that he was expecting continued superplay from Brand, big improvement from Kaman, Livingston, and Ross, and healthy consistency from Cassell and Mobley.  He didn't get any of that, and he didn't adjust, and the season was lost.  Why didn't he adjust or sit down with Maggette in mid-November, as you suggest?  Why didn't he take Mobley's offer to come off the bench--an offer which provides a hint of the turmoil in training camp as Dunleavy exerted his will on Maggette and the team?  Because he doesn't like him.  Maggette is not Dunleavy's kind of people.  But Dunleavy, like Kaman, gets paid millions of dollars to rise above his preferences and opinions and provide his boss and the fans and the team with excellence, leadership, and sound decisions.  And there are good signs that he has changed his thinking, albeit too late.

That gets to another point--yes, the comment is flowing now--, a good one made by Jax.  I agree somewhat with the "pointless" tag on the issue of speculating whether the Clips would have made the playoffs, but "childish" goes a little bit too far.  

You want to take it up a notch?  I'm not sure how it works, but I believe that with the energy of a community (like a basketball team) the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.  This is part of the "illogical" theory about the problems of confidence when you're coming off the bench, and you note how if you've ever played basketball, and if you've watched enough basketball, you can feel it and see it.  Mike Smith often says that momentum is very real, and the fact that you can see it play out in a game is one of the reasons why basketball is so compelling, sometimes highly satisfying and sometimes cruelly disappointing.  I would say that what we get to watch is a cooperative spirit and, yes, karma in action.  

In LA we get to see two different NBA cultures, and each has their own respective karma.  The Laker world spent over a decade trying to puncture the Celtic mystique, and the efforts of Elgin Baylor and Jerry West created a fantastic foundation.  West was able to manipulate that foundation and expertise into getting Kareem, Magic, and Worthy and building one dynasty and then another.  The Kobe-Shaq conflict brought down the Laker dynasty and the Lakers are at a very mortal and conflicted level now, reflecting Kobe's internal demons as much as anything else.

The Clippers were the clowns and hapless fools of the NBA for many years.  They reflected Donald Sterling's funky longterm approach to business, and their sheer staying power and collection of misfits attracted its own set of fans.  With the move to the Staples Center and some change in the zeitgeist and Sterling, Elgin Baylor was able to get Elton Brand, start building a team, and when he brought in Dunleavy it all started to click.  Dunleavy had a clear direction and tapped into Brand's profound excellence and the pentup Clipper karma and he built a competitive team that was poised to join the elite NBA ranks.  You could see the Clippers' energy and enthusiasm in their playoff run, the whole was greater than the sum of the parts, they had a floor leader in Cassell, and EB, the team, and the entire organization reached new heights.

But Dunleavy is flawed, and his conflicts got in his own way.  Dunleavy's flaws showed in his Trailblazer collapse.  They were present in his treatment of Wilcox, and even the extra opportunities he gave to good guy Walter McCarty.  Under the pressure of moving forward, Dunleavy's conflicts and flaws finally reached full expression in his handling of Maggette.  Everything he had worked for, everything he had built and the goodwill established for the team as a whole, was sacrificed for this petty preference.  It ruined training camp, ruined team chemistry, ruined the opening of the season, and kept feeding on itself through December and into the new year and all the way to the All-Star break, by which time the season wasn't really salvageable.  The team was reduced to the sum of its parts, and those parts, isolated and unsupported by common energy and purpose, broke down and failed, one by one.  I think it's a spiritual issue, as in team spirit and team chemistry and human psychological interaction, and I don't think it's childish to speculate on how it works and what the effect was.  I'd go so far as to say that Liv's injury wouldn't have happened if the Clippers hadn't been living in doubt, confusion, and darkness.  The Clipper "curse" is the product of their own decisions and individualism and internal conflicts.  They transcended it all for a time, and real growth actually emerged out of Maggette's injury in 05.  But Dunleavy didn't know what to do with it.  Kaman didn't know how to live with his newfound wealth.  The Clippers came crashing down to their old familiar level, and the "curse" came back with a vengeance.

And in this foolish mystical interpretation of Clipper fortunes I ask myself, why EB?  If this is how we got here, where are we, and again, why?  On other boards I've seen the comment of "I knew something like this was going to happen," and most of us would say we had a similar inkling, an idea that something would go horribly wrong, it's the Clippers, after all.  But Brand is such an extraordinary player and person, that I have read more deeply into these events.  Brand will be fine.  Just as the team improved because of Maggette's injury, the Clippers are going to get a lot better because Brand will be out.  Dunleavy is going to be forced way out of his comfort zone.  His energies were all conservative last year, he was holding on too tightly, alienating Maggette and playing the shortest possible rotation.  So it turns out that this year Maggette will be unleashed, running completely free, and Dunleavy will have to use players like Davis, Korolev, Thornton, maybe even Sofo.  Kaman will have to focus, to lead, to play every night in the spotlight without being able to blink and gyrate in Brand's shadow.

Last year was horrifying, debilitating, unwatchable, climaxed by the cruel twist of Livingston's injury.  This year there are no false hopes, no false strategies and initiatives.  I'm hoping that through EB's accidental and painful sacrifice, the Clips will be reborn.  But that's just me.

     

by zhivclip on Aug 8, 2007 11:38 AM PDT reply actions  

Mentally dogging it
Here is how one would see that, in my never humble enough estimation:

After watching too much Clippers basketball, to the point that I could have probably executed the cuts more crisply then they happened in Summer League, a person knows what the offense and defense are supposed to look like.

There are two examples off the top of my head where Maggette was so far outside the scheme that is was clear something significant was wrong, one offense and one defense.

In that fateful Seattle game, Maggette grabs the defensive rebound and ignores Livingston calling for the ball.  (Yes its a blowout, but Corey isn't the only one suffering as he is joined still by Shaun and TT.)  Maggette brings the ball up and picks up his dribble beyond the arc near TT mid-posting up.  He calls for TT to post up high by pointing to a spot on the floor.  (Obvious a disaster is in progress at this point already.)  TT obliges and pops out, but definitely resumes a post posture rather than preparing a screen since Corey has long since given up the dribble now.  Corey attempts an entry pass to a 4' away Thomas...which sails over TT and everyone's head, finally contacting wood across the end line.  Sonics ball.  Noone but Corey touched it and he managed to execute nothing.  If that's not complete disregard for the offense, I don't know what is.

The defensive example occured in a game that now escapes me, but could have happened any given night.  Q and Maggette are on the floor together defending up top against two wings of little consequence.  Q is on the ball handler who attempts a drive to his left that is quickly cut off.  Discovering the now poor spacing, the ball handler passes to his teammate who hesitates in the crowded space.  Inexplicably, Maggette now demands a switch to move Q onto the new ballhandler.  Q completes the switch in time to cut off the now confused new ballhandlers drive as well.  I have never, ever seen Clippers perimeter defenders switch like that without a screen, and even then rarely with a high screen preferring to show and recover.

But this is just me preferring to ascribe the behavior to a temporary indifference rather than complete inability.

by John R on Aug 8, 2007 11:41 AM PDT reply actions  

Many good points have been made
Steve, you and I agree that a team is best served by starting it's five best players.  Maggette is definately one of the five best on this team.  Ginobli comes in at the 9 minute mark of qtr. 1 - he is basically a starter.  

I doubt that Corey has ever been destined for the All-Star game.  Granted, opposing coaches always comment about how difficult he is to stop, but there are too many forwards in the West for him to get the nod over.  He is a scoring machine, but his game is far from complete.  I have twice seen Corey torch the Lakers over the last three years.  Twice he has shared the floor with Kobe and for a night been the best player on the floor.  When he is on his game, he is quite effective.

Maggette is not the only player mishandled by MDSr.  Shaun Livingston's situation is a prime example.  Coach had turned him into a head case by the time the injury happened.  Stating him for a few games, pulling him for Cassell, putting him back in the lineup.  Even Cassell was becoming confused by the situation.  I suspect a coach who just "turned Shaun loose" would have had much better results with Livingston than one who is so puckered and paranoid as MDSr. the micromanager.

Al Thornton and Korolev play into Maggette's future as well.  If either of them produce this year, Corey could be out.  If they all produce, we will see a team loaded at the three.  Not such a bad thing.

by mp on Aug 8, 2007 6:51 PM PDT reply actions  

good points...
I tend to agree that Maggette was never going to make an Western Conference All Star game simply because of the incredibly deep talent pool in the west.  But his trajectory was moving that way, and you have to look no further than Rashard Lewis 3 seasons ago to see an example of a limited player getting the all star nod - if the Clippers had put together a huge first half of the season in 05-06 and Corey had stayed healthy and productive, it was not beyond the realm of possibility.  But that's all moot now.

You are entirely correct that Thornton and Korolev figure heavily in Corey future as a Clipper.

by Steve Perrin on Aug 8, 2007 8:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

good one on Rashard Lewis
and yes, Corey was a key to that hot 05-06 start.  Being part of the surprise Clippers that year would have earned him more attention.  

I like to dwell on what could have been that year had Corey stayed healthy.  It is fun and unproductive day dreaming.  I think 50 wins was realistic, the way they were playing.  That injury shell-shocked them.  

The original starting 5 of that year was playing great ball together.  Sam, Cat, Corey, EB and Kaman.  

by mp on Aug 9, 2007 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

why cry about what could have been last year
when this year is going to provide plenty of new opportunities. yes last year was like a made for tv movie. md sr. is the new step dad who lays down the law. "it's my house you'll live by my rules." corey is the rebelous youth who has to learn life's lessons the hard way. "you're not my real dad." they bond over basketball and by the end md sr. learns to be flexible and corey learns to make the easy pass when he's coming down the lane on a 3 on 1 fast break. the sad part is that i was looking forward to the new corey playing alongside eb, cat, kaveman and white dynomite (jared). instead i'm like the cubs fan who shows up to opening day with the "wait till next year" banner.

by cabezadeknuckle on Aug 10, 2007 4:28 PM PDT reply actions  

White Dyn-o-mite...
Me likey.

I think I saw that after school special you described.

by Steve Perrin on Aug 10, 2007 9:38 PM PDT reply actions  

thanks
hey clipper steve, thanks for all your comments on this site. it's great to have a place where one can read about the clippers and escape the kobe soap opera on the radio and in the l.a. times. derrida could learn something from your close reading of clipper games (if he weren't dead). i hope dunleavy understands that this season is an opportunity to get some people minutes and see what they can do. my fear is that your play corey logo is going to be replaced by a play jared logo. i youtubed jared and i think he has a shot to do some good things with the clippers. he's already a better player than md jr. let's hope he gets some minutes and chances to make mistakes without getting the quick hook from the balding ringmaster.  

by cabezadeknuckle on Aug 13, 2007 12:25 PM PDT reply actions  

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