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My Dinner with Andrei

I was working on a post about the differences between international and NBA basketball.  The fact that two of the greatest players in the world (Andrei Kirilenko and Sarunas Jasikevicius), after leading their teams to great finishes in EuroBasket 07, are both looking to bolt the NBA for the EuroLeague, has got to be more than just a coincidence.  These guys are big time players, and yet they've both been marginalized in the NBA.  At least AK47 got paid - Saras has never even gotten a chance.  There's got to be some major disconnect.  Unfortunately, I couldn't really come up with any brilliant insights, so other than some interesting observations, there just wasn't really a post there.  Maybe it will come to me yet.

But at least I can do the straightforward post about Kirilenko's situation.  First of all, it's pretty clear that Jerry Sloan is no picnic to play for.  Even if you're straight.  (And Andrei is pretty clearly straight if you'll recall the deal his wife gave him last season.)  

There's been a fair amount of patter about the way the Utah offense changed with the emergence of Williams and Boozer, which is supposedly why AK47 faded into the background, and about how he had his greatest success at power forward and shouldn't be playing small forward.  I don't really see any of that.  Let's face it, AK47 is a game changer on DEFENSE first.  And it's his defense on wings (I've never seen anyone defend Kobe Bryant better) and his shot-blocking that make him great.  If he's locked up in post defense with a big power forward, that's not where he's going to shine.  So I'm far from satisfied that there's been any sort of explanation offered for where he went during the regular season last year.  

If you'll recall, against the Warriors in the playoffs, that game-changer AK47 showed up again, taking Stephen Jackson right out of the series.  That's the guy that made an all star team and signed a maximum contract.  But he disappeared again against San Antonio.  I think that's got to be a concern for anyone looking to acquire him.  Maybe he just needs to get away from Sloan.  But maybe there's something else going on.

Would Kirilenko really walk away from the money and play in Europe if the Jazz let him?  He strikes me as the kind of guy who just might.  And let's be clear - if he's willing to take a buyout of zero (i.e. he and the Jazz mutually agree to tear up his contract and not pay him any of it), I can't see why the Jazz WOULDN'T do that.  They'd still have three great players, a couple of solid pieces like Paul Millsap and Matt Harpring, and a TON of cap space.  They certainly can't think they were getting their money's worth from AK47 last season, so it's only logical that they'd let him walk if he was willing to leave it on the table.  

And then there is the trade talk.  Citizen cabezadeknuckle asked today, "hey clippersteve. any thoughts on maggette for kirilenko?"  I think you have to take a serious look any time a big time player is on the market.  And as it happens, the Clippers have a couple of pieces that the Jazz might actually be interested in.  For one thing, as cabeza pointed out, the Jazz signed Maggette to an offer sheet back in 2004 which the Clippers then matched.  So they certainly liked Maggette at one point.  For another, the Jazz have all stars or near all stars at the 1, 3, 4 and 5, but a total void at the 2 (the starter for much of last season was Derek Fisher, a 1, now he's gone, and there is no replacement).  And of course if they send AK47 away, they'll have a hole at the 3 also.  Basically, they have no wings, and the Clippers are lousy with them.  

Maggette for Kirilenko straight up doesn't work.  Even if you did it with a trade exception, the Clippers would go over the luxury tax threshold if they took on Kirilenko's extra salary, so it's definitely not happening.  But as it happens, the Clippers could take any two of the salaries of Mobley, Maggette and Thomas and make an AK47 trade work.  Interesting, right?

Kelly Dwyer, subbing for Henry at TrueHoop, actually proposed a three way trade that had the Jazz getting Thomas and Maggette, the Clippers getting Mike Bibby, and the Kings getting Kirilenko.  It's interesting that he thinks the Jazz would be interested in this package, but the real question is why would the Clippers participate in that little menage-a-trois?  Wouldn't the Clippers rather have Kirilenko than Bibby?  Especially if they lose Thomas AND Maggette?  Of course the fact that this trade proposal started from a comment on a Sactown Royalty post explains the Kings' presence in the room, but the Clippers and Jazz could make this deal happen all by themselves.

I would actually think that the Jazz would like to get their hands on Mobley.  They are pretty desperate for a true shooting guard, and Mobley fits the bill.  He also strikes me as a 'Sloan' kind of guy - he'll play defense, set screens, work hard in practice.  And he could help spread the floor for Boozer.  

I don't think the Jazz would do the deal for Thomas and Mobley.   They both have contracts that run three more seasons, so they would only be getting one season of salary relief versus Kirilenko's deal.  It's also debatable as to whether the Clippers should do that deal - one of the worst three point shooting teams in the league, they can't really afford to trade their two best three point shooters, can they?  So whereas I am not crazy about Mobley or Thomas and would sooner part with them than Maggette, I don't think you can lose them both without getting a shooter back.

So if there's a deal here, it's for Maggette (whom the Jazz ostensibly like) and Mobley (who fits a need for them).  Their combined salary this coming season of $16.2 is greater than Kirilenko's $13.7, but within the allowable variance.  Assuming Maggette would opt out of the final season on his contract, the Jazz would save about $6M next season, a little more the season after that, and about $27M over the course of the deal.  So, yeah, I'm thinking they might have an interest.  

What about the Clippers?  It's a tough call.  If you're down with the argument that Kirilenko has had trouble being effective because Boozer is parked on the block and AK47 can't slash, then the Clippers aren't any better for him.  But like I said, I don't buy that.  The bigger problem is that adding Kirilenko, and his maximum contract lasting four more seasons, to Elton Brand, who has a maximum contract for the foreseeable future assuming the Clippers extend him, would give you two GREAT players, both paid the maximum, neither of whom can really be counted on for a basket down the stretch.  It's a no-brainer to justify a maximum contract for EB.  And Kirilenko at one point looked like he was worth every penny as well.  But it is goes completely against NBA convention, on the final possession of a close game, to give the ball to someone making $4M per when there are two guys making $15M on the floor.

In the short term, this deal would leave the Clippers with Quinton Ross starting at the two, backed up by Guillermo Diaz, so that's another problem.  But, you gotta figure the defense-firster in MDsr would be pretty intrigued.  Two great wing defenders in Ross and AK47, and when Brand returns a trio of shot blockers in Brand, Kaman and AK47 the likes of which the league has never seen.  Flash forward to when both Brand and Livingston are back and healthy (not guaranteed, I know), and that is one nasty starting five defensively - Livingston, Ross, AK47, Brand and Kaman.  Four of those guys are capable of some day making first team all defense.  And none of them can shoot from over 15 feet.  It would be a fascinating experiment - can defense and teamwork win enough games, or does every team need a superstar scorer?  (The deal would also alleviate the Clippers current roster crunch, making room for Diaz and Jared Jordan - a nice side benefit.)

In conclusion, I'd certainly be placing some calls to the 8-0-1 to gauge interest.  With Maggette likely to opt out of his deal after this season and Mobley's contract a bit of a problem itself, the Clippers wouldn't be giving up too much.  They would clearly be hamstrung financially as long as Kirilenko, Brand and Kaman were on the team - that's about $40M per and growing for those three guys for years to come.  And of course the biggest question is, can those three guys be the core of a championship team?  Because for that kind of money, they had better be.  It would be a risky move.  But the resulting team could be a defensive juggernaut.

If you could get AK47 for Maggette and Mobley, would you do it?  I think you'd have to.

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Excellent post
Thanks for letting us have all the various angles to this story...I would do it; however, I don't know if MD is any improvement to JS...MD is a wanna be JS and would probably do a finish up the any sanity left in AK's head...I would to see that Kaman, EB, AK line up!

On another note, Sactown had an interesting post about All Time Kings team...ever thought about doing one for the Clips (post Buffalo of course)?

by Lawler's Law on Sep 24, 2007 11:47 PM PDT   0 recs

JS and MD
good point.  I meant to make that one myself.  Sloan would seem to me more... let's say abrasive... but from I think you're correct that MDsr aspires to being Sloan-lite, and it's certainly possible that AK47 would like him no better.

At some point of course, Kirilenko has to look in the mirror.  If he can't be satisfied playing for this coach or that coach, on this team or that team, in a house or with a mouse, then maybe he is the problem.

by ClipperSteve on Sep 25, 2007 8:41 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

couldn't do it
First of all, that would leave Ak-47 in the same situation he was in with the Jazz. He would fall to the 3rd or fourth option and play small foward...again. Secondly, the Jazz didn't show any interest last year when Maggette was the subject of trade rumors. If They really were interested in Maggette, They should have attempted to get him...but didn't. I think they felt they had a complete package during that time. And finally, Matt Harping fills the SG spot with talent to spare. If I'm not mistaken, Harping played most of his time at SG. He is a white man's version of Maggette. He can play both the SF & SG. With the addition of Jason Hart, I see no way the Jazz contemplates a trade for Maggette. I also don't see AK salivating over the chance to play for the Clips. His best option is to stay at Utah since we could only offer the same situation here in L.A. but with a slight less chance( sorry,shouldn't have used slight) at making the play-offs. AK, might be a second option early in the season but what happens when EB & Livingston return???? What happens once Thorton starts producing?
I see soo many things wrong with a trade like that. My hopes lie in keeping Maggette after this season. Since he and Dunleavy patched things up, my hope is that CM will prove he belongs in Clip's attire long term come this season. Plus, after this season, our problem won't be our bigs (comment: if EB signs long term)it will be our Guards. We could lose Ross, Maggette,and Cassell. Mobley (isn't getting any younger)and who knows about Livingston. I would much rather sit and wait to see how things come together.
AK is a great defensive player but I don't see a need for him. Remember, Eb is great coming off the weak end to block shots. Ak is the same. We have similar styles aside from the fact that AK can guard any SG as you pointed out but to me that isn't enough to trade a 3pt shooter plus our #1 go to guy while EB and Livingston are out.
If your sword's too short, add to its length by taking one step forward. - unknown author

by clipper joe on Sep 25, 2007 8:03 AM PDT   0 recs

Good points all around
I think Harpring played some two last year, but they like him better at the three.  They definitely need a two pretty badly.  The Jazz might consider this trade not because it's perfect for them, but because it's better than the alternative - i.e. losing him for nothing more than salary relief.

As for the Clippers, I agree with the potential problems with it - it's problematic.  But you definitely have to take chances to make big steps forward.  But the worst case, and it could definitely happen, is that the lineup doesn't mesh at all, and the Clippers salary structure is effed-up for the next 4 years.  Not pretty.

by ClipperSteve on Sep 25, 2007 8:46 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

A couple of points
First, while I love AK's game I don't think the Clips should do this deal unless AK47 restructures his contract downward.  He's not worth the max IMO.  And he may be willing to restructure.    

Second, I think the real problem with AK47 in Utah (notwithstanding what he's said) is that Boozer has supplanted his role in the offense, not that Coach Sloan is tough on him.  The team now runs its offense through Booz, which is better for the Jazz than running it through AK.  Boozer is better on offense than AK is.  The Clippers, on the other hand, would love to heavily involve Ak in the offense, at least until EB comes back.  And he'd bring the weakside help that otherwise is nonexistent this year.  And unlike Utah, with Okur, the Clippers could conceivably put EB at center and keep Ak at PF.  They'd be small, but they would still be adequate in the post IMO and have a very flexible fast-paced offense.

Third, Utah no longer needs AK.  They'd love to trade him.  That is a factor that should interest the Clippers and many other NBA teams.  

by Jax on Sep 25, 2007 10:07 AM PDT   0 recs

thanks clippersteve
i can always count on you for intelligent perspectives. yes i hadn't thought about the clippers being the baltimore ravens of basketball. it could be exciting (turnovers leading to fastbreaks) or tortuous eb, kaman and ak all calling for the ball in the post. probably it would be both.
at least clipper fans can hypothesize within the realm of possiblity unlike those laker fans who think that brian cook's flat footed jumpers or lamar's twice repaired shoulder are coveted by gms around the world. sorry laker fans if there is life on other planets their first inquiry upon making contact will not be about kwame's expiring contract.  

by cabezadeknuckle on Sep 25, 2007 1:02 PM PDT   0 recs

They can't lose AK47
"I think Harpring played some two last year, but they like him better at the three.  They definitely need a two pretty badly.  The Jazz might consider this trade not because it's perfect for them, but because it's better than the alternative - i.e. losing him for nothing more than salary relief."

They can't lose AK47 for nothing. He just can't pick up and go to Europe. He is bound to a contract and I don't think he will sit out the season. I'm sure the   Jazz won't let him out of the contract to free up money. If he tries to sit out then look for the trade but not until then. I'm sure there are plenty of teams that will trade for him but at this point I sure the Jazz won't get equal value. I for one see it as a bad move if we ever attempted a trade for him.

"As for the Clippers, I agree with the potential problems with it - it's problematic.  But you definitely have to take chances to make big steps forward.  But the worst case, and it could definitely happen, is that the lineup doesn't mesh at all, and the Clippers salary structure is effed-up for the next 4 years.  Not pretty."

I agree on taking chances but his big contract will eat up our chances of getting maybe 2 quality players or someone better during the off-season. We still don't know who will stay and who will go yet. Plus with the addition of Patterson who needs another SF. What if Patterson achieves more than expected and we sign him to another contract. What if Thorton becomes this years surprise player? What if Maggette wants to stay and is offered another contract? My point is that we have added 3 new Forwards to this years line up...why do we need more??? Why lock ourselves to a big contract and limit on who we can get when we need it. I'm telling you, we will need guards come next season...not forwards. Plus, I wouldn't want to bring in someone who is easily frustrated and saddened due to lack of involvement... for that price.

If your sword's too short, add to its length by taking one step forward. - unknown author

by clipper joe on Sep 25, 2007 1:12 PM PDT   0 recs

Hmm
I don't think that Kirilenko is easily frustrated.  The team doesn't need him and doesn't want to keep paying the money they're paying.  They know it and he knows it.  And he doesn't want to just sit there and take their money (which he was lucky to get in the first place).  The guy wants to play, and is advising the Jazz that he would be willing to renegotiate his deal if he can be moved.  

I think that the Jazz will trade him to a team needing defensive / pf/sf help for an SG who costs far less than AK's current contract.  If I were the Clips in their current situation I'd have to try to see if we could work something out, particularly if I could keep Corey.  Then I'd move Patterson and someone else for another three point shooting SG to replace Mobley.

But that's just me.  

by Jax on Sep 25, 2007 1:25 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Is crying frustration enough for you?
C'mon Jax, the guy lost it. How many players have you seen cry out of frustration during an interview???
"the team doesn't want to keep paying the money"?
Then way have they said they would not let him go????
If they REALLY want to let him go, why is AK making all the moves by willing to renegotiate his contract? By the way, I haven't heard that anywhere.
Also, why would we want to trade Patterson when no one took him when they had the chance. I'm sure he was on the market for a while. He is a good player but WILL NOT function well with the Clips.
If your sword's too short, add to its length by taking one step forward. - unknown author

by clipper joe on Sep 25, 2007 6:46 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

He's Russian, not American
Different country, mindset and culture.  Difficult for Americans to judge.  I've lived in and around Russia and with Russians, so I'm not surprised.  

They aren't letting him go because they want to get something significant for him, and they ultimately will.  If they can't trade him based on his current salary, they will probably work out a deal with him to lower the salary so he can be traded.  They're not going to telegraph all of this to the public.  

Patterson is valuable.  He wasn't just dangling out there.  He will hustle and put the ball in the hole, which will help the Clips.  

by Jax on Sep 25, 2007 9:01 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

he's Russian, not American
"Patterson is valuable.  He wasn't just dangling out there.  He will hustle and put the ball in the hole, which will help the Clips."

I completely agree 120%. My last sentence on my previous post was meant for AK47 and not Patterson...Sorry about that.
  I will beg to differ on being easily frustrated though. Although you make the point that Ak is from another country,culture and mindset, I have to say in spite of those things, It isn't hard to judge his actions. I judged the player's actions and not his nationality. I have never been to Russia or any part of Europe but does that make me any less qualified to call it like it is??? I am not into stereotyping people or claim to know every culture but I do know my basketball. I'm not sure how this whole nationality thing got into this. One thing I do know for sure is that Basketball has no borders and once the ball hits the air nothing else matters ( culture, country etc.) except your team and the opposing team and of course, the big "W".

You write;
"They aren't letting him go because they want to get something significant for him, and they ultimately will.  If they can't trade him based on his current salary, they will probably work out a deal with him to lower the salary so he can be traded.  They're not going to telegraph all of this to the public."

 Jax, you seem to knock everything I have said with facts yet your whole reply is based on nothing more than assumptions. In fact, I have read nothing remotely close to what you are asserting. The outcome might well end up in a trade but they might just end up keeping him too.
 One question; if the Jazz don't want to telegraph
the restructuring of his contract to the public, how do you know???? Insider knowledge?
 All I'm saying is my gut feeling is that a trade for this guy would not suit the Clips. We would have to give up too much for this guy. At this point Maggette is our go to guy till EB gets back. Ak doe's not have that mentality or the experience with the clips to fill those shoes in such a short period of time before the season starts. Hell, this notion is so far-fetched that it will never happen so why worry.

If your sword's too short, add to its length by taking one step forward. - unknown author

by clipper joe on Sep 26, 2007 6:28 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Wasn't trying to knock you
Just saying that many Russian males tend to show their emotions more than Americans do.  What's acceptable there may be seen as weakness here.  

I don't have any insider knowledge, and I apologize if my post implied that I do.  I'm just telling you what my gut feeling is based on the facts as I know them.  I don't think that the Jazz want AK47 and don't want to pay his exorbitant salary.  I think they overpaid him, making it very difficult to trade him.  He seems to want to renegotiate his deal to get moved.  Given those circumstances, they should be able to get something done.

I personally don't think that we should trade Maggette for him.  You're right, Corey is our go to guy.  Having said that, the Clippers cannot defend the post, and he would greatly help in that area as well as make the team more athletic.  I could see the team trying to get him.  Unlikely, I know, but they certainly won't get him if they don't try.  

by Jax on Sep 26, 2007 9:45 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

No worries!
I agree with you that we need help on the defensive end but at what cost. Do we sacrifice our best player (Comment; only because is EB is out) for some defense??? It's a tough call. My hope lies in Patterson playing better than expected but I see what your saying. It basically boils down to either or. I would not make the trade only because our defense shows more promise than our offense. By promise, I mean Patterson. If Maggette is traded, who else can replace his numbers? I mean someone who is proven and reliable on the roster? I see no one. Kaman hasn't shown he is a 20/10 guy. Mobley is 50/50 and don't say Cassell cause we can't count on him considering his age and history of injuries. Ak47 doesn't have a good outside shot and I don't see him as a go to guy. I see this as a no brainer.
If your sword's too short, add to its length by taking one step forward. - unknown author

by clipper joe on Sep 26, 2007 10:46 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

If they trade Corey for AK
They should also get rid of Kaman if they can, along with Ross perhaps, for some offense.  I'd play EB at center, AK at pf, and surround them with wings who can shoot the three and play uptempo.  

by Jax on Sep 26, 2007 11:07 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Just Say No
Lots of sharp thinking and great analysis, and there's a certain clarity to the idea of Maggette/Mobley for AK--do you do it?

I say no for a few reasons.

It is interesting to read about AK's interest in playing the 4 and the Boozer issue.  Remembering that Sloan built his team around Karl Malone, you can see that it would be easier for him to go into the future with Boozer.  The analogy is a little far-fetched, but for some reason it reminds me of the transition from the Showtime/Kareem Lakers to the Shaq Lakers and Vlade Divac.  Vlade was a very different type of center from Kareem, he obviously had a value (high enough for West to use him to draft Kobe), but in some ways he was a transitional slight misfit in the move from Kareem to Shaq.  Vlade's value was seen later on Sacramento, where he was great (but not nearly as good as a dominant Shaq).

Thinking of AK as a PF, the player he reminds me of is Shawn Marion.  They can both play the 3 perfectly well, but they seem to thrive on the hustle mismatch of moving to the 4, which allows the team to put wing scorers at the 2 and 3.  Perhaps this is close to the Rodman PF model; I'm not sure.

So AK wants to/should go to a team that is trying to be like Phoenix.  I'm remembering now that Marion apparently killed a trade for him to go to Utah--and the reason is evident in the point about Boozer above.

At any rate, the Clippers with Brand (and Kaman)are not the right team.  AK would be primarily be playing the three, and for all of the defense he provides, it would be the same bad fit he has at Utah now.

It occurs to me that one way it might work is if Kaman turns into a 20+ppg scorer in Brand's absence but his defense really suffers.  Yeah, I know. Of course, Kaman will average 20+ as soon as they start making Clipper stockings for Christmas.

And I think AK is definitely overpaid.  Of course I thought Marion was overpaid before Stoudamire, Nash, and D'Antoni got to Phoenix, and Phoenix won't extend Marion--although I'm not exactly sure why they would have wanted to take on AK's contract.

The Maggette-Mobley duo is solid and they do a good job for the current cost.  There's a lot to be said for having two players for the price of one, especially when they almost triple his scoring output.  We all know I would have liked to have seen more of Maggette-Mobley for the last two years.  Things should be different and very interesting this year, and either Maggette is great and gets resigned, or he's gone and frees up capspace.  If you're going to trade M-M, and you have Thornton and Patterson to fill the SF gap, it seems like in return you should get a big time scorer who is an all around player.

Elsewhere I considered the idea of the Lakers trading Odom for AK.  I think Odom is a little better at playing the 3 and might be a good fit, but you have to assume that he's not a Jerry Sloane type of player.  I think the Lakers should push for it, but Utah would probably balk.  The proposal that would interest me would be to offer Williams and AK and whatever else it would take for Kobe.  No way that Kobe would go to Utah, but if he wants to leave the Lakers they would be getting some pretty good rebuilding pieces for him.

Any way you look at it, with the emergence of Williams/Boozer/Okur, Utah is in great shape if they can afford to let AK hit the road.  If they're smart they should be able to get even better by getting something good for him.

       

by zhivclip on Sep 25, 2007 3:35 PM PDT   0 recs

be real
uh you can't trade for ak and keep corey. you have to give up a good player to get a good player. you can't throw a guy in a trade who anyone could have signed for the veteran minumum a couple months ago. no one is going to trade a consistent 3 point shooter for him now. you can't give up a bunch of rookies and draft picks and expiring contracts for a really good player unless you are an ex-teammate of kevin mchale. be real.

by cabezadeknuckle on Sep 25, 2007 3:56 PM PDT   0 recs

real response
I'm not sure that anyone is saying that you can trade for AK and keep Corey.  I'm certainly not.

For me, I'm just saying that I wouldn't trade Maggette and Mobley for AK.  

And I think the fact that a team like Utah has nobody to play the 2-3, so that Maggette and Mobley would both be starters, means that you might be able to trade them as a package somewhere else (besides Minnesota).  But maybe not.  And if you could get one very solid 12-13m starter in the deal, preferably a really good SG, that would be okay.

by zhivclip on Sep 25, 2007 4:11 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

oops
I see now that this was a response to Jax.

I guess it's out there that Utah might let AK walk, more or less, and the fact is that there has been a rise in buyouts putting players in some odd situations.

I agree with Cabeza--no AK and Corey on the same team, and no deals involving Patterson.  Or TThomas, for that matter.  Nobody wants them.  And Mobley would be nearly impossible to move.

Unlike Boston, the Clips have virtually no decent chips on the trading block, especially now with Livingston's injury and Kaman's contract.

by zhivclip on Sep 25, 2007 4:16 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The problem
is that the Clippers have put themselves in such a hole that they really can't trade Corey, even for AK47. Pretty sad stuff.  

by Jax on Sep 25, 2007 9:02 PM PDT   0 recs

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