Parsing Words
Finally, the much-anticipated ClipperSteve response to the stories in today's LA Times.
Unfortunately, I'm coming to the party a little late. Before I'd even had a chance to read TJ Simers' column, much less post about it, the column had already generated a Diary from Citizen Zhiv and a slew of comments on an innocuous post about Al Thornton, which happened to be at the top of the main page at the time.
As it happens, when I read Jonathan Abrams' recap of the game yesterday I noticed a theme that seems to be recurring in the Simers piece as well as on ClipsNation to a lesser extent. And I find it strange. People (players, coaches, owners, reporters and citizens) are getting frustrated, and making comments borne of that frustration. Which makes me wonder... why now?
Hell, the team is 2-2 in their last 4. They were 10-23 (.303) at that point, and they're 12-25 now (.324). They're en friggin' fuego. Break up the Clippers!
People are just now figuring out that the team isn't going to make the playoffs? Really? Were they MORE likely to make the playoffs a week ago than they are now? Hardly.
So again I ask, why now?
Frankly, I think there is a circumstantial factor at play here. The Clippers played a Monday matinee yesterday on the MLK holiday. It is the only non-weekend matinee of the season. The vast majority of games are played at night. Even a 7:00 PM ET tip off (that's only 4 PM here) is ending at 6:30 PT. Abrams has to write his recap, file it, and get some sleep (or get to the next city on the road trip) since he is after all in that Eastern time zone when he's writing. He barely gets second half details into the recap, forget about in depth interviews. On the other hand, a Saturday or Sunday matinee is a strange affair. Even reporters probably like to have their weekends to themselves a little. No one wants to hang around Staples working on a story at 3:00 on Sunday.
But a Monday? That's different. Maybe I'm way off base here, but I get the impression that Abrams and Simers asked these questions and wrote this stuff because they had nothing better to do. Maybe not - but I find the timing interesting.
That's not to say that it's all invalid. It just goes the question of why now.
Let's look at a few direct quotes and read between the lines a little.
Easily the most disconcerting thing I read after this game. 'The usual Clipper thing?' This from your 25 year old center who is signed for 4 more years at 7 figures per? Let's be clear - the Buffalo Braves moved to San Diego before Chris Kaman was born. The team moved to LA when he was three. By contrast, he was an actual part of the best Clippers team of all time. If your 25 year old center who was in the Western Conference semis 21 months ago is referring readily to a culture of losing, this is a BIG problem.
This one is interesting for a couple of reasons. For one thing, Sterling didn't say 'Elgin Baylor and Mike Dunleavy' - that's why the names are in brackets. He said 'they' or 'team management' or some such. Now, I'm sure Simers verified at some level that DTS meant these two, and not, say, Andy Roeser. But the mention of Elgin Baylor is pretty laughable. Elgin Baylor has been the Clippers GM since 1986. Every other team in the league has changed GM's a minimum of 3000 times while the Clippers have lost more games than they played during Baylor's tenure (I didn't check those facts, but they certainly feel true). If you haven't fired Elgin Baylor yet, why start now? Any way, based on the rest of the article, he's clearly only talking about MDsr.
Not good. The worst possible thing he could have said in response to a question about the owner's frustration. The equivalent on the grade school playground would be 'He started it!' Very mature. There are so many things wrong with this statement. 'I saw this coming?' What? Elton Brand's ruptured Achilles? And if indeed you saw that coming, and you feel the veto 'contributed to where we are now', does that mean that you were planning to trade Elton Brand? Or maybe it was Shaun Livingston. Of course, it is widely believed that it was MDsr himself who made Livingston 'untouchable' in Iverson trade talks. Maybe that isn't true - but I bet it is.
Worst of all, this sort of 'if they'd only done what I said everything would be better' line of thinking is wildly irresponsible. No one knows where the team would be had they listened. It's simplistic and disingenuous (not to mention counter productive) to decree that his recommendations were absolutely correct in hindsight. Furthermore, where's the individual responsibility? 'Well, we got nothing out of the 2005 draft and that's unfortunate. I really screwed the pooch on that Korolev pick.' Cowboy up man. Look in the mirror.
'Mr. Sterling? Yes, sir. I have reality on line one. Should I tell him you're in a meeting?'
'We can absolutely win this year.' Win what? Win a game? OK, true statement. Win enough games to make the playoffs? Let's do a little math exercise, shall we? The Clippers are 12-25. There are 45 games left. They would have to win 29 and lose only 16 to finish at 41-41. There are at least two things you have to know about that. 29-16 is a .644 winning percentage. The 05-06 Clippers, with a healthy Elton Brand, the best Clippers team in history, had a .573 winning percentage. Over and above that, there are 10 teams in the Western Conference over .500 at this point in the season. To make it to the eighth best winning percentage (i.e. to make the playoffs without counting on the other teams to stop winning), the Clippers would need to finish 48-34, requiring them to go 36-9 over these last 45 games. That's an even .800 winning percentage - better than any team in the Western Conference. And did I mention that Elton Brand isn't expected to play in at least a third of those games? The idea of making the playoffs requires the assumption that the Clippers will play significantly better than they ever have in the existence of the franchise. I suppose it might happen. And monkeys might fly out of my butt. Attaching words like 'absolutely' to this concept is just silly.
'Mr. Sterling? Yes, it's reality again. He says it's urgent. Still in a meeting? Yes sir, I'll tell him.'
As I said in a comment earlier today, sometimes an excuse is an excuse, and sometimes it's the actual explanation. I'm great with statements like 'We have to play our best and compete regardless of the circumstances,' but it's simply silly to imply that the season hasn't been scuttled by injuries. Maybe there are other problems as well. But the injuries were enough. 'What you have to do is bring in new players?' Actually, there are rules. You can't bring in new players who make more than the mid-level exception. And, as it happens, players who don't make more than the mid-level exception are not as good as Elton Brand, who makes the maximum, three times as much.
The 'everybody has injuries' thing is true - to a certain extent. Yes, every team suffers injuries at some point in their existence. And if they do, they don't win the NBA Championship. Find me an NBA Champion that experienced significant injuries during the playoffs. You can't do it. Find me an NBA Champion who's best player (hell, I'll be generous and open it up to one of their best three players) missed more than half the season. You can't do that either. Miami is the best example since the NBA/ABA merger of a team that overcame injuries and still won a title - and Shaq played 59 games that season. That's almost 3/4 of the regular season, and all the playoffs. And it's probably three times the number of games that Elton Brand will play this season.
So I repeat, yes, everybody has injuries. And when they have significant and severe injuries, they lose. Let's deal in truths here.
But I'm prepared to do whatever is necessary to win. - Donald T. Sterling
Well what do you know? He finally took that phone call.
A business reporter from the New York Times called me the other day to ask about Sterling. Why, you ask? He was trying to get some insights into the sometimes bizarre behavior of the Clippers' owner, and no one with any actual knowledge of the man would talk to him. So he figured he could at least start with a longtime Clippers fan. I found his decision to talk to me dubious at best, but I was only to happy to offer my totally uninformed opinion.
It's hard to explain the Sports Arena years. Earlier versions of the NBA's Collective Bargaining Agreement were less specific about piddling details like minimum payrolls. Still, it's hard to imagine the team could have been spending so little that they were making money with me and 12 other guys attending the games. According to Forbes Magazine, they lost $15M their last season in the Sports Arena, and $5M the season before that. I've never seen numbers from earlier.
From the minute they moved into Staples, they've been profitable - $10M the first season of 99-00, peaking at $22M in 03-04. The trend is moving back down now that their team payroll is moving up. Bear in mind, in 03-04 they were still losing. Their profits were $16M the season they made the playoffs, 05-06. (I've been told that a home playoff game is worth about $1M, but that doesn't ring true. They hosted 6 games that season, and their payroll hadn't really risen that much. If those playoff games were worth an extra $6M on the bottom line, then $16M doesn't seem like enough profit.)
After the move to Staples, DTS was laughing all the way to the bank. He had inventory in the shiny new building in town (so what if the seats were purple and the Clippers chose after the Lakers and Kings in scheduling dates?). He had luxury box revenue. He even had one of those, twice a decade 'young and talented with lots of exciting players oozing potential' Clipper rosters. Selling merchandise, sharing record TV revenues - and the new bonanza of being REWARDED with a distribution of luxury tax money simply for being cheap which he already was - the Clippers were one of the most profitable teams in the league. Lots of teams had much higher revenues - but in terms of return on investment, the Clippers were the tops.
When the team re-signed Corey Maggette and Elton Brand, it was a major sign of change. But we often forget that they DIDN'T re-sign Lamar Odom or Andre Miller or Michael Olowokandi or Eric Piatkowski that same summer. I know, the citizens of ClipsNation are by and large happy with the choices made, but I just want to point out that 2 out of 6 is not a very high percentage.
But in 05-06, when 'money spent' began to equate to 'playoff games', it seems like DTS got the fever. I've wondered if he would revert to league minimum payroll and perennial doormat given the major disappointments of the last two seasons. In the Simers column, at least he's saying that he won't. So that's good news.
But we all need to calm down. Injuries matter. The coach, in year 1 of a 4 year extension, gets a 'get out of jail free' card for their current record. That's just how it is. The team improved significantly in each of his first 3 seasons at the helm (and backslid last season, to be sure). The team has completely transformed on the defensive end in his tenure, which cannot be denied. When it looked like he was completely wrong about Chris Kaman last season, I would have been much more inclined to throw him under the bus. But hey, guess what? He was right about that guy! Let the poor slob get EB and K2 on the floor together before running him out of town.
It's not news that the Clippers are going to miss the playoffs. If everyone is upset about it, great, get to work on fixing it for the future.
But the future includes a lottery pick, not the playoffs, in 2008. That's reality on line one.
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Comments
Thanks
I like your MLK extra time theory. It also in part explains the reason why Simers seems to get through the whole article without being a smartass. "Look here--I can do a story on the Clippers, and get some real news without getting cute, since everybody always ignores them." Part of it is that I don't know that Simers even knows that the season is already over.
But what does it all mean? I think it might be wrong to get caught up in DTS' delusional statement that the team can still compete, and as you point out it's balanced out by his shocking, unexpected mea culpa, which was the thing that blew me away my first time through the story.
The grist in the mill seems to be, what's really going on with DTS and Dunleavy? What was Sterling trying to say, playoff potential or lack of it aside, and how do we explain Dunleavy's classic stubborn red-faced Irish guy reaction?
Yes, it would be nice if MD would cop to some of his failures, like the Korolev mistake. Even better, he might find a way to admit that his Maggette strategy last year didn't work out. And you're exactly right: it's nobody's fault that EB popped his achilles. Or that Liv's leg fell off.
But as close observers we know there are some question marks out there. I would like to see Tim Thomas at 500 minutes played, not over a thousand. Has Q Ross scored a point yet this year? I would have started Davis or Powell ahead of Thomas, but what about starting Thornton and maximizing his minutes, rather than Thomas'. Did it make sense to play Mobley (and never use Maggette at SG) when he was hurt and his productivity fell off a cliff?
Those are the questions that MD is responsible for, the flaws in the hold the fort strategy and where the season was lost. But it was a doomed campaign anyway.
I still don't know exactly what it all means.
by zhivclip on Jan 22, 2008 6:48 PM PST reply actions
A trap
Conflicting incentives. Bring up the youth and get a better draft pick and potentially get fired. Try to win and keep your well paying job and potentially lose the draft pick and experience for the youth.
Smart people don't create these sort of conflicts.
What to do, what to do...
We all wish we were as smart as you
DTS' Tone
I started by pointing out that all of this was frustration boiling over. I think there are a lot of things in that article that guys would like to take back and say differently. Maybe not "I'll play on Pluto before I play in LA" stupid, but regrettable. It happens.
The 'Al Thornton and Corey Maggette need a good coach' comments were snide (if they were not taken out of context, which I'm not so sure given that this is Simers). The MDsr quote was immature and ultimately pointless. But they can kiss and makeup.
I will point out that the Clippers looked pretty awful while Thomas was out of the lineup. The fact that Davis was already down and Williams was also out, leaving K2 and Powell as the only players over 6'8" was definitely part of it. But Thomas' minutes are a function of the situation. I might not play him as many (and they are going down some with Thornton's rise), but what are you going to do?
Which is the same question I asked Jax about the coaching situation. What is the alternative? How's Iavaroni working out in Memphis so far? Or even Adelman (a seasoned pro, the likes of which DTS would be unlikely to hire) in Houston? The vast majority of 'promoted assistants' don't pan out - and god forbid we should get Fratello, who makes MDsr look up tempo.
I like to think I see MDsr's flaws and his talents. But there's no question in my mind that making a change now would be premature. He's the guy that believed in K2 - he deserves a chance to see two potential all stars on the court together. If the team starts slow next year, call the Czar.
by Steve Perrin on Jan 22, 2008 9:42 PM PST up reply actions
This Clipper panic is about a year late
This year is going exactly as planned.
by mp on Jan 22, 2008 8:48 PM PST reply actions
That's my point too
We also had no idea if Livingston would walk again, let alone play. Of course we're a long way from 'relevant NBA point guard' still, but the medical prognosis is 'full recovery, good as new.' So that hurdle has been cleared at least.
Now that K2 looks underpaid not overpaid, Brand will be back to team with 'his brother'.
I feel MUCH better about the team in Jan. 08 than I did in Mar. 07. MUCH, MUCH better than in August (Post Achilles).
by Steve Perrin on Jan 22, 2008 9:29 PM PST up reply actions
I obviously don't share your optimism
Who would I hire? Not sure. However, the first thing I'd do is bring in an up and coming GM and go from there.
Weird
If you'd read my post
I didn't say that I know precisely what's wrong. These are simply my opinions.
What GM?
Who do you think would come to run the Clippers?
I'm not interested
DTS IMO needs to have someone other than Baylor to help counter the problems created by the coach he hired and to otherwise move forward. In a sense, DTS has made his own bed b/c he signed MDSr to a long term deal. However, DTS has the power to reverse course if he wants to pay.
We'll see what happens, but I suspect, given the egos involved, the lack of professionalism and the state of the team, that things are going to get worse before they get better.
If the half-solution you propose
If you can't even name someone who would be better, why should we respect your opinion?
If you could get Colangelo in here, obviously I would be for it. But you can't. All you can do is thrash about.
We know now that Sterling still won't spend. He wouldn't pay for Udrih. (Who is making 750k in Sacramento. Really, they wouldn't out bid that?)What GM would come into that situation?
Your solution is a non-starter, and therefore not much of a solution at all.
I wish I would afford myself your simple view of how the world works.
John R, why don't you just give it a rest
Frankly, I could care less if you respect my opinions. I would suggest, however, that you stop the ad hominem attacks on me personally because they are only making you look like a moron.
Finally, once again, you don't know what happened with the Udrih situation. I would reserve judgment there.
Agreed
And aside from the Ewing incident (and possibly the Cassell 8-second violation), MDSr did about as well as you could have expected him to do in the 05-06 season. It started with keeping the team competitive while Maggette was out, to selectively tanking for playoff positioning, to taking care of business and disposing of the Nuggs, and finally to giving the team a legitimate chance to win the Suns series (including the decision to bring Maggette off the bench). Which, FWIW, I felt the Clips would have won had the officials not favored the Suns in Game 3 - whatever, I'm just a homer.
But it wasn't all roses heading into 06-07. It was clear to me that MDSr would never have any offensive creativity. I don't need to see run-n-gun or 7-seconds-or-less. I do want to see better/faster player/ball movement, better spacing, and more screens/picks. I'm no offensive genius but even I could see our sets were too predictable. Too many isolations, and when the ball did get fed into the post there would usually be single-digits left on the shot clock. This lead to some disastrous forced shots and 24-second violations.
So, when last season began, and MDSr only had 1 year left on his contract...wasn't it a perfect situation to see how far he could take this team? Give him the season to prove himself. Well the Clips came out struggling. Then MDSr lobbied for Kaman's extension and got it. I'll admit it now, at the time I thought it was nuts, especially after Kaman being rendered completely worthless in the Suns series. Why extend him so early when he was struggling? If he showed improvement, pay a little more later in the season. If Kaman didn't improve, but you still felt like he was an integral part of the franchise, extend him for cheaper. I'm digressing, and I was obviously wrong about Kaman's contract, so let's move on...
Back to MDSr...I thought he took the team about as far as he could. Brand and Cassell played out of their minds that season, and the Clips would have been one-and-done had it not been for out-tanking the Grizz. They had no shot against either the Spurs or the Mavs. Well the Clips struggled out of the gate. Then, with inexplicable timing, DTS decided to extend MDSr. Why??? To show faith and trust in his general, and to save the season - perhaps. But the writing was on the wall, and DTS chose to ignore the cautionary red flags. The Clips couldn't score, and there was already turmoil in the locker room (Maggette obviously, but also the Singleton thing). You reap what you sow, Mr. Sterling.
So yes mp, I agree that last year was a huge disappointment. And yes, the time to act (or not act) was last season. Too late now. MDSr not only gets a pass this year, he should get a pat on the back for backing Kaman wholeheartedly - and being right. This season was a lost cause the instant Brand went down, all our optimism be damned. Blame MDSr all you guys want, but not even Pops can coach this Clips team to a .500 season.
What now? Kiss and make up. Play out the season, and play hard. The "benefit" of a lost season is you get to plan for next year way ahead of everyone else. Why spend it whining and pointing fingers? There is plenty of time for that if 08-09 goes to shit early.
I wish we could get submissions for "Fix the Clips" from EBSr and MDSr.
MDSr is not so bad
Ironically, during the 03-05 seasons, the Clips did play a more uptempo style with Marko and Livingston at the helm. Once Cassell entered the fray however, it was definitely more half-court and deliberate play-calling.
Looking forward, the best thing for the Clips is just to play out the season and let Sam and Corey come off the books. Corey has played 8 great years for the Clips, but its probably best for both sides to move on. He can make more money on the open market anyway. His productively could partially be filled by Thornton. They will get another lottery pick and with their free cap space, can make a run at a pretty good FA. QRoss is still a phenomenal defensive player who can be locked up on the cheap. With Brand and hopefully Livingston back, they can definitely make a run during the playoffs. Going into Panic Mode and losing Cap flexibility by making a short-sighted trade is definitely not a good long-term strategy.
Terry and Udrih
The deals were Maggette for Terry and signing Udrih as a free agent.
Anyone wish Udrih wasn't here? Anyone?
Reading the whole thing, despite his snippy comment yesterday, MDSr. wins this battle.
Once again, you completely miss the point
Should DTS have said what he said publicly? Probably not. However, you get a sense from reading this stuff that these issues aren't discussed privately as they should be and that there's no plan. As I said, the Clippers need a new, younger, professional GM to help guide them forward. MDSr's me or nothing approach ain't gonna get it done.
Turning to the substance of MDSr's comments that John R is myopically focusing on, this isn't just about who could have been traded, etc. There are a host of issues with MDSr - do we really need to list them all here - none of which he addressed, and all of which are relevant to any analysis of his job performance.
In regard to the trades mentioned, we don't really know what happened. We are hearing sound bites. We do know, however, that this coach thinks that he does no wrong and will take on anyone who criticizes him publicly, needlessly creating more problems for himself and the organization. As Sam said, it's DTS' team.
While we're on the subject
Mobley - 5 years - far too long
Tim Thomas - do I really need to get into this?
Relying on Cassell at the point
Not trading Shaun for AI - dumb (no not just in hindsight)
Korolev - his baby
The Maggette situation - come on
Refusing to admit any mistakes
Daily coaching debacles - the anemic offense, etc.
The Dan Ewing situation
Never admitting fault for anything
Udrih as savior?
Thornton over Stuckey?
I'll give him Kaman, but . . .
This is the guy DTS should allow to run the team on his own?
Not this old silly trope again
I still don't understand why you refuse to let African-Americans take responsibility for their actions.
You are a peculiar fellow Jax.
You'll say anything
My friend, you're fighting a battle against no one. Call me a racist. Call me stupid. Do whatever you want.
The problem, of course, is that no one cares (except you).
Enjoy
Whoa...
Besides, Jax is going to blame MDsr every chance he gets. Duh. Besides as well, Jax is essentially calling for EB1's ouster on this thread. How's that for having him take responsibility?
Play nice. Don't take things out of context.
by Steve Perrin on Jan 23, 2008 1:04 PM PST up reply actions
So...
There is A plan, but your champion, the man YOU are counting on to fix the situation, Donald Sterling, doesn't care. He only pops up when it suits him. MDSr and EB the First work on fixing the problem, then Andy and Donald veto things. It sounds to me like there is communication. It sounds a lot like, money first, basketball second. Same old song, but now Jax is a Sterling fan.
Sterling wants Maggette on the team at all costs. So the Clippers will be personified in Maggette until he retires. Sometimes interesting, sometimes inspiring, but sometimes tragic and always woefully incomplete.
Once again, I wish I could afford myself your simple worldview.
Baylor passively confirmed Dunleavy is telling the truth. $terling vetoed them, making the team worse. Now you go beg your Champion Sterling to make the team better. Good luck.
Reality check
Of course DTS has been there. He handed the reigns over to EB and MDSr. They made some bad decisions (and had some bad luck). Not surprisingly, DTS is not happy.
When the boss criticizes the employee, the employee has a choice. If the employee chooses to publicly criticize management, the employee might get fired. That's the way of the world, my friend.
You can continue to denigrate me all you want to, but as I noted above, it's only making you look like a moron.
I dont deal with him
He is your champion. You want him to fix the team.
That makes you the moron.
Escalation
Now we know that the deals were Terry for Maggette, and signing Udrih.
I think it's important to look at the sequence, putting together a timeline. And that timeline is not going to turn backwards, so the mistakes are in the past.
In summer 06, after going to the playoffs, Sterling had a lot of confidence in Dunleavy, and was calling him the General. The Clips signed Cassell. And then Sterling stretched and took a risk and extended Kaman at real money.
That gets us to the 06-07 season. Two important things happened: Kaman looked like a stiff, and Dunleavy chose to start Ross over Maggette. It's important to remember that the Clips were coming off a playoff run and had no major injuries. Dunleavy spent his capital on two major decisions: starting Ross, and signing Kaman. By midseason the Clips were struggling and in disarray. Dunleavy finally changed course, too late, and put Maggette in the starting lineup, and team improved.
At this point Sterling's attitude wasn't far away from that of the average fan. It was obvious to just about everyone that the coach should at least try starting Maggette, to see if that would improve the team's performance. When Dunleavy finally relented and did it, it worked. And then the Clips were hit with a cruel twist of fate, with Liv's injury.
From that point of view, which I happen to share with Sterling, Dunleavy had lost a significant amount of credibility. It probably didn't help that Korolev was a washout by this time and we never even had a chance to see him play.
And during that period, Dunleavy returns with a couple of proposed deals. The first is Jason Terry for Maggette. With Livingston injured, this looks like it might work very well, as Terry is a tweener, scorer. and good defender. But it raises the question: who plays SF? Dunleavy's candidates must have been Tim Thomas, QRoss and rookie Al Thornton--I can't think of anybody else. Only later did he find Ruben Patterson, after Brand's injury. And Patterson played hard, but he was a train wreck.
That leads us to speculate: why did Sterling nix the deal? Is it that he didn't want to go into the season with Thomas or Ross as a starter? Or does he just have blind faith in Maggette? It's important to remember that Maggette had an unproven value at this point--going into the season, I for one thought he would thrive by being unleashed, and he would average 22-25 ppg.
Then Brand gets hurt. The Clippers would have been even worse with a Terry for Maggette deal, if it was raised at this point. Thomas became the starting PF, for good or ill.
With regards to signing Udrih, we have to assume that it came after the pursuit of Steve Francis. Udrih is a pretty nice piece, but it's hard to believe he would have changed the outcome this year. And the plan is even more unclear if you assume that Dunleavy's solution was to add both Terry and Udrih, and subtract Maggette. The Clips would have been able to withstand injuries to Cassell and Mobley a bit better, but you're still talking about Thomas and Ross or Patterson as starters and playing big minutes.
So I for one can see how Sterling said no, when Dunleavy may well have been proposing to put QRoss back into the starting lineup as his solution. And some of Sterling's current frustration may be due to the fact that Ross is back as a starter once again.
Dunleavy's argument that his plan would have worked seems fairly dubious, especially given the injury to Brand. But the good news is that the Kaman deal has worked out very well. So some of Dunleavy's credibility has been restored. Having Maggette instead of Jason Terry at this point seems to be a wash at first glance.
So that's a start. The chance to go to the playoffs may be gone, but it's still possible that K2-Brand-Maggs-Mobley-Liv might be healthy and on the court together for a stretch of games this season, and we can then see how that team fares, with MD still in place as coach.
by zhivclip on Jan 23, 2008 11:03 AM PST reply actions
This makes sense assuming Corey is staying
Bad deals for good players...
The Clippers offered Corey a 3 year extension this summer. That would have been about right.
But if he opts out and the Clippers lose him for nothing, they won't lose him for nothing. They get to keep the money.
The trade is intriguing... but far from a no-brainer.
by Steve Perrin on Jan 23, 2008 12:39 PM PST up reply actions

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