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Pistons 103 - Clippers 73

In recent years, no team has beaten the Clippers more consistently and more soundly than the Detroit Pistons.  They are now 0-10 against the Pistons in the five years since MDsr became the coach.  In fact, they have lost 11 in row.  The last time the Clippers beat Detroit was November 2002, and they were led by 19 points and 20 rebounds from Michael Olowokandi (quite a game from the Kandi Man) and rookie Tayshaun Prince got a DNP-CD.  Since then, it's gotten ugly.

Their 30 point win tonight goes with a 24 point win earlier in the season, and two 18 point wins last year.  And frankly, those games last year weren't nearly that close.  

Detroit doesn't dominate the rest of the league this way.  Nor are the Clippers this inept against other teams.  But the Pistons just do whatever they want against the Clippers.  It's pretty depressing to watch, quite frankly.

Tonight was just more of the same.  Chris Kaman was back in the lineup, and grabbed 14 rebounds.  But he looked VERY shaky on offense, where he was just 5 for 17 with at least half of his dozen misses of the really ugly variety.  The fact that Rasheed Wallace is a very good defender, and also apparently allowed to hit players once or twice before any foul is called, did not help Kaman.  (Rasheed went ballistic in the first half when the refs called him for a foul on Al Thornton, and he had a legitimate beef.  I mean, he only hit Thornton once.  All we ask for is consistency - if Sheed is allowed to hit players without it being called a foul, then he should be allowed to do it all the time.)

But the worst thing about losing to the Pistons is the Detroit fans.  One of the dirty secrets of Clipper ticket sales is that their attendance figures are driven into acceptable NBA levels by transplant fans from across the country.  Against Eastern Conference teams with broad support like the Celtics and Pistons, the issue is magnified.  Not only do Detroit fans buy up all the single tickets available for the game (of course, it's easier to see the Pistons against the Clippers than against the Lakers) - they also buy tickets on StubHub, etc. from season ticket purchasers looking to make some of their money back on the highest demand games.  I went to the Detroit game last season, and while I wouldn't say there were more Pistons fans than Clippers fans, they were certainly louder, and infinitely more obnoxious.  Even watching on TV tonight, the roar of 'SHEED' when Wallace touched the ball was unmistakable.  They even seemed to know all of the Palace traditions - I mean, they didn't spontaneously decide to cheer when Walter Herrmann touched the ball, did they?

I'm really glad we don't have to see those guys again for awhile.

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good team vs. bad team
Last night was just a simple case of a good team toying with a bad team and eventually picking the bad team apart.  The game was so bad that even the Pistons' scrubs beat the Clippers' scrubs terribly.  and as for the fan support...don't ask.  

by laclipperfan42 on Mar 2, 2008 9:40 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Scrubs vs. Scrubs
Yes, the Pistons scrubs destroyed the Clippers scrubs.  But as badly as injuries hurt the top of your lineup, they hit the bottom harder.  The Pistons 12th man has an Olympic gold medal and a world championship (the real kind, not the NBA kind).  The Clippers brought in two guys who were in the NBDL last week.  With 5 guys out (all either the first or second player on the depth chart at their position), the Clippers literally played 5 guys that shouldn't even be on the active list, including their starting power forward.

by Steve Perrin on Mar 2, 2008 10:41 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Another Clipper Sunday morning
Heisler--with a little Simers paragraph too--goes after Sterling this morning, breaking the news that DTS still hasn't talked to Dunleavy since the December fracas.  And apparently this is the reason why the Memphis deal for Mike Miller didn't go down, although the details of that are unclear.  No mention of how the Cassell deal somehow managed to happen in the same dysfunctional climate.  One of them, Simers I think, floats the idea that it would benefit DTS to fire Dunleavy now, because he could get another coaching job, which would mitigate DTS paying him.  But why do I feel like we'd be hearing Dunleavy on ESPN or TNT for the next three years, before he goes to work for another franchise?

Of course DTS and the Clips are a big fat pinata.  We all know that.  And I'm not really going to be on the side of DTS.  If he's not talking to Dunleavy, that's ridiculous.  But there are two sides to every story.

When your team is slogging through a horrendous season, one of the things you look forward to is a high first round pick.  Call it a Saviour Syndrome.  Look at Boston last year, whose fans, led by Simmons, were dying to get Kevin Durant.  Would they have been happy to get a solid, established, second-tier player on their roster like Mike Miller before the deadline in exchange for their pick?

On top of that, you have Memphis giving the Lakers Gasol for... what was that again?  What did the Lakers give up?  So when Memphis asks for a very high pick in exchange for a player who is vastly inferior to Gasol, it's not unreasonable to pause.  If the Grizzlies had thrown Crittenden into the trade (or maybe Lowery--I don't know him very well), that would cover the bases a little better and would be hard to turn down.

But instead we get the analysis that DTS is a doofus and giving away the pick was a no-brainer.  Draft picks take time to develop--but there's no discussion of Al Thornton.  Or how, with the emergence of Thornton, the great play of Maggette, and if Mobley could get healthy it's not clear that Miller is so obviously the answer.  Maybe yes, maybe no.  But with Mobley, Livingston, and Brevin Knight on the roster they would have a little time for a really great player to develop.  And at 5-8 they might stumble onto a Brandon Roy or a Kirk Hinrich.  There are probably some other names that I'm leaving out.  But OJ Mayo looked pretty good yesterday (as did James Harden).  Would you rather have Mayo or Miller?  How would Miller have affected the salary issues? And we get to watch Bayless today (plus a couple of Bruins I won't mention).

My anti-fondest Clipper-Pistons memory was when one of my Clipper favorites, Big Z (a former Piston) was finally healthy and filling in for an injured Kaman I think.  This might have been right after Z's big 18 rebound game against the Warriors off the bench.  (Olowokancer had a 20 rebound game?!--give that guy $65 million!)  And then Sheed just mugged Z somehow, I don't remember exactly, and Z was out of commission for a while.  But it was at one of those times when Z seemed like a better starter than the slow-developing Kaman, and Piston thuggery took away his shot.

It was great to see Kaman out there.  He looked good for about 5 minutes, and then his offense fluttered away.  But it's a different team, obviously, with a man in the middle.  A whole lot of Josh Powell--I like him, but this is probably too strong a dose.  In a meaningless 5 minutes Fazekas did not look very encouraging, I must say, and Barrett doesn't seem like he's going to do anything.  But this was the Pistons, I guess.  
     

by zhivclip on Mar 2, 2008 9:43 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Some interesting tidbits
First, Mike Miller is simply not the answer.  The Clips need to get younger, not take on more salary from players who are good but are likely close to the downside of their careers.  I like Mike, but he's not a good defender, not that quick and doesn't really solve their problems long term.  

Second, I was also fond of Z who was a fantastic European player.  Unfortunately, he was too old by the time he got here to do too much for us.  

Third, as I've said since before the season started, the Clippers need to keep losing and focus on the draft.  Maybe dump MDSr.  On that point, not sure that if he works as an analyst that wouldn't reduce the sums owed by Sterling.  And again, Sterling may have some viable legal arguments here based on MDSr's conduct.  

by Jax on Mar 2, 2008 10:39 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I've read the articles
I don't think that it was a mistake not to trade the No. 1 for Mike Miller this year.  

by Jax on Mar 2, 2008 10:52 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The fun part
Is now we get to see if you are right.  Luckily, its not actually your fault if they don't get a Mike Miller caliber player with the pick.  Because that's what we are talking about right?  Turning Sam Cassell (nothing) and the pick into Mike Miller.  So to not do the trade and to make it worthwhile, they need to draft a player who will contribute to the level Mike Miller would have and do it within the timeframe of Elton Brand and Corey Maggette's prime.

That's a tall order.

I have to say, its kinda funny to me to see the way in the past you have thrashed the Clippers use of draft picks, but you are entirely certain that this year they will do exceedingly well with it.

Mike Miller is a year younger than both 50 and 42.  Seems like have a team of guys all around the same age is a good idea.

Coaches contracts aren't like players contracts.  If MDSr has guaranteed money in that contract, he'll get paid by DTS.  And getting signed by another team or by a network does nothing to mitigate that.

by John R on Mar 2, 2008 1:06 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Don't forget the money
You yourself, John, have made the point that if EB were to walk there'd be money to sign a replacement.  Miller is making $19M over the next two seasons, while the rookie will make a fraction of that.  There's little question that Miller will be better in the immediate than the rookie - but I don't think that's the only consideration.

You'll say that it requires bold moves.  You'll say that they should be loading up to win now, while Brand is in his prime.  I actually agree - they should have made the trade.  

But it's not Miller productivity > rookie productivity, ergo trade.  The formula is more complex.

by Steve Perrin on Mar 2, 2008 4:27 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He just wants to argue
Miller's out right now with back spasms.  He's getting old.  As I've said, the Clippers need to get younger.  No, I don't think that they need to get a Miller type player, although that would be nice.  The guy makes $10 M per year and they can do better at that price given the current roster and where they're likely going.  

by Jax on Mar 2, 2008 9:36 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You're missing the point
There is no other "at that price".  There is no other chance now to get a player "at that price" now that Cassell's contract is gone.  There is only the mid-level and if it means the luxury tax I bet the Clippers don't use it.

All options are dead.  This draft pick now has to Fix the Clippers single-handedly.

by John R on Mar 3, 2008 9:36 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The formula is more complex.
Is it?  I mean, how so?

With Miller or not, there is no money to sign another player.  In a perfect world they could use the draft pick and the mid-level, but I don't think anyone believes DTS is going to go into luxury tax land.  I saw someone else use the term "Miller money", but there is no Miller money.  Even if Corey comes off the books, with Shaun still to sign, a rookie and the mid-level hold, there is really no "Corey money".  The Clippers get one more guy for serious NBA cash and thats it.

So they get one more player, either Miller or this rookie.  I say get the one that will be most productive over the next 4 years.

There is some chance that the Clippers use the 6th pick very well AND make excellent use of the mid-level and get a guy like Childress.  But to me, the chances of that are much, much lower than Miller having a productive 4 years.

by John R on Mar 3, 2008 9:34 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Haven't done all the math, but....
Here's how it matters.  It matters if they lose Brand.

If you add Miller, and then lose Brand, Miller's contract precludes a max offer to another free agent.  I don't expect them to lose Brand this season, but it could definitely happen after (or even during) next season.  With Miller scheduled to make $9.8M, the 2009 team becomes Kaman, Thomas, Miller, Mobley, etc. with no chance to add anything but draft picks and MLE players at best.

Not that they'll necessarily lose Brand.  Not that they should not have made the trade (I think they should have).  But salary almost always matters - your plan A may not be different, but plans B and C could be a big problem.

by Steve Perrin on Mar 3, 2008 10:13 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ok
If they lose EB its definitely a problem.  If EB stays for next year and doesn't re-up, the team would have a gaping hole at the PF and super awesome player and guy positions.  No question.

BUT then again, the VERY NEXT YEAR Miller's contract conveniently expires at the same time at Mobley's and Thomas'.  So as '10 is coming to a close, the Clippers have 3 expiring contracts, two in the 10mil range and one in the 7mil range to trade individually or in combination or to let expire and make a run at their free agent then.

They add those guys to their now young but veteran core of Kaman, Thornton and Livingston.

Miller was win-win-win-win-win, anyway it goes.

by John R on Mar 3, 2008 11:08 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

we have no idea how much they talked before DEC
so who knows if this is a problem.  But NO WAY does he fire MDSr.  It is hard to lay all of the problems at his feet right now.  This team has been plagued by injury.  

MDSr. has stuck by Kaman and Livingston as part of the young nucleus.  Kaman has proven a good decision.  Livingston has not had a chance, but he is still quite young.  EB is pushing 30, but power forwards have a long shelf life.  See Malone/Barkley/Oakley/PJ Brown, etc.  

Now you have a legit wing player/scorer in Thornton, who will be one of those players who can take over a game.  And there is also Maggette who can make butter out of cream with his ability to get to the line and score on few shots.  

It would have been nice is Korolev had panned out, or the team had used that lotto pick more wisely.  Their best picks have been Kaman and Thronton, both who fell into their laps.  The gambles were Livingston and Korolev.  When presented with options, the team does not draft well, which is why trading the pick for Miller wouldn't have been a terrible idea.  But...if the Clips end up with a top 3 pick, there is a lot of talent coming out.

The key will be who plays PG for this team.  But no way does The Donald pay MDSr. and another coach at the same time.  He will at least finish this contract, or get within a year of it.  

by mp on Mar 2, 2008 11:21 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Kaman
I wouldn't say Kaman fell into their lap.  Of the player's drafted ahead of him, 4 out of 5 are now all stars/superstars.  It was a deep draft, and they did well at 6.  For a time it looked like Hinrich and Josh Howard were significantly better.  But you can now argue that they did as well as they could have with that pick, which is all you can ask for.  He was far from a consensus pick there, and was a risk.

by Steve Perrin on Mar 2, 2008 11:42 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

by falling into their laps, I mean
that they were not going to go wrong with that pick, unless they took Darko.  Kaman was definitely projected lottery.  Many of the players after Kaman have worked out as well.  

My point is that only in two of the deep drafts in memory do the Clippers seem to do well.  

by mp on Mar 2, 2008 9:51 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well
There are at least 6 or 7 great players coming out

And DTS may be able to figure out a way out of that contract.  Have faith in him.

by Jax on Mar 2, 2008 12:16 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

my Sixers coming up next
the situation is much different than it was before the game in Philly... Sixers are surging and pumped up after the big W in Phoenix, by far our best game of the year

if it makes you guys feel better, I think Sixers lost like 135 of the last 137 games with the Pistons, with the 2 win coming in meaningless games at the end of the year

btw I really enjoy reading this blog, Steve and you guys deserve a better team definitely. Let's hope for next year, with a top pick

by Ricky Sixers4guidos on Mar 2, 2008 2:29 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yet another reason to dislike KB
his showing up when teammates make bad defensive plays...

by Lawler's Law on Mar 2, 2008 3:18 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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